When the Phone Becomes the Distraction

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:00]:
It's become that, my little buddy. So that I'm not ever alone.

Walker Bird [00:00:07]:
Yeah, I don't like it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:10]:
I know, I know.

Walker Bird [00:00:12]:
I don't like it now that I said it. I mean, if I called it my tool in my toolbox, that's. I can externalize it that way and then I'm in charge of it. Something versus it's something I need to not feel alone.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:24]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:00:38]:
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life. Each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path. Hello.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:08]:
Hello. How are you?

Walker Bird [00:01:10]:
I'm good.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:11]:
Good, good, good. So today.

Walker Bird [00:01:14]:
Glad to be here.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:15]:
Yeah, me too. Me too. Yeah. You? Yeah. Looking forward to the conversation and everything that we're going to share. So we're going to start with the phone experiment for those who maybe did not hear that episode. Five or six weeks ago, Walker and I, on a podcast episode decided to do an experiment by not having our phones in the bedroom. And Walker shared that thinking about it made him anxious.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:50]:
And it did. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:01:55]:
So anyway, go ahead.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:56]:
Yeah. So we have been leaving our phones in the living room. They were with us in Oregon, next to our bed.

Walker Bird [00:02:06]:
Bedside.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:06]:
Yeah, bedside. Just because we don't have a place to put them yet that's even close so that we could hear alarms go off. But we'll have that figured out in the next month or so.

Walker Bird [00:02:16]:
Yeah. So we were in a different space too, you know, when we were. Because we were running the retreat and.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:22]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:02:23]:
I don't know. It didn't have to be different, but for whatever reason. We just went right back to it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:31]:
Yeah. Convenience.

Walker Bird [00:02:32]:
And with it there, I, you know, went back to looking at it. So, anyway.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:38]:
Well, what's been your process over the last five or six weeks?

Walker Bird [00:02:42]:
It was hard at first.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:44]:
Yeah. What did you notice?

Walker Bird [00:02:46]:
Just wanting it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:49]:
Okay.

Walker Bird [00:02:51]:
But without it, I mean, I've gotten used to just leaving it in the other room. And I don't worry about waking up on time or anything else. Your alarm is plenty loud and I'm usually awake anyway, So. No, I actually, I know that I sleep better.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:12]:
Okay, tell us more.

Walker Bird [00:03:14]:
Well, I think it's a combination of not doing the doom scrolling right before I fall asleep. It gives me space to practice gratitude, which is usually what I fall asleep doing, you know, and it's quick Nice. Um, and I've noticed that I'm not waking up as many times a night.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:36]:
Interesting.

Walker Bird [00:03:36]:
Yeah. And I. So I don't know. Is that a radio. Is a radio frequency, whatever it is these days, but electronic frequency? Is it just not having activated my brain in those ugly ways before going to sleep? Is it not being able to roll over and tap the phone just to see if there's any messages or. I think it's mostly that. Probably not that I get messages at night, but I don't know. We expect that's part of the whole thing.

Walker Bird [00:04:07]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:04:08]:
Some notification.

Walker Bird [00:04:11]:
And there's. With my glasses off, I cannot see the new clock because we got a daylight clock, so we could see the time, but without my glasses on, I can't see it. So I don't worry about it. If I. If I get up and have to go to the bathroom, I may or I may not look. I guess I usually do because I'm wondering how much more time I've got before it's time to wake up. So, anyway, what I would say overall is it was. It was difficult at first, and it was certainly easy when we went to Oregon to fall right back into it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:04:41]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:04:42]:
And it takes away space that we spend snuggling or talking a little bit when the phone is there. You know, it's just so easy to. Well, this is my me time. When you got your phone, it's your little buddy. That's really not. Anyway, that's been my experience. So I think overall it's been a really good thing, and I think we should continue. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:05:11]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:05:11]:
And then I saw your bed phone in the bed this morning, and I was like, what is going on? When did you sneak that thing in?

Theresa Hubbard [00:05:18]:
Yeah. Yep. When I got up to go to the bathroom.

Walker Bird [00:05:23]:
Why'd you bring it in?

Theresa Hubbard [00:05:32]:
Good question. You were in the bathroom off the kitchen. And I got up to go to the bathroom, and then I think. I think I brought it in because I knew I had to get up early today to go get blood work done. And I was like, it'll give me 15 more minutes without having to get up out of bed because I'll have to go turn the alarm.

Walker Bird [00:06:04]:
But you didn't look at it at all, did you? You just used it for the alarm. I'm being facetious.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:13]:
Oh, I thought you were being serious. No, I. I think I looked at it, but it. Only for a moment.

Walker Bird [00:06:18]:
I was tired because it was on the bed, you know, not on the bedside table or something like that. But anyway. Tell Me, I just was teasing mostly. But also it's interesting that, you know, why would you pick it up and, you know. But so you don't have to snooze. The alarm makes a lot of sense. It would be easy for me if I swung by my phone and I've tried. I was swinging by it.

