Seeing More Clearly with Dr. Brent Metz

Brent Metz [00:00:00]:
It's cost me a lot on the person. I've had to sacrifice a lot of personal relationships and, you know, working all the time. Even now I'm working seven days a week and it's a little easier now because I can go, I can take a vacation in the summer. We take a vacation around the winter holidays and. But there was a lot of years without any vacation at all, you know, just trying to hold on. It didn't come easy to me either because I'm a first generation college student.

Walker Bird [00:00:38]:
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life. Each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiries that supports all those willing to explore a unique path. We're pleased to welcome Professor Brent Metz to the program today. He's a professor of anthropology at the University of Kansas and also the director of the center for Latin American and Caribbean Studies.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:19]:
Yeah, thank you for joining us.

Brent Metz [00:01:21]:
Thanks for inviting me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:23]:
Yeah. And for our regular listeners, if you recall a podcast from a month or so ago when my son Luke was on and we were talking about intelligence and wisdom. And when I asked Luke who of his professors did he feel like were wise, you were the one of the ones that he mentioned on the podcast and here you are.

Brent Metz [00:01:51]:
Well, that's quite an honor coming from Luke because he's one of the best students I've ever had.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:56]:
Oh, well, he very much enjoyed his time with you.

Brent Metz [00:02:00]:
Yeah, we hit it off well.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:03]:
Yeah. So. So what do you think about that? Being a wise man?

Brent Metz [00:02:14]:
I wouldn't label myself as wise, but I'm more humble than that. But I think I understand the distinction between wisdom, you know, in regards to making good decisions versus, you know, being able to understand and connect information. You know, that's one thing. And the wisdom and knowing what to do with it is a whole other thing. So like I say, Luke, Luke. Attributing that to me, I don't know if everyone would in my circle, in my social circles, but, you know, I think that a lot of people, if not everyone has their strengths. You know, we, we in social sciences, we talk about different kinds of IQ. You know, there's an IQ is a very cultural instrument.

Brent Metz [00:03:25]:
You know, you wouldn't do an IQ test on an Australian Aborigine because what, you know, unless it was, they designed it themselves. You know, because intelligence and wisdom are culturally specific. You know, but there, you know, we hear, you know, them expanding that because of the dissatisfaction with IQ and how it hasn't been culturally contextual. You see expansions of, you know, intelligence, but also wisdom and along the lines of EQ or emotional intelligence. You know, how do you work under pressure, you know, how do you deal with difficult emotions, which is, you know, your expertise. That's a different kind of smarts, you know, than doing a calculus equation, you know. But I think a lot of people have strengths in and experiences that they don't always recognize. I know that's the case with my students.

Theresa Hubbard [00:04:36]:
Yeah.

Brent Metz [00:04:39]:
They can take a semester long course with me and I'll hear them talking out in the hallway and somebody asking, what, you know, what did you learn? It's like nothing. They clearly learned a lot, otherwise they wouldn't have passed the class. And, and the things that they learn that we often don't recognize, you know, emotional strength, organization, ability to think outside the box. These are kinds of unconscious strengths we pick up with experience. Yeah, experience. And experience at my age is something I have. And so I, you know, and I believe that of everybody too. You know, I have always looked up to my elders sometimes too much for the experiences they have and for the traditions they carry and for the respect.

Brent Metz [00:05:33]:
I kind of grew up in a conservative household in a conservative area of southwestern Michigan. And in conservative areas, there's the issue of seniority and respecting your elders is a big thing. I can't say that I am conservative anymore. Um, but some of those values from childhood stick with me. Some of them I've managed to shake for, for, for better, I think. But age and experience and seniority is kind of automatic for me unless I start consciously reflecting, reflecting on that, you know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:19]:
Yeah, sure.

Walker Bird [00:06:22]:
So, yeah, I was thinking about your students in the hallway and thinking that with experience they will come to a much greater appreciation of what they actually did learn.

Brent Metz [00:06:33]:
I hope so. And usually, you know, in career centers now in universities are all about getting them to reflect, you know, encouraging them to reflect on how they do things different and better. You know, college class, I teach a course called Indigenous Traditions of Latin America to first semester, first year students or, you know, freshmen or first year students. And they haven't quite learned yet to reflect on what they're getting. And they may never use Indigenous Traditions of Latin America, the content of that course, but they will be able to think outside the box. They'll be thinking from other people's perspectives, they'll be able to respect other opinions. They'll know A lot more about their own history and history of the world. They'll have a bigger picture to work with.

