Intelligence vs Wisdom in Everyday Life

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:00]:
So when you think about going back to the intelligence versus wisdom, how do you feel like that informs you and how you want to walk in the world, how you want to be in relationship. And I know I'm asking you that as a 22 year old.

Luke Hubbard [00:00:17]:
Yeah. I was about to say it's a lot of forward thinking.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:20]:
Right, right. That's okay. I'm not going to hold you to it. I'm just curious.

Luke Hubbard [00:00:23]:
Okay. Well, I like to think that I'm an intelligent person.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:30]:
Okay.

Luke Hubbard [00:00:31]:
And in that sense, I just want to keep learning my whole life and just constantly processing information because that makes. It's like brain food. I feel so good when I'm learning things.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:42]:
Yeah, me too.

Luke Hubbard [00:00:44]:
Like I have said before, I could be a career student if I got paid for it, but I also like to do things like physically, and that doesn't really corroborate with being a career student. Anyways, I like to learn, but I also love to integrate that learning into my life. Like with Dr. Ilardi's lifestyle medicine stuff, you know, that was fascinating to learn about and it's been fascinating to integrate into my life.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:13]:
Sure.

Luke Hubbard [00:01:13]:
And a lot of people and I, I was. This brings me to something else I was thinking is an intelligent person will take the facts and integrate the facts, like word for word, I think.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:25]:
Okay.

Luke Hubbard [00:01:26]:
But a wise person will listen to themselves and how they react to the words and go from there. You know, they'll still use that as like the anchor.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:35]:
Okay.

Luke Hubbard [00:01:36]:
But they'll shift it, you know, five, ten, either way.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:39]:
Sure.

Luke Hubbard [00:01:40]:
So that feels best.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:42]:
Right.

Luke Hubbard [00:01:42]:
Because everyone's body is completely different, you know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:45]:
Right.

Luke Hubbard [00:01:45]:
There is no correct dosage for everyone.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:49]:
Right, Right.

Luke Hubbard [00:01:51]:
So, like, that's not necessarily that I'm an incredibly wise person, but I'm trying to be a wise person. I'm trying to listen to my body and, you know, listen to my relationships and finding that right tune so I can integrate it as best as possible. Like with the lifestyle medicine stuff. How much do I need to exercise? How much sun do need to get? How much sleep do I need to get based on the number that it gives me.

Walker Bird [00:02:26]:
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life. Each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:54]:
Well, hello. Hi. Surprise. This isn't Walker. This is Luke. Luke is my third child. Luke's been on with us before, but it's been about a year and a half. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:07]:
And so Luke Walker is getting ready for trial. Trial starts tomorrow. And so Luke is stepping in today. And then my friend Nancy from outside of Boston, we met on a retreat 15 years ago, will be joining us for the next episode while Walker continues preparing and then executing his trial. So thanks, Luke, for joining me today. Of course. Yes. So probably a month or so ago, you and I were having a conversation around intelligence versus wisdom.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:53]:
And that just because you're intelligent doesn't mean that you're wise.

Luke Hubbard [00:03:59]:
Yes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:04:00]:
And just because maybe your intelligence isn't high doesn't mean you're not wise. Yeah. So tell us more about what was on your mind and what's been on your mind since that conversation.

Luke Hubbard [00:04:18]:
Well, we both know a group of people who are incredibly intelligent. They're all extremely high achievers in their respective fields. And yet them, as a group and as individuals, continuously make poor life choices that harmed them, the people around them.

Theresa Hubbard [00:04:41]:
And.

Luke Hubbard [00:04:43]:
I. Sounds funny, but I was just playing Dungeons and Dragons, and there is a very clear difference in it between intelligence and wisdom. So that's just like the signifier that was in my brain because that's what I was doing at the time. And I had never put words to their actions before because my entire life, we've always just said, well, they're so smart. They're so smart, but we've always known them to continuously make bad decisions, and we didn't really have a word for it. And then just because I was playing D and D, I was like, well, they're not very wise. And that's just when it really flipped a switch my brain that you don't need to be intelligent to be wise. And just because you are intelligent doesn't mean you are wise.

