Man vs Bear: A Conversation on Safety and Trust
Theresa Hubbard and Walker Bird
⚠️ Sensitive Content: Sexual Assault and Trauma
This episode includes real, personal stories about sexual assault and trauma. If that feels tender or overwhelming right now, we invite you to listen with care or come back when the timing feels right. And if anything we share brings something up for you, please know you're not alone. It’s okay to reach out for support. You deserve to feel safe, held, and supported on your journey.
What would make a woman choose a bear over a man in the woods? This honest, emotional conversation explores why that question resonates for so many and what it reveals about our internal stories and lived experiences.
"I don’t ever think that a woman is going to come running out of the woods to harm me."
What You'll Learn
→ How fear lives in the body even after healing
→ Why intention doesn't always equal safety
→ What it means to hold space when we don't fully understand
✨ Subscribe and share the episode with someone ready to remember who they are
Episode Links & Resources
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Episode Chapters
00:00 Welcome and setting the scene
01:14 Why some listeners prefer watching
02:41 New YouTube series announcement
04:53 Free mini course details
05:25 Man vs bear concept explained
07:19 Walker’s initial reaction
08:49 Exploring what fear really feels like
12:40 Theresa reflects on real experiences
15:52 Story of early trauma and confusion
19:20 When people cross invisible lines
24:04 Assumptions, power, and safety
30:12 Walker asks about flirting vs assault
33:53 What made Theresa feel safe in their relationship
36:53 Mowing alone and the weight of hypervigilance
40:49 Holding space and raising boys differently
44:08 Closing thoughts and what helps us heal
Topics we explore in this episode include:
nervous system awareness, fear and safety, trauma-informed healing, gendered experiences, relational power, survivor stories, embodied trauma, emotional honesty, boundaries, holding space
Episode Transcript
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:00]:
Okay, say what you just said again.
Walker Bird [00:00:01]:
I don't know anybody that sexually assaults people.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:05]:
You don't know anyone that you know sexually assaults people.
Walker Bird [00:00:08]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:09]:
You probably know people who sexually assault people. You don't know that they do because I don't think those three guys. And I'm going to add another one that happened. I'm going to add two more that happened. I think. I don't think anybody that knew them would think they are people that sexually assault people.
Walker Bird [00:00:35]:
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests. We intend to prompt internal inquiries that supports all those willing to explore a unique path. I want to do man versus Bear.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:05]:
Okay, let's do it. Okay, here we go. Well, hello.
Walker Bird [00:01:10]:
Hello.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:14]:
So a few things, if you listen to us, we would love for you to consider also watching us on YouTube. Somebody I was talking to today told me that they had moved from audio to video and were enjoying watching us. So, you know, it's just the, the feel of. It's different again. It's just something to consider that watching us might teach something. Another level of how we engage.
Walker Bird [00:01:55]:
Sure. No, I agree. You see the non verbal cues and our funny personality quirks, et cetera, Silly faces, you know, whatever.
Theresa Hubbard [00:02:03]:
Whatever they are. Yeah, yeah. And then I was just thinking we've got the, the conversations we wish our, our parents had with us growing up is going to be starting and that at the moment the intro video comes out I think Tuesday, August 5th. And I think right now there's 22 in the series and they're going to come out every other Tuesday, I believe is the schedule. And they'll. We're going to really again do our best to keep them around 10 minutes.
Walker Bird [00:02:41]:
Long, which is going to be hard.
Theresa Hubbard [00:02:43]:
Which is going to be really hard.
Walker Bird [00:02:45]:
Because we like to talk.
Theresa Hubbard [00:02:46]:
Yeah. So we might. What we're considering is doing a longer conversation about each one of the topics too. But we'll get to that. Right now we just, we're going to work on just the short ones and then.
Walker Bird [00:03:00]:
And we're really excited about that series just because it's so difficult even for us, even in, in retrospect.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:06]:
Yes.
Walker Bird [00:03:06]:
Right. So I was practicing over the weekend with my daughter.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:11]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:03:12]:
Asking questions about her childhood and those sorts of things. And it's just, it's a, it's a big, big topic. And hard for us to even get into it is.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:22]:
It is. So these will be just, you know, scraping the surface. Yeah, yeah. The what, when and why and then the how part's going to be. It's going to be longer, but that's why we were thinking about doing the extended later. But we will. We're going to go towards all the topics that people brought up and then we'll see what happens.
Walker Bird [00:03:45]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:46]:
And then we have a free mini course that we created that will be coming out in August as well. And then we've got a guest scheduled for August that I am crazy excited about. But we'll wait to announce that until we have the recording done.
Walker Bird [00:04:08]:
Yeah. And the free mini-course on relationships.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:11]:
Yes, the free mini-course is on relationship.
Walker Bird [00:04:14]:
And it is very abbreviated version of our bigger course.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:16]:
Yes.
Walker Bird [00:04:17]:
Just to give people a flavor and to give something for free. So anyway, we hope you enjoy it and hope you sign up for it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:25]:
Yeah. And it's seven page PDF, beautifully done by my niece, Meg, Megan. She did a great job.
Walker Bird [00:04:33]:
She's awesome.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:34]:
Yeah. And just the whole team, Kelsey and David.
Walker Bird [00:04:36]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:37]:
Jason, everybody that's contributing and helping us put together all this wonderful content that we're putting out there. So anyway, so today's topic.
Walker Bird [00:04:51]:
Woo.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:53]:
So one of my employees suggested this as a conversation that you and I have, and while I haven't heard about it on social media in a few months, I think it's a conversation worth having regardless. There's a lot of thoughts I have about it and I know that you were unfamiliar with the topic and so we'll see how this goes.
Walker Bird [00:05:19]:
Yeah, I'd never heard that before.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:20]:
Yeah. Which is fascinating.
Walker Bird [00:05:21]:
And I was reactive to it as soon as I did. So let's hear it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:25]:
Yeah. So we're good. So we're going to step into our version of man versus Bear. And so. So I mentioned to Walker last night, I said, there's a few topics, you know, that I have on the top of my head that we could go towards. And he was like, I don't. When I said man versus Bear, he was like, I don't know what you're talking about. And I was like, you haven't seen that on social media.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:52]:
And he's like, no. And I was like, wow. Okay. So I think I explained it as if a woman was by herself in the woods, what would she rather run into? A man versus a bear. And overall, the common feedback that I have seen or heard is that women, not all women. Not all women. That women commented that they would rather run into a bear in the woods by themselves than a man. And so I know you're.
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:36]:
Well, I'll just let you speak for yourself.
Walker Bird [00:06:39]:
Well, my immediate reaction and this conversation may step on some toes. I don't know. It steps on my toes, too. So my immediate reaction was, that's easy to say until you're face to face with the bear. And I get it. Well, I probably don't get it, actually, so I need to understand more. But it hurts me is really, I think, what drives my reactivity, you know, because I like to be viewed as kind, and I like to be kind. I like to make or help or try to help make people feel good about themselves and empowered.
Walker Bird [00:07:19]:
I do it a lot, if you've noticed. And just the thought of, you know, because I like to hike and the thought of being viewed as that big of a threat that I would be worse than a bear when I would probably be the first to climb down the cliffside if you fell, to try to save your life hurts me. And I just think it's a really sad state of affairs that women feel that threatened and that there could be good reason for feeling that threatened, but also that there could be good reasons why it's a stereotype.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:10]:
Mm.