Brent Metz [00:07:32]:
They have to be organized. If they're not organized, they won't keep up with the readings, and they won't do well in their exams and assignments. There's a lot of things that they're practicing that they don't necessarily recognize.

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:47]:
Yeah, I was thinking about. We did a podcast episode early on, Brent, where Walker has. I don't know what word you would use. Developed a deep appreciation for one of his college professors and how much it was that she. I don't know, offered you, showed you, taught you, exposed you to. What would you say that experience was? How would you define that?

Walker Bird [00:08:17]:
It was she. Her name was Dr. Betty Scott, and she taught a class on creative process. And so she was given. It was liberal arts, given really broad leeway to just open us up to so many different approaches to creativity. And it was just amazing experience.

Brent Metz [00:08:40]:
And that sounds like a fantastic class.

Walker Bird [00:08:43]:
I think of her often, and I'm very appreciative for her efforts to, you know, help us through life.

Brent Metz [00:08:53]:
I have. I have my own professors that I realized how much they've influenced me. Teachers, high school teachers, right through grade school. And I'm. I'm. I'm sorry that I have not, you know, sought them out and. And told, you know, a lot of them are no longer here.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:12]:
Yeah.

Brent Metz [00:09:13]:
But I wish I could thank them now. Now that I realize how they set me in, you know, my. My unique path. And, you know, we all owe it to the people before us who, you know, who guided us, steered us, whether they wanted to or not. Yeah. You know, their example.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:33]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:09:34]:
Or whether we made it easy or not. Especially in the earlier years. I can remember a few that I'm sure I tortured.

Brent Metz [00:09:41]:
Yes. I. I really. That's the other thing. I'd like to go back to my high school teachers and apologize some of them, you know, and all who you're with, too. I mean, the chemistry among, you know, youth can go really off in the wrong direction.

Walker Bird [00:10:01]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:03]:
Yes.

Walker Bird [00:10:04]:
So I, you know, an amazing teacher or professor can make such a huge impact, and it seems like you appreciate that from personal experience and that you're trying to share some of that wisdom with your students now. What. What else motivates you or what brought you to this place?

Brent Metz [00:10:28]:
Well, I tell you, and college had a lot to do with it for me. I grew up in very conservative era, like I said. I went to a Lutheran school from K through 8, which I really appreciate, but I kind of outgrew that. I appreciate what they provided to me. A lot of attention. I had difficulty reading in math, but I got a lot of attention because it was a small school and my teachers are great, that's great. But they also taught me things along the lines of if it, it was kind of a fundamentalist and if this doesn't jive with the, the direct interpretation of the Bible, then it's evil or comes from Satan or something. And that runs obviously against the grain of college where it's all about learning.

Brent Metz [00:11:21]:
You know, there's kind of two ways to look at religion, fundamentalism and reading texts literally or reading them symbolically. And you know, if, if you're a believer in God and God created everything, well then you could, should be able to study everything, to understand and appreciate God, not just some rigid, unchanging text, you know. And so it was my college professors that really liberated me and allowed me to think openly and discover and create and be curious and. And when I was in college, I started out very kind of unreflective about politics, but then I was exposed to the US involvement in the Central American wars, about nuclear weapons. It was back in that era, in the 1980s, I found out about massacres that the United States had been involved in or was trying to sweep under the rug. And it was depressing. It was depressing. It changed my life for the worse really at that point, because I was kind of rosy eye, rose colored glasses, you know.

Brent Metz [00:12:51]:
And then I realized we began to see the problems, problems in the world, and some of them caused by people like me, you know, and some of it's just flat ignorance, you know, and being uncurious about what my government's doing or other people are doing. So I've never looked back, you know, from, since, from my undergraduate days when I got to rub shoulders with my professors and found out about problems around the world, problems for indigenous people, you know, that history of indigenous people especially impacted me. It just seemed so unjust. And like any, unlike any Hollywood movie, where the good guys always end out up on the top at the end, well, that, that often does not happen with history. You got to fight for that very hard. Oftentimes history does not end up with the good guys winning. And so I just felt like I needed to try to correct some or try to help and turn the tables a little bit. And for me, the best way to do that is teaching and research, you know.

Brent Metz [00:14:12]:
So I changed a lot. As an undergrad. I started out in industrial engineering that's what my guidance counselor told me to do. I mean, there were jobs in that the money was good. I did fine in science and math and. But I was pretty bored with it, I have to say. I wasn't. Just didn't light a fire under me.