Luke Hubbard [00:05:33]:
They're completely separate, like, independent factors and skills that a person has. They really have no relation to each other. And, you know, I've been thinking about it a good amount, but there is no, like, definitive in my mind, like, separation between the two. It's. I maybe because, like, in everyday language, they're so intensely tied to one another, they basically mean the same thing. But I just couldn't find a definitive, like, this leads to that, and this leads to that. Like, one thing means wise, one thing means intelligence. But the closest I've come, I think, is how, like, tuned in someone is with themselves or their environment.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:23]:
Okay.

Luke Hubbard [00:06:23]:
Like, if someone is tuned in with themselves, they'll make good choices for Their body. You know, someone's tuned in with their environment, they'll make better choices with the people around them or, you know, just staying safe, making good decisions. But being an intelligent person doesn't necessarily lead to that. You know, you could be so wrapped up in whatever is going on inside of your brain that you don't even, like, recognize what's going on with yourself, with other people.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:55]:
Yeah, that's really interesting. I hadn't thought about it that way, but it makes a lot of sense to me. So if you were going to define intelligence, what comes to you when you think about how you would define intelligence?

Luke Hubbard [00:07:26]:
It's such a hard statement because, like, one of the things that comes to mind for me is, like, problem solving. But sometimes intelligent people just make more problems than they're solving.

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:38]:
Okay. Okay.

Luke Hubbard [00:07:42]:
Maybe it would just be intelligences, like the speed at which their mind works.

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:51]:
Okay.

Luke Hubbard [00:07:51]:
Like, not necessarily. Like, not the speed at which their brain is going, but the speed at which they're processing things.

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:58]:
Sure.

Luke Hubbard [00:07:59]:
Because there are people with very fast brains who aren't processing a lot of the information that they're trying to, I think.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:07]:
Sure. Well, it makes me think of what we define as, like, an attention deficit.

Luke Hubbard [00:08:12]:
That's always coming.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:12]:
Right.

Luke Hubbard [00:08:13]:
For me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:13]:
Like, their brain may work really, really fast, but it's not integrating. It stays pretty surfacey. And there's a lot of, I don't know, disagreement about what an attention deficit issue is. But I do remember a training I went to. It was actually my first neurofeedback training where I was talking about how I thought I had an attention issue. And. But when he did the eeg, it didn't show what he would define as an attention issue. And so I was describing, you know, my experience, and he was asking me some questions, and he said, that's not an attention issue.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:55]:
That's a processing. Like, that's. That's how your brain works in regards to processing, how you integrate information. Your brain works fast, but you actually can stay present with the information long enough for it to integrate. Sure, right. Yeah. As opposed to just having a really fast brain who needs a lot of stimulation but isn't necessarily taking in.

Luke Hubbard [00:09:17]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:18]:
A lot of information. So then that creates a struggle for people. Right, right.

Luke Hubbard [00:09:23]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:24]:
As opposed to people whose brains work fast and they're integrating information. Right. I think Chris actually got the first. My first exposure to that was when Chris was tested for ADHD by a computer. Oh, my gosh. Maybe he was 10, 11, 12, 13, I don't remember.

Luke Hubbard [00:09:45]:
20 years ago.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:46]:
Yeah, it was a long time ago. And I remember the. The doctor said, oh, yeah, his brain works really fast, but he comprehends 85% of what he takes in. And so he doesn't actually have an attention issue because he can. He's comprehending it. It just doesn't look like it. He may not act like it, but he actually is taking it in. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:11]:
So anyway, just throwing that out there because I think there's, again, a lot of information about what our brain is and how it processes information and the names that we give what it does.

Luke Hubbard [00:10:25]:
Yes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:25]:
And it's not so clear. So.

Luke Hubbard [00:10:29]:
Yeah. Naming what intelligence is is incredibly difficult. And I'm sure everyone has a different opinion on it, and it's likely a valid opinion. But for me, and based on my intelligence, with my brain and the people that I've experienced throughout my life, and especially in, like, high school and especially in university and with, like, the grad students and postgraduates and the professors that I've interacted with, it's typically the people who can process quickly that stand out in their fields.

