Presence as the Antidote to Rumination
Theresa Hubbard and Walker Bird
“If presence is the antidote to rumination, then every moment of awareness becomes an opening into healing.”
Rumination can feel heavy, circular, and unresolved. But what if presence is the key to breaking that cycle?
In this conversation, Theresa is joined by licensed marriage and family therapist Nancy Yen Cosseron as Walker prepares for trial. They explore how rumination shows up in everyday life, why it can feel protective, and how presence—whether in the form of another person, nature, or simple grounding practices—helps shift us toward healing reflection.
What you’ll learn:
→ How rumination differs from reflection
→ Why the nervous system often fuels repetitive thought cycles
→ Simple ways to bring yourself back into presence and safety
Nancy Yen Cosseron, LMFT, is a licensed marriage and family therapist who brings decades of clinical experience and a compassionate lens to conversations about healing, presence, and relational support.
Episode Links & Resources
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→ Learn more about Nancy Yen Cosseron, LMFT
→ Read The Depression Cure by Dr. Stephen Ilardi
→ Read Waking the Tiger by Peter Levine
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Episode Chapters
00:00 Rumination and presence
02:02 Nancy joins Theresa for today’s conversation
03:23 Rumination as heavy and unresolved
06:39 Shifting rumination into reflection
14:59 A triggering moment and looping thoughts
23:38 Awareness practices and the Mind Bell app
29:55 The tiger story and nervous system healing
38:53 The power of presence in surgery
45:29 Final reflections and hope
Topics we explore in this episode include:
rumination and presence, nervous system healing, self-awareness practices, mindfulness in daily life, nervous system protection, breaking thought cycles, therapeutic lifestyle change, compassionate presence
Episode Transcript
Nancy Yen [00:00:00]:
Right. It makes me think about, you know, presence, if presence is the antidote to rumination. Essentially, rumination is cycling through either your past, thoughts about your past or thoughts about your future. And it feels very basic, but it, it, for me, it's helpful to think very simplistically about it so that I can, like, name it. Like, oh, I'm thinking about, I'm projecting into the future that's not till two weeks from now. Or I'm thinking about the past. I can't do anything about that. Right.
Nancy Yen [00:00:45]:
So it's like, okay, coming back to the present. And it's not easy to do if the trigger is big enough.
Walker Bird [00:00:57]:
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life. Each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:26]:
So Nancy is. Has been a guest and Nancy will be a guest again. We actually have something that we want to talk about maybe later this year or early next year. And. But Walker is in the. The midst of trial, and so Nancy is stepping in to share this space with me so that we can explore a topic while Walker is busy preparing for trial and executing trials. So. Yeah, yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:02:02]:
So thank you, Nancy, for taking time out of your full life to have this conversation.
Nancy Yen [00:02:10]:
So you're welcome. I'm glad to hop in. Hop in and support. Support the conversation.
Theresa Hubbard [00:02:18]:
Yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:02:18]:
Thank you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:02:20]:
So talking about rumination, so Walker and I did some episodes with Dr. Stephen Ilardi, who wrote The Depression Cure. And Dr. Ilardi is part of the therapeutic lifestyle change model, working on rumination as part of what he considers necessary for long term support in regards to depression symptoms. And we had gotten feedback after the podcast that that word was a new word for some of our listeners. And so having this conversation with you, as we are both mental health professionals working with clients who struggle with ruminating and so that. What was that phrase I said, you know, earlier, the. Oh, gosh, the heavy.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:23]:
Isn't that funny? Like where that word, where that phrase go. Oh, rumination feels circular, heavy and unresolved. Yeah, yeah. So when you, Nancy.
Nancy Yen [00:03:42]:
When you, when.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:43]:
You hear that word, despite the Webster Dictionary definitions that you came across, which was also the cows. A cow chewing, swallowing, regurgitating, chewing some more, regurgitating, chewing some more over and over, it's fascinating that that is the definition of rumination, but it Seems incredibly appropriate. What comes to mind for you when you think about your work as a clinician all this time?
Nancy Yen [00:04:23]:
Yeah, it definitely, you know, before I look that up as well, just to prepare for our chat. There's definitely a negative connotation to the word rumination. For very seasoned patrons of therapy, clients who know what the word is, who's done, maybe cbt, you know, they talk about it, you know, astutely, about it being cyclical. It's like, oh, I'm doing it again. And there's awareness of it. There's also some shame attached to it. You know, it's like, oh, I'm ruminating again. I'm doing that again.
Nancy Yen [00:05:07]:
Like that they're doing a bad thing. So, you know, oftentimes I, I think about how that can complicate things because it's like that layer of shame that needs to be kind of like, you know, just, you know, taken out of the equation. Nothing about, you know, it's not a moral thing, you know, that you're ruminating. It's just, it's. It's, you know, an experience of being stuck, you know, in a thought. And once, once the shame is dispelled, we can actually, you know, get to kind of excavating what the rumination is about, because we all do it, you know, myself, you know, because I'm human and we all are. So. So that's what I initially kind of comes to mind.
Nancy Yen [00:06:13]:
And. Yeah, and then I found the definition of chewing, regurging. Chewing. That's kind of yucky, you know, to think about. But there's also need for it for the cow. That's just how they digest. Right, right. But the cyclical nature of being stuck in that dynamic, you know, feels yucky too, you know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:39]:
Yeah, yeah. Can we, can we, can we take our rumination, our thought process, rumination, and shift it enough that it becomes reflection so that there's growth that comes with each regurgitation as opposed to just this non stop cycle, you know, when you were sharing, Nancy, what I was thinking about was, you know, I just think often we don't have an understanding or respect for the physiological part of how our body works. And that rumination can be a protective piece. It can be something that provided us some safety. And I'm not saying every time, but then get, I don't know, maybe too attached to the, the positive impact that we had, you know, in that process of regurgitating and that then that becomes our way of being. Because you still feel safe and protective when, you know, when Often it's not protecting us or keeping us safe. Then we are keeping ourselves stuck and. But understanding that our body plays a part too.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:14]:
I mean, and I just think we often just experience these things as so disconnected when it's just. When it's just all there and it's all playing a part and that we can retrain, you know, our mind to have a different experience.
Nancy Yen [00:08:34]:
Right. It can often be this. Right. Because we're. We're experiencing and re. Experiencing that for a purpose. It's not like it's without reason. And one of the reasons is, as you said, this protective mechanism, you know, that we do.
Nancy Yen [00:08:54]:
And I'm wondering, do you. Do any examples come to mind of, you know, how that could be protective in a way to ruminate?
Theresa Hubbard [00:09:12]:
I'm thinking what came to first was the not hopeful one. Right, right.
Nancy Yen [00:09:20]:
I mean, it can be both, right?
Theresa Hubbard [00:09:22]:
Oh, absolutely.
Nancy Yen [00:09:23]:
Like. Yeah, go ahead.
Theresa Hubbard [00:09:25]:
Yeah, yeah. I think. I mean, what came to mind first was I don't, you know, typically have a hard time, like, sleeping. And I think that's. I mean. I mean, I've gone through different phases in my life for sure. Right now I feel like I. I'm in a pretty good place.
Theresa Hubbard [00:09:50]:
I'm in menopause. I'm taking progesterone at night. That seems to be helpful. I. I sleep pretty deeply. I've been, you know, actively engaged in therapy again the last few years after that trauma I had about five years ago. And so I think I sleep pretty well. And what was interesting was how we can have like, different triggers.
Theresa Hubbard [00:10:18]:
And I. The. The. My kids and I last weekend were loading up a pod to send furniture to Oregon, and we were. Had just begun loading, and I'm in the pod with Cameron and Luke is playing with the door that slides down. And. And I think. I think Cameron must have said something about like, locking us in here and my body, because I have this claustrophobic thing.
