The Pain We Choose Instead

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:00]:
Anyway, it's choices. I think the point is, is that we don't even think about it as being a choice. Which you were talking about earlier. You know, we're just doing something. We're not actually thinking about what we're doing. We're not questioning ourselves.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:16]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:17]:
What is this for me? What am I choosing right now.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:27]:
Anyway?

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:28]:
What are you smiling about?

Walker Bird [00:00:29]:
Just learning. Yeah, Yeah, I still. I know I've said it multiple times. I choose to have the courage to choose the pain.

Walker Bird [00:00:43]:
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life. Each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:11]:
Well, hello.

Walker Bird [00:01:13]:
Hello.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:17]:
How are you?

Walker Bird [00:01:18]:
Tired.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:22]:
I'm tired.

Walker Bird [00:01:23]:
Up getting cranky.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:28]:
Maybe we need to come up with a different topic to talk about tonight.

Walker Bird [00:01:32]:
No, I don't think so. I think it'll be fascinating. Let's do this. I'm ready.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:36]:
Okay.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:36]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:36]:
Okay.

Walker Bird [00:01:38]:
No, I don't always want to be complaining when we come on the show either, you know, I just. But I just usually near the end of the day and I'm usually tired or beat or whatever.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:49]:
Yeah. Well, you've been up since 4 this morning.

Walker Bird [00:01:51]:
I've been at. Yeah, I've been up since 1:30, traveling back from Oregon. But in any event, I'm good.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:59]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:02:00]:
Ready to go. Interested in our topic? But before we get into that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:04]:
Yes. Oh yeah. So you just wanted to announce that our free mini course, which is about healthy relationship that we created into a seven page PDF, is available on our website. Just go in and in your email address and it will get sent to you. So anyway, we're excited about it. Anything you want to say about it?

Walker Bird [00:02:30]:
Yeah, just five basic skills. It's based on our 10 essential skills course, the lengthy course. But we wanted to give something away for free so people could get the benefits of starting that conversation. The interior conversation and otherwise of how you can interact with others in a stronger, more beneficial way. Maybe.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:52]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:52]:
We all need practice. We all need support.

Walker Bird [00:02:54]:
Absolutely.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:55]:
We all need suggestions. All of us. Yeah, all of us.

Walker Bird [00:02:58]:
Anyway, it's our gift to you. We hope you'll download it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:00]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:01]:
Thank you. Okay, so topic today. So I had someone say to me that they would rather be in pain than be uncomfortable. And that struck me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:20]:
So.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:20]:
Interesting. So what comes up for you?

Walker Bird [00:03:25]:
Well, what kind of pain are we talking about.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:27]:
Well, for this particular person, they were talking about physical pain, but of course, in my mind I went through the physical pain, but also, you know, the emotional pain, mental pain. I went, you know, all the routes. So we can go all the routes too. So while this wasn't Luke specifically, it would be an interesting conversation to have with Luke, who had a significant injury when he was in high school and his recovery took quite a while. I don't know what his opinion would be about the amount of pain he was in versus the uncomfortableness he was in. My guess is the pain came and went, you know, whether he had medication or didn't have medication, if he was moving or not moving, versus the constant of the uncomfortableness, which I believe is what my. The person that mentioned it to me was referencing. Yeah, like the pain is going to.

Theresa Hubbard [00:04:32]:
I know the pain is going to end. Is the uncomfortableness going to end?

Walker Bird [00:04:37]:
Sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:04:38]:
Okay, so what are you thinking?

Walker Bird [00:04:41]:
Well, I think time matters. Definitely.

Theresa Hubbard [00:04:43]:
Like how long?

Theresa Hubbard [00:04:44]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:04:45]:
Okay.

Walker Bird [00:04:49]:
Both short duration of intense pain, like a 10, you know it's going to end versus a lifetime of. Yeah, okay.

Theresa Hubbard [00:05:00]:
Yeah. Let's say it's now if you know.