Theresa Hubbard [00:11:08]:
Okay. And so for you, then thinking about wisdom, going back to what you were sharing earlier, presence in any particular area that allows that person to be in themselves and in the world.

Luke Hubbard [00:11:36]:
I think both are necessary.

Theresa Hubbard [00:11:37]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Luke Hubbard [00:11:39]:
Because like, a wise professor could be, you know, out in the front of the classroom, and he has to be present of the classroom, of their mood for how he's speaking, you know, and then he has to still be aware of the words that are coming out of his mouth and how those words might affect the class that he's about to speak them to. And that's the most effective professor is who is constantly in tune with the environment and himself. And it's going back and forth, you know, and that professor gets the most out of his class and gives the most to his class, rather than just a professor who could be an incredibly intelligent, informed person.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:21]:
Sure.

Luke Hubbard [00:12:21]:
Who's just throwing information at students.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:24]:
Sure. Yeah.

Luke Hubbard [00:12:26]:
But then again, that could just be social skills. And I don't know if social skills necessarily equate to intelligence.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:32]:
Okay, so.

Luke Hubbard [00:12:33]:
Or wisdom. My bad.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:34]:
Right, right, right. Okay. Now, in your experience, talk a little bit about that. The social skills versus wisdom, how do you imagine that they are potentially similar, but different?

Luke Hubbard [00:12:51]:
Well, similar. Like it's, you know, someone with really, like, high social capabilities does do what I was describing for the wisdom. You know, they're engaging with the person. And maybe the difference is they're not engaging with themselves enough. They're Just trying to get something out of the person but not getting what they need in return. Like, that could be, in my mind, the distinction between wisdom and social intelligence.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:24]:
Okay.

Luke Hubbard [00:13:25]:
Or social skills is because someone with high social skills knows how to get stuff out of people, but might not be getting what they need in return.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:33]:
Sure.

Luke Hubbard [00:13:34]:
If they're wise, they'll be able to balance their relationship. So it's a healthy mix of give and take.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:40]:
Okay. Yeah. That's the word I was thinking of, is reciprocity. You can have high social skills. It doesn't mean that it's reciprocal. Right. That the energy is necessarily flowing both way. You've just learned how to engage, essentially.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:56]:
Yeah. Okay, interesting. There was something I was thinking about when you were talking earlier. Oh. Using professors as examples. I know in the time that you were at ku, there were different professors that you really felt like, I don't know, held that space. And so obviously, Dr. Ilardi, who we've had on the podcast, but who else do you remember standing out as wise?

Luke Hubbard [00:14:38]:
Dr. Majid, who is my Arabic anthropology studies professor. He was a wise man.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:48]:
What. What about him? He.

Luke Hubbard [00:14:51]:
So he was a Moroccan man, he was Muslim, and he was teaching about Islam, and it's such a stigmatized religion in our country.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:03]:
Yeah.

Luke Hubbard [00:15:03]:
But he is so incredibly aware of that, but does not feel shame for who he is. But he, like, still holds the space for, like, helping people through their stigma.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:17]:
Oh, sure, sure.

Luke Hubbard [00:15:18]:
He doesn't just shut it down and be like, no, that's not correct.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:22]:
Right.

Luke Hubbard [00:15:22]:
Or he doesn't try and run from the things that are correct but are shameful in Western societies. You know, and he does. He really tries to explain that fact that there is a difference in culture and how people view the world between Western and Eastern societies or Middle Eastern societies. It's like what we view as right. 95% of the people over there have a different view, and they might view, like, how we interact with their beliefs as wrong.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:56]:
Sure.

Luke Hubbard [00:15:56]:
The same way that we do for theirs. So, like, he would explain stuff like that from his perspective, but integrate it well with our perspectives, and he wouldn't shut us down. And he would just explain and listen and then explain and listen. He would just keep going back and forth. But he was listening and he was explaining, and he was using his breadth of experience to do it. And he wasn't just throwing big words at you.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:20]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. Yeah. It makes me think about a guest that we had on last year. Her name was Linda Howard, and she's coming back On, I think in November or December. And she's an attorney. She practiced in the Northeast and actually spends time in Morocco working on her. Developing herself and more in regards to, you know, being a Muslim.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:54]:
So. Yeah. Really interesting. I'm sure your class was interesting.