Walker Bird [00:08:11]:
I'm not saying people shouldn't be careful. I'm just saying I'm not a threat. And to be viewed as a threat just because I'm a man is sad. So that's my first round.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:26]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:08:29]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:31]:
You know, it's interesting. So there were. After, you know, I mentioned that, and you had that reaction, and I knew it was about really more like it hurting your heart, that that would be what people experience most times.
Walker Bird [00:08:47]:
It is.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:47]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:08:48]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:49]:
Yeah. And so because I know you, and I know you know that you don't want to harm people. We all harm people, but I know you don't want to harm people, and you are helpful. And, you know, the things that came to mind for me were immediately. Isn't it interesting that this is one of those topics where we would pick the dark cave over the tiger's lair? Because we don't do that often, right? Often we pick the tiger's lair.
Walker Bird [00:09:39]:
Tell us more. See, because I would couch those two the same way.
Theresa Hubbard [00:09:45]:
So for me, when I think about it is if I. If I decide, if I've decided that a man running into a man in the woods by myself is inherently dangerous, then that's the tiger's lair. Right. I don't know how a bear is going to react. Right. I can imagine. I think it all depends on the type of bear. Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:10:14]:
And I don't think they specified what type of bear. I think running into a black bear would be different than running into a grizzly bear and one that's sick or hungry or cubs are around or. You know, there's a lot of things.
Walker Bird [00:10:30]:
Kind of like men.
Theresa Hubbard [00:10:33]:
Tell me more. Oh, you mean the difference.
Walker Bird [00:10:36]:
You don't know what kind of man you're running into either.
Theresa Hubbard [00:10:40]:
You don't. You don't.
Walker Bird [00:10:41]:
Because there are dangerous men out there. There's dangerous women, too.
Theresa Hubbard [00:10:44]:
Absolutely. Right, right. Dangerous people. And that's. You know, I always want to go back to that when people say, men do this or men do that. And I'm like, people do that, people do that. And inherently, a man is not going to say, if I am in the woods by myself, if I run into a woman by herself, that I am not going to be afraid if I run into a woman by myself. Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:11:22]:
And that's inherently the difference. Right.
Walker Bird [00:11:26]:
Sure. She could be. I mean, the interesting thing in my immediate just going right there is if she was carrying a gun, I wouldn't care. I'd expect it to be honest. Or ma. At least.
Theresa Hubbard [00:11:40]:
Right. You know, but her presence doesn't threaten you?
Walker Bird [00:11:45]:
Not unless she's acting weird.
Theresa Hubbard [00:11:48]:
Right. But inherently, just watch.
Walker Bird [00:11:51]:
Just say, there's no odd behavior. They're just there they are in a clearing that you're coming around the bend, and there they are. Not at all.
Theresa Hubbard [00:11:57]:
Not at all.
Walker Bird [00:11:58]:
No.
Theresa Hubbard [00:11:58]:
Right. Nor a man.
Walker Bird [00:12:00]:
Not for me, no.
Theresa Hubbard [00:12:01]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:12:02]:
No, I haven't felt that right now. I mean, it depends, you know, if I was downtown in a dark alley, I would be wary of a man, and I might be wary of a woman in a dark alley, but not to the same extent. That's true. Okay, so you're giving me some more clarity.
Theresa Hubbard [00:12:21]:
Yeah. Right.
Walker Bird [00:12:24]:
So.
Theresa Hubbard [00:12:25]:
So for me, I wouldn't have a reaction, you know, to a woman in the woods if I was by myself and she was by herself. I don't believe that my body would feel threatened.
Walker Bird [00:12:38]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:12:40]:
I do think that there are women who are going to be threatened by running into anybody. When I think about what is my. I think what my reaction would be, I'm just. I'm trying to put myself in different situations that I have been in. What's interesting for me is I think about it, I actually don't think that as they were coming towards me, I would be afraid. I think when I. For me, Teresa, if I saw a man Coming towards me and he was just walking towards me. That would not bother me.
Theresa Hubbard [00:13:33]:
When it would bother me is as soon as he passed me. What I believe is that, that him being behind me and me not being able to see him would actually be what I would struggle with. For me, I feel like it would then be, how do I protect myself if I can't see what's coming and what.
Walker Bird [00:14:05]:
Lay down in the trail and put your walking sticks over your neck.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:09]:
Right. Like you did. Right. To protect yourselves from the wolves. Yeah, yeah. When my light ran out, right now I remember. Yeah. The Stardust Telephone trail.
Walker Bird [00:14:20]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:21]:
And so for me there is that, you know, I am aware when I am by myself that even if the fear that I feel in my body may not stop me from doing what it is I want to do, the fear is there. It is there. The fear. I mean, when I. When I think about. I don't have to just go back to, you know, being sexually abused as a young girl. I remember being at somebody's house when I was probably like 13 and it was like a co ed party and I don't know whose house it was, but what I do know is there were people there that I did not know. And I remember that that was like the first time that someone like felt me up and I didn't know what was happening and it was by a boy I did not know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:15:52]:
And then when I was 17, a friend of mine at the time was house sitting and she and her boyfriend, her boyfriend came over and he came over with some friends and they went and slept in like the master bedroom and I was asleep on a couch. Have I told you this story? Yeah. And when I woke up, one of the guys that was there, who I did not know, had my hand on his penis and was jacking off using my hand. And that was not something that I had ever experienced. And I didn't know what to do, but I was very afraid. And I remember yanking my hand away and him saying something like, you know, you have to finish now. And I'm like, I didn't even know what that meant. Right.
Walker Bird [00:17:01]:
Wow.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:02]:
And then him ejaculating, which then in my mind was. I mean, I was terrified I was going to get pregnant because some boy's ejaculate was on my hand. And I remember like trying to like get into the bathroom and wash it off so that I did not get pregnant. I was 17.
Walker Bird [00:17:27]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:31]:
And I remember like being so like distressed that as I drove away, it was hard for me to like even Stay awake, which I know was some, like, level of shock. Right. And those were people I didn't know. You know, I just happened to be in a place.
Walker Bird [00:18:01]:
Hmm.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:06]:
So I think I learned early that people I didn't know were dangerous, too. Men I didn't know were dangerous, too. So I knew men that I knew were dangerous. But those things taught me that men that I didn't know were dangerous and that I could be somewhere and that my physical body was still an option for them to. To touch, you know, and to violate without my permission just because I happened to be there. Right. And so for me, you know, that's what I imagine that people are. Have in their mind.
Walker Bird [00:19:00]:
Do you think that that's a. I mean, after all the years in the therapy chair, is that a common experience of sexual assault? Absolutely, I think, because that's sexual assault. I mean, that kid should have gone charged.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:13]:
Right. So I think it happens all the time.
Walker Bird [00:19:17]:
Really.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:18]:
All the time.
Walker Bird [00:19:19]:
Okay.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:20]:
You know. You know, this story. I don't actually know if I've talked about it on the podcast or not, but 15 years ago, when I went on retreat. Yeah, right. I mean, go ahead. That man was an adult. Not only was he an adult, he was a counselor.
Walker Bird [00:19:39]:
Well, tell me. Tell us what he did.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:41]:
We were in a group activity, and when we, you know, we were all sitting on the floor, and when I got up to, like, on break, I got up on break, and I. So, you know. You know, like how you get up off the floor, and he was sitting next to me, and he stuck his finger up my nose and then licked his finger.
Walker Bird [00:20:04]:
That's just disgusting.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:09]:
And I froze then.