Walker Bird [00:06:41]:
Sometimes at night, you know, out in the living room, I would sw. And I'm really trying not to do that, and I really haven't. I started because I got a shorter cord. I've been putting it in the bat, the dog toy basket that's behind my chair still. Or cat toy, whatever that is.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:58]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:06:59]:
And that helps. So it's not even sitting up where it's easy to just, you know, walk over and. Yeah. So. But what's been your experience without it on the bedside?

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:16]:
Well, I would say at first, for sure, it was just unfamiliar, you know, getting settled into bed in a particular way. It just. Yeah. Changing pattern is really what it was initially. And then once the pattern was there, then I think I became more aware of like, how long did it take me to get settled in and fall asleep. Not long, actually, not long at all. So that was interesting too. So I don't know what the difference was.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:03]:
I just was thinking that it would take me longer because I wasn't. Because normally, you know, I'd be working or we'd be having conversation, we'd get in bed, we'd both scroll, show each other silly videos and then go to sleep. So I thought, well, it may take me as long to wind it down and it didn't. So that was nice. I would say I think you sleep better too. I mean, I sleep overall pretty good now at this point in my life, I may get up to go to the bathroom once, but not always.

Walker Bird [00:08:41]:
Lucky you.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:45]:
Thank you. Yeah, so I think. I like it, not being in there, for sure. I like, you know, not every night do I come in and get in bed. And once you get in, I put my head on your chest. But a number of times and it's been really nice. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:09:14]:
A lot more.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:15]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:09:16]:
No, I would definitely say we've been snuggling more. Whether it's that or just spooning or whatever, but. And then we fall asleep and with the phone in there, this is my experience, we would be up late, you know, oh, well, we go to sleep at 9:30, but it might be 11:00 clock because you just get lost in, you know, scroll land. And I mean, I know last week it seemed like we were up Working pretty late. Several nights. But typically, what I know is once we get in without the phones, I'm asleep in seconds, mostly.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:53]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's been really nice. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:09:57]:
So, yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:58]:
Good experiment. I'm glad we did it.

Walker Bird [00:10:01]:
A new way of being, I think.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:03]:
Yeah. You know, absolutely.

Walker Bird [00:10:04]:
I just. It's not something we need, and I don't think it's healthy.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:08]:
Hmm. That's a distraction. There was. The way you said it a few minutes ago was really interesting. Yeah. When you called it my little buddy.

Walker Bird [00:10:19]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:19]:
And I thought, what an interesting.

Walker Bird [00:10:21]:
Who's not? I said, who's not?

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:24]:
Who's not? Right, right. Your little buddy who's not. But, yeah, it's so interesting, the false sense of feeling like we're not alone. Yeah. Anyway, the my little buddy thing was, like, startling to my awareness, like, fascinating.

Walker Bird [00:10:44]:
Yeah. It's almost like. I mean, what's occurring to me is, like, Faustian, you know, tell me more. It's. Well, just, you know, it's your. I call it my little buddy who's not. But it's like my little buddy who wants to tell me a secret. And, you know, and then I'm doing what we do when we scroll, you know, reading doom or whatever it is.

Walker Bird [00:11:07]:
Biased. You know, news.

Theresa Hubbard [00:11:09]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:11:10]:
Or MMA fighting or, you know, whatever pops up on my YouTube feed, for example, whatever we may have been talking about throughout the day. Right, right. And a lot of times, it's just not helpful.

Theresa Hubbard [00:11:23]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:11:23]:
Because what sells and what catches our.

Theresa Hubbard [00:11:25]:
Attention.

Walker Bird [00:11:28]:
Is a lot of times not what's helpful. It's interesting because we just had a guest where we talked about needing, you know, needing until we don't or decide that we don't need it to have villains and victims. And it struck me, as we were having that conversation that so much of what catches my attention on my feed is villain and victim. I told you it was a big day with that interview.

Theresa Hubbard [00:11:59]:
Yeah, yeah, you did say it was a big day.

Walker Bird [00:12:01]:
But a lot of the advertising for, like, the fighters is, you know, dirty rat gets payback, so you want to see the guy get knocked out or whatever it may be. And that's just one example. So. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:17]:
Yeah, no, it's interesting.

Walker Bird [00:12:18]:
Faustian.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:19]:
Okay, so tell me what the Faustian piece is.

Walker Bird [00:12:22]:
Oh, just. It's like the devil whispering sweet nothings in your ear about, oh, I can help you, and this is something that's good for you. Like it. You know, it's entertained, helps you settle down. You know, hand arm around your back. And I know I'm putting It in big existential, dramatic terms, but it's true to some degree for me, anyway. And then it's not helpful.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:45]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:12:46]:
Because there's a Louise Hay meditation, which is like, for heaven's sake. And she's talking about reading the newspaper before bed. Don't put on all that in your head before you go to sleep. And this is, you know, newspaper on steroids to the nth degree.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:08]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:13:10]:
Designed to keep you watching.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:15]:
Do you know where the Faustian term came from?

Walker Bird [00:13:18]:
I was reading. I wanted to. You really want to know? I do, yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:23]:
It's okay.