Luke Hubbard [00:17:00]:
It was. It was amazing class. I really. I went in just because it seemed interesting, but I probably learned more from that class than I did almost any other anthropology course.

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:14]:
Interesting.

Luke Hubbard [00:17:15]:
Even though I had absolutely no attachment to the area of study before going in. I had never in my anthropology degree studied Middle Eastern society or culture.

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:25]:
Sure.

Luke Hubbard [00:17:25]:
But I learned. So, like, literally on the first day, he said, who here had taken these classes? And I was, like, the only person in the class who didn't raise his hand.

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:34]:
Oh, okay.

Luke Hubbard [00:17:35]:
Because I. I really just. I didn't even know that there were, like, requested prerequisites, but I. Because it was so engaging, I caught up so quickly.

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:47]:
Oh, good, good. That's funny. I didn't know there was. Oh. So, like, he requested that people have certain prerequisites to be in his class.

Luke Hubbard [00:17:59]:
He didn't require them, though.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:01]:
Gotcha.

Luke Hubbard [00:18:01]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:02]:
So that they could hopefully be more engaged in the class. Gotcha. But you hadn't taken those. But he was.

Luke Hubbard [00:18:08]:
Yeah. I didn't even open the course description, and I chose the class, so I didn't even requested it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:15]:
Gotcha. Okay. Okay. But an effective professor.

Luke Hubbard [00:18:19]:
Yes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:19]:
Oh, yeah, yeah. That's great. Anybody else stand out as somebody that you felt like was a wise professor?

Luke Hubbard [00:18:33]:
There are a couple. Not to the level of Majid or Ilardi, though.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:38]:
Yeah, they are.

Luke Hubbard [00:18:41]:
Those two were just, you know, every time I went into the class, I was enthralled. I. I had another one who was, I would say, like, right up there with them is Brent Metz.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:53]:
Yeah, I have met him.

Luke Hubbard [00:18:54]:
Yeah. He had a much bigger classroom than Majeed or a large. So his give and take was much. And it was a lot of freshmen, too.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:07]:
Okay.

Luke Hubbard [00:19:07]:
Because this was an introductory level course, like, you know, five years ago at this point.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:12]:
Okay.

Luke Hubbard [00:19:13]:
But even with probably almost 400 people in the classroom, I still think he did a great job at reading the classroom and then giving the information in a way that was digestible.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:24]:
Okay, great.

Luke Hubbard [00:19:26]:
And it was hard information, too. Like, not, like, hard for people to accept because it was so visceral and real. Like, about how, like, ancient civilizations and ancient cultures and more aboriginal cultures still are today.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:43]:
Interesting.

Luke Hubbard [00:19:44]:
They're so against what we deem as correct in Western society. It's hard for a lot of people in the classroom. Because it's their first exposure to it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:51]:
Sure.

Luke Hubbard [00:19:52]:
But, yeah, I think he did a good job walking the line.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:54]:
Okay. Would those people be people that you also think we would enjoy having on our podcast?

Luke Hubbard [00:20:00]:
The people who are struggling?

Theresa Hubbard [00:20:01]:
No, no, no, no.

Luke Hubbard [00:20:04]:
Brent Mets. Absolutely.

Theresa Hubbard [00:20:05]:
Oh, yeah. Okay.

Luke Hubbard [00:20:06]:
It might be different because they're anthropologists and not psychologists.

Theresa Hubbard [00:20:09]:
Yeah, that's okay.

Luke Hubbard [00:20:10]:
But, yeah, I mean, you do have a lot of weird. Not weird. Well, it's not weird, but different people on this podcast.

Theresa Hubbard [00:20:18]:
We have a variety because we think a variety is.

Luke Hubbard [00:20:22]:
I think it's good.