Walker Bird [00:20:10]:
Sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:10]:
2. Because I was like, what happened? Right. But. And I didn't, like, know him know him. I had. I mean, I met him, you know, at that retreat, but I didn't know him. And again, still, like, some assumption that just because I'm there and for whatever reason that felt whatever for him, I don't even know. I can't even decide what that was for him, if that was an attempt at connection.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:51]:
But it was, to me, assault.
Walker Bird [00:20:53]:
Sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:54]:
Right. I mean, literally. I mean, I'm like, what? And then what was so. What. What was so much harder than that is when I went to one of the assistants that was there, and I said to her, I need to have a clearing with him, because this is what he did. Her response to me was, well, that's just what boys do. And in my mind, I had three boys. Right, right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:27]:
And I'm thinking, no, no, they don't Right? No, they don't go up and stick their fingers up. Maybe when they were little boys, like little. Little, like one and a half, and they would stick their finger up my nose, but not when they're big boys.
Walker Bird [00:21:46]:
Big boys, meaning in their 30s or.
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:47]:
40S, as this man was.
Walker Bird [00:21:50]:
Give me a break.
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:51]:
Right, right. And I said, no, no, they don't. But. But it created doubt in me. Her saying that created doubt in me. And I literally came home from that retreat and started asking adult men, do you stick your finger up people's noses that you don't know and then lick your finger?
Walker Bird [00:22:13]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:14]:
And they're like, what are you talking about?
Walker Bird [00:22:15]:
Yeah. It's just weird. Power. I think it was power. Sexual power.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:20]:
Sexual power.
Walker Bird [00:22:21]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:21]:
Right. But all those things were sexual.
Walker Bird [00:22:23]:
I could touch you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:24]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:22:25]:
Taste you, you know?
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:27]:
Right, right.
Walker Bird [00:22:29]:
Okay. Well, I mean, now I'm feeling bad that I was reactive. If it's a common experience to be sexually assaulted growing up as a. As a girl and a woman and even as a grown woman with children, for God's sake.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:42]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:22:43]:
It's just not my experience, babe. Not at all.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:46]:
Right. But I think that's the problem. Right. Is the disconnect is that I don't think that men look at this guy or that guy or that guy and think, oh, he sexually assaults people. I don't think that happens.
Walker Bird [00:23:06]:
Really?
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:07]:
Like. Like, who would you say that you know sexually assaults people?
Walker Bird [00:23:14]:
I don't know anybody that sexually assaults people other than stepfathers. I had.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:20]:
Okay, say what you just said again.
Walker Bird [00:23:22]:
I don't know anybody that sexually assaults people.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:25]:
You don't know anyone that you know sexually assaults people? You probably know people who sexually assault people. You don't know that they do. Because I don't think those three guys. And I'm going to add another one that happened. I'm going to add two more that happened. I don't think anybody that knew them would think they are people that sexually assault people. But I had my first corporate job. I think I've talked about this on the podcast.
Theresa Hubbard [00:24:04]:
One of the partners in the law firm that I worked at came up to me when I was 18 years old when he was intoxicated and said, I want to fuck you, and I smacked him. And then I had a partner at one of the accounting firms that I worked for that said he needed help with his. Whatever they're called. I don't know what they're called. You put them in your. Put them in your collar tabs.
Walker Bird [00:24:30]:
Collar stays.
Theresa Hubbard [00:24:31]:
Collar stays. And he said, I can't get this one in. Can you help me? And so, of course, I'm a helper, right? So I was like, sure, trying to figure it out. He starts talking to me about his teenage son's wet dreams. And so. But I don't think, again that the people that those people know or work with would say, those are people that sexually assault people. So what do we do with that? Because they are people that cross sexual boundaries with women who they have. I mean, these were.
Theresa Hubbard [00:25:13]:
And those two men were married men. And so the positives of both of those experiences is that when I did go to the other men in those firms, in the law firm and in the accounting firm, they did listen to me. They did do something about it. Those people were, whatever you want to call, talked to, reprimanded. So for me, it isn't all men, but I don't know which man it is because I didn't expect any of those. So what's the safest thing for me to do? How do I decide? Because it doesn't. It hasn't just happened once. I'm not asking you for an answer.
Walker Bird [00:26:47]:
B. I don't have any answers.
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:49]:
I know, and I think that we don't talk about it. You know, it's. I think you probably have heard most of all of those stories and a.
Walker Bird [00:27:06]:
Couple more that you didn't share yet, right?
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:09]:
Oh, yeah.
Walker Bird [00:27:10]:
Corporate dinner.
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:11]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:27:12]:
And another retreat.
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:13]:
Yes, yes, yes. I was at a dinner. I was there with my husband. This person was there with their spouse. There was another couple there. He had been drinking, this guy. And he. And as best as I recall, he asked my then husband what it would be like or what was it like to taste me in front of everybody.
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:52]:
And then, yes, I was at another retreat, and there was a man there who I had been watching all week because I noticed that he hit on people. And I think I may have talked about this one too, in a different episode, but he asked me in front of everyone, how much would it cost him to spend the night with me. And, you know, I was proud of my response, which was, you don't have that much money. But the reality is, is now. How many times have I said now has it been five, six? Just by men thinking that they can. Because I'm there, right? I'm not doing anything. You know, I'm not dressed provocatively or, you know, all the feedback. I was just there, just a woman there.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:03]:
So I think even in, like, the context of the fuller, longer conversation and all the work that I have done with clients over the last 20 years while I haven't sat down with any particular person, unless this is the work we're doing. But I always hear stories from women in the course of therapy about different things that have happened to them.
Walker Bird [00:29:39]:
Do you think. And I'm not. I'm not trying to belittle, but. And I'm not the type to walk up with a proposition like that anymore.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:48]:
Not at all. Not. You are not.
Walker Bird [00:29:49]:
Not my style.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:50]:
Not. Nope.
Walker Bird [00:29:52]:
But hitting on people, depending on degree. I mean, I don't know how the human race continues if there's not some approach. So is that sexual assault or is it a sexual assault because of the verbal nature of it, the way that it's stated.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:12]:
Oh, because of the nature, the way that it's stated. I mean, there's an implied power. Right. Because it is. All of them are about power. Yeah. All. Whether it's money or position.
Walker Bird [00:30:24]:
Sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:25]:
Right, right.
Walker Bird [00:30:27]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:33]:
Yeah. A certain level of entitlement. I can.
Walker Bird [00:30:43]:
Yeah, yeah. I'm sure the law firm, the accounting firm were like.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:51]:
They were.
Walker Bird [00:30:51]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:51]:
It was total.
Walker Bird [00:30:54]:
Harassment.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:55]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:30:55]:
And you can't proposition like that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:58]:
And not something I really understood at that age. I was pretty young.
Walker Bird [00:31:01]:
Yeah. Plus you're 18.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:04]:
Yeah. One of them was 18, and I think the other one was 24.
Walker Bird [00:31:12]:
Yeah, yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:21]:
You are not responsible for carrying the choices that all of those other men made.
Walker Bird [00:31:28]:
Yeah. Or any other guy that doesn't do that. Right. Because there's plenty.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:33]:
Right, right.
Walker Bird [00:31:34]:
But how does any woman know? And so it's just. I feel. But I do feel ashamed about it. It's just like, you know, to see you go through that. The pain, even all these years later, is just so big. So. Well, I guess I've learned more about myself being reactive and judgy about the bear versus the man. And why wouldn't you feel that way? And if it's a common experience, I don't know how anyone gets together if that's the case.