Walker Bird [00:05:02]:
It's going to end, but if you don't know it's going to end. I would choose the discomfort in that moment. Promise.

Theresa Hubbard [00:05:10]:
Yeah, yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:05:13]:
So the discomfort, you mean the pain or the uncomfortableness?

Walker Bird [00:05:17]:
Well, if you don't know that the intense pain, like the 10 out of 10 is going to end, I would choose. I'd rather have discomfort for years than this pain for five more minutes. I mean, but if I don't know that, if I know it's only five more minutes, it's a lot easier to say, I'd rather just go through this and have it over with than live with a lifetime of discomfort. And discomfort can be on a whole, you know, spectrum, just like so many things, relationship wise. It's interesting though, from an emotional standpoint. Well, it just struck me. I'm sitting there thinking about the, you know, they talk about the frog that you're cooking and you put them in lukewarm water and then it warms up until they're boiled.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:04]:
Right, right.

Walker Bird [00:06:05]:
That to me is discomfort. And that to me is also similar to the way that I've been in suffering through emotional pain in relationship in the past and my choice and my, you know, my issues included. I'm not blaming. I'm just saying I think that a lot of us can choose to just allow the discomfort to continue and when it would be so much Better for us to, like, this person you're talking about, have the pain. Because the pain might be temporal and it might make you change. You didn't see that one coming, did you know?

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:53]:
But now I'm thinking all kinds of things. Right. I mean, I'm just thinking. Thinking about emotionally. It's like we would rather choose the pain.

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:19]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:21]:
Well, it's okay. It'll be over. It'll be fine tomorrow.

Walker Bird [00:07:24]:
Pull the freaking band aid.

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:25]:
Right, right, right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:27]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:28]:
Interesting.

Walker Bird [00:07:33]:
And yet a lot of times we choose the discomfort or we default and not even sure it's choice. Right? It is choice, but it's not. We default to discomfort.

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:43]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:44]:
Not a full level of awareness. Right, right. Like some level of awareness we have.

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:51]:
Hmm. Yeah, that's. So. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:59]:
I'll try again tomorrow. It'll be different tomorrow. Maybe if I do this, it'll be different or maybe if I do that, it'll be different. Interesting. Okay, so what are you thinking?

Walker Bird [00:08:16]:
I'm pleased that I made you think.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:20]:
Curve.

Walker Bird [00:08:22]:
I think you make me think I do. But you weren't expecting that thought process, so I like that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:27]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:29]:
Now I'm just thinking about. Okay, let's say that you have a friend that comes to you and you have known them for a long time and they have struggled with a relationship. It doesn't have to be a partner. It can be, you know, a sibling or a friend that they just constantly have struggled with. What do you imagine is happening for them with the pain part that's coming with the distress that they're experiencing versus, like, the uncomfortableness of being clear or setting boundaries or even ending the relationship? Should that be their choice, do you think? What do you think is pain and what do you think is uncomfortable? I guess I was thinking of pain as being more like a short duration and uncomfortableness being chronic. Chronic. Yeah. Because I'm thinking even, like, you know, so many people struggle in their relationships, but the uncomfortableness of learning how to do it differently or the uncomfortableness of leaving or the uncomfortableness of, you know, even your partner being uncomfortable because you're setting boundaries.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:13]:
Different, whatever. Like, I'm just trying to imagine, you know, where do you think we get stuck? Like, when you're sitting with that person, do you think they're struggling more with pain or uncomfortableness?

Walker Bird [00:10:32]:
I. Well, it may be both.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:37]:
Okay.

Walker Bird [00:10:39]:
There may be, you know, an immediate, extremely painful event that's happened.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:44]:
Sure.

Walker Bird [00:10:46]:
And maybe came out of the blue. And a lot of times there's. That is the result of living in discomfort for and not making. Not. Not choosing to have the pain or choosing not to have the pain or avoiding. Maybe just avoiding the pain. Pain and living with the discomfort. Okay.