Theresa Hubbard [00:10:58]:
Right. And it's really not just like small spaces because that pod was 8 by 8 by 16. So it's even somewhat transparent.
Nancy Yen [00:11:07]:
Like a room size or something.
Theresa Hubbard [00:11:09]:
Like a room. Right, right. And even like the light. Light comes through because of the material it's made out of, so it's not dark right in there. But my body had this, you know, reaction of panic that came and. And I said something about, you know, if you shut that door, I'll kill you. Something like that. You know, the kids, like, they know.
Nancy Yen [00:11:42]:
They like.
Theresa Hubbard [00:11:43]:
No, I'm teasing and I'm not because I would kill you if you locked me in here. But what was interesting is it kind of stuck to me, right. Even though he never closed the door. Right. He. It. He never did. But that then triggered something, like, in my body.
Theresa Hubbard [00:12:04]:
And I was fine the rest of the day. Didn't think about it. I. We're just loading. We're making great progress. And then I get to bed that night and there it is. And so even though it didn't happen, right. Close the door.
Theresa Hubbard [00:12:25]:
It was really the threat of the door being closed. And then my body in this state of, like, deeper. I don't know. Well, non movement, actually. Right. So I'm just. I'm laying there in bed and I'm working on going to sleep. And then my mind says, don't you need to be worried about something? Don't you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:12:48]:
Don't you need to yourself somehow? And then I was awake and I tried, like, my things that I do, you know, to help myself, and those weren't helping. And then. And then it was interesting because then it went crazy. And I started, like, having thoughts about one of the kids having gotten locked in there with all this stuff. I mean, like, it was totally delusional. And. And I. Walker's like, are you okay? And I'm like, no, not right now.
Theresa Hubbard [00:13:23]:
And. And then he's like, are you feeding off, you know, my anxiety? Because he's working on, you know, getting ready for trial. And I was like, maybe that's adding to it. I don't think. I don't think that's all it is. Right. And then. But I, you know, was like, going through this process, and then I started worrying, like, did we pack it too tight? We didn't put the mattress in last.
Theresa Hubbard [00:13:46]:
We put it in first. We did it wrong. We're going to get the pod to Oregon and we're not going to be able to open the door. You know, I mean, like, there was like this process where I'm like, second guessing, you know, like, stuff's going to get broken. We didn't do it well. And I just was having such a hard time, like, getting out of this loop. And it was just feeling heavy. And in my mind, it was somehow connected to protection.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:17]:
Right? So then, like, the next day, I called Luke and I said, hey, you know, is the pod still there? Can you go and check and make sure? Blah, blah, blah. Maybe you could do this. Maybe you could do that. And he's like, it's gonna be fine, Mom. And I was like, yeah, it is gonna be fine. It's gonna be fine. But Then I had to have another conversation with Walker, and I said, hey, babe, I just want you to know that, you know, the kids and I are not movers, and we did not probably do this well, and things are probably going to get broken. And so I just, like.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:59]:
And I just need to say this all out loud so that I can sleep tonight and not worry about this again. Right, right, right. But recognizing that it. It was that trigger around a fear that I had that, like, this whole process snowballed, right? It was in saying it out loud to Luke that was helpful. It was in saying it to Walker out loud that was helpful. And so instead of just in my mind, I made a choice to say something right? And not in any, like, heavy way or burdensome way. Just like. Like, this is what I'm concerned about.
Theresa Hubbard [00:15:49]:
So it is. It's an interesting process that our brain can get into that is. I mean, again, it's protective. You know, if I. If I just do this, if I just do that, then that's going to prevent any future problems. Maybe not. We may get to Oregon next week, and we can't get the door open. But I decided that I'm going to worry about that then, so.
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:22]:
So since I had that conversation with Walker, I don't know, maybe five days ago, it hasn't been on my mind. Just said that. And then I was like, oh, yeah, there was that. That was ruminating, you know, But I was able to actively work through it by saying something out loud. Saying to Walker, when he said, are you okay? And I was like, no, I'm thinking about this. And, you know, and he was like, well, maybe it's some of my anxiety you're picking up on, which, again, it could have been, I'm anxious. He's anxious, right? It's bedtime, right? We're not moving. Our brains.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:05]:
Enter that, you know, state, you know, where we have, you know, typically more theta. We're more suggestible, you know, as we're moving into that sleep state, which is more delta. I mean, I can. And I can think of these things. Like, I know why this is happening right now. I've stopped moving. My brain wants to go to sleep. I'm in this place.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:37]:
Easier for this to happen.
Nancy Yen [00:17:39]:
Right?
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:40]:
Yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:17:41]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:42]:
Yeah. Interesting. So what are you thinking? As I'm sharing that process.
Nancy Yen [00:17:55]:
I'm. I'm appreciative of how, you know, vulnerable you are and willing to share, you know, personal experience of what, you know, recent rumination looks like. And so that's my first. First response is how appreciative I am of that. And it takes a. It takes courage. Because, you know, I think that, you know, I think that so often we. We kind of judge ourselves, you know, when we experience things.
Nancy Yen [00:18:38]:
So then we don't look at it and you're like, hey, this is. This is an example of mine, you know? You know, with big, open arms. That's how I'm picturing it. You know, just saying, hey, this is. This is my experience, and there's nothing to be ashamed about. You know, this is. This is real life.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:00]:
Right.
Nancy Yen [00:19:02]:
So that's. That's my first experience is appreciation.
Walker Bird [00:19:07]:
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Theresa Hubbard [00:19:24]:
Yeah, we really believe that everybody deserves the opportunity to learn healthy relationship skills so that we can get through life having a good, healthy relationship relationship experience. So click the link, put your email in, you'll get the PDF, spend a few hours working on it, and please let us know what your experience is. We know it will benefit you in some way. Thanks.
Walker Bird [00:19:47]:
Thank you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:50]:
Yeah. Okay. I thought that one sort of. Good. Okay, Sounds good. Okay, check, check.
Nancy Yen [00:19:56]:
Another insight that I got, and I don't know if this resonates with you, is that sometimes the things that you're ruminating about may not be the core issue. It might be related, you know, because the initial trigger in your experience was possibly being enclosed and not being able to get out. So, you know, there was that protective mechanism that is very normal.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:32]:
Right, right.
Nancy Yen [00:20:34]:
So, and how that manifested went to other things, you know, not protecting the. The items. You know, maybe it's not going to be packed. Well, what will the move look like? You know, so those ruminations, it's all protective and it's, it's almost. It reminds me of like. It's almost like the. The rock in the puddle or in the. In the pond or, you know, you throw a rock in the still water and it, like ripples out, you know, so it's like the ripples aren't close.
Nancy Yen [00:21:16]:
I mean, you know, the ripples can go out very far, and the rumination, you know, can be anything, really, after the triggering moment.
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:28]:
Right.
Nancy Yen [00:21:29]:
So that's one thought.
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:33]:
Yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:21:33]:
How does that land with you? Does that resonate?
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:36]:
I would guess, you know, if we had, you know, 50 people on the podcast with us. Right. Now, yeah. That it would be. That would be a common experience. Right, right. Why am I ruminating about this? You know, whether we have the awareness that there was a triggering event or not. Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:56]:
We can still be like, why am I ruminating about this?
Nancy Yen [00:22:01]:
Right. Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:02]:
Yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:22:03]:
Yeah. And it can be very tricky, not only for the individual, but for maybe even the therapist who's kind of trying to figure out the source of the rumination. Because we can fixate on, like, talking them out of it, you know?