Walker Bird [00:32:12]:
You somehow trusted me.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:16]:
Well, you know, you never felt threatening to me. And when you approached me to share that you had feelings for me, you know, what you said was true, Teresa, I think I love you.
Walker Bird [00:32:40]:
Yeah. I wasn't sexual.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:42]:
No, Wasn't.
Walker Bird [00:32:45]:
So how could it be? Really?
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:46]:
No. And you weren't. I mean, even prior to saying that to me, you weren't sexual with me. I didn't experience my value to you to being. As being sexual.
Walker Bird [00:32:59]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:33:00]:
Yeah. If I had, it wouldn't have ever happened. We wouldn't have had A relationship, because that's not something I respond to. It is not something that is interesting to me or intriguing or macho or powerful or confident or strong. It's just immature, young attachment issues, them needing to feel power. Willing to sacrifice that person for a dopamine hit. No, it's not ever how I've experienced you. So thank you.
Walker Bird [00:33:53]:
It's a good thing. No, it's hard. And I'm sorry. I just. It's like, oh, inappropriate laughter, you know, because I don't know how to handle all this. Honestly, it's just hard.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:09]:
I think it's just staying open and being curious, even when we're reactive. Right.
Walker Bird [00:34:15]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:17]:
Knowing that when we're reactive, it's touching a story, you know, about us in some way.
Walker Bird [00:34:25]:
Yeah. So man versus Bear. I'm assuming that was the consensus on the.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:51]:
Yes.
Walker Bird [00:34:52]:
Internet, too.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:52]:
There was a consensus, sure.
Walker Bird [00:34:54]:
In the comments, were people saying I was sexually assaulted?
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:58]:
Absolutely. Oh, yeah.
Walker Bird [00:35:00]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:35:01]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:35:01]:
What made your. Your co worker, your employee, bring it up? I mean, what was the concept that they thought would be interesting about a topic for us to discuss or how it came up in conversation with you guys?
Theresa Hubbard [00:35:15]:
You know, I don't remember exactly. I mean, you know, based off what I know, you know, about her, I mean, I think she. She values you. You know, she sees you, you know, as a. I mean, I'm putting words in her mouth. So we'll make them good, then. He's the greatest guy ever.
Walker Bird [00:35:41]:
Is that it? Little comic relief from the seriousness of this conversation? Yeah, it's hard for me.
Theresa Hubbard [00:35:50]:
Yeah, I know. I know it's hard. It's hard. It's hard to hear what other people's painful life experiences are, especially in one more put into that group that harms.
Walker Bird [00:36:06]:
Agreed.
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:07]:
Yeah. No, I think for her, I mean, I. I'm pretty sure she listens every Friday when we release it. And I think her. I think what she would say about you is that you are authentic, vulnerable, kind and that. I think she just wanted to really know what our conversation would be about it. I don't know that she had any other expectation. She just said, I'd like to hear you and Walker talk about that.
Walker Bird [00:36:36]:
Sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:37]:
And I was like, oh, okay. And then, you know, it just wasn't on my radar. Right. And then it came back, and I was like, oh, yeah. That we really. That'd be a good one to talk about. Yeah. H.
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:53]:
What?
Walker Bird [00:36:53]:
Well, I'm laughing at myself for my reactivity and judgment about the topic.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:00]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:37:01]:
Because, you know, literally, I was like, what? A crock of, you know, blaming every man's dangerous. But why the hell wouldn't you feel that way if you. If that's a common experience, Good Lord. And if it's not common, if it's your experience, it's your experience. Why wouldn't you feel that way if all those things had happened?
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:18]:
Yeah. I have not said this to you, man. Mowing on the tractor at the land by myself without you right there is terrifying for me.
Walker Bird [00:37:35]:
Really?
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:35]:
Oh yeah.
Walker Bird [00:37:36]:
To go out of sight when I'm up over the hill. Wow.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:40]:
Yeah. I worry. I mean, I do the feel the fear is real that a man will come out of the woods and attack me on the tractor when I go to trim branches away from the trail cameras and you are not with me, you know, it is. I am very aware and anxious and protected. You know, like I either have, you know, a large hedge clippers or something. And I'm very intentional about making sure that I am protected. Looking around, looking around, staying safe. But mowing near the tree line is very difficult for me because it is so dense, the coverage is so dense.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:29]:
And I'm like, that tractor doesn't move very fast. I mean, it does, but it doesn't. Right?
Walker Bird [00:38:33]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:34]:
And so no, it's there. It's a. It's a real fear. Yeah. I just choose to push through the fear so that I can live the life that I want to live. But the fear is there. I don't ever think that a woman is going to come running out of the woods to harm me. I'm sorry.
Walker Bird [00:39:13]:
Why are you sorry?
Theresa Hubbard [00:39:15]:
Because I know it's not you. You're not that guy.
Walker Bird [00:39:19]:
It's not. But it's also not my experience. You know, I never in a million years, if you'd thought, tell me what you think I might be afraid of out here. I don't know that that would have come up.
Theresa Hubbard [00:39:28]:
I know.
Walker Bird [00:39:30]:
Now, sleeping out there alone maybe. Sure. I would feel uncomfortable just sleeping out there alone, you know, because there's the residential facility and that sort of stuff close by. Or was. But not anywhere near the same degree as. I was never afraid sleeping on the trail when I hiked. Not really. So that's why you don't like take the mower.
Walker Bird [00:40:14]:
So why am I always mowing?
Theresa Hubbard [00:40:16]:
Yeah, it's. Yeah, yeah. I'm fine sitting in my car.
Walker Bird [00:40:21]:
Sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:40:21]:
You know, working on something while you go mow. Yeah, I will do it. I will do it again. Easier if I'm not near a tree line where I can see right But. But hugging the tree line tight, you know, to like, you know, trim it up well, causes me anxiety.
Walker Bird [00:40:40]:
Sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:40:41]:
Yeah, sure. Wow.
Walker Bird [00:40:45]:
So what do we do with all this? What do we do?
Theresa Hubbard [00:40:49]:
To me, acknowledging the reality of what people's experience is, I think is the most important thing we can do. You can't fix all those other people that choose to do those things, to try to have power over people by taking from them. But when you hear about it or when someone comes to you, being able to hold space for them in a way where they feel that you see them and hear them and don't try to make excuses or whatever, I think that's what we can do. Raise our men better than we are. I've worked really hard on that as a mom.
Walker Bird [00:41:55]:
Well, let's talk about this for a minute. What's your experience in the therapy room with men not coming on to you? That's happened too.
Theresa Hubbard [00:42:05]:
But.
Walker Bird [00:42:13]:
I mean, is there discussion of that type of behavior that people have engaged in? Like, regret that they did that in the past or probably don't go there would be my guess.
Theresa Hubbard [00:42:25]:
No, there have been men that have expressed regret about choices that they've made, for sure. I think there's plenty of men who've been sexually assaulted by other men. I just don't think men talk about it.
Walker Bird [00:42:48]:
Sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:42:49]:
But I've worked with a lot of men that have been sexually assaulted by other men and by other women, you know, typically in power positions, but not as often. That men have shared tissue. Yeah. That men have shared about being sexually assaulted by a woman, for sure. I mean, if I was going to put percentages between men that have shared being sexually assaulted by a woman, it would be tiny. Tiny. But men that have shared being sexually assaulted by, you know, another man, more common than we want to believe. Also about power, right? No answer.
Theresa Hubbard [00:43:48]:
Just saying it out loud.