Walker Bird [00:11:09]:
And then if you put it back in physical terms, too, I had this thought is we talked about somebody that. That I worked with, and it was, you know, like a chronic limb condition, daily pain, but not searing all the time, that sort of thing. And the question, you know, and it was just. We were. You and I were kicking that back and forth, and it just came up between us. You know, I wonder if it would be better to just take it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:11:48]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:11:49]:
Which seemed so extreme, but at the same time, you know, and so I would say that discomfort can be high on the scale, but it's not to the same degree as what I would call pain. For me, pain is like a 10. Anyway, we're swimming in this. But it is a fascinating discussion.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:14]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:12:15]:
And I think based on looking at that person that you and I were talking about, you know, I'm wondering if that's what your. This person you were talking to was essentially saying.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:28]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:29]:
Will the uncomfortableness or what you're calling discomfort, will that ever end?

Walker Bird [00:12:35]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:36]:
Right. Will it ever end?

Walker Bird [00:12:37]:
No way out.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:38]:
Will I be in this. This level of pain, whatever it is.

Walker Bird [00:12:42]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:43]:
For the rest of my life?

Walker Bird [00:12:47]:
This specter of that over you, just hanging over you.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:51]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:52]:
As opposed to the pain that comes from, you know, this particular person you're speaking about, or even the one that I was referencing, the. The intense pain of, let's say, a particular type of movement. But they know that is going to recede, whereas the uncomfortableness of it never does.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:15]:
Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:19]:
So that's the physical part. And again, these are. You know, obviously when we have these conversations, it's not like we have an answer.

Walker Bird [00:13:25]:
No.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:26]:
We're just.

Walker Bird [00:13:28]:
If anybody has the answer out there, could you comment? Please put it in the comments.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:32]:
Please put it in the comments. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:34]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:13:37]:
And I mean, the answer is in.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:39]:
All caps, but we'll take your suggestions.

Walker Bird [00:13:42]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:42]:
No. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:13:44]:
No, I. Cash, I. You know, it comes for me when I had the gallbladder surgery last December, and I mean, it was. That pain was horrible.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:56]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:13:57]:
And so the thought crossed my mind, too. When you asked the question originally, it was like, if I didn't know, you know, you're just. It was so bad.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:09]:
It was so bad that.

Walker Bird [00:14:13]:
You know, I was crawling out of my skin.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:15]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:14:16]:
You know, literally, just, somebody please just knock me out.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:21]:
Right. And vomiting. You were in so much pain.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:23]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:14:25]:
And if I was in that scenario, and I didn't know that that was going to end. I would say I'll take the lifetime discomfort, please.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:37]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:14:40]:
I would. I might regret the choice.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:43]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:45]:
Okay.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:45]:
Good.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:46]:
Awareness.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:47]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Walker Bird [00:14:51]:
So. But if it. If it is a finite time frame for pain, I mean, I guess that's the thing emotionally too. We don't know that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:01]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:15:01]:
When we're in it, you don't know that if I pull the band aid or make the decision or do the hard thing or walk away from the relationship or whatever it is, Whatever. Right. You know, you don't know in the middle of that that it's going to end.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:21]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:15:21]:
And I think a lot of times it may seem like it never will.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:24]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:15:25]:
Like the first breakups we were talking about.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:28]:
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:31]:
Yes.

Walker Bird [00:15:31]:
Where you're so devastated, so self. You know, your self worth is so wrapped up and in being accepted by that person, you know, wanted by that person, all those things, it could seem like that's never going to end. But what I. I guess what I would say is pain of that degree typically does end.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:55]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:56]:
Hold on a second. Excuse me, everybody.

Walker Bird [00:16:01]:
Oh, no.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:02]:
Somebody's microphone wasn't turned up all the way. He's gonna get picked up on mine some. But it's gonna be better now. Sorry, baba. Ah, the reality of the podcast studio.

Walker Bird [00:16:17]:
Oh, well, I think they fixed it for us before we're good to go.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:20]:
I think so.