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:23]:
Right.
Nancy Yen [00:22:23]:
Like, well, that's not really, you know, that's not realistic or that, you know, but we're not talking to the anxiety or to the fear or to the mechanism of protection. You know, the content could be anything. Right. And it doesn't matter what. What the rumination is about, whether it's rational or irrational.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:52]:
Right.
Nancy Yen [00:22:53]:
There's no judgment there. It's. It's like, oh, this is. You know, it feels stuck. You know, this experience keeps coming up and cycling through. Right. And then eventually what helped were conversations. Right.
Nancy Yen [00:23:13]:
Being in relationship.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:15]:
Yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:23:16]:
Having people you trust, you know, even say, like, it's gonna be okay, you know, just being like, ah, Just, you know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:27]:
Yeah. Yeah. Just needing to, you know, to say it. Yeah. Sometimes we have a hard time getting there on there and our. On our own. Yeah. And I do think, you know, I.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:38]:
Years ago, I wish I could remember, Nancy, when I started using the Mind Bell app, but it's been a long time. I mean, it may have been when you and I met, which would have been 15 years ago. The same app is not available. I mean, there is another app out there, but it is not the same app that I used to. But I came across it somehow. I don't remember. Someone probably told me about it. But, you know, you go in, you pick the sound.
Theresa Hubbard [00:24:15]:
It's not an alarm. You set it to go off at it approximately every 30 minutes or hour or whatever. And the approximately is because our brain picks up patterns. And if it's always at the same, you know, time, our brain will actually start to discount it because it won't hear it. And so the approximately part helps our brain not discount it, even though sometimes we still won't hear it. But for me, it was setting a goal. And so when I first started using the Mind Bell app, it was just take a breath. Just make sure you're breathing.
Theresa Hubbard [00:24:58]:
I know we're always breathing, but it's like the deep breath, right?
Nancy Yen [00:25:01]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:25:02]:
Like just being grounded. And then there was that use of it to become aware of, you know, what I was thinking, and it just helped me become aware of what was happening in my mind because I. I wouldn't often recognize it, you know, and so I could be in a kind of ruminating place for probably hours, maybe days before, you know, I would have an awareness like this. Like, how do I get out of this space that I am in? And so, you know, if you hear the. The sound go off. And for me, it's always like a singing, like a brass bowl like sound that I have set up on my app. But when it goes off, know during that period of time when I was trying to learn how to become more aware of my thoughts, it would be, what are you thinking right now? And then what do you. What can you do right now if you're struggling? Some type of action? Maybe it's just getting a drink.
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:10]:
Maybe it's smelling essential oils, maybe. And. And I mean, like, you know, that type of smelling, not the, oh, that smells good. You know, really just kind of really being present. And that's something we were talking about earlier. Is that presence really chain my body.
Nancy Yen [00:26:30]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:31]:
To be here.
Nancy Yen [00:26:34]:
Right, right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:37]:
Yeah. It was such a helpful app for me to drink mind, to be more aware of what I was thinking so that I could choose differently or not. I mean, we don't have.
Nancy Yen [00:26:51]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:51]:
Differently.
Nancy Yen [00:26:54]:
Right, yeah. And. And usually if you become aware and you still don't choose differently, it's still a choice.
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:04]:
Yeah, absolutely. Right.
Nancy Yen [00:27:06]:
Like I'm. I'm still gonna go this direction because whatever. It's a choice.
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:12]:
Right. I'm not done thinking about it. I need to myself a little bit longer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now it's, you know, what is happening for me? Why might that be happening? What is that connected to for me? What is the fear? What am I trying to protect? Right. Like, all of the process now is right when I recognize that I'm ruminating. Not just how do I get out of this, but also what is happening for me. For me, because there's a reason again, body and mind, to think so that it's important or necessary.
Theresa Hubbard [00:28:00]:
Right?
Nancy Yen [00:28:01]:
Yeah. Right. It makes me think about, you know, presence. If presence is the antidote to rumination, essentially, rumination is cycling through either your past, thoughts about your past, or thoughts about your future. And it feels very basic. But it. It, for me, it's helpful to think very simplistically about it so that I can, like, name it. Like, oh, I'm thinking about.
Nancy Yen [00:28:39]:
I'm projecting into the future. That's not till two weeks from now. Or I'm Thinking about the past. I can't do anything about that. Right. So it's like, okay, coming back to the present. And it's not easy to do. If the trigger is big enough, the trigger of that activates the rumination.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:01]:
Right. Yeah. Reflection.
Nancy Yen [00:29:07]:
It reminds me of, you know, as you talk about rumination being kind of one of the key factors that. To the lifestyle.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:19]:
Yeah. Therapeutic. Lifestyle change.
Nancy Yen [00:29:21]:
Therapeutic. Right. That. That's. And that's helpful to think about because there's. It reminds me of one of the theories for depression to healing depression from Peter Levine in his. One of his books. What is it called? The Tiger Waking the Tiger or something.
Nancy Yen [00:29:55]:
Is that it? Was it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:58]:
I can't remember. It's. That sounds familiar. But I'll make sure that we have the right title of the book.
Nancy Yen [00:30:04]:
Yeah, yeah. So. But there's a story that he. He was measuring, you know, he was doing a mindfulness kind of meditation to, you know, support people. He was doing research, essentially. I'm paraphrasing very quickly. The story is that there was a woman that came in, you know, to his clinic and was being observed, and she was like, you know, hooked up to a machine where they evaluated her levels and her nervous system. And what.
Nancy Yen [00:30:44]:
What he was noticing as he was doing the meditation. She. She was. Because she was clinically depressed for decades. Right. Her. Her numbers were going down and down. Like she was already in a very kind of paralyzed place.
Nancy Yen [00:31:04]:
And motivation was very low, you know, if we were to look at the actual behaviors that come with depression. But her numbers were going down. So she was going, like, to a very. What felt like, no, this is the opposite of where you want to be. You actually want to be in a more kind of activated place or more balanced. Right. She was going too far into the parasympathetic. So he just.
Nancy Yen [00:31:35]:
In inspiration, he said. I think her name was Nancy, too. I'm not sure. I could be wrong. But he was like. He said, there's a tiger run or something like that. And she, you know, she was like. And she.
Nancy Yen [00:31:51]:
Her nervous system was. She visualized the tiger and visualized herself running, which is. Would be a very protective thing to do for your nervous system to protect your body. If there was a tiger running after you, you're nervous, it would be wise to run. You know, so she actually needed to activate her sympathetic nervous system.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:19]:
Right, Right.
Nancy Yen [00:32:21]:
And she was, you know, she came back and she wasn't depressed anymore.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:25]:
Wow.
Nancy Yen [00:32:25]:
You know, which was really powerful. So, you know, so one of the theories is that the metaphor that in somatic experiencing training is they. That they use to describe kind of that stuckness in parasympathetic is. It's as if you're pressing the gas and the brakes at the same time. So you're suppressing the natural sympathetic nervous system with the brakes when you need to be more activated. Right. So that creates this kind of shutdown, which is different. Different than.
Nancy Yen [00:33:14]:
Because we go through, you know, like, their natural ebbs and flows in our nervous system. Sometimes we're relaxing, and that's parasympathetic. And then we're active. We're doing things. That's sympathetic. It's very normal. But the shutdown piece is the brakes and the gas at the same time.
Theresa Hubbard [00:33:32]:
Yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:33:33]:
And. And that's, you know, that makes me think about kind of, you know, perhaps another way to look at rumination is your bodies and nervous systems attempt to protect oneself. That was failed before.
Theresa Hubbard [00:33:58]:
Right.