Walker Bird [00:43:49]:
Yeah. No, I think it's important to bring it out. What a shame.
Theresa Hubbard [00:44:02]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:44:06]:
I'm sorry for your pain.
Theresa Hubbard [00:44:08]:
Thanks, babe.
Walker Bird [00:44:13]:
And I'm sorry I didn't understand more, but I do now. I know more. Not saying I understand completely because I know I never will. But. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:44:29]:
I am sure that there are people in your life, if you sat down and had a conversation with them and stayed curious, it would be really hard to hear.
Walker Bird [00:44:50]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:44:59]:
Thank you.
Walker Bird [00:45:00]:
Thank you for being brave. That was brave and hard.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:13]:
I love you.
Walker Bird [00:45:15]:
I love you, too.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:18]:
Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth, and we strive to be more compassionate every day.
Walker Bird [00:45:30]:
Sam.
Okay, say what you just said again.
Walker Bird [00:00:01]:
I don't know anybody that sexually assaults people.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:05]:
You don't know anyone that you know sexually assaults people.
Walker Bird [00:00:08]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:09]:
You probably know people who sexually assault people. You don't know that they do because I don't think those three guys. And I'm going to add another one that happened. I'm going to add two more that happened. I think. I don't think anybody that knew them would think they are people that sexually assault people.
Walker Bird [00:00:35]:
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests. We intend to prompt internal inquiries that supports all those willing to explore a unique path. I want to do man versus Bear.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:05]:
Okay, let's do it. Okay, here we go. Well, hello.
Walker Bird [00:01:10]:
Hello.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:14]:
So a few things, if you listen to us, we would love for you to consider also watching us on YouTube. Somebody I was talking to today told me that they had moved from audio to video and were enjoying watching us. So, you know, it's just the, the feel of. It's different again. It's just something to consider that watching us might teach something. Another level of how we engage.
Walker Bird [00:01:55]:
Sure. No, I agree. You see the non verbal cues and our funny personality quirks, et cetera, Silly faces, you know, whatever.
Theresa Hubbard [00:02:03]:
Whatever they are. Yeah, yeah. And then I was just thinking we've got the, the conversations we wish our, our parents had with us growing up is going to be starting and that at the moment the intro video comes out I think Tuesday, August 5th. And I think right now there's 22 in the series and they're going to come out every other Tuesday, I believe is the schedule. And they'll. We're going to really again do our best to keep them around 10 minutes.
Walker Bird [00:02:41]:
Long, which is going to be hard.
Theresa Hubbard [00:02:43]:
Which is going to be really hard.
Walker Bird [00:02:45]:
Because we like to talk.
Theresa Hubbard [00:02:46]:
Yeah. So we might. What we're considering is doing a longer conversation about each one of the topics too. But we'll get to that. Right now we just, we're going to work on just the short ones and then.
Walker Bird [00:03:00]:
And we're really excited about that series just because it's so difficult even for us, even in, in retrospect.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:06]:
Yes.
Walker Bird [00:03:06]:
Right. So I was practicing over the weekend with my daughter.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:11]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:03:12]:
Asking questions about her childhood and those sorts of things. And it's just, it's a, it's a big, big topic. And hard for us to even get into it is.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:22]:
It is. So these will be just, you know, scraping the surface. Yeah, yeah. The what, when and why and then the how part's going to be. It's going to be longer, but that's why we were thinking about doing the extended later. But we will. We're going to go towards all the topics that people brought up and then we'll see what happens.
Walker Bird [00:03:45]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:46]:
And then we have a free mini course that we created that will be coming out in August as well. And then we've got a guest scheduled for August that I am crazy excited about. But we'll wait to announce that until we have the recording done.
Walker Bird [00:04:08]:
Yeah. And the free mini-course on relationships.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:11]:
Yes, the free mini-course is on relationship.
Walker Bird [00:04:14]:
And it is very abbreviated version of our bigger course.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:16]:
Yes.
Walker Bird [00:04:17]:
Just to give people a flavor and to give something for free. So anyway, we hope you enjoy it and hope you sign up for it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:25]:
Yeah. And it's seven page PDF, beautifully done by my niece, Meg, Megan. She did a great job.
Walker Bird [00:04:33]:
She's awesome.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:34]:
Yeah. And just the whole team, Kelsey and David.
Walker Bird [00:04:36]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:37]:
Jason, everybody that's contributing and helping us put together all this wonderful content that we're putting out there. So anyway, so today's topic.
Walker Bird [00:04:51]:
Woo.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:53]:
So one of my employees suggested this as a conversation that you and I have, and while I haven't heard about it on social media in a few months, I think it's a conversation worth having regardless. There's a lot of thoughts I have about it and I know that you were unfamiliar with the topic and so we'll see how this goes.
Walker Bird [00:05:19]:
Yeah, I'd never heard that before.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:20]:
Yeah. Which is fascinating.
Walker Bird [00:05:21]:
And I was reactive to it as soon as I did. So let's hear it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:25]:
Yeah. So we're good. So we're going to step into our version of man versus Bear. And so. So I mentioned to Walker last night, I said, there's a few topics, you know, that I have on the top of my head that we could go towards. And he was like, I don't. When I said man versus Bear, he was like, I don't know what you're talking about. And I was like, you haven't seen that on social media.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:52]:
And he's like, no. And I was like, wow. Okay. So I think I explained it as if a woman was by herself in the woods, what would she rather run into? A man versus a bear. And overall, the common feedback that I have seen or heard is that women, not all women. Not all women. That women commented that they would rather run into a bear in the woods by themselves than a man. And so I know you're.
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:36]:
Well, I'll just let you speak for yourself.
Walker Bird [00:06:39]:
Well, my immediate reaction and this conversation may step on some toes. I don't know. It steps on my toes, too. So my immediate reaction was, that's easy to say until you're face to face with the bear. And I get it. Well, I probably don't get it, actually, so I need to understand more. But it hurts me is really, I think, what drives my reactivity, you know, because I like to be viewed as kind, and I like to be kind. I like to make or help or try to help make people feel good about themselves and empowered.
Walker Bird [00:07:19]:
I do it a lot, if you've noticed. And just the thought of, you know, because I like to hike and the thought of being viewed as that big of a threat that I would be worse than a bear when I would probably be the first to climb down the cliffside if you fell, to try to save your life hurts me. And I just think it's a really sad state of affairs that women feel that threatened and that there could be good reason for feeling that threatened, but also that there could be good reasons why it's a stereotype.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:10]:
Mm.
Walker Bird [00:08:11]:
I'm not saying people shouldn't be careful. I'm just saying I'm not a threat. And to be viewed as a threat just because I'm a man is sad. So that's my first round.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:26]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:08:29]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:31]:
You know, it's interesting. So there were. After, you know, I mentioned that, and you had that reaction, and I knew it was about really more like it hurting your heart, that that would be what people experience most times.
Walker Bird [00:08:47]:
It is.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:47]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:08:48]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:49]:
Yeah. And so because I know you, and I know you know that you don't want to harm people. We all harm people, but I know you don't want to harm people, and you are helpful. And, you know, the things that came to mind for me were immediately. Isn't it interesting that this is one of those topics where we would pick the dark cave over the tiger's lair? Because we don't do that often, right? Often we pick the tiger's lair.
Walker Bird [00:09:39]:
Tell us more. See, because I would couch those two the same way.