Walker Bird [00:16:22]:
Anyway. I. I just. It's. It's interesting. It's easy to say when you're in the midst of all that pain. You can't even think straight. To be.

Walker Bird [00:16:32]:
To make it to. To have that choice presented to you. But if the choice was presented, I might choose the discomfort and just to make it stop. And just think, if you do that in a relationship, and I think we do.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:48]:
Tell us more.

Walker Bird [00:16:50]:
You're to that point where you've had enough of this shit and I'm done.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:53]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:16:55]:
And then, you know. Oh, baby, I didn't really mean that. You know, whatever. You get love bombed or I'm just making scenarios up. But I'm serious, you know, it's just like. And then all of a sudden you start clawing back to the. You know, so you're going back and poof.

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:19]:
Anyway, I don't know.

Walker Bird [00:17:20]:
So complicated.

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:22]:
We are complicated.

Walker Bird [00:17:23]:
So what do you think? You've got lots of thoughts going on. I could see it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:26]:
Yeah, there is lots of thoughts. I think, you know, one of the questions I want to ask, you know, whoever's listening Is asking yourself the question, is there something. Well, do you have a preference of pain or uncomfortableness? Man, I mean, it's just so interesting. The question. I think I was trained to be uncomfortable unintentionally. I believe when I think about prior relationships, I was always adapting myself, thinking that if I did that, that was going to take the pain away. And I think that I adapted and I was willing to be uncomfortable, so the significance of the pain was less. I believe that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:12]:
That I chose to be uncomfortable so that I didn't have to suffer so much pain.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:25]:
What I.

Walker Bird [00:19:29]:
That quote.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:31]:
What quote?

Walker Bird [00:19:32]:
The only way out is through. Is what came to mind when you said that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:36]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:19:42]:
Have you ever felt confused or overwhelmed in relationships? Teresa and I have come up with a free mini course that we think will really help you out with a lot of the common relationship experiences so that you can improve your communication skills with all of the people in your life and. And really make a change for the better.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:58]:
Yeah, we really believe that everybody deserves the opportunity to learn healthy relationship skills so that we can get through life having a good, healthy relationship experience. So click the link, put your email in, you'll get the PDF, spend a few hours working on it, and please let us know what your experience is. We know it will benefit you in some way.

Theresa Hubbard [00:20:21]:
Thanks.

Walker Bird [00:20:22]:
Thank you.

Theresa Hubbard [00:20:24]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:20:25]:
Okay.

Walker Bird [00:20:25]:
I thought that one's pretty good.

Theresa Hubbard [00:20:26]:
Okay, sounds good.

Theresa Hubbard [00:20:28]:
Okay, check, check.

Theresa Hubbard [00:20:39]:
I don't know how uncomfortable we like being. I mean, I think about, like, from a substance perspective or, you know, whether that's, you know, drugs or alcohol or social media or whatever. I mean, it can be so many things. What are we trying to take away? The pain, the uncomfortableness. Does using a substance or scrolling on our phone for hours, does it take the pain away? Does it take uncomfortableness away? What are we trying to not feel? And I'm again not saying there's an answer. I'm just wondering what people are experiencing. The answer could absolutely be different for everyone. But do we even think about it? What am I trying to not feel? Pain, discomfort, uncomfortableness.

Theresa Hubbard [00:21:58]:
And to me, I think about it from like a body perspective, not necessarily like an emotional perspective right at the moment. Because in relationship and distress, we can have body pain too, right?

Theresa Hubbard [00:22:17]:
Yes. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:22:21]:
It's not all mental and emotional. What's happening for you?

Walker Bird [00:22:29]:
Oh, just the issues in the tissues.

Theresa Hubbard [00:22:32]:
So, sure. What our body's holding.