Brent Metz [00:14:37]:
And I had taken a class from his history professor, Dr. Paul Meyer, who was actually a Lutheran minister. You know, I was told by my grandpa, who was also Lutheran, and all of his, like, four generations back were Lutheran ministers. But I took a class from Paul Meyer, who was a 10 outstanding educator of America Award awardee, twice, if I understand right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:04]:
Wow.

Brent Metz [00:15:04]:
He just. He just turned history. He just made it a living history, his teaching of history, and put it all into context. That's one of the problems with my students is they don't necessarily have a. Have a broad historical knowledge. And so when I teach them about. Well, this happened in 1523, and, you know, New Spain in the Spanish colonies, you know, they have a hard time putting it into context. You know, you have to really couch these things and what else is going on in the world at that time.

Brent Metz [00:15:45]:
And a lot of students don't know. I mean, I've had students didn't know when World War II happened, you know, but, you know, I'm old, too, so I know when World War II happened, because that was still kind of in my memory of my life. Live there and fight there. But it was a big thing, you know, growing up remembering World War II. I mean, it was the. The reverberations of that were still strong when I grew up. And so he. He put it all into context for me, and it was.

Brent Metz [00:16:19]:
I took two classes from him, and that set me on a new direction. Plus, the politics and learning about US Involvement using. About nuclear weapons and the possibility to destroy everything set me on a new path. And I ended up changing majors, four different kind of majors, until I ended up in cultural anthropology. And I was told by my guidance, my career counselor, I don't see you being an academic. You change so much every semester, every year. You're changing all the time. And in an academic career, you got to stick with this for 20 years.

Brent Metz [00:16:58]:
You know, from now, you won't be settled down with tenure probably for another 20 years or so, where you can finally take a breather and relax and start enjoying life a little bit more. And said, I don't think you can do it. And it's like, thank you for saying that, because that lit. That did light a fire under me. It's like, I've got And he's true. It was true. How many of my colleagues and friends have I saw seen go by the wayside, just abandon the process for better or for worse? I'm not saying that I'm smart by sticking with academics. There's.

Brent Metz [00:17:33]:
There's some. You know, some people might question my wisdom on that one. Um, but it was. I was determined. I was determined, and I was determined to do academics, and I was also determined to shed light on histories and cultures and kind of set the record straight and expose people to things that they're usually not exposed to students, you know, so that's how I help. I. My. My help isn't political organization.

Brent Metz [00:18:07]:
I'm miserable at that. It's not, you know, going fighting someplace or. I mean, there's all sorts of ways you can help people who have experienced injustice. You know, teaching is it for me, you know, and I'm not the most outstanding teacher in the world, but I've got. I've gotten pretty good at it. Gotten pretty good at it over the decades.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:32]:
Have you ever wanted to chuck a loved one out a window? Like, not literally, but emotionally? I have.

Walker Bird [00:18:39]:
Literally.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:42]:
If so, we were thinking that our healthier relationships course might be something that you want to give a look at.

Walker Bird [00:18:51]:
Yeah, we really recommend it. We put a lot of work into it. And with the holidays coming up, we recognize there could be joy and happiness, but there can also be a lot of anxiety and fear. Fear as we come into contact with people in our families. It's just the reality of the situation. We really think the Healthier relationships can help you be more intentional and less reactive going in. And if you or a loved one face those situations, we really hope that you'll check out the course.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:19]:
Yeah. What I really believe is that when we can build those skills and we feel more confident and competent in how to interact with people in our families and our loved ones, that overall, the situations are just less stressful. We feel more grounded, we feel more integris. We feel more empowered.

Walker Bird [00:19:43]:
And we're offering 25% off for this holiday season. So gift it to yourself or gift it to a loved one.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:50]:
Yeah. We hope you'll join us. Thanks. One of the words that you use quite a bit, Brent, is reflected or reflective. When do you remember in your life where you became even aware of reflecting on yourself and your choices?

Brent Metz [00:20:16]:
I do. You know, there was a. There was a careers course I took, and I did have the presence of mind to take that careers course at Western Michigan University. It was just a one credit course, and they wanted us to get to know ourselves before we picked a career, you know, and there were tests that you did, but there were also classes, you know, and discussions and I had never been in, you know, in high school we didn't have kind of discussion based classes. It was, the teachers taught us, you know, and, and I remember them telling me to, you know, look at my feelings and everything. And I started crying as a freshman or first year student as I thought of some of the things that had frustrated me and how, you know, life didn't go perfectly as I had anticipated. And I was deathly shy at that time too. I hardly, I didn't really know how to speak to girls or anything.