Theresa Hubbard [00:09:45]:
So for me, when I think about it is if I. If I decide, if I've decided that a man running into a man in the woods by myself is inherently dangerous, then that's the tiger's lair. Right. I don't know how a bear is going to react. Right. I can imagine. I think it all depends on the type of bear. Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:10:14]:
And I don't think they specified what type of bear. I think running into a black bear would be different than running into a grizzly bear and one that's sick or hungry or cubs are around or. You know, there's a lot of things.
Walker Bird [00:10:30]:
Kind of like men.
Theresa Hubbard [00:10:33]:
Tell me more. Oh, you mean the difference.
Walker Bird [00:10:36]:
You don't know what kind of man you're running into either.
Theresa Hubbard [00:10:40]:
You don't. You don't.
Walker Bird [00:10:41]:
Because there are dangerous men out there. There's dangerous women, too.
Theresa Hubbard [00:10:44]:
Absolutely. Right, right. Dangerous people. And that's. You know, I always want to go back to that when people say, men do this or men do that. And I'm like, people do that, people do that. And inherently, a man is not going to say, if I am in the woods by myself, if I run into a woman by herself, that I am not going to be afraid if I run into a woman by myself. Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:11:22]:
And that's inherently the difference. Right.
Walker Bird [00:11:26]:
Sure. She could be. I mean, the interesting thing in my immediate just going right there is if she was carrying a gun, I wouldn't care. I'd expect it to be honest. Or ma. At least.
Theresa Hubbard [00:11:40]:
Right. You know, but her presence doesn't threaten you?
Walker Bird [00:11:45]:
Not unless she's acting weird.
Theresa Hubbard [00:11:48]:
Right. But inherently, just watch.
Walker Bird [00:11:51]:
Just say, there's no odd behavior. They're just there they are in a clearing that you're coming around the bend, and there they are. Not at all.
Theresa Hubbard [00:11:57]:
Not at all.
Walker Bird [00:11:58]:
No.
Theresa Hubbard [00:11:58]:
Right. Nor a man.
Walker Bird [00:12:00]:
Not for me, no.
Theresa Hubbard [00:12:01]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:12:02]:
No, I haven't felt that right now. I mean, it depends, you know, if I was downtown in a dark alley, I would be wary of a man, and I might be wary of a woman in a dark alley, but not to the same extent. That's true. Okay, so you're giving me some more clarity.
Theresa Hubbard [00:12:21]:
Yeah. Right.
Walker Bird [00:12:24]:
So.
Theresa Hubbard [00:12:25]:
So for me, I wouldn't have a reaction, you know, to a woman in the woods if I was by myself and she was by herself. I don't believe that my body would feel threatened.
Walker Bird [00:12:38]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:12:40]:
I do think that there are women who are going to be threatened by running into anybody. When I think about what is my. I think what my reaction would be, I'm just. I'm trying to put myself in different situations that I have been in. What's interesting for me is I think about it, I actually don't think that as they were coming towards me, I would be afraid. I think when I. For me, Teresa, if I saw a man Coming towards me and he was just walking towards me. That would not bother me.
Theresa Hubbard [00:13:33]:
When it would bother me is as soon as he passed me. What I believe is that, that him being behind me and me not being able to see him would actually be what I would struggle with. For me, I feel like it would then be, how do I protect myself if I can't see what's coming and what.
Walker Bird [00:14:05]:
Lay down in the trail and put your walking sticks over your neck.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:09]:
Right. Like you did. Right. To protect yourselves from the wolves. Yeah, yeah. When my light ran out, right now I remember. Yeah. The Stardust Telephone trail.
Walker Bird [00:14:20]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:21]:
And so for me there is that, you know, I am aware when I am by myself that even if the fear that I feel in my body may not stop me from doing what it is I want to do, the fear is there. It is there. The fear. I mean, when I. When I think about. I don't have to just go back to, you know, being sexually abused as a young girl. I remember being at somebody's house when I was probably like 13 and it was like a co ed party and I don't know whose house it was, but what I do know is there were people there that I did not know. And I remember that that was like the first time that someone like felt me up and I didn't know what was happening and it was by a boy I did not know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:15:52]:
And then when I was 17, a friend of mine at the time was house sitting and she and her boyfriend, her boyfriend came over and he came over with some friends and they went and slept in like the master bedroom and I was asleep on a couch. Have I told you this story? Yeah. And when I woke up, one of the guys that was there, who I did not know, had my hand on his penis and was jacking off using my hand. And that was not something that I had ever experienced. And I didn't know what to do, but I was very afraid. And I remember yanking my hand away and him saying something like, you know, you have to finish now. And I'm like, I didn't even know what that meant. Right.
Walker Bird [00:17:01]:
Wow.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:02]:
And then him ejaculating, which then in my mind was. I mean, I was terrified I was going to get pregnant because some boy's ejaculate was on my hand. And I remember like trying to like get into the bathroom and wash it off so that I did not get pregnant. I was 17.
Walker Bird [00:17:27]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:31]:
And I remember like being so like distressed that as I drove away, it was hard for me to like even Stay awake, which I know was some, like, level of shock. Right. And those were people I didn't know. You know, I just happened to be in a place.
Walker Bird [00:18:01]:
Hmm.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:06]:
So I think I learned early that people I didn't know were dangerous, too. Men I didn't know were dangerous, too. So I knew men that I knew were dangerous. But those things taught me that men that I didn't know were dangerous and that I could be somewhere and that my physical body was still an option for them to. To touch, you know, and to violate without my permission just because I happened to be there. Right. And so for me, you know, that's what I imagine that people are. Have in their mind.
Walker Bird [00:19:00]:
Do you think that that's a. I mean, after all the years in the therapy chair, is that a common experience of sexual assault? Absolutely, I think, because that's sexual assault. I mean, that kid should have gone charged.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:13]:
Right. So I think it happens all the time.
Walker Bird [00:19:17]:
Really.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:18]:
All the time.
Walker Bird [00:19:19]:
Okay.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:20]:
You know. You know, this story. I don't actually know if I've talked about it on the podcast or not, but 15 years ago, when I went on retreat. Yeah, right. I mean, go ahead. That man was an adult. Not only was he an adult, he was a counselor.
Walker Bird [00:19:39]:
Well, tell me. Tell us what he did.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:41]:
We were in a group activity, and when we, you know, we were all sitting on the floor, and when I got up to, like, on break, I got up on break, and I. So, you know. You know, like how you get up off the floor, and he was sitting next to me, and he stuck his finger up my nose and then licked his finger.
Walker Bird [00:20:04]:
That's just disgusting.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:09]:
And I froze then.
Walker Bird [00:20:10]:
Sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:10]:
2. Because I was like, what happened? Right. But. And I didn't, like, know him know him. I had. I mean, I met him, you know, at that retreat, but I didn't know him. And again, still, like, some assumption that just because I'm there and for whatever reason that felt whatever for him, I don't even know. I can't even decide what that was for him, if that was an attempt at connection.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:51]:
But it was, to me, assault.
Walker Bird [00:20:53]:
Sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:54]:
Right. I mean, literally. I mean, I'm like, what? And then what was so. What. What was so much harder than that is when I went to one of the assistants that was there, and I said to her, I need to have a clearing with him, because this is what he did. Her response to me was, well, that's just what boys do. And in my mind, I had three boys. Right, right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:27]:
And I'm thinking, no, no, they don't Right? No, they don't go up and stick their fingers up. Maybe when they were little boys, like little. Little, like one and a half, and they would stick their finger up my nose, but not when they're big boys.