Nancy Yen [00:33:58]:
You know, that didn't complete itself. So that's another, you know, it's reminding me of that. So that's another way to kind of how my brain is understanding rumination, you know, from a nervous system perspective and clinical perspective.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:17]:
Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate that thought. An example. Yeah. I'm relearning that we can do it differently. Yeah. When you're sharing, you know, what came to mind, you know, the polyvagal theory.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:39]:
So the dorsal vagal is like the. The stuck parasympathetic nervous system. And then there's the ventral vagal, which is the healthy parasympathetic part of the sympathetic nervous system, where it is more like presence. Right. Where we are. We can be still and we can be present. And dorsal vagal is more like freeze. You know, we are.
Theresa Hubbard [00:35:07]:
We are stuck in whatever that is. And that the only way we can get from dorsal vagal, the. The. The frozen part into the healthier presence part is through the sympathetic nervous system, which has to be action of some kind.
Nancy Yen [00:35:24]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:35:25]:
We can't just think our way there. That there is something that we need to do. And it can be anything. I mean, me, you know, talking to Walker about, you know, the fear that I was having. Right, Right. You know, was enough to get me, you know, shifted into, you know, a piece about it. Right. As opposed to a ruminative place about it.
Nancy Yen [00:35:51]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:35:51]:
Yeah. So interesting.
Nancy Yen [00:35:57]:
Right. Not being alone in our experience is powerful.
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:03]:
Yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:36:09]:
Component to, you know, supporting our nervous system. We don't. We're not in a vacuum.
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:18]:
Right.
Nancy Yen [00:36:18]:
You know, we're here. We're related.
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:21]:
Yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:36:22]:
We. Yeah. We're Meant to support each other, not do this alone.
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:33]:
Yeah, yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:36:38]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:39]:
It's.
Nancy Yen [00:36:40]:
I wonder. I. You know, I imagine it's probably one of the most powerful ones in terms of access to healing. You know, access to presence is somebody else's presence. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:04]:
Yeah. Share more.
Nancy Yen [00:37:34]:
I'm trying to think of an example. I think when things get hard, having some accompaniment helps make that hard thing less hard. So. So one thing does come to mind is remembering when I had my ectopic emergency. I had an ectopic pregnancy. I knew something was wrong, you know, something was not right. And one day there was a real emergency. There was a rupture, and it was scary.
Nancy Yen [00:38:53]:
I was. I was, on the surface, very calm looking. And as I was, you know, being wheeled into the or, there was a moment of presence with the team. And the main doctor, the main surgeon, you know, the very experienced surgeon was actually prompted to be present by the anesthesiologist. He said the anesthesiologist was, let's, let's huddle. Let's. Let's check in. And everyone just, like, took a breath and was, you know, talking to each other.
Nancy Yen [00:39:47]:
And the attending attendee surgeon leaned into me, and she looked straight into my eyes. She had a mask on, so all I could see were her, like, gorgeous hazel eyes. And she. She was like an angel in that moment because I was so scared. And she said, this is normal, you know, what we're doing. We do this all the time. This is like, you know, part of a drill. And she just looked at me and she told me, you know, when the medicine was coming in.
Nancy Yen [00:40:38]:
And I was like, okay, okay. And I thought she would break eye contact with me. Like, I got the message. But she didn't. She didn't stop looking at me. She just kept eye contact until I went to sleep. And right before I did, I just remembered, like, tearing up. And I was like, is this okay for me to be, you know, emotional? But it was like I was able to release it because she was accompanying me in a very scary moment.
Nancy Yen [00:41:10]:
And as I released my fears, I. I was able to recover quickly post surgery. I mean, I still processed a lot. It was a big loss, but her presence, it felt like very. A unique experience in our medical machine that it feels like sometimes when we're going through surgery. Right. But, yeah, that. That helped my body release it so I didn't have to hold on to it, you know, my fear.
Nancy Yen [00:41:57]:
Yeah, I didn't have to be alone, like, you know, kind of, like, tough. Be tough. Like, okay, they're helping you, you know, like, grin and bear it kind of thing. She just, you know, just saw. Saw into how scary this was. Like, she didn't say anything. There were no words. It was just a sustained presence, eye contact that she was here.
Theresa Hubbard [00:42:31]:
So.
Nancy Yen [00:42:31]:
Yeah. So that's what I. That's what comes to me in terms of accompaniment and how it can be. It's a very powerful way we heal as humans because we're relational. We're meant to be together and support one another.
Theresa Hubbard [00:42:59]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Truly be present with each other.
Nancy Yen [00:43:06]:
Say that again.
Theresa Hubbard [00:43:07]:
Truly be present with each other.
Nancy Yen [00:43:10]:
Yeah. Right. Not just exchange the information and assume that the other person kind of received it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:43:19]:
Right.
Nancy Yen [00:43:20]:
You know?
Theresa Hubbard [00:43:22]:
Yeah, yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:43:26]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:43:29]:
Yeah. We still have so much to learn about presence and what presence is. Yeah. How our body experiences it. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Nancy, as we're wrapping up, you know, when someone has an experience of themselves ruminating, you know, the things that, you know, a few other things that come to mind is nature, you know, going outside, walking barefoot in the grass, you know, other things that we can do to try to get ourselves present. What comes to mind for you when you think about what someone might do to help themselves? Should they not have someone?
Nancy Yen [00:44:21]:
Yeah. I mean, that's such a good point because sometimes there isn't an available human in the moment. Or maybe it doesn't feel safe, you know, none of your relationships at the time you can think of feel safe. Hugging a tree, that's a relationship. The trees alive, you know, the tree is moving very slowly, much slower. But that's a relationship, too. Yeah, yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:01]:
Yeah. Animals, right?
Nancy Yen [00:45:05]:
Animals.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:08]:
Yeah. I would just think animals don't always want to hug, though.
Nancy Yen [00:45:13]:
That's true.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:18]:
Maybe trees don't either, but they just choice about it, like going outside, feeling the wind or thunder, you know, any. How, you know, what comes to mind is really any contrast to what we're. What state we're in. Right. If we're cold, something hot. If we're hot, something cold, something that helps us experience some contrast. Yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:45:51]:
Right. Get you outside of your thinking and into your body, whatever that looks like.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:58]:
Right.
Nancy Yen [00:45:59]:
Yeah. A bath.
Theresa Hubbard [00:46:01]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:46:03]:
Submerging your body in water, even if it's like one of those base. Base tubs. And, you know, if you're a bigger person, just like, oh, right, you know. Yeah. Yeah. That's good.
Theresa Hubbard [00:46:21]:
Yeah. Well, anything else come to mind that you want to touch on before we finish up?
Nancy Yen [00:46:29]:
I don't think so. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:46:32]:
Yeah. Well, thank you for the conversation. Thank you. Sharing the thoughts that you're Sharing of your experience is powerful. I could feel it when you were talking about her never breaking her gaze with you.
Nancy Yen [00:46:49]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:46:50]:
Yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:46:50]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:46:51]:
Yeah. Someone who understands presence and the impact that it has.
Nancy Yen [00:46:58]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:47:00]:
Yeah. Powerful.
Nancy Yen [00:47:03]:
It is. It's. You know, maybe. Maybe I do have a last thought, which is kind of releasing shame around rumination. If you're ruminating, if you catch yourself ruminating that it's your body's best attempt at trying to protect you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:47:24]:
Yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:47:24]:
Even if it doesn't make sense, there's always a reason and it's discoverable.
Theresa Hubbard [00:47:33]:
Yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:47:34]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:47:35]:
It is. With effort and intention. It is.