Brent Metz [00:21:29]:
So I was lonely in that sense. And that was really the first time I kind of thought, geez, I'm not completely satisfied with how things are going here and. But I have been reflected before too. I can remember once we used to pray for everything in the Lutheran school. You know, if you want something, you pray to God and you, you know, by the grace of God, please help me win this baseball game. Help me do well in this baseball game. But then I began to think, and this is like 10 or 11 years old, what about the kids on the other team? What if they're praying too? Why would God pick me in my team over that? And those kinds of religious reflections happened as early as 10, 11, 12 years old. Made me start wondering about other people, thinking about other people, what if they're not even Christian? You know, they all going to hell? Are we the God's chosen or what you're in? So I had to think of, I think, I don't know if I was forced to confront that, but I did confront it.

Brent Metz [00:22:44]:
Even those kinds of religious beliefs, and I'm enmeshed in religion, you know, at that age because I'm going to a Lutheran school, a fundamentalist Lutheran school on top of it, you know. So I started to think outside the box. And I've always had kind of, I wouldn't. I've used humor a lot, sarcasm a lot throughout my life, even as a little kid. Sarcastic remarks and sarcasm means that things, there's always edge to humor because you're kind of turning things upside down to show how crazy they are or how they're not inevitable and things could be done other ways and there's no logic, not necessarily logic and what you're doing and thinking and speaking, you know. So that came at an early age too where I'm just cracking jokes, usually making fun of the way things are done, you know. Yeah, it goes back a while, but there were big holes in myself that I was not catching. You know, that, that I discovered in college when I took that course.

Brent Metz [00:24:16]:
So I had to start thinking about my feelings and it's like, oh, we never had, never done that before. Yeah, not something that's a male thing. That might be a male thing we were doing.

Theresa Hubbard [00:24:31]:
Well, I don't know. I would, I would. As. In my opinion, Brent, it is not a male thing. No, it is a. It is a people thing. I have just as many female clients that struggle to identify their emotional experience as men do. Yeah, women may talk more.

Brent Metz [00:25:05]:
Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:06]:
They're more expressive, but, but not necessarily like, I can often reflect back to a female. Oh, you know, you're angry or sad or feeling abandoned or lonely. And they will struggle with identifying their experience. So they may have, they may have more. They may be used to expressing themselves more. I don't know that they're more accurate.

Brent Metz [00:25:36]:
Yeah, so, yeah, that's true. Need a mirror. You need other people as your mirror and have to listen to them. That's where wisdom comes in, is. Is bouncing yourself off of other people, I think. Yeah, of course we resist that too. I have to say, I can resist that as, as well as anybody.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:02]:
Yes, we do.

Walker Bird [00:26:04]:
Which is a wise statement in and of itself. Right. You know, over. I have to remember to remember to remember. Right, Right.

Brent Metz [00:26:12]:
Yeah, that's right.

Walker Bird [00:26:15]:
So I'm interested in decision making processes as part of the My Inner Knowing framework that we're. That's the basis of our podcast. And it's interesting to me that one of the, like a big decision point for you is going into the guidance counselor and talking about being an academic. And it's the. No, I don't think you're cut out for that. That was a big motivator in that decision process. Can you tell us more how that worked itself through you?

Brent Metz [00:26:53]:
Yes. I mean, it's something when someone tells you you can't do something or that the odds aren't good for you. And I've told that to students myself and I have motivated them. There's a colleague of mine, I won't identify him or her, but I told them, boy, this was back in the 90s. It is really tough to make it in this profession. In anthropology you might have 420 PhD graduates a year and only 100 job openings. You know, you put in all this work and you know, usually an anthropology degree goes between or a PhD five to eight years at the graduate level. Wow.

Brent Metz [00:27:45]:
Then you get out and you can't get a job or you, the only job offer you get is in Alaska or Mississippi or someplace where you don't necessarily want to go. And you know, and then the pay is not great and, and so on and so forth. And, and I told, told that person, I don't know if you want to do this, you know, and frankly, I didn't think the odds were good. In fact, I've told a couple, told a student that too, that was very devoted to this career. And sure enough, those are the two who made it and made it well. And one of them has done very well for himself. And I couldn't really envision it. So that's the proper response.