Walker Bird [00:21:46]:
Big boys, meaning in their 30s or.
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:47]:
40S, as this man was.
Walker Bird [00:21:50]:
Give me a break.
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:51]:
Right, right. And I said, no, no, they don't. But. But it created doubt in me. Her saying that created doubt in me. And I literally came home from that retreat and started asking adult men, do you stick your finger up people's noses that you don't know and then lick your finger?
Walker Bird [00:22:13]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:14]:
And they're like, what are you talking about?
Walker Bird [00:22:15]:
Yeah. It's just weird. Power. I think it was power. Sexual power.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:20]:
Sexual power.
Walker Bird [00:22:21]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:21]:
Right. But all those things were sexual.
Walker Bird [00:22:23]:
I could touch you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:24]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:22:25]:
Taste you, you know?
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:27]:
Right, right.
Walker Bird [00:22:29]:
Okay. Well, I mean, now I'm feeling bad that I was reactive. If it's a common experience to be sexually assaulted growing up as a. As a girl and a woman and even as a grown woman with children, for God's sake.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:42]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:22:43]:
It's just not my experience, babe. Not at all.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:46]:
Right. But I think that's the problem. Right. Is the disconnect is that I don't think that men look at this guy or that guy or that guy and think, oh, he sexually assaults people. I don't think that happens.
Walker Bird [00:23:06]:
Really?
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:07]:
Like. Like, who would you say that you know sexually assaults people?
Walker Bird [00:23:14]:
I don't know anybody that sexually assaults people other than stepfathers. I had.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:20]:
Okay, say what you just said again.
Walker Bird [00:23:22]:
I don't know anybody that sexually assaults people.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:25]:
You don't know anyone that you know sexually assaults people? You probably know people who sexually assault people. You don't know that they do. Because I don't think those three guys. And I'm going to add another one that happened. I'm going to add two more that happened. I don't think anybody that knew them would think they are people that sexually assault people. But I had my first corporate job. I think I've talked about this on the podcast.
Theresa Hubbard [00:24:04]:
One of the partners in the law firm that I worked at came up to me when I was 18 years old when he was intoxicated and said, I want to fuck you, and I smacked him. And then I had a partner at one of the accounting firms that I worked for that said he needed help with his. Whatever they're called. I don't know what they're called. You put them in your. Put them in your collar tabs.
Walker Bird [00:24:30]:
Collar stays.
Theresa Hubbard [00:24:31]:
Collar stays. And he said, I can't get this one in. Can you help me? And so, of course, I'm a helper, right? So I was like, sure, trying to figure it out. He starts talking to me about his teenage son's wet dreams. And so. But I don't think, again that the people that those people know or work with would say, those are people that sexually assault people. So what do we do with that? Because they are people that cross sexual boundaries with women who they have. I mean, these were.
Theresa Hubbard [00:25:13]:
And those two men were married men. And so the positives of both of those experiences is that when I did go to the other men in those firms, in the law firm and in the accounting firm, they did listen to me. They did do something about it. Those people were, whatever you want to call, talked to, reprimanded. So for me, it isn't all men, but I don't know which man it is because I didn't expect any of those. So what's the safest thing for me to do? How do I decide? Because it doesn't. It hasn't just happened once. I'm not asking you for an answer.
Walker Bird [00:26:47]:
B. I don't have any answers.
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:49]:
I know, and I think that we don't talk about it. You know, it's. I think you probably have heard most of all of those stories and a.
Walker Bird [00:27:06]:
Couple more that you didn't share yet, right?
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:09]:
Oh, yeah.
Walker Bird [00:27:10]:
Corporate dinner.
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:11]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:27:12]:
And another retreat.
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:13]:
Yes, yes, yes. I was at a dinner. I was there with my husband. This person was there with their spouse. There was another couple there. He had been drinking, this guy. And he. And as best as I recall, he asked my then husband what it would be like or what was it like to taste me in front of everybody.
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:52]:
And then, yes, I was at another retreat, and there was a man there who I had been watching all week because I noticed that he hit on people. And I think I may have talked about this one too, in a different episode, but he asked me in front of everyone, how much would it cost him to spend the night with me. And, you know, I was proud of my response, which was, you don't have that much money. But the reality is, is now. How many times have I said now has it been five, six? Just by men thinking that they can. Because I'm there, right? I'm not doing anything. You know, I'm not dressed provocatively or, you know, all the feedback. I was just there, just a woman there.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:03]:
So I think even in, like, the context of the fuller, longer conversation and all the work that I have done with clients over the last 20 years while I haven't sat down with any particular person, unless this is the work we're doing. But I always hear stories from women in the course of therapy about different things that have happened to them.
Walker Bird [00:29:39]:
Do you think. And I'm not. I'm not trying to belittle, but. And I'm not the type to walk up with a proposition like that anymore.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:48]:
Not at all. Not. You are not.
Walker Bird [00:29:49]:
Not my style.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:50]:
Not. Nope.
Walker Bird [00:29:52]:
But hitting on people, depending on degree. I mean, I don't know how the human race continues if there's not some approach. So is that sexual assault or is it a sexual assault because of the verbal nature of it, the way that it's stated.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:12]:
Oh, because of the nature, the way that it's stated. I mean, there's an implied power. Right. Because it is. All of them are about power. Yeah. All. Whether it's money or position.
Walker Bird [00:30:24]:
Sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:25]:
Right, right.
Walker Bird [00:30:27]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:33]:
Yeah. A certain level of entitlement. I can.
Walker Bird [00:30:43]:
Yeah, yeah. I'm sure the law firm, the accounting firm were like.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:51]:
They were.
Walker Bird [00:30:51]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:51]:
It was total.
Walker Bird [00:30:54]:
Harassment.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:55]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:30:55]:
And you can't proposition like that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:58]:
And not something I really understood at that age. I was pretty young.
Walker Bird [00:31:01]:
Yeah. Plus you're 18.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:04]:
Yeah. One of them was 18, and I think the other one was 24.
Walker Bird [00:31:12]:
Yeah, yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:21]:
You are not responsible for carrying the choices that all of those other men made.
Walker Bird [00:31:28]:
Yeah. Or any other guy that doesn't do that. Right. Because there's plenty.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:33]:
Right, right.
Walker Bird [00:31:34]:
But how does any woman know? And so it's just. I feel. But I do feel ashamed about it. It's just like, you know, to see you go through that. The pain, even all these years later, is just so big. So. Well, I guess I've learned more about myself being reactive and judgy about the bear versus the man. And why wouldn't you feel that way? And if it's a common experience, I don't know how anyone gets together if that's the case.
Walker Bird [00:32:12]:
You somehow trusted me.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:16]:
Well, you know, you never felt threatening to me. And when you approached me to share that you had feelings for me, you know, what you said was true, Teresa, I think I love you.
Walker Bird [00:32:40]:
Yeah. I wasn't sexual.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:42]:
No, Wasn't.
Walker Bird [00:32:45]:
So how could it be? Really?
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:46]:
No. And you weren't. I mean, even prior to saying that to me, you weren't sexual with me. I didn't experience my value to you to being. As being sexual.
Walker Bird [00:32:59]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:33:00]:
Yeah. If I had, it wouldn't have ever happened. We wouldn't have had A relationship, because that's not something I respond to. It is not something that is interesting to me or intriguing or macho or powerful or confident or strong. It's just immature, young attachment issues, them needing to feel power. Willing to sacrifice that person for a dopamine hit. No, it's not ever how I've experienced you. So thank you.