Walker Bird [00:13:24]:
Mark Twain wrote a short story in, like, the late 1800s, and I can't. It was like the. What is it? The Beautiful Stranger or something like that. And I had read it, and it struck me that I wondered if it was just. He was taking it off the classic Faustian story. And the answer was no. I mean, there were certain themes alongside of it, but it's basically being walked down the primrose path by some malevolent force, whether you want to call it the devil or Faustian or whatever.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:58]:
Fascinating.

Walker Bird [00:13:59]:
Yeah. So that's. I wondered that. But I was also researching Will Rogers, and you probably don't know who he is, because I do. Do you? Oh, well, I grew up in Oklahoma, and so. Will Rogers from Oklahoma.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:13]:
No. He seemed like a very sweet man.

Walker Bird [00:14:15]:
He was a fascinating man. And so was Mark Twain. Both not educated men, but both wise and insightful into the human condition and extremely well read, interesting or well spoken. And Will Rogers humor is fascinating. It's very periodic. Right. Because he was a cowboy. He literally was in a.

Walker Bird [00:14:43]:
In a different time. But he uses satire to make a lot of political commentary that you. Is unexpected and commentary about, you know, human beings.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:55]:
Fascinating.

Walker Bird [00:14:56]:
Yeah. He had a saying that I've thought about a lot, and we're getting far started. But that's where Faustian came from, because I looked at Will Rogers and then I was like, hey, you know, he. Was he influenced by Mark Twain? I wondered. And so then I remember the story that Mark Wayne. But anyway, Will Rogers quote is, I never met a man I didn't like.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:16]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:15:19]:
But I'm guessing he had a definition of a man.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:22]:
Right, right, right, right. Yeah. He could see the humanness. Right, right. Understanding. We all have a story.

Walker Bird [00:15:29]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:30]:
On how we got here, and it makes sense in context.

Walker Bird [00:15:33]:
So anyway. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:36]:
Fascinating.

Walker Bird [00:15:38]:
Yes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:39]:
Yeah. So going back to the phone. Yeah. I think it would be an interesting way to reclassify it to make it more externalized. Like, this isn't my Cell phone. It's my little buddy. I think it gives us more choice on what we do with it, interestingly enough.

Walker Bird [00:15:59]:
Yeah. And I guess it just occurred to me, I don't want to be not labeling technology or phones as evil, but I think in certain contexts, they can certainly be not helpful.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:09]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:16:10]:
And they can. It does it. Because it's. It's. What do you call it? Catering to your. What you look at long enough. Just timing how long you look, and then you get more of that or what you're talking about.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:24]:
And.

Walker Bird [00:16:25]:
And I'm not sure that's particularly helpful unless you are wanting to pursue information versus being in a semi sleep state.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:35]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:16:35]:
As we talked about when we decided we were setting those aside.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:38]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:16:39]:
So our discerning mind is. Is not operative.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:43]:
Right. So let me be clear. That is exactly what I meant.

Walker Bird [00:16:48]:
Oh. If you.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:49]:
If you decided, if you chose to externalize your phone instead of it just being my phone, if you started calling your phone my little buddy, then you can ask yourself, and I know this sounds silly, but it's become such a part of a lot of people's lives. Right. And mine is very helpful in a lot of ways. My feed is very helpful in a lot of ways. But. But could I also say, do I need my little buddy right now? Right. Do I need my little buddy to go to the bathroom? Do I need my little buddy to go to bed? Do I need my little buddy? Whatever. I don't know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:36]:
I think sometimes we just need a different way of seeing something or calling something, you know, we don't. We all have different brains, and the way that we grasp hold of something is different. And so when you said that my little buddy, my brain went fascinating. Because in so many ways, it is that.

Walker Bird [00:18:02]:
Mm.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:02]:
It's become that my little buddy. So that I'm not ever alone.

Walker Bird [00:18:09]:
Yeah. I don't like it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:13]:
I know. I know.

Walker Bird [00:18:14]:
I don't like it now that I said it. I mean, if I called it my tool in my toolbox, that's. I can externalize it that way, and then I'm in charge of it. Something versus it's something I need to not feel alone.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:26]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:18:37]:
We both have our phones in the room right now, so we're gonna be getting, you know, this onslaught of. No, you need your phone videos. Tragedy strikes. Phone not on bed table. Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:54]:
Anyway. Fascinating. Who knew that conversation was gonna go that direction?

Walker Bird [00:18:59]:
Sake. Okay, what's next?

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:02]:
So what's next? So we will continue the phone. I don't know that we would call it an experiment anymore. I think we've just made a choice.

Walker Bird [00:19:10]:
Phone experience.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:10]:
Yeah, the phone experience. Yeah. Yeah, we like it. Even though it was an adjustment for us both practically and mentally and somewhat emotionally as well.

Walker Bird [00:19:25]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:25]:
And then the physiological part of we actually both sleep better. Yeah. So yay.

Walker Bird [00:19:33]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:35]:
During the holidays, are there times that you want to chuck a loved one out a window?

Walker Bird [00:19:40]:
Sadly, yes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:42]:
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Walker Bird [00:19:48]:
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Theresa Hubbard [00:20:08]:
We hope you'll give it a try.