Nancy Yen [00:47:39]:
Yes. And even. Even if you don't discover the source of the rumination today or tomorrow or months from now, you still can have presence. You can still have breaks from the rumination that's possible for you and that you deserve that. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:48:06]:
Yeah. So, yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:48:08]:
Those are my last thoughts.
Theresa Hubbard [00:48:11]:
Thank you. Hope. We need hope.
Nancy Yen [00:48:14]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:48:15]:
It could be different. That we can train ourselves, our mind, our body into having different. Yeah. Well, thank you for today, Nancy. I appreciate it and I love you.
Nancy Yen [00:48:30]:
I love you too. Thank you for inviting me.
Theresa Hubbard [00:48:34]:
Yeah, anytime. And I look forward to the next conversation where Walker joins us. We have more to share. Yes.
Nancy Yen [00:48:44]:
Looking forward to that. Excited.
Theresa Hubbard [00:48:48]:
Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth and we strive to be more compassionate every day.
Right. It makes me think about, you know, presence, if presence is the antidote to rumination. Essentially, rumination is cycling through either your past, thoughts about your past or thoughts about your future. And it feels very basic, but it, it, for me, it's helpful to think very simplistically about it so that I can, like, name it. Like, oh, I'm thinking about, I'm projecting into the future that's not till two weeks from now. Or I'm thinking about the past. I can't do anything about that. Right.
Nancy Yen [00:00:45]:
So it's like, okay, coming back to the present. And it's not easy to do if the trigger is big enough.
Walker Bird [00:00:57]:
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life. Each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:26]:
So Nancy is. Has been a guest and Nancy will be a guest again. We actually have something that we want to talk about maybe later this year or early next year. And. But Walker is in the. The midst of trial, and so Nancy is stepping in to share this space with me so that we can explore a topic while Walker is busy preparing for trial and executing trials. So. Yeah, yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:02:02]:
So thank you, Nancy, for taking time out of your full life to have this conversation.
Nancy Yen [00:02:10]:
So you're welcome. I'm glad to hop in. Hop in and support. Support the conversation.
Theresa Hubbard [00:02:18]:
Yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:02:18]:
Thank you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:02:20]:
So talking about rumination, so Walker and I did some episodes with Dr. Stephen Ilardi, who wrote The Depression Cure. And Dr. Ilardi is part of the therapeutic lifestyle change model, working on rumination as part of what he considers necessary for long term support in regards to depression symptoms. And we had gotten feedback after the podcast that that word was a new word for some of our listeners. And so having this conversation with you, as we are both mental health professionals working with clients who struggle with ruminating and so that. What was that phrase I said, you know, earlier, the. Oh, gosh, the heavy.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:23]:
Isn't that funny? Like where that word, where that phrase go. Oh, rumination feels circular, heavy and unresolved. Yeah, yeah. So when you, Nancy.
Nancy Yen [00:03:42]:
When you, when.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:43]:
You hear that word, despite the Webster Dictionary definitions that you came across, which was also the cows. A cow chewing, swallowing, regurgitating, chewing some more, regurgitating, chewing some more over and over, it's fascinating that that is the definition of rumination, but it Seems incredibly appropriate. What comes to mind for you when you think about your work as a clinician all this time?
Nancy Yen [00:04:23]:
Yeah, it definitely, you know, before I look that up as well, just to prepare for our chat. There's definitely a negative connotation to the word rumination. For very seasoned patrons of therapy, clients who know what the word is, who's done, maybe cbt, you know, they talk about it, you know, astutely, about it being cyclical. It's like, oh, I'm doing it again. And there's awareness of it. There's also some shame attached to it. You know, it's like, oh, I'm ruminating again. I'm doing that again.
Nancy Yen [00:05:07]:
Like that they're doing a bad thing. So, you know, oftentimes I, I think about how that can complicate things because it's like that layer of shame that needs to be kind of like, you know, just, you know, taken out of the equation. Nothing about, you know, it's not a moral thing, you know, that you're ruminating. It's just, it's. It's, you know, an experience of being stuck, you know, in a thought. And once, once the shame is dispelled, we can actually, you know, get to kind of excavating what the rumination is about, because we all do it, you know, myself, you know, because I'm human and we all are. So. So that's what I initially kind of comes to mind.
Nancy Yen [00:06:13]:
And. Yeah, and then I found the definition of chewing, regurging. Chewing. That's kind of yucky, you know, to think about. But there's also need for it for the cow. That's just how they digest. Right, right. But the cyclical nature of being stuck in that dynamic, you know, feels yucky too, you know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:39]:
Yeah, yeah. Can we, can we, can we take our rumination, our thought process, rumination, and shift it enough that it becomes reflection so that there's growth that comes with each regurgitation as opposed to just this non stop cycle, you know, when you were sharing, Nancy, what I was thinking about was, you know, I just think often we don't have an understanding or respect for the physiological part of how our body works. And that rumination can be a protective piece. It can be something that provided us some safety. And I'm not saying every time, but then get, I don't know, maybe too attached to the, the positive impact that we had, you know, in that process of regurgitating and that then that becomes our way of being. Because you still feel safe and protective when, you know, when Often it's not protecting us or keeping us safe. Then we are keeping ourselves stuck and. But understanding that our body plays a part too.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:14]:
I mean, and I just think we often just experience these things as so disconnected when it's just. When it's just all there and it's all playing a part and that we can retrain, you know, our mind to have a different experience.
Nancy Yen [00:08:34]:
Right. It can often be this. Right. Because we're. We're experiencing and re. Experiencing that for a purpose. It's not like it's without reason. And one of the reasons is, as you said, this protective mechanism, you know, that we do.
Nancy Yen [00:08:54]:
And I'm wondering, do you. Do any examples come to mind of, you know, how that could be protective in a way to ruminate?
Theresa Hubbard [00:09:12]:
I'm thinking what came to first was the not hopeful one. Right, right.
Nancy Yen [00:09:20]:
I mean, it can be both, right?
Theresa Hubbard [00:09:22]:
Oh, absolutely.
Nancy Yen [00:09:23]:
Like. Yeah, go ahead.
Theresa Hubbard [00:09:25]:
Yeah, yeah. I think. I mean, what came to mind first was I don't, you know, typically have a hard time, like, sleeping. And I think that's. I mean. I mean, I've gone through different phases in my life for sure. Right now I feel like I. I'm in a pretty good place.
Theresa Hubbard [00:09:50]:
I'm in menopause. I'm taking progesterone at night. That seems to be helpful. I. I sleep pretty deeply. I've been, you know, actively engaged in therapy again the last few years after that trauma I had about five years ago. And so I think I sleep pretty well. And what was interesting was how we can have like, different triggers.
Theresa Hubbard [00:10:18]:
And I. The. The. My kids and I last weekend were loading up a pod to send furniture to Oregon, and we were. Had just begun loading, and I'm in the pod with Cameron and Luke is playing with the door that slides down. And. And I think. I think Cameron must have said something about like, locking us in here and my body, because I have this claustrophobic thing.
Theresa Hubbard [00:10:58]:
Right. And it's really not just like small spaces because that pod was 8 by 8 by 16. So it's even somewhat transparent.
Nancy Yen [00:11:07]:
Like a room size or something.
Theresa Hubbard [00:11:09]:
Like a room. Right, right. And even like the light. Light comes through because of the material it's made out of, so it's not dark right in there. But my body had this, you know, reaction of panic that came and. And I said something about, you know, if you shut that door, I'll kill you. Something like that. You know, the kids, like, they know.
Nancy Yen [00:11:42]:
They like.
Theresa Hubbard [00:11:43]:
No, I'm teasing and I'm not because I would kill you if you locked me in here. But what was interesting is it kind of stuck to me, right. Even though he never closed the door. Right. He. It. He never did. But that then triggered something, like, in my body.