Theresa Hubbard [00:20:23]:
Is good.

Luke Hubbard [00:20:23]:
Then, yes, both of them would be good. Brent Metz for sure is still at KU. I know Majid transferred universities like a year ago, so I have no idea.

Theresa Hubbard [00:20:33]:
Where he is now. Zoom is a real thing.

Luke Hubbard [00:20:35]:
Yeah, fair enough.

Theresa Hubbard [00:20:36]:
Yeah. Yeah. That's how we interviewed Dr. Ilardi. Was by Zoom. Even though he was in Lawrence. Because he's a busy man.

Luke Hubbard [00:20:43]:
He's a busy man.

Theresa Hubbard [00:20:45]:
Yeah. Yeah. Okay, interesting.

Walker Bird [00:20:49]:
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Theresa Hubbard [00:21:06]:
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Walker Bird [00:21:29]:
Thank you.

Theresa Hubbard [00:21:32]:
Yeah. Okay. I thought that one was pretty good. Okay, sounds good. Okay, check, check. So when you think about going back to the intelligence versus wisdom, how do you feel like that informs you and how you want to walk in the world, how you want to be in relationship. And I know I'm asking you that as a 22 year old.

Luke Hubbard [00:21:55]:
Yeah, I was about to say it's a lot of forward thinking.

Theresa Hubbard [00:21:58]:
Right, right. That's okay. I'm not going to hold you to. Just curious.

Luke Hubbard [00:22:01]:
Okay. Well, I like to think that I'm an intelligent person.

Theresa Hubbard [00:22:08]:
Okay.

Luke Hubbard [00:22:09]:
And in that sense, I just want to keep learning my whole life and just constantly processing information because that makes. It's like brain food. I feel so good when I'm learning things.

Theresa Hubbard [00:22:20]:
Yeah, me too.

Luke Hubbard [00:22:21]:
Like I have said before, I could be a career student if I got paid for it, but I also like to do things like physically, and that doesn't really corroborate with being a career student. Anyways, I like to learn, but I also love to integrate that learning into my life. Like with Dr. Ilardi's lifestyle medicine stuff, you know, there was fascinating to learn about and it's been fascinating to integrate into my life.

Theresa Hubbard [00:22:51]:
Sure.

Luke Hubbard [00:22:51]:
And a lot of people and I, I was. This brings me to something else. I was thinking is an intelligent person will take the facts and integrate the facts, like word for word, I think. Okay, But a wise person will listen to themselves and how they react to the words and go from there. You know, they'll still use that as like the anchor.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:13]:
Okay.

Luke Hubbard [00:23:14]:
But they'll shift it, you know, 5, 10% either way.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:17]:
Sure.

Luke Hubbard [00:23:18]:
For what feels best.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:19]:
Right.

Luke Hubbard [00:23:20]:
Because everyone's body is completely different, you know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:23]:
Right.

Luke Hubbard [00:23:23]:
There is no correct dosage for everyone.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:27]:
Right, right.

Luke Hubbard [00:23:29]:
So like, that's not necessarily that I'm an incredibly wise person, but I'm trying to be a wise person. I'm trying to listen to my body and, you know, listen to my relationships and finding that right tune so I can integrate it as best as possible. Like with the lifestyle medicine stuff. How much do I need to exercise? How much sun do I need to get? How much sleep do I need to get based on the number that it gives me?

Theresa Hubbard [00:24:00]:
Right, right. So for you learning to take information, experiment with it so that you're learning what's best for you at. And your body at this time.

Luke Hubbard [00:24:19]:
Yeah. And I, you know, tying it to research because I know that there are people out there who would struggle, like rationalizing, breaking away from the research and like modifying it for yourself. But the research just gives you the average or the mean. Sure, right, sure. But there are thousands of people who culminate to make that average, and every single one of them had a different number that fit best for them. That's not explicit. Like it is explicit in the research.

Theresa Hubbard [00:24:57]:
Right.

Luke Hubbard [00:24:57]:
But no one's reading the whole research, looking at all the data tables, seeing that. Oh, that number works for me. Me too.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:05]:
Right.