Walker Bird [00:20:09]:
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Theresa Hubbard [00:20:16]:
Yeah. We hope you'll join us. So the next thing that we wanted to talk about is in 2026.

Walker Bird [00:20:27]:
Yes. It's exciting.

Theresa Hubbard [00:20:30]:
It is exciting. We are. I'm not. We're not saying we're not ever going to have a guest on again to talk about their experience of my inner knowing. But what Walker and I are seeking, and initially, we are looking for people who are local that can come in studio with us and have a conversation with us around a topic that they feel like they could use brainstorming around. And so, yeah, there might be some assumption that it has to be like an emotional topic. It doesn't have to be. It could be, you know, a passion project or.

Theresa Hubbard [00:21:21]:
Yeah, a family something. I mean, but really it's. It is brainstorming. It is Walker and I holding space, curious space with that person from the different ways that we ask questions. And, you know, ultimately the hope is that we are. We're modeling how you can be curious with someone when they come to you and support them around something that's important to them, that if there are, like. Because we don't always have all the information we need, that maybe there are ideas that Walker and I have that we could offer. But ultimately what we want is also to demonstrate with that person and for anybody that's listening, ways that you can find your inner knowing, that there probably will be plenty of guests who at least on some level, know the answer to their situation.

Theresa Hubbard [00:22:34]:
But maybe they're not clear about it. Maybe they're afraid. Maybe they don't even know they're Afraid. And we just want to walk with people through that process. So what do you want to share about it?

Walker Bird [00:22:47]:
Well, I was thinking, between us, we have 111 years of experience, and we're both professionals. You know, we've seen a lot. We've done a lot. It doesn't mean that we know everything or where they, you know, ultimate experts, but I think we are very good communicators. We're trained in that, in our own respective ways. And we're very curious human beings with some different outlooks and who've been really working hard on our inner knowing.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:21]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:23:22]:
Before we started the podcast, but especially since over the last shoot, we're coming up on two years, right?

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:28]:
Yeah, two years in January.

Walker Bird [00:23:29]:
Yeah. So, anyway, we think that it might be fascinating, extremely helpful for the person who wants to do it with us and fascinating for all of our viewers to learn to see those interactions and see us work through some issues. Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:53]:
Yeah. Yeah. I feel like the people that listen to us regularly know, and the people that, you know, go on retreat with us or do classes with us know that our main goal is to help you find more freedom.

Walker Bird [00:24:10]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:24:11]:
And in. In the ways that work best for you and ways that you can sustain them. And so for us, it's just an exciting way for us to be in conversation with people to help and support that individual person walk through that process, but again, ultimately helping spark ideas or interest or, aha. Moments in people that are listening. So for us, it's something we're very excited about. Yeah. And I think we hold nice space for people. And so our hope is that feels good too, you know, because I.

Theresa Hubbard [00:24:53]:
What I know. Like, even yesterday we did a Journey into the Gray, which is a group process that I facilitate quarterly for mental health professionals. And, you know, the common theme amongst each person as they were sharing yesterday, is that, like, this is a place that I can come where I know that I can share, and people are holding that space for me and Walker, and I want that for everyone. And we know we can't give it to everyone, but hopefully in the process of these experiences, these brainstorm experiences with people, that people have that experience too, even if they're just listening. So, anyway, so we wanted to share that.

Walker Bird [00:25:46]:
Yeah, we'll be making that offering more formally and tell you how to get in touch with us to do it, but we've got a lot more coming too. What else are we doing?

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:54]:
Yeah, yeah. We did want to say, if you already have something in mind, reach out to us through the website themyounderknowing.com just send us a message and, and we'll just start collecting that information. And then what else is coming? Oh, more retreats next year. So April, July, September and November. And I don't have my calendar in front of me and I didn't write it down so I had it today. And we will hopefully have stuff up on the website in the next few weeks. But I think it's, I think the dates are exactly the same as they were last month in Oregon. So I think it's like April 22nd through 27th, like flying in on the 22nd, flying out the 27th.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:45]:
I think it's the same days in July, July 22nd through 27th, again flying in the 22nd, now the 27th, and then September. I don't think it's quite the same day. I think maybe the 23rd to the 28th or something. And then our hope is, is that in November. So those three retreats will be in Oregon and the one in April is going to be about subtle energy. And it's really like teaching the practical parts of like our energetic body and the energetic body of other people. How can we maintain our own energy? How do we understand and navigate the energy of others and the impact that can have on us? And so I know that we don't. I wish I had the, this tool with me that I use in session.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:42]:
I know we don't think of the body physiologically as energetic and I think we can think of the energy body as being like woo woo or alternative. And it isn't.

Walker Bird [00:27:53]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:54]:
At all. We are a salt battery. If we do not have salt or water, we do not function. We don't work. Our body doesn't work. And so really trying to help people understand how important it is that we care for our body in order for it to work like it's designed to work. And so it'll be a really fully encompassed retreat around understanding that both, you know, practically the foods we eat, the foods you and I cook and serve for everyone, but also a lot of experiential practices that you can use to understand and experience that. And then July and September will be versions of the unfolding into the forest that we did last month.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:43]:
Different, but still that, that deeper experience with nature and ourselves. And, and then we're, we're thinking about what November in Sedona looks like. So what do you want to share about those things?