Brent Metz [00:28:35]:
I think you either let it go or you put 110% into it, but you can't go in between. You can't do things lackadaisical. And so he made me realize that also when I started graduate school at the University of Michigan, our chair reinforced that at the time we were just. Our new orientation in anthropology at Michigan, which is a very prestigious department. And she said something like 68% of you won't graduate. We're just like shocked. It's like this is not what we wanted to hear in the first week of graduate school, but we needed to hear it. You know, that odds are against us and so you have to really hard.

Brent Metz [00:29:21]:
So I wanted to go and I did. But that has cost me a lot. It's cost me a lot on the person. I've had to sacrifice a lot of personal relationships and you know, working all the time. Even now I'm working seven days a week. And it's a little easier now because I can go, I can take a vacation in the summer. We take a vacation around the, the winter holidays and. But there was a lot of years without any vacation at all.

Brent Metz [00:30:02]:
You know, just trying to hold on. It didn't come easy to me either because I'm a first generation college student. Neither of my parents went to college. My grand, none of my, one of my grandparents went to college for a year, a little over a year at Northwestern on an athletic scholarship. And then he got a disease, a lung disease, and, and had, had to, couldn't play sports and lost a scholarship. Wow. Yeah, that's it. That was like the hair, you know, university heritage right there.

Brent Metz [00:30:34]:
You know, I did have an uncle. I had a couple of uncles who went to college. And so they were, they were examples, collateral examples. You know, off to the Side. But. And so things don't come easy for me, and they've never come easy for me in college. Just reading complex material. It's.

Brent Metz [00:31:01]:
It's costing me probably double than what someone growing up in a very intellectual household would have. Would have been done, you know, So I can remember in high school reading my brother's philosophy books. He was going to a community college in a philosophy class, and I got his books, and it's like, I don't understand this at all. So I forced myself to read it and understand it, to figure it out. You know, I took it as a challenge. So that's kind of my. My approach. It's got to be all or nothing for.

Brent Metz [00:31:34]:
For. For some things, yeah. Some things, yeah. There's other things that I play softball and basketball, and it's not all or nothing for those. I'm very happy to be mediocre.

Walker Bird [00:31:48]:
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I'm interested in. You know, I think a lot of us in different areas can approach life with a lackadaisical attitude. And as somebody who has. Has had to reach that point, you and saying, I. It's got to be 110 if I want to pursue this, you know, how.

Walker Bird [00:32:15]:
How do you think? Or what's your advice for people who are in that space that they. They don't know how to be anything other than lackadaisical. I'm into that with young students, especially.

Brent Metz [00:32:28]:
I do. And I do get students who. It seems that academics weren't their main priority as undergraduates in college, which is fine. I tell them that it's fine. And I will get. Students occasionally will say, can I take the exam at another time? Because I really want to go to this concert. And I said, gosh, go to. How big is this concert for you? And it's like, really? It's my favorite band.

Brent Metz [00:32:56]:
I've never seen them. They're finally coming to town or whatever. And I said, go, but I can't give you, and you can't do everything. I'm not going to give you. I can't establish rules just for you. If I establish rules for every single student, my life will be chaos. I'm already very busy. So we have to have one set of rules that everyone has to live by.

Brent Metz [00:33:20]:
But my gosh, go to the concert. It's that important to you. And the exams the next day. I mean, you might be a little hungover and tired, but who knows, you know, maybe you'll still ace it anyway, so try to do both. But you can't do everything at Once, that's just life, you know, that's life. It's not just my classes, it's life in general, you know, so. But I tell them, if they're thinking about graduate school, I say do it because you love it. And if you love it, you'll put your 100 into it.

Brent Metz [00:33:55]:
But if you're just doing it as a sacrifice and there might not be a job at the end of the rainbow, don't do it. You know, someone. People have told me that education is the one thing you can't take away from somebody. You can take someone's spouse away, you can take someone's friends, or you can take someone's parents away, you know, but you can't take education away. And so enjoy those years if you can. If it's a sacrifice to learn about anthropology, whatever discipline, or if you can't stand being under the thumb of professors, and some people can't. They cannot treat professors as authorities, you know, including in the subject matter and whatever. And if you can't handle that, don't do it.

Brent Metz [00:34:50]:
Don't do it. If, you know, if there's any doubt at all that you're not going to enjoy the next five to eight years, don't do it. Enjoy what you're doing and find something that you do find something that you do enjoy. Because that's a lot of. That's a lot of years to be spending sacrificing, you know. You know, do what you like. That. That's one of the advantages we have, you know, in our society.