Luke Hubbard [00:25:05]:
But that person's one out of a thousand.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:07]:
Sure, sure.

Luke Hubbard [00:25:08]:
And everyone's one out of a thousand.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:10]:
Right.

Luke Hubbard [00:25:10]:
And not everyone. Like, there are a couple people who fit the mean, but they are just as many as, you know, someone who's 5% off from the mean. Yeah, well, maybe not exactly. I'm not a statistician.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:23]:
Right.

Luke Hubbard [00:25:23]:
But you know, there are differences.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:25]:
Well, sure, absolutely. And I, you know, I think about research is so helpful and it informs us so much and if we take it so literally, even the researcher. Right. Like we can still miss helping ourselves or helping others if we don't remember that the data is spread over a wide period. I remember when you broke your leg. Right. And you broke it through two growth plates.

Luke Hubbard [00:25:56]:
Yes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:56]:
And the doctor who created the study that determined your completed height by the size of your hand. And I don't remember his name.

Luke Hubbard [00:26:15]:
I don't either.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:16]:
But I know that I was concerned about one of your. Because you were still so young when it happened, that your one leg would be significantly shorter than the other. That was my concern. Yeah. And I remember him, you know, continuing to tell me not to worry about it, that you were. He had done the test, that you were pretty much done growing. Were you 5?

Luke Hubbard [00:26:48]:
I was probably 5, 10. And I was 14.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:51]:
Yeah. So. Yeah. And so. And I remember, like, showing him a picture of you standing next to Chris, and I said, well, I don't know that that applies to my son, because this one. The other, the Chris grew through.

Luke Hubbard [00:27:09]:
He was 25. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:11]:
He didn't stop growing for a long time. Right.

Luke Hubbard [00:27:15]:
He was still growing. He's eight years older than me. He still was growing when I was 14.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:21]:
Yeah. And he. I remember the doctor saying, well, I'm not gonna bet you the farm, but I'm pretty much gonna bet you the farm that Luke's done growing. I do remember him saying, Yeah, I.

Luke Hubbard [00:27:33]:
Think that's word for word, actually. Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:37]:
And you're six three. Yeah, yeah, six three.

Luke Hubbard [00:27:41]:
And my legs miraculously ended up the. Like, down to the millimeter, the same length, because my left leg, which I broke, was longer, and now it is the exact same length. So that's serendipitous.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:54]:
Yeah, it did all work out.

Luke Hubbard [00:27:57]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:57]:
Yeah. And I just remember thinking, we have to consider the outliers, too. You know, That's.

Luke Hubbard [00:28:04]:
Yes. When I talk about statistics and, like, biomedical research, it reminds me of this biology seminar I had freshman year, and we were just going over research the entire semester, you know, presenting different research and discussing it. And I had a presentation, and I was talking to my professor who, like, led the seminar. And I was like, but what about these patients? And I don't remember the exact details, but they were, you know, a significant outlier group. Well, he said, well, the research just accounts for them. There's so few that it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. And in my mind, I'm like, well, they do matter.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:48]:
Right.

Luke Hubbard [00:28:49]:
But I understand what he meant for the mean, for the research, they don't matter, but they still exist.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:54]:
Well, they exist, and they absolutely Matter for that individual person.

Luke Hubbard [00:28:58]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:59]:
Right.

Luke Hubbard [00:28:59]:
Which, which the, the disclosure of the fact that there are significant outliers is important because not only for that individual person, but the other individual people who are not one of those thousand people.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:14]:
Right.

Luke Hubbard [00:29:15]:
Because a thousand people is a thousand people. Not very many people in the grand scheme of things.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:21]:
In the grand scheme of things.

Luke Hubbard [00:29:22]:
So there it is not out of, you know, for. If there are a thousand people there, a million people like that in the world.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:27]:
Well, sure.

Luke Hubbard [00:29:28]:
Who are not relating to the average, but are very real people.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:31]:
Yeah. And I think about even, you know, what part of the country is the research being done? Or what country or what country or what age are the people. Right. Like there's so many things that impact outcomes. Yeah. So looking at the research, and I think that's the. Both and which is so difficult for us is like, this can be true and this can be true. Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:59]:
Which we, we don't tend to like that.