Walker Bird [00:29:01]:
Yeah, for, well, for those of you who, who don't know about our retreats, you can find them the Ones that we've had recently on our website, myinnerknowing.com and we have built a. I mean we didn't build it out, it's a home, but we've turned it into a retreat center on the Oregon coast. So it's on a sand dune lake about three miles inland from the central Pacific coast of Oregon. And the trees are magnificent, the water is magnificent, the coastal rainforest is just amazing. The forest just. And the, the lake we're on is spring feds. You can see down to the sand bottom. It's a natural lake.

Walker Bird [00:29:50]:
And then there's five story sand dunes just to our west in Dunes National Park. And there is just so much of the wonder of nature and the energy of the Pacific Northwest is if you haven't been, you need to join us or go on your own because it is just astounding. So Oregon is a vast state and it is very geographically diverse. Where we are, the mountains are coming down to the ocean and so the temperature is usually within a 10 degree range. It's pretty temperate. I mean it's on the cooler side, kind of like north central England is what I would compare it to. And it's just such a. The energy piece is such a wonderful addition to the work that we do with people.

Walker Bird [00:30:50]:
And the adventure piece, because there are multiple in this area, just happens to be some of the best portions of the wonders of the Oregon coast. Things that you can see and on. So we do outings into the forest, out to the coast, along the mountain ridges and all those things. And so it's just been. I'm so excited to share it with people because we love it. And everybody who went on this most recent retreat is just like, when are we doing this again? And I guess another part that's really important to me is it the way we manage this retreat, having it be a little bit longer. And just the way it put together, it created community. And we always create community in a retreat.

Walker Bird [00:31:41]:
But for some reason the Oregon experience is even better.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:45]:
Yeah, different. Something.

Walker Bird [00:31:47]:
Yeah, there's something different about it. And it may be because everybody's traveling to the same place. And then we did in this particular one, we got a passenger van and hauled everybody together. So we were all together. But then there were space to have individual time. People went out on kayaks alone and people went on walks alone through the hobbit forest right next to the retreat center. We call it Seaforest Sanctuary. So in any event, for all those reasons and many, many more, we are so excited to Be able to make this offering to people.

Walker Bird [00:32:23]:
It's what we love to do.

Theresa Hubbard [00:32:24]:
It is.

Walker Bird [00:32:25]:
And people feel loved and cared for and they, they connect. And we're just, just so missing with everything we have with our phones and work and the polarization of society, all those things. But we had some pretty diverse people that set that crap aside and were able to, you know, because we eat meals together and we had two separate tables and people intermixed. But having the group meals that we've prepared and it's just.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:00]:
Really nice.

Walker Bird [00:33:00]:
It's an opportunity to have. I don't know, it's home in a way. To me, this family piece kind of comes in and it's just really, really lovely, babe. And it's just. You could tell, I'm just so grateful.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:18]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:33:18]:
To be able to experience it with you and with anybody who decides that they want to come. And it's. It's a little bit limited as far as the numbers of people that we can have.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:31]:
Ten at a time.

Walker Bird [00:33:32]:
Ten at a time is pretty much our max right now. It may expand a little bit, but 10 is pretty good because it keeps it that we can give attention to everybody that comes and it's. And it's not so many people that people don't get to interact and know each other better.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:50]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:33:51]:
So it's just really lovely. And it's easy to get to know people in such a incredibly welcoming environment that we provide. But also such a welcoming environment that nature provides too.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:04]:
Absolutely.

Walker Bird [00:34:06]:
The healing power of that place.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:12]:
Yeah. It's amazing. He's excited. Yep.

Walker Bird [00:34:16]:
An hour later he's finished talking how great it is. Because it is. Anyway, please check it out because we're gonna do many more next year. And who knows what the future holds as far as those.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:29]:
Yeah. And then locally we're hoping to do the no small talk dinners where people can come. We're just working on all the details where people can come and just step into deep conversation and have a really nice meal. And then probably some nature focused events too at the land and some book. I don't know if you want to call it a book club, but you know, maybe a few times a year that we, you know, work through a particular book topic where we can just have conversation together about it. You know, just continuing to explore other people's perspectives and interpretations of. Of the same source. So.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:17]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:35:17]:
Agreed. And just for example, we did the Untethered Soul during COVID with several people. But this will be a little bit different through my inner knowing. But it's still, we think it's going to be a great experience, a great offering and a way to experience community with people that have. They're not the same, but there's a similar interest at least to engage right around a book.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:45]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:35:47]:
And in that process, we're doing what we do, which is model relationship and help people with issues that come up and provide community. There's a whole lot more. What else would you describe from that?

Theresa Hubbard [00:36:05]:
You know, it was interesting when you were talking earlier about the. The meals, like on retreat and feeling like it's family. And you know, what I was thinking was maybe not like the family most of us grew up in.