Walker Bird [00:22:35]:
Sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:22:36]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:22:47]:
No, I mean, what I was hoping for was the courage to. Because what I believe is that the pain. Pain. And when we're in the midst of it, we may claw back for discomfort because it's familiar and it's less, even though we suffer much longer. But when the pain is that bad, it seems like you don't have any perspective that it will ever end. And so what I was hoping for is. Is the courage to choose the pain. No, literally, like, if you take it to that physical extreme, when that was going on in the however many hours we were in the hallway at the hospital for the gallbladder, going through that pain could have meant dying, I suppose, you know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:57]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:23:58]:
But to be honest, there were moments when I was doing that that I just. Just as soon happen. And I know that's. I don't know. I feel bad for even saying such a thing, but it's true. And of course, it's easy to say that, too, because if I got that result, I might not like that either. It's such a slippery slope, babe. I still think I.

Walker Bird [00:24:25]:
I still think that I am hoping for the courage to choose the pain.

Theresa Hubbard [00:24:32]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:24:33]:
Interesting.

Theresa Hubbard [00:24:35]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:24:37]:
Who knew this is where the conversation would go? Yeah, well, that's what the person that said it to me chose to the pain over the uncomfortableness.

Theresa Hubbard [00:24:55]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:24:56]:
And the avoidance piece you raised about substance abuse, et cetera, because, you know, I used alcohol. I think it's both.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:03]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:04]:
Say more.

Walker Bird [00:25:05]:
Well, it's both. I mean, it could be an acute, you know, a significant pain event, some huge blowout or a disappointment, or somebody was cheating on you. Whatever it may be, is that moment when you're just deep in it. You might do that. But I also think to avoid the chronic discomfort, but it doesn't, you know, you avoid it for a while, sort of, and it just makes it worse.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:32]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:25:35]:
You know, in so many ways. But in any event, because you were saying, well, I wonder if they're avoiding pain or discomfort, and I just. Voiding all of it. At least I was.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:47]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:25:49]:
Avoiding life.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:51]:
Just trying to not feel, period.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:56]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:25:57]:
And not even. Not even a conscious thought process on what am I doing.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:04]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:06]:
Upon reflection, if you go back.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:09]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:11]:
What are you. What are you aware of? What can you recall?

Walker Bird [00:26:19]:
About what? Like, you know, sorry, I'm getting sassy. I was drunk. Not much. Oh, my. It's one of those nights, folks.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:33]:
It's okay.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:34]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:35]:
It's a hard topic, too.

Walker Bird [00:26:36]:
It is. No. What do you mean?

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:39]:
Like, can you think of a time when you did drink because you were trying to not feel all the above?

Walker Bird [00:26:51]:
And I think what I really was doing was avoiding the pain decision. And at different points in the spectrum, the pain decision could have just been setting boundaries.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:04]:
Right, Right.

Walker Bird [00:27:05]:
That could have saved the relationship.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:07]:
Okay.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:07]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:27:09]:
But to me, that was. Those decision points were like a. You know, it seemed like life or death, you know, all or nothing. And I wasn't willing to do the all because I didn't want it to end because I had this. You know, it's just. It's sick. The whole thing is sick. But, you know, so my solution was to drink alcohol, you know, to avoid the decision and avoid the, you know, the.

Walker Bird [00:27:44]:
The discomfort. But it doesn't avoid the discomfort for long. You just wake up feeling sick, depressed, worse, you know, maybe said stupid things, you know, didn't help anything. Sings a song that it's, you know, a way to make it stop.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:17]:
Yeah, yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:18]:
For the moment.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:19]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:19]:
Like you were saying.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:20]:
Sort of. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:28:22]:
It's. What's so weird about it. It's a mixed bag because sometimes you just are angry, you know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:34]:
Is the anger then the pain.

Walker Bird [00:28:36]:
It's. It's. This is complex, but it's. Yes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:40]:
Yeah, it is.

Walker Bird [00:28:42]:
And it's. It's also. I guess that is a way of being able to voice the pain.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:48]:
Hmm.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:49]:
Okay.

Walker Bird [00:28:50]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:50]:
Okay.