Luke Hubbard [00:30:01]:
Yeah. Dichotomous thinking is. Well, that's a bit different, but yeah, I know what you mean. Having two things in your brain at the same time.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:09]:
Yeah. Is that dialectical?

Luke Hubbard [00:30:11]:
I think it would be dialectical because dichotomous is like, it has to be this way or it has to be this. No, that would be dichotomous.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:18]:
Okay, okay, okay.

Luke Hubbard [00:30:20]:
It can't be two things. It has to be this or that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:22]:
Okay, gotcha.

Luke Hubbard [00:30:24]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:25]:
Yeah. Okay. So any other thoughts that you have about the intelligence and wisdom, like for you going forward, what do you want to, I don't know, hold for yourself? How. How do you think you'll keep that top of mind for you as you continue exploring the world?

Luke Hubbard [00:30:51]:
Well, something I've done my entire life, especially like in middle school and high school was just observe. I was very, like, socially absent, I guess. So I would watch other people. So I've gotten pretty good, especially because I've been very social in college at like combining those two aspects of myself and really reading the people that I'm interacting with. And I just want to keep getting better at that because, like, I'm, you know, I think I'm decent at it. But there is so much room to grow, especially if I'm going to go into counseling, the athletic counseling. And there are so many walls that I'll need to be able to help people break down and break down for people. And I need to do that by being able to tune in with them.

Luke Hubbard [00:31:44]:
So I'm just going to keep practicing, I guess, being a better friend, you know, being a better Stranger being a better partner.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:53]:
Yeah. Work that never ends. Yeah, yeah. There was something else that you said, you know, earlier about if you could be a student forever. I think you can be a student forever and not be in college forever.

Luke Hubbard [00:32:11]:
That's true.

Theresa Hubbard [00:32:12]:
Yeah.

Luke Hubbard [00:32:13]:
Because I'm like on the tail end of finishing my third bachelor's and there's just not a lot of, not even close to as much information being thrown at me. So, you know, my brain will just get like foggy if I'm not getting all that information. So I've just started reading research on my own. And that's just something else be doing my entire life, constantly being, being a student. Even if it's just, you know, self led. As long as it is actual, you know, published information, you know, not necessarily. It has to be published. There's always stuff to learn from a bunch of other people.

Theresa Hubbard [00:32:52]:
Always.

Luke Hubbard [00:32:53]:
But right now my framework is still student. My framework for my entire life has been student. So that's something I also need to work on, is branching out, you know, allowing my intelligence to, you know, go frolic in some other fields because I've, you know, been smelling one type of flower my entire life.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:16]:
Yeah, what kind of flower would that be?

Luke Hubbard [00:33:20]:
Well, what's a very standard flower? Just a rose.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:25]:
Sure.

Luke Hubbard [00:33:25]:
I don't know if I don't think most people would want to compare schooling to roses. I don't know, maybe they would say of thorns.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:33]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe so.

Luke Hubbard [00:33:35]:
Maybe so.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:38]:
Yeah. I think, you know, I graduated from graduate school 19 years ago. I don't think I've ever stopped being a student. You know, we're required to get 20 continuing education hours a year and I probably get 80, 100 some years more than that. And that's just the things I keep track of. I mean, one of the things that I like about this profession is that if we want to, we can always learn other ways to help somebody, other ways to connect with somebody, to be, you know, I don't know, more informed about, you know, different ways of living. Kind of like your Arabic anthropology class was, right? Recognizing that even if it seems so different from how we choose to live that there's nothing wrong about it. It's just we all need different things in order for us to try to feel safe, valued, seen, loved, appreciated.