Walker Bird [00:36:26]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:36:28]:
I was thinking that, you know, we can get into roles in our family. We. We get into roles in our family. And what I feel like when I look back at the retreat is how much effort I feel like people put into not being in a role, like they were trying to negotiate themselves outside of a role. Right. I mean, different people sitting in different spots and having conversation with different people and, you know, just even exploring, you know, the different meals that we prepared and just listening to all the conversations, it was just really nice. And so anyway, that's what I was thinking about it. And even just watching people play when they were playing, you know, was really, really nice, you know, And I think.

Walker Bird [00:37:22]:
You know, we mix in the experiential exercises and I think that helps put people in a mindset of being curious with themselves and that leads to more curiosity and different types of conversation and the ability to put down roles when you're especially sitting across the table or next to somebody during a meal. And I know that kind of happens at other retreats that we've been to, but you're. I don't know, we just provide a really personal experience and I think it helps set the stage for that to coalesce. Yeah, right. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:02]:
I would say, I think in the retreat industry, they call what we offer high touch retreats, which just means that you and I, as facilitators are available throughout the person's experience.

Walker Bird [00:38:15]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:16]:
We're not just there for five or six hours a day and then we disappear, you know, and come back the next day. We are, we are with people on the journey. And so it is a different experience. It's interesting because the other thing that came to mind when you were sharing was, you know, we don't have alcohol at our retreats.

Walker Bird [00:38:38]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:39]:
So we have other nice drinks, but we do not have alcohol. And that's just, just from my own growing up you know, when people are playing, no one's getting upset and throwing the game board across the room, right? Or mad because they lost. You know, people are putting effort into figuring out how to be in healthy relationship with other people, you know, whether they're sharing a room together and, you know, maybe they've met before, maybe they haven't met before, but like negotiating the unknown. And I think it's lovely to watch in a, in a pretty contained, safe way, you know, so that we can build more, you know, confidence and competence and just learning to be brave. That's what we really are wanting people to learn, the freedom. And you got this.

Walker Bird [00:39:47]:
You know, it struck me, I'm gonna go back to the, the natural wonder of the space, the energy of that, of the, of the. With the mountains and the sea right there and all, just all of it. But the. There was a hike that we went on where we climb a ridge up from a lighthouse that's out on a point and you're up above the ocean, then across the ridge and it's challenging enough, but in any event, we ended up getting close to sundown and then we, it ends at a beach and you. We walk through this tunnel, right, that they've cut through whatever the plants are that, you know, the coastal vegetation, but they're heavy bushes really. And so when we walked out through that, it's just. And there's so many experiences like this at our retreat center. And it was just absolutely stunning.

Walker Bird [00:40:51]:
And I've seen it before, right? Many, many times. But you walk through that, come out of the tunnel and there's, you know, there's red and orange across the sky and the beach is huge and it's reflecting. And so, you know, you see people reflecting in there and everybody's doing their thing. And what I think is helpful about that whole experience, and it's not just that it was the whole hike itself. You know, there were these enormous, you know, 250 year old trees and these beings that are from other ages. And it's just the ocean is primeval and full of all this life and it provides us a space to really get in touch with the wonder that we knew as children.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:47]:
Oh yeah.

Walker Bird [00:41:49]:
And when everybody was on that beach is probably where I saw it the most, climbing up the, up the hill. I mean, that was a precursor to that experience. But when you see the other amazing, you know, things there are to see there, it's still. You were filled. When you see literally a 250, 300 year old tree, that's how tall is the giant spruce, the Sitka spruce.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:13]:
Oh, I don't know. I can't remember.

Walker Bird [00:42:14]:
It's just enormous. And it's been there for generations, you know, lifetimes of people. Yeah. And you cannot help but be put into this space where you can, you know, drop the act. You don't need it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:31]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:42:32]:
And so that's part of why I'm so excited about it and why I love it there. Because that helps us do our other work.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:41]:
Yes, it does.

Walker Bird [00:42:43]:
So. And what's coming to mind is I read a book way back when I got out of college called Taming youg Gremlin. I don't know if you've ever heard of it. I don't think so, but it was by a psychologist or psychiatrist. Anyway, the gremlin is the little voice that sits on your shoulder that's telling you you're not enough and you're not worthy and all those things. But one of the things it says, I think it was the subtitle of the book, but it could have been just a saying inside the book. It was surrender your pact. It could have been a chapter.

Walker Bird [00:43:09]:
Surrender your pact to keep your act int. And that kept coming to mind while we're talking about this. But I do think that, you know, we do great work, man. The nature just fills in.

Theresa Hubbard [00:43:25]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:43:25]:
The rest.

Theresa Hubbard [00:43:27]:
Yeah. He's very excited. I am, too. I am. I am too, now. It's spectacular. It really, truly is. So, so, so, ah, As we enter this holiday season.

Theresa Hubbard [00:43:53]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:43:54]:
Yes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:43:55]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:43:58]:
How's your uncle doing, by the way? I want to chuck my uncle out a window.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:06]:
I think I said relative on relative.