Theresa Hubbard [00:12:04]:
And I was fine the rest of the day. Didn't think about it. I. We're just loading. We're making great progress. And then I get to bed that night and there it is. And so even though it didn't happen, right. Close the door.
Theresa Hubbard [00:12:25]:
It was really the threat of the door being closed. And then my body in this state of, like, deeper. I don't know. Well, non movement, actually. Right. So I'm just. I'm laying there in bed and I'm working on going to sleep. And then my mind says, don't you need to be worried about something? Don't you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:12:48]:
Don't you need to yourself somehow? And then I was awake and I tried, like, my things that I do, you know, to help myself, and those weren't helping. And then. And then it was interesting because then it went crazy. And I started, like, having thoughts about one of the kids having gotten locked in there with all this stuff. I mean, like, it was totally delusional. And. And I. Walker's like, are you okay? And I'm like, no, not right now.
Theresa Hubbard [00:13:23]:
And. And then he's like, are you feeding off, you know, my anxiety? Because he's working on, you know, getting ready for trial. And I was like, maybe that's adding to it. I don't think. I don't think that's all it is. Right. And then. But I, you know, was like, going through this process, and then I started worrying, like, did we pack it too tight? We didn't put the mattress in last.
Theresa Hubbard [00:13:46]:
We put it in first. We did it wrong. We're going to get the pod to Oregon and we're not going to be able to open the door. You know, I mean, like, there was like this process where I'm like, second guessing, you know, like, stuff's going to get broken. We didn't do it well. And I just was having such a hard time, like, getting out of this loop. And it was just feeling heavy. And in my mind, it was somehow connected to protection.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:17]:
Right? So then, like, the next day, I called Luke and I said, hey, you know, is the pod still there? Can you go and check and make sure? Blah, blah, blah. Maybe you could do this. Maybe you could do that. And he's like, it's gonna be fine, Mom. And I was like, yeah, it is gonna be fine. It's gonna be fine. But Then I had to have another conversation with Walker, and I said, hey, babe, I just want you to know that, you know, the kids and I are not movers, and we did not probably do this well, and things are probably going to get broken. And so I just, like.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:59]:
And I just need to say this all out loud so that I can sleep tonight and not worry about this again. Right, right, right. But recognizing that it. It was that trigger around a fear that I had that, like, this whole process snowballed, right? It was in saying it out loud to Luke that was helpful. It was in saying it to Walker out loud that was helpful. And so instead of just in my mind, I made a choice to say something right? And not in any, like, heavy way or burdensome way. Just like. Like, this is what I'm concerned about.
Theresa Hubbard [00:15:49]:
So it is. It's an interesting process that our brain can get into that is. I mean, again, it's protective. You know, if I. If I just do this, if I just do that, then that's going to prevent any future problems. Maybe not. We may get to Oregon next week, and we can't get the door open. But I decided that I'm going to worry about that then, so.
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:22]:
So since I had that conversation with Walker, I don't know, maybe five days ago, it hasn't been on my mind. Just said that. And then I was like, oh, yeah, there was that. That was ruminating, you know, But I was able to actively work through it by saying something out loud. Saying to Walker, when he said, are you okay? And I was like, no, I'm thinking about this. And, you know, and he was like, well, maybe it's some of my anxiety you're picking up on, which, again, it could have been, I'm anxious. He's anxious, right? It's bedtime, right? We're not moving. Our brains.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:05]:
Enter that, you know, state, you know, where we have, you know, typically more theta. We're more suggestible, you know, as we're moving into that sleep state, which is more delta. I mean, I can. And I can think of these things. Like, I know why this is happening right now. I've stopped moving. My brain wants to go to sleep. I'm in this place.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:37]:
Easier for this to happen.
Nancy Yen [00:17:39]:
Right?
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:40]:
Yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:17:41]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:42]:
Yeah. Interesting. So what are you thinking? As I'm sharing that process.
Nancy Yen [00:17:55]:
I'm. I'm appreciative of how, you know, vulnerable you are and willing to share, you know, personal experience of what, you know, recent rumination looks like. And so that's my first. First response is how appreciative I am of that. And it takes a. It takes courage. Because, you know, I think that, you know, I think that so often we. We kind of judge ourselves, you know, when we experience things.
Nancy Yen [00:18:38]:
So then we don't look at it and you're like, hey, this is. This is an example of mine, you know? You know, with big, open arms. That's how I'm picturing it. You know, just saying, hey, this is. This is my experience, and there's nothing to be ashamed about. You know, this is. This is real life.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:00]:
Right.
Nancy Yen [00:19:02]:
So that's. That's my first experience is appreciation.
Walker Bird [00:19:07]:
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Theresa Hubbard [00:19:24]:
Yeah, we really believe that everybody deserves the opportunity to learn healthy relationship skills so that we can get through life having a good, healthy relationship relationship experience. So click the link, put your email in, you'll get the PDF, spend a few hours working on it, and please let us know what your experience is. We know it will benefit you in some way. Thanks.
Walker Bird [00:19:47]:
Thank you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:50]:
Yeah. Okay. I thought that one sort of. Good. Okay, Sounds good. Okay, check, check.
Nancy Yen [00:19:56]:
Another insight that I got, and I don't know if this resonates with you, is that sometimes the things that you're ruminating about may not be the core issue. It might be related, you know, because the initial trigger in your experience was possibly being enclosed and not being able to get out. So, you know, there was that protective mechanism that is very normal.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:32]:
Right, right.
Nancy Yen [00:20:34]:
So, and how that manifested went to other things, you know, not protecting the. The items. You know, maybe it's not going to be packed. Well, what will the move look like? You know, so those ruminations, it's all protective and it's, it's almost. It reminds me of like. It's almost like the. The rock in the puddle or in the. In the pond or, you know, you throw a rock in the still water and it, like ripples out, you know, so it's like the ripples aren't close.
Nancy Yen [00:21:16]:
I mean, you know, the ripples can go out very far, and the rumination, you know, can be anything, really, after the triggering moment.
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:28]:
Right.
Nancy Yen [00:21:29]:
So that's one thought.
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:33]:
Yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:21:33]:
How does that land with you? Does that resonate?
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:36]:
I would guess, you know, if we had, you know, 50 people on the podcast with us. Right. Now, yeah. That it would be. That would be a common experience. Right, right. Why am I ruminating about this? You know, whether we have the awareness that there was a triggering event or not. Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:56]:
We can still be like, why am I ruminating about this?
Nancy Yen [00:22:01]:
Right. Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:02]:
Yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:22:03]:
Yeah. And it can be very tricky, not only for the individual, but for maybe even the therapist who's kind of trying to figure out the source of the rumination. Because we can fixate on, like, talking them out of it, you know?
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:23]:
Right.
Nancy Yen [00:22:23]:
Like, well, that's not really, you know, that's not realistic or that, you know, but we're not talking to the anxiety or to the fear or to the mechanism of protection. You know, the content could be anything. Right. And it doesn't matter what. What the rumination is about, whether it's rational or irrational.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:52]:
Right.
Nancy Yen [00:22:53]:
There's no judgment there. It's. It's like, oh, this is. You know, it feels stuck. You know, this experience keeps coming up and cycling through. Right. And then eventually what helped were conversations. Right.