Walker Bird [00:28:51]:
Because the inhibition is down and then, you know, and not necessarily to the other person. That's. I mean, sometimes. Yeah. And then we lose our shit and say all kinds of things, but there's a basis for all that that's getting vomited out because we're holding it in.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:06]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:29:07]:
And so in this, I'm analyzing it as I go, but I do think, you know, that it can lower those inhibitions so that you can express those feelings. But then you're just swimming. You've got you. Because you're compromised. There's no way to.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:22]:
It's not constructed.

Walker Bird [00:29:24]:
No. It's just anger just feeding on itself, but it is coming out okay.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:30]:
Okay.

Walker Bird [00:29:30]:
You know, just on self conversation, even. I mean, about self, about the other, you know, about the situation. About 10 situations. Whatever it is, you are voicing it, you can voice it. Whereas before, maybe not before you got drunk, who thought we'd be going this direction? Wow. This is like.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:51]:
Not me.

Walker Bird [00:29:54]:
It's raw.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:57]:
It's okay.

Walker Bird [00:29:58]:
It's okay. I've walked that path. It's true.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:01]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:30:03]:
So it's. It's. As in so many things that we talk about, it's complex because it isn't just, hey, it's all happy because it's.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:10]:
Not.

Walker Bird [00:30:12]:
When you're doing that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:13]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:30:15]:
It does numb it, but can also open it, which is Fascinating. But it opens it without any framework being available to deal with it, to work through it, to get yourself grounded around it, to have a rational, seeking help, conversation with somebody else about it, et cetera. You're just swimming. And so it's a. And it's a toxic soup.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:48]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:30:49]:
So that's why I don't think, you know, you may be releasing, but you're just gobbling it right back in.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:56]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:56]:
No, I was thinking about. I don't know if it's.

Walker Bird [00:30:59]:
Yeah. And that's wild. Never thought about it, that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:10]:
Thank you for sharing. What?

Walker Bird [00:31:21]:
No, it's one of those, like, really? Because I'm actually just experiencing it for the first time. It's. You know, I'm going through that. I really wish that I hadn't shared all that. But I also. There's part of me that's like, I don't care. It's okay for me to be truthful. It's true.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:38]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:31:39]:
And it is my experience. It's what I did.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:42]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:31:43]:
So it's okay. But there's a, you know, not a huge shame piece, but some about people who are listening, like, oh, my gosh, it's a fact.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:52]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:31:53]:
And it's okay.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:54]:
We all struggle.

Walker Bird [00:31:56]:
Yes. We are all human.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:58]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:32:00]:
To me, babe, you sharing and your willingness to, even upon reflection, still say, okay, I'm sharing, gives people permission. You know, we have so much shame, you know, in our. I would guess in the world, but I know in our culture, so much shame and. And truly an expectation of perfection. Again, we'll go back to that. How many people raise their hands about who struggles with perfection at that retreat. Every single one. Every single one.

Walker Bird [00:32:38]:
And all the big eyes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:32:40]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:32:46]:
And so I think we need permission for it to be messy. We need permission for us to not know. You know, I thought the comment that you made about, you know, there's no structure to do anything with it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:02]:
Right. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:04]:
Right. Because you don't know that there even is one or there could be one, or how to create one or who to ask for one or to even know that maybe there is one.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:14]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:33:23]:
And you can substitute lots of different substances.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:27]:
Absolutely.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:27]:
Food. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:33:28]:
Ice cream.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:29]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:33:31]:
You know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:32]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:33:33]:
Other drugs. Whatever it may be.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:36]:
Whatever it may be.

Walker Bird [00:33:39]:
And they all carry their own price and lack of framework.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:47]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:51]:
What are you thinking?

Walker Bird [00:33:53]:
That I hope I have the courage to choose the pain.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:59]:
Aren't you? Right now, in this moment?

Walker Bird [00:34:02]:
Yes, I am. Well, especially when I read the comments.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:13]:
And it's interesting because I know even When I.

Walker Bird [00:34:16]:
Okay.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:17]:
Even when I was saying that I wasn't actually thinking about. Right this moment, I was, I was. What I was actually thinking about was the fact that you have been uncomfortable for years because of your autoimmune.