Walker Bird [00:44:08]:
Oh, well, okay. Spoiler alert. That's right. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:16]:
Yeah. On our. Some reels that we did recently. So we did for our course, I said, when you want to chuck a relative out of windows.

Walker Bird [00:44:23]:
And I burst out laughing.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:24]:
Yeah. I think it's important for us to spend some time. I mean, I know we have Thanksgiving that's right around the corner and then. Or will have passed actually by the time this episode comes, but Christmas will not have happened yet.

Walker Bird [00:44:44]:
And New Year's and all the other holidays.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:47]:
Yeah. Yes. All the other holidays. I. I was going to say Yom Kippur. I can Kwanzaa. I don't know. I don't have in front of me the calendar of all the holidays that happen between mid November and mid January.

Theresa Hubbard [00:45:00]:
But all of those holidays where we traditionally, you know, come together as a family. And for some families, they see each other more regularly. Some families do not see each Other more regularly. And so this may be the time of year, the one time of year that they see family, and oftentimes there is a sense of responsibility or obligation that comes, an expectation from family members. And so what I'm thinking about is, like, how do we prepare ourselves for that, for those experiences, like, what do you do to prepare yourself, to hold on to yourself around your family?

Walker Bird [00:45:53]:
Well, I'm looking forward to it. Number one, I don't. The people that would have caused the most anxiety have passed away. For me, I think I recognize that if I need space or if I start feeling like a little kid, it's time to take a break. I really think that is an important part for me. And I will go and just wander off to my room and have some quiet time sometimes. But I think, you know, when we did an episode on your falling back into your family roles, and that will be more, you know, in the front of my mind as we're approaching this Thanksgiving, Not in a really bad way, but just to observe and see what happens. And.

Walker Bird [00:46:49]:
But what I want to do is, if it isn't feeling good, you know, checking in with my body, you know, how's that landing? Am I getting that spot?

Theresa Hubbard [00:47:00]:
Your spot, that, you know, that can get activated?

Walker Bird [00:47:03]:
Sure. Where I feel anxiety or the bad stuff. Right. And so if that is doing its thing, then I will have feedback that I can work with, you know, and it may be boundaries, maybe boundaries on the spot. Not in a big dramatic way, but in simple ways. One boundary may just be disengaging. And, you know, you know, I'm not doing this. I love you so much, but I'm not doing this.

Walker Bird [00:47:30]:
And I'm going to go take a break now, you know, if I need to do something like that, I don't know. Yeah, I guess we'll play it as it comes. But what I feel is more prepared to pay attention and take care of myself in that process.

Theresa Hubbard [00:47:43]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:47:43]:
You know, I don't know. What's your recommendation?

Theresa Hubbard [00:47:47]:
Well, really quick, how do you think you got permission to change how you interact with your family?

Walker Bird [00:47:58]:
Choice.

Theresa Hubbard [00:47:59]:
Choice. Tell us more.

Walker Bird [00:48:01]:
I don't need anyone's permission. That's part of the issue, Right? Yeah, I think that. I think it's a function of working on myself, meditating, therapy, And age, too. Although age doesn't mean that you're changing.

Theresa Hubbard [00:48:26]:
No.

Walker Bird [00:48:27]:
Sometimes people are just seeing, you know, and fall back into the same complete, you know, unhealthy patterns or continue to, you know, some people have anxiety because they will be abusive Whatever goes on. People say passive aggressive or overtly aggressive things in family to put you. Make sure you stay in your place.

Theresa Hubbard [00:48:47]:
Lots of shame.

Walker Bird [00:48:49]:
And for me, I. I don't think that I have that. But what I know is that I have choice.

Theresa Hubbard [00:48:57]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:48:58]:
And having practiced and it's not always perfect. I know I can be reactive still. But I still. I think more often than not. Pause. Maybe not more often than I used to, for sure. And that pauses. The space to decide is this, you know, the same old thing that's not feeling good to me.

Walker Bird [00:49:21]:
And if. If I'm in that space now, I have absolute choice and the power to do it. I don't need someone's permission. And if it. If it happened and this isn't where we are, but if it happened to blow up, I also have the ability to, you know, I think, deal with it as my wise adult. Better. And also the ability to choose. I'm out.

Theresa Hubbard [00:49:49]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:49:50]:
And I don't have to do this.

Theresa Hubbard [00:49:52]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:49:53]:
So I don't know that maybe that's not the way you would recommend it, but that's what came out today.

Theresa Hubbard [00:49:57]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:49:58]:
I can't even imagine storming out of the house. Or not storming, but walking quietly. I'm done. I'm packing up my things. See you guys later. I don't see that happening. But I could do it if need be. But I would want to do it.

Walker Bird [00:50:11]:
Well.

Theresa Hubbard [00:50:12]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:50:13]:
Now.

Theresa Hubbard [00:50:13]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:50:13]:
Versus the old me. Probably would have stormed off or gone and sulked in my room and then been. Grumpy and passively aggressive.

Theresa Hubbard [00:50:26]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:50:26]:
To, you know, get back at whoever did their thing.