Nancy Yen [00:23:13]:
Being in relationship.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:15]:
Yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:23:16]:
Having people you trust, you know, even say, like, it's gonna be okay, you know, just being like, ah, Just, you know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:27]:
Yeah. Yeah. Just needing to, you know, to say it. Yeah. Sometimes we have a hard time getting there on there and our. On our own. Yeah. And I do think, you know, I.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:38]:
Years ago, I wish I could remember, Nancy, when I started using the Mind Bell app, but it's been a long time. I mean, it may have been when you and I met, which would have been 15 years ago. The same app is not available. I mean, there is another app out there, but it is not the same app that I used to. But I came across it somehow. I don't remember. Someone probably told me about it. But, you know, you go in, you pick the sound.
Theresa Hubbard [00:24:15]:
It's not an alarm. You set it to go off at it approximately every 30 minutes or hour or whatever. And the approximately is because our brain picks up patterns. And if it's always at the same, you know, time, our brain will actually start to discount it because it won't hear it. And so the approximately part helps our brain not discount it, even though sometimes we still won't hear it. But for me, it was setting a goal. And so when I first started using the Mind Bell app, it was just take a breath. Just make sure you're breathing.
Theresa Hubbard [00:24:58]:
I know we're always breathing, but it's like the deep breath, right?
Nancy Yen [00:25:01]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:25:02]:
Like just being grounded. And then there was that use of it to become aware of, you know, what I was thinking, and it just helped me become aware of what was happening in my mind because I. I wouldn't often recognize it, you know, and so I could be in a kind of ruminating place for probably hours, maybe days before, you know, I would have an awareness like this. Like, how do I get out of this space that I am in? And so, you know, if you hear the. The sound go off. And for me, it's always like a singing, like a brass bowl like sound that I have set up on my app. But when it goes off, know during that period of time when I was trying to learn how to become more aware of my thoughts, it would be, what are you thinking right now? And then what do you. What can you do right now if you're struggling? Some type of action? Maybe it's just getting a drink.
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:10]:
Maybe it's smelling essential oils, maybe. And. And I mean, like, you know, that type of smelling, not the, oh, that smells good. You know, really just kind of really being present. And that's something we were talking about earlier. Is that presence really chain my body.
Nancy Yen [00:26:30]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:31]:
To be here.
Nancy Yen [00:26:34]:
Right, right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:37]:
Yeah. It was such a helpful app for me to drink mind, to be more aware of what I was thinking so that I could choose differently or not. I mean, we don't have.
Nancy Yen [00:26:51]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:51]:
Differently.
Nancy Yen [00:26:54]:
Right, yeah. And. And usually if you become aware and you still don't choose differently, it's still a choice.
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:04]:
Yeah, absolutely. Right.
Nancy Yen [00:27:06]:
Like I'm. I'm still gonna go this direction because whatever. It's a choice.
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:12]:
Right. I'm not done thinking about it. I need to myself a little bit longer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now it's, you know, what is happening for me? Why might that be happening? What is that connected to for me? What is the fear? What am I trying to protect? Right. Like, all of the process now is right when I recognize that I'm ruminating. Not just how do I get out of this, but also what is happening for me. For me, because there's a reason again, body and mind, to think so that it's important or necessary.
Theresa Hubbard [00:28:00]:
Right?
Nancy Yen [00:28:01]:
Yeah. Right. It makes me think about, you know, presence. If presence is the antidote to rumination, essentially, rumination is cycling through either your past, thoughts about your past, or thoughts about your future. And it feels very basic. But it. It, for me, it's helpful to think very simplistically about it so that I can, like, name it. Like, oh, I'm thinking about.
Nancy Yen [00:28:39]:
I'm projecting into the future. That's not till two weeks from now. Or I'm Thinking about the past. I can't do anything about that. Right. So it's like, okay, coming back to the present. And it's not easy to do. If the trigger is big enough, the trigger of that activates the rumination.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:01]:
Right. Yeah. Reflection.
Nancy Yen [00:29:07]:
It reminds me of, you know, as you talk about rumination being kind of one of the key factors that. To the lifestyle.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:19]:
Yeah. Therapeutic. Lifestyle change.
Nancy Yen [00:29:21]:
Therapeutic. Right. That. That's. And that's helpful to think about because there's. It reminds me of one of the theories for depression to healing depression from Peter Levine in his. One of his books. What is it called? The Tiger Waking the Tiger or something.
Nancy Yen [00:29:55]:
Is that it? Was it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:58]:
I can't remember. It's. That sounds familiar. But I'll make sure that we have the right title of the book.
Nancy Yen [00:30:04]:
Yeah, yeah. So. But there's a story that he. He was measuring, you know, he was doing a mindfulness kind of meditation to, you know, support people. He was doing research, essentially. I'm paraphrasing very quickly. The story is that there was a woman that came in, you know, to his clinic and was being observed, and she was like, you know, hooked up to a machine where they evaluated her levels and her nervous system. And what.
Nancy Yen [00:30:44]:
What he was noticing as he was doing the meditation. She. She was. Because she was clinically depressed for decades. Right. Her. Her numbers were going down and down. Like she was already in a very kind of paralyzed place.
Nancy Yen [00:31:04]:
And motivation was very low, you know, if we were to look at the actual behaviors that come with depression. But her numbers were going down. So she was going, like, to a very. What felt like, no, this is the opposite of where you want to be. You actually want to be in a more kind of activated place or more balanced. Right. She was going too far into the parasympathetic. So he just.
Nancy Yen [00:31:35]:
In inspiration, he said. I think her name was Nancy, too. I'm not sure. I could be wrong. But he was like. He said, there's a tiger run or something like that. And she, you know, she was like. And she.
Nancy Yen [00:31:51]:
Her nervous system was. She visualized the tiger and visualized herself running, which is. Would be a very protective thing to do for your nervous system to protect your body. If there was a tiger running after you, you're nervous, it would be wise to run. You know, so she actually needed to activate her sympathetic nervous system.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:19]:
Right, Right.
Nancy Yen [00:32:21]:
And she was, you know, she came back and she wasn't depressed anymore.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:25]:
Wow.
Nancy Yen [00:32:25]:
You know, which was really powerful. So, you know, so one of the theories is that the metaphor that in somatic experiencing training is they. That they use to describe kind of that stuckness in parasympathetic is. It's as if you're pressing the gas and the brakes at the same time. So you're suppressing the natural sympathetic nervous system with the brakes when you need to be more activated. Right. So that creates this kind of shutdown, which is different. Different than.
Nancy Yen [00:33:14]:
Because we go through, you know, like, their natural ebbs and flows in our nervous system. Sometimes we're relaxing, and that's parasympathetic. And then we're active. We're doing things. That's sympathetic. It's very normal. But the shutdown piece is the brakes and the gas at the same time.
Theresa Hubbard [00:33:32]:
Yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:33:33]:
And. And that's, you know, that makes me think about kind of, you know, perhaps another way to look at rumination is your bodies and nervous systems attempt to protect oneself. That was failed before.
Theresa Hubbard [00:33:58]:
Right.
Nancy Yen [00:33:58]:
You know, that didn't complete itself. So that's another, you know, it's reminding me of that. So that's another way to kind of how my brain is understanding rumination, you know, from a nervous system perspective and clinical perspective.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:17]:
Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate that thought. An example. Yeah. I'm relearning that we can do it differently. Yeah. When you're sharing, you know, what came to mind, you know, the polyvagal theory.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:39]:
So the dorsal vagal is like the. The stuck parasympathetic nervous system. And then there's the ventral vagal, which is the healthy parasympathetic part of the sympathetic nervous system, where it is more like presence. Right. Where we are. We can be still and we can be present. And dorsal vagal is more like freeze. You know, we are.
Theresa Hubbard [00:35:07]:
We are stuck in whatever that is. And that the only way we can get from dorsal vagal, the. The. The frozen part into the healthier presence part is through the sympathetic nervous system, which has to be action of some kind.