Luke Hubbard [00:35:06]:
And that's wise to allow yourself to do that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:12]:
Yeah. Even though I think in our family systems that can feel threatening to tradition or. Yeah, I guess tradition. Yeah, yeah. I'm Catholic because I was born Catholic, because my parents were born Catholic. Because their parents were born right. Exactly right. You know, as opposed to, you know, is it okay? I mean, I don't consider myself any particular thing right now.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:50]:
I believe and experience a lot of different ways of being connected to what some people call God, you know, and to me, it's about what I remember when Chris was in high school and he was struggling so much with grades. And I remember, for me, this particular day where I chose to shift my focus as a parent, because my. When I was growing up, you just went to college. That's what you were supposed to do. There wasn't any question about it. You just did. And so for me, the focus became grades, though. And maybe because I struggled in high school and college, they weren't.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:00]:
I didn't have great grades. I did fine in graduate school, but I didn't necessarily have great grades in high school or my undergrad. But I put a lot of focus on it initially. And I know you didn't get much of that just because by the time you were around that age, I had shifted, you know, because Chris is eight years older than you.

Luke Hubbard [00:37:23]:
I mean, I didn't get much of that for me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:26]:
I mean, for me. I mean, from me. So when Chris was in high school, I made a shift to what? The most important thing to me as a parent is that you are a kind, compassionate, contributing member of society. That's what became most important to me.

Luke Hubbard [00:37:48]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:49]:
So realizing that, you know, if you guys could have varied experiences, meet different people, explore different things, experiment, you know, is how I think about it, that you would, you know, find what you love doing, because that, to me, is what's most important. Yeah. And I want you to be wise. Oh, I know what I was thinking earlier. I remember when I took the mindfulness based stress reduction course that was developed, I think, by Jon Kabat Zinn. And this has been a while, and you may have seen this, but as part of the training, there was a video where he's speaking in front of a group of people, and he has people come out on the stage, and, like, half the people have white T shirts and half people have black T shirts. Have you seen that video?

Luke Hubbard [00:38:47]:
I don't think so.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:48]:
And so what he basically, he tells the group is to count. And I don't remember exactly, but count how many times the people in the white T shirts throw the basketball back and forth to each other. And so people are really focused on counting. And so the exercise ends, and he asks the group, you know, okay, so how many times did they pass the ball you know, 12, 13, 8, whatever, all these numbers. And then he asks the group, so how many people saw the gorilla come out on stage? Oh, yeah, yeah, You've seen that one, right?

Luke Hubbard [00:39:27]:
I was like, is this going to be the gorilla video?

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:28]:
Right? It is a gorilla video, right? And it's such a fantastic video. Because one of the things, I mean, for me it is because it is really that ability to hold our focus and keep this wide lens at the same time. Right. And that's really what he was teaching, is that we're. We're so focused on how many times the ball gets passed back and forth between the people with the T shirts. We literally don't see the gorilla.

Luke Hubbard [00:39:55]:
Very perceptive to the world around them.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:57]:
Very perceptive to the world around them. And it was shocking. I remember when he went back and played the video to the group and you see a gorilla come out, like jump up and down and then keep walking off stage, and people didn't even see it. Right. So I think we can walk through the world a lot that way. So, yeah. So being wise, being able to. To hold focus and hold the wider lens.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:26]:
So I would say, oh, yeah. Just that ability to be focused and aware. Yeah, yeah. Present and aware, you know? Yeah. It's really. It's a good goal. And I think the people that are trying to do the work realize how difficult it is to get there, but that you can over time develop that skill.

Luke Hubbard [00:40:50]:
It feels good when you recognize that you are actively doing it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:54]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm in this right now doing this. Right. I can observe myself in this process right now. Yeah. Any other final thoughts?

Luke Hubbard [00:41:07]:
I don't think so, no.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:09]:
No. Well, thanks for having the conversation. And just because I forgot to mention this earlier, we are sitting on the floor because the podcast studio is in transition. We're actually moving to a different space in the building and. And the table's gone and the chairs are gone. And so we're sitting on backjacks here on the floor. And so thanks, Luke, for. For not only stepping in for Walker today, but also sitting on the floor.

Luke Hubbard [00:41:42]:
It's been fun.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:42]:
Yeah, good. Thanks for joining us. Yeah, love you.

Luke Hubbard [00:41:45]:
Love you too.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:47]:
Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth, and we strive to be more compassionate every day.