Walker Bird [00:34:35]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:36]:
And right now you are choosing the pain.

Walker Bird [00:34:38]:
Yes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:41]:
Instead of just the chronic uncomfortableness, you're choosing pain because it is not comfortable, what you are going through.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:53]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:54]:
It is painful and exhausting and the treatment is tricky and it is an unknown for sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:04]:
Yeah, yeah.

Walker Bird [00:35:05]:
So.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:06]:
So you've chosen the pain there.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:09]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:35:09]:
And yeah, it's the financial pain too, of all the training. I know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:14]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:19]:
Which then makes me think, are you willing to choose the pain now because you value yourself more?

Walker Bird [00:35:27]:
Well, sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:29]:
Yes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:29]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:30]:
Tell me more.

Walker Bird [00:35:36]:
I don't know. I just think in the past I would have been more hesitant. I'm not going to do that. It's too, you know, experimental or, you know, made up excuses or whatever instead.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:47]:
Of.

Walker Bird [00:35:49]:
You know, or I have. I need to spend that on other people.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:54]:
Sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:56]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:57]:
The lot to spend on yourself.

Walker Bird [00:36:01]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:36:05]:
Interesting.

Walker Bird [00:36:07]:
So, yeah. Well, just so everybody knows, I'm telling you, it's like three different antibiotics and two different antifungals and bladder installations daily. Twice. And there's just a lot of things that are ravaging my system in the process of trying to kill off some tick borne illness that I've had since I was a kid, I think so anyway. It has been rough.

Theresa Hubbard [00:36:35]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:36:37]:
But you have been uncomfortable for a decade at least.

Walker Bird [00:36:41]:
Yeah, probably about a decade. A little bit more.

Theresa Hubbard [00:36:45]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:36:45]:
Asking for help. That's something that's come with that, the growth.

Walker Bird [00:36:53]:
Well, I was able to ask for help because I went to see doctors, but I didn't advocate for myself.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:00]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:01]:
So tell us, tell us the difference between you asking for help and advocating for yourself.

Walker Bird [00:37:14]:
What comes to mind is Oliver Twist. May I have some more, please? No.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:19]:
Mm.

Walker Bird [00:37:20]:
Okay. And that was my experience with a lot of doctors, frankly, if it is not something that they could put, you know, could explain, then it was either in my head or just an unknown. And they would say things like, ah, the power of suggestion. When I would try to come up with, well, maybe it's this or maybe it's this. Instead of being respectful about me having my experience, about my body.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:47]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:37:49]:
And I've grown a lot since those days, you know, and I can be respectful about it, but I'm also not just going to take no for an answer or somebody's opinion that's just straight out. Even if they're an md. I respect it. But if I'm minimized in the process, I will say something and advocate. No, I really think we need to do this. Well, who's following you? Well, I guess it's somebody else is what I would say today because I had one doctor, I was seeing him, he wasn't getting anything done. So I went to the Cleveland Clinic and they actually did something that helped for a while. Right.

Walker Bird [00:38:33]:
And I came back to see my regular doctor in Kansas City and he got the ego, got involved. He's like, well, who's following you?

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:44]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:38:47]:
And I would be very, I would have a very different response today to advocate for myself.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:52]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:38:52]:
You know, let's have a conversation about what I need from you.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:57]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:38:57]:
You know, what I need are ways to come up with solutions so I don't kill myself.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:02]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:39:04]:
Instead of you saying things like that. So anyway, that's the difference for me and do. I mean we've got so many things available now with chat GPT, you know, AI, you have to be careful, but at least you've got resources for doing research and getting some interesting feedback. It could be way off but you can have a more meaningful discussion. Plus we've got the Internet. We didn't, you know, it's when all this started, it really wasn't something that you could find out a whole lot about. I remember searching and searching and searching for interstitial cystitis and it was just slim to none information on it. But anyway, that's part of advocating too for yourself.