Nancy Yen [00:35:24]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:35:25]:
We can't just think our way there. That there is something that we need to do. And it can be anything. I mean, me, you know, talking to Walker about, you know, the fear that I was having. Right, Right. You know, was enough to get me, you know, shifted into, you know, a piece about it. Right. As opposed to a ruminative place about it.
Nancy Yen [00:35:51]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:35:51]:
Yeah. So interesting.
Nancy Yen [00:35:57]:
Right. Not being alone in our experience is powerful.
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:03]:
Yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:36:09]:
Component to, you know, supporting our nervous system. We don't. We're not in a vacuum.
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:18]:
Right.
Nancy Yen [00:36:18]:
You know, we're here. We're related.
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:21]:
Yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:36:22]:
We. Yeah. We're Meant to support each other, not do this alone.
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:33]:
Yeah, yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:36:38]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:39]:
It's.
Nancy Yen [00:36:40]:
I wonder. I. You know, I imagine it's probably one of the most powerful ones in terms of access to healing. You know, access to presence is somebody else's presence. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:04]:
Yeah. Share more.
Nancy Yen [00:37:34]:
I'm trying to think of an example. I think when things get hard, having some accompaniment helps make that hard thing less hard. So. So one thing does come to mind is remembering when I had my ectopic emergency. I had an ectopic pregnancy. I knew something was wrong, you know, something was not right. And one day there was a real emergency. There was a rupture, and it was scary.
Nancy Yen [00:38:53]:
I was. I was, on the surface, very calm looking. And as I was, you know, being wheeled into the or, there was a moment of presence with the team. And the main doctor, the main surgeon, you know, the very experienced surgeon was actually prompted to be present by the anesthesiologist. He said the anesthesiologist was, let's, let's huddle. Let's. Let's check in. And everyone just, like, took a breath and was, you know, talking to each other.
Nancy Yen [00:39:47]:
And the attending attendee surgeon leaned into me, and she looked straight into my eyes. She had a mask on, so all I could see were her, like, gorgeous hazel eyes. And she. She was like an angel in that moment because I was so scared. And she said, this is normal, you know, what we're doing. We do this all the time. This is like, you know, part of a drill. And she just looked at me and she told me, you know, when the medicine was coming in.
Nancy Yen [00:40:38]:
And I was like, okay, okay. And I thought she would break eye contact with me. Like, I got the message. But she didn't. She didn't stop looking at me. She just kept eye contact until I went to sleep. And right before I did, I just remembered, like, tearing up. And I was like, is this okay for me to be, you know, emotional? But it was like I was able to release it because she was accompanying me in a very scary moment.
Nancy Yen [00:41:10]:
And as I released my fears, I. I was able to recover quickly post surgery. I mean, I still processed a lot. It was a big loss, but her presence, it felt like very. A unique experience in our medical machine that it feels like sometimes when we're going through surgery. Right. But, yeah, that. That helped my body release it so I didn't have to hold on to it, you know, my fear.
Nancy Yen [00:41:57]:
Yeah, I didn't have to be alone, like, you know, kind of, like, tough. Be tough. Like, okay, they're helping you, you know, like, grin and bear it kind of thing. She just, you know, just saw. Saw into how scary this was. Like, she didn't say anything. There were no words. It was just a sustained presence, eye contact that she was here.
Theresa Hubbard [00:42:31]:
So.
Nancy Yen [00:42:31]:
Yeah. So that's what I. That's what comes to me in terms of accompaniment and how it can be. It's a very powerful way we heal as humans because we're relational. We're meant to be together and support one another.
Theresa Hubbard [00:42:59]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Truly be present with each other.
Nancy Yen [00:43:06]:
Say that again.
Theresa Hubbard [00:43:07]:
Truly be present with each other.
Nancy Yen [00:43:10]:
Yeah. Right. Not just exchange the information and assume that the other person kind of received it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:43:19]:
Right.
Nancy Yen [00:43:20]:
You know?
Theresa Hubbard [00:43:22]:
Yeah, yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:43:26]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:43:29]:
Yeah. We still have so much to learn about presence and what presence is. Yeah. How our body experiences it. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Nancy, as we're wrapping up, you know, when someone has an experience of themselves ruminating, you know, the things that, you know, a few other things that come to mind is nature, you know, going outside, walking barefoot in the grass, you know, other things that we can do to try to get ourselves present. What comes to mind for you when you think about what someone might do to help themselves? Should they not have someone?
Nancy Yen [00:44:21]:
Yeah. I mean, that's such a good point because sometimes there isn't an available human in the moment. Or maybe it doesn't feel safe, you know, none of your relationships at the time you can think of feel safe. Hugging a tree, that's a relationship. The trees alive, you know, the tree is moving very slowly, much slower. But that's a relationship, too. Yeah, yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:01]:
Yeah. Animals, right?
Nancy Yen [00:45:05]:
Animals.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:08]:
Yeah. I would just think animals don't always want to hug, though.
Nancy Yen [00:45:13]:
That's true.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:18]:
Maybe trees don't either, but they just choice about it, like going outside, feeling the wind or thunder, you know, any. How, you know, what comes to mind is really any contrast to what we're. What state we're in. Right. If we're cold, something hot. If we're hot, something cold, something that helps us experience some contrast. Yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:45:51]:
Right. Get you outside of your thinking and into your body, whatever that looks like.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:58]:
Right.
Nancy Yen [00:45:59]:
Yeah. A bath.
Theresa Hubbard [00:46:01]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:46:03]:
Submerging your body in water, even if it's like one of those base. Base tubs. And, you know, if you're a bigger person, just like, oh, right, you know. Yeah. Yeah. That's good.
Theresa Hubbard [00:46:21]:
Yeah. Well, anything else come to mind that you want to touch on before we finish up?
Nancy Yen [00:46:29]:
I don't think so. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:46:32]:
Yeah. Well, thank you for the conversation. Thank you. Sharing the thoughts that you're Sharing of your experience is powerful. I could feel it when you were talking about her never breaking her gaze with you.
Nancy Yen [00:46:49]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:46:50]:
Yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:46:50]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:46:51]:
Yeah. Someone who understands presence and the impact that it has.
Nancy Yen [00:46:58]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:47:00]:
Yeah. Powerful.
Nancy Yen [00:47:03]:
It is. It's. You know, maybe. Maybe I do have a last thought, which is kind of releasing shame around rumination. If you're ruminating, if you catch yourself ruminating that it's your body's best attempt at trying to protect you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:47:24]:
Yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:47:24]:
Even if it doesn't make sense, there's always a reason and it's discoverable.
Theresa Hubbard [00:47:33]:
Yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:47:34]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:47:35]:
It is. With effort and intention. It is.
Nancy Yen [00:47:39]:
Yes. And even. Even if you don't discover the source of the rumination today or tomorrow or months from now, you still can have presence. You can still have breaks from the rumination that's possible for you and that you deserve that. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:48:06]:
Yeah. So, yeah.
Nancy Yen [00:48:08]:
Those are my last thoughts.
Theresa Hubbard [00:48:11]:
Thank you. Hope. We need hope.
Nancy Yen [00:48:14]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:48:15]:
It could be different. That we can train ourselves, our mind, our body into having different. Yeah. Well, thank you for today, Nancy. I appreciate it and I love you.
Nancy Yen [00:48:30]:
I love you too. Thank you for inviting me.
Theresa Hubbard [00:48:34]:
Yeah, anytime. And I look forward to the next conversation where Walker joins us. We have more to share. Yes.
Nancy Yen [00:48:44]:
Looking forward to that. Excited.
Theresa Hubbard [00:48:48]:
Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth and we strive to be more compassionate every day.