Walker Bird [00:33:53]:
It's a good thing. No, it's hard. And I'm sorry. I just. It's like, oh, inappropriate laughter, you know, because I don't know how to handle all this. Honestly, it's just hard.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:09]:
I think it's just staying open and being curious, even when we're reactive. Right.
Walker Bird [00:34:15]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:17]:
Knowing that when we're reactive, it's touching a story, you know, about us in some way.
Walker Bird [00:34:25]:
Yeah. So man versus Bear. I'm assuming that was the consensus on the.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:51]:
Yes.
Walker Bird [00:34:52]:
Internet, too.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:52]:
There was a consensus, sure.
Walker Bird [00:34:54]:
In the comments, were people saying I was sexually assaulted?
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:58]:
Absolutely. Oh, yeah.
Walker Bird [00:35:00]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:35:01]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:35:01]:
What made your. Your co worker, your employee, bring it up? I mean, what was the concept that they thought would be interesting about a topic for us to discuss or how it came up in conversation with you guys?
Theresa Hubbard [00:35:15]:
You know, I don't remember exactly. I mean, you know, based off what I know, you know, about her, I mean, I think she. She values you. You know, she sees you, you know, as a. I mean, I'm putting words in her mouth. So we'll make them good, then. He's the greatest guy ever.
Walker Bird [00:35:41]:
Is that it? Little comic relief from the seriousness of this conversation? Yeah, it's hard for me.
Theresa Hubbard [00:35:50]:
Yeah, I know. I know it's hard. It's hard. It's hard to hear what other people's painful life experiences are, especially in one more put into that group that harms.
Walker Bird [00:36:06]:
Agreed.
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:07]:
Yeah. No, I think for her, I mean, I. I'm pretty sure she listens every Friday when we release it. And I think her. I think what she would say about you is that you are authentic, vulnerable, kind and that. I think she just wanted to really know what our conversation would be about it. I don't know that she had any other expectation. She just said, I'd like to hear you and Walker talk about that.
Walker Bird [00:36:36]:
Sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:37]:
And I was like, oh, okay. And then, you know, it just wasn't on my radar. Right. And then it came back, and I was like, oh, yeah. That we really. That'd be a good one to talk about. Yeah. H.
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:53]:
What?
Walker Bird [00:36:53]:
Well, I'm laughing at myself for my reactivity and judgment about the topic.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:00]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:37:01]:
Because, you know, literally, I was like, what? A crock of, you know, blaming every man's dangerous. But why the hell wouldn't you feel that way if you. If that's a common experience, Good Lord. And if it's not common, if it's your experience, it's your experience. Why wouldn't you feel that way if all those things had happened?
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:18]:
Yeah. I have not said this to you, man. Mowing on the tractor at the land by myself without you right there is terrifying for me.
Walker Bird [00:37:35]:
Really?
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:35]:
Oh yeah.
Walker Bird [00:37:36]:
To go out of sight when I'm up over the hill. Wow.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:40]:
Yeah. I worry. I mean, I do the feel the fear is real that a man will come out of the woods and attack me on the tractor when I go to trim branches away from the trail cameras and you are not with me, you know, it is. I am very aware and anxious and protected. You know, like I either have, you know, a large hedge clippers or something. And I'm very intentional about making sure that I am protected. Looking around, looking around, staying safe. But mowing near the tree line is very difficult for me because it is so dense, the coverage is so dense.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:29]:
And I'm like, that tractor doesn't move very fast. I mean, it does, but it doesn't. Right?
Walker Bird [00:38:33]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:34]:
And so no, it's there. It's a. It's a real fear. Yeah. I just choose to push through the fear so that I can live the life that I want to live. But the fear is there. I don't ever think that a woman is going to come running out of the woods to harm me. I'm sorry.
Walker Bird [00:39:13]:
Why are you sorry?
Theresa Hubbard [00:39:15]:
Because I know it's not you. You're not that guy.
Walker Bird [00:39:19]:
It's not. But it's also not my experience. You know, I never in a million years, if you'd thought, tell me what you think I might be afraid of out here. I don't know that that would have come up.
Theresa Hubbard [00:39:28]:
I know.
Walker Bird [00:39:30]:
Now, sleeping out there alone maybe. Sure. I would feel uncomfortable just sleeping out there alone, you know, because there's the residential facility and that sort of stuff close by. Or was. But not anywhere near the same degree as. I was never afraid sleeping on the trail when I hiked. Not really. So that's why you don't like take the mower.
Walker Bird [00:40:14]:
So why am I always mowing?
Theresa Hubbard [00:40:16]:
Yeah, it's. Yeah, yeah. I'm fine sitting in my car.
Walker Bird [00:40:21]:
Sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:40:21]:
You know, working on something while you go mow. Yeah, I will do it. I will do it again. Easier if I'm not near a tree line where I can see right But. But hugging the tree line tight, you know, to like, you know, trim it up well, causes me anxiety.
Walker Bird [00:40:40]:
Sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:40:41]:
Yeah, sure. Wow.
Walker Bird [00:40:45]:
So what do we do with all this? What do we do?
Theresa Hubbard [00:40:49]:
To me, acknowledging the reality of what people's experience is, I think is the most important thing we can do. You can't fix all those other people that choose to do those things, to try to have power over people by taking from them. But when you hear about it or when someone comes to you, being able to hold space for them in a way where they feel that you see them and hear them and don't try to make excuses or whatever, I think that's what we can do. Raise our men better than we are. I've worked really hard on that as a mom.
Walker Bird [00:41:55]:
Well, let's talk about this for a minute. What's your experience in the therapy room with men not coming on to you? That's happened too.
Theresa Hubbard [00:42:05]:
But.
Walker Bird [00:42:13]:
I mean, is there discussion of that type of behavior that people have engaged in? Like, regret that they did that in the past or probably don't go there would be my guess.
Theresa Hubbard [00:42:25]:
No, there have been men that have expressed regret about choices that they've made, for sure. I think there's plenty of men who've been sexually assaulted by other men. I just don't think men talk about it.
Walker Bird [00:42:48]:
Sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:42:49]:
But I've worked with a lot of men that have been sexually assaulted by other men and by other women, you know, typically in power positions, but not as often. That men have shared tissue. Yeah. That men have shared about being sexually assaulted by a woman, for sure. I mean, if I was going to put percentages between men that have shared being sexually assaulted by a woman, it would be tiny. Tiny. But men that have shared being sexually assaulted by, you know, another man, more common than we want to believe. Also about power, right? No answer.
Theresa Hubbard [00:43:48]:
Just saying it out loud.
Walker Bird [00:43:49]:
Yeah. No, I think it's important to bring it out. What a shame.
Theresa Hubbard [00:44:02]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:44:06]:
I'm sorry for your pain.
Theresa Hubbard [00:44:08]:
Thanks, babe.
Walker Bird [00:44:13]:
And I'm sorry I didn't understand more, but I do now. I know more. Not saying I understand completely because I know I never will. But. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:44:29]:
I am sure that there are people in your life, if you sat down and had a conversation with them and stayed curious, it would be really hard to hear.
Walker Bird [00:44:50]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:44:59]:
Thank you.
Walker Bird [00:45:00]:
Thank you for being brave. That was brave and hard.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:13]:
I love you.
Walker Bird [00:45:15]:
I love you, too.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:18]:
Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth, and we strive to be more compassionate every day.
Walker Bird [00:45:30]:
Sam.