Walker Bird [00:39:51]:
But it is a self worth piece.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:54]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:39:56]:
So yeah. What a road. Goodness sakes, it's all about me tonight apparently. I thought it was about you. Anyway, back to you.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:12]:
Well, you know, I just thought we were going to have a conversation about pain versus uncomfortableness. I really didn't know where it was going to go. I just thought that it was fascinating when that person said it to me. I just thought, ha, I've not thought about that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:34]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:35]:
And I can put myself in, you know, different situations, you know, whether it's physical pain or emotional pain and I might choose one over the other depending on the circumstances.

Walker Bird [00:40:54]:
And discomfort and pain or physical versus emotional pain that if.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:59]:
Like I may choose. Well, what's interesting is when you asked me what came to mind was when I was pregnant with Christopher and I knew he was huge and I was so uncomfortable. I was not in pain, I was so uncomfortable. And I go in and say that to the doctor and she's like, well, you know, you're Just at your due date, you know, we can wait a few more weeks. And I was like. And I just started crying and I said, I don't think you understand. He is huge. And, you know, she was like, well, you know, he's probably like £9.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:45]:
You know, you're tall, you can blah, blah, blah, whatever. She goes, well, we'll do a sonogram. So they did it the next day.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:51]:
And the.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:52]:
I know I've said this. Estimated fetal weight popped up at 10 pounds, 11 ounces. And I was like, what? You know, and they're like, well, he's probably only nine pounds. There's 10% error ratio. And I was like, Got out to my car and I'm like, wait a second. He could be 11, right?

Walker Bird [00:42:06]:
And he was.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:07]:
And he was, he was 11, seven.

Walker Bird [00:42:09]:
Oh, he was 12 pounds.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:13]:
Well, he was 11. Yes, my first child.

Walker Bird [00:42:15]:
Eleven and a half.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:16]:
Yes, my first child was 11 pounds, seven ounces.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:20]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:21]:
And I remember, you know, when I was in the room with the doctor when she saw the results, and she said to me, well, we can go ahead and try to have him vaginally, but we're probably going to have to break your pelvis and his collarbones in order to get him out. But if we do that, the possibility of him having, like permanent shoulder damage or something. And I was like, what, why are you even saying that that's an option? And she said, because some women don't feel like they've had a child if they don't try to have it vaginally or if they don't have it vaginally. And I said, I am not one that cares about that. I have carried this child. I just want him out of my body. There is no more room for him. And so for me, you know what? So, and I think that came to mind because I just think of like the, you know, I, I think because it was pain versus uncomfortableness.

Theresa Hubbard [00:43:29]:
But I, I was really thinking about more about him, like a long term. The impact on him than the pain that I would have gone through.

Theresa Hubbard [00:43:40]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:43:41]:
So. Because the potential for him, like I would have. My pelvis would have healed, but it could have been potentially long term. Right. Like, it may not have healed correctly or it may have kept me from having more children. I mean, I don't know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:43:56]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:43:57]:
But I was really thinking about, like, what might his life be like if one or both of his shoulders don't work.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:04]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:05]:
And so anyway, I don't. I mean, I can't tell you exactly why, why that came to mind. But that's what came to mind anyway. It's choices. I think the point is, is that we don't even think about it as being a choice, which you were talking about earlier. You know, we're just doing something. We're not actually thinking about what we're doing. We're not questioning ourselves.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:29]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:29]:
What is this for me? What am I choosing right now.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:39]:
Anyway?

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:40]:
What are you smiling about?

Walker Bird [00:44:41]:
Just learning.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:43]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:44:44]:
Yeah, I still. I know I've said it multiple times. I choose to have the courage to choose the pain.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:55]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:44:56]:
That's where I am.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:57]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:59]:
Well, thanks for stepping in to this tonight, babe.

Walker Bird [00:45:03]:
Yeah, thank you. Love you.

Theresa Hubbard [00:45:05]:
Yeah, I love you too. Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth and we strive to be more compassionate every day.