Theresa Hubbard [00:50:30]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:50:32]:
Yeah. That'd be my teenager. Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:50:36]:
I think it could be a lot of different ages.

Walker Bird [00:50:39]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:50:40]:
Yeah. What I was thinking when you were sharing was, you know, when we. When we are around our family and those parts of us that come out that are younger, that are not the healthy, joyful, playful parts that can come out, but the insecure. I don't know my place. I'm worried about abandoned, being abandoned or made fun of or shamed or whatever. You know, those parts that, you know. Can we. Can we take a break? Can we go find just a little space? Put our feet on the ground, touch our chest, you know, our heart, whatever.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:35]:
Even though this is familiar, this does not define who I am. I want to have as healthy a relationship as possible. What am I most afraid of? What do I really want right now? And being honest with ourselves, which I think is just so hard. But I want my family to see me, to value me. To respect that I'm my own person, that they aren't or don't need to be threatened by me being different than them.

Walker Bird [00:52:18]:
Or different than you used to be.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:19]:
Or different than I used to be. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:52:24]:
Yeah. So I think it's opportunity, too, bame. Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:29]:
To practice, to get more clear.

Walker Bird [00:52:31]:
Yeah. Well, we've talked about conversations with parents and children and all those things, and it is an opportunity to get curious or to express, you know, that's it's. It's vulnerable and it's risky and it's brave. And it's brave not to devolve into screaming, but to. Be honest, that you want relationship. That when this happens or you say that I feel this.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:22]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:53:24]:
And it has to. You have to gauge that against who you're dealing with too, right?

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:28]:
Oh, absolutely.

Walker Bird [00:53:29]:
I think we know some people have no real interest in being in relationship with us in any other way, but if there's. That it's an opportunity if you think that they want to be there anyway.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:45]:
Right. Right. It's all an experiment.

Walker Bird [00:53:49]:
And knowing that they may not.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:51]:
And they may not.

Walker Bird [00:53:51]:
And if you decide to go that direction and be vulnerable and they take advantage of it to attack more or.

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:02]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:54:03]:
Or just can't respond in the way that you would like, understanding that you're okay. I'm okay. Regardless of how they react to my being vulnerable, it does not define me. Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:19]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:54:20]:
What do you think of that?

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:23]:
Yeah. I think it's impossible to cover every circumstance. And so I think that we just have to do our best to learn to keep reading the room. And if we can look at it as an experiment, maybe we pick a relative that would not be the most difficult relative.

Walker Bird [00:54:54]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:55]:
Maybe we pick a relative that, you know, our relationship isn't really clear, but it's not necessarily adversarial. And, you know, maybe we can be like, you know, I'd like to know more about who you are. Right. And we're learning to create connection.

Walker Bird [00:55:16]:
And.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:19]:
And in that being brave, we feel more capable to set boundaries when. When those are needed, too.

Walker Bird [00:55:29]:
Yeah. I think that's an interesting thought. Just to have one. Just even one. One conversation with one relative this Thanksgiving.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:39]:
Or Christmas or any holiday, whatever.

Walker Bird [00:55:41]:
I'm just saying, because it's coming right up, we can resolve once. I'm just going to say, right. You know, tell me who you really are. What's your experience?

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:53]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:55:54]:
And mean it. And be curious and follow through and see if you don't learn something new or create a new connection. And because that can be exhausting. And that's why I'm saying just one.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:07]:
Just one.

Walker Bird [00:56:08]:
Just try it out. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:10]:
Yeah. I like it. Good.

Walker Bird [00:56:14]:
And you've been. Well, one of the things that you've talked to me about recently, too, is to take, you know, a sister and, you know, look them in the eye. Because I love my sisters. I do. And that, you know, that's not every. Where everybody is. So I'm not telling people how to do it, but because I love my sisters and I would like more relationship. Look them in the eye and, you know, even if you have to hold their arms.

Walker Bird [00:56:40]:
I love you. I love you.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:48]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:56:50]:
I'm not sure that the conversation has to go any deeper than that. If you really, really mean it, it will, most likely. But even if it doesn't.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:00]:
Yeah, I did that.

Walker Bird [00:57:02]:
I like that idea.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:03]:
Yeah. And it wasn't, you know, we were on the beach and we just said, you know, I love you to each other, and then I said, I love you so much, and there wasn't anything more than that.

Walker Bird [00:57:18]:
Yeah. Did there need to be?

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:20]:
No.

Walker Bird [00:57:21]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:23]:
No. But I think we think often that there does need to be, but. Mm. Yeah. So hard. And we make relationships so hard. Yeah. And understand.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:41]:
I mean, I understand we are complex beings and we have needs, and I just don't know that we understand ourselves very well. And if we don't understand ourselves very well, we don't understand others very well. Yeah. Anyway.

Walker Bird [00:57:57]:
All right, babe. Another hour has passed. I could talk to you for lifetimes, I think.

Theresa Hubbard [00:58:03]:
Thanks, baby. Me too. I love you.

Walker Bird [00:58:05]:
I love you, too. Thanks.

Theresa Hubbard [00:58:09]:
Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth, and we strive to be more compassionate every day.