Brent Metz [00:35:20]:
So many choices. Sometimes it's a burden to have so many choices. I think that's what bogs do. That's down more than anything else is. I've got all these choices, and if I make one, I'm going to have to shut all these other ones out.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:32]:
Yeah.

Brent Metz [00:35:33]:
You know, so we just have so many choices, you know, open up a menu, go to subway. Got like 30 ingredients that you got to choose on your sandwich. You know, all these career options. And even within, say you pick political science, there's, you know, 50 ways to go in political science. So. And students don't want to give up. They don't want to shut the doors to other things. Yeah, some do, but.

Brent Metz [00:36:07]:
But some don't, you know, and. And so they. They stay kind of stagnant, waiting for something to hit him in the face or path to open up. And maybe that, that's. That could be a good approach for them too. You know, wait for an opportunity to come to you, but you can't can't wait forever, you know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:36:31]:
Or you can.

Walker Bird [00:36:33]:
And my grandfather used to tell my dad, you know, either you can make a decision or life's going to make a decision for you.

Brent Metz [00:36:40]:
That's right. That, exactly right. That's wisdom right there.

Walker Bird [00:36:43]:
Yeah, it's, it can be harsh, but.

Brent Metz [00:36:46]:
It was the grandfather's wisdom.

Walker Bird [00:36:52]:
So let me ask you a follow up to this. Just scratch at this a little bit more. And that is in your view for you, this point of do something that you love. How did you know? What was your knowing about pursuing the, you know, the graduate studies in anthropology all the way through knowing. I've got a five to eight year stint here. How did you know I love this enough to step in?

Brent Metz [00:37:18]:
Well, I never got tired of it. I never got tired of learning and I feel so lucky to be in a university environment. Yeah, I mean, if you're interested in learning, geez, there's just so many opportunities, there's talks. I always regret. I'm so regretful that tarn. I couldn't go to that talk today. I couldn't go to that presentation. I couldn't go to that performance because I just didn't have the time.

Brent Metz [00:37:42]:
But if you do have the time, you can fill it up with very interesting smart people. I am surrounded with people who are a lot wiser than I am and it's great, it's, it's really great. But that's me, you know, that's what I'm interested in. Other people are into video games and other people are into soap operas or, you know, watching a lot of screens, social media, whatever. So. But I just love to learn and put things into context and, and, and learn new things. You know, things with AI for example, that has created up, created all sorts of other problems, but also all sorts of other opportunities with students and teaching for that matter. Yeah, that we're still trying to get a handle on.

Brent Metz [00:38:37]:
But I tell my students about A.I. you know, the reason I tell you to be very careful with it is because it's usually wrong. The stuff that I know really well and I know that I know it really well, AI doesn't get it right. It gets in the ballpark sometimes. It's just flat wrong, you know. And so I'm starting to teach my students to critique AI now. Start with AI what does AI say? And now we've learned this stuff. How can you correct it? Because AI draws stuff from across the Internet.

Brent Metz [00:39:14]:
I mean, literally pick the best sources. Right, right. We can put anything on the Internet you want to. And so that's how I'm getting my students to think more critically about AI but don't abandon it. You know, it's a starting point.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:31]:
Yeah.

Brent Metz [00:39:32]:
You know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:33]:
Yeah. For me, I think of it. Brent is brainstorming is what I feel like I use it for. Yeah. Chat. And I have had several arguments about things.

Brent Metz [00:39:46]:
Yes, exactly. Yes. They don't listen very well. Talk about not listening very well.

Walker Bird [00:39:52]:
No.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:53]:
And I'll sometimes. What did I tell it the other night? I think I was like, you need to get your game on, because this is really poor performance.

Walker Bird [00:40:02]:
And it took it first.

Brent Metz [00:40:09]:
But, I mean, at the university level, things are at the cutting edge. You know, we're trying to figure out how to use this stuff.

Walker Bird [00:40:14]:
Yeah.

Brent Metz [00:40:15]:
And all the disadvantages are. And so it's fun to be at the cutting edge of a lot of things. Academics isn't always at the cutting edge. Sometimes we're, you know, far behind on lots of things, but usually we can bring in fresh, the freshest ideas, you know, come and speak at universities, if they're not professors, they're invited to come and speak. So it's such a great atmosphere. And I don't. I never want to leave the university. I've been spoiled, you know, by being around universities my whole life.

Walker Bird [00:40:52]:
Yeah, there's. We were up in Chicago over the weekend, and we. My daughter lives near the Loyola campus, so we were going on walks for coffee and that sort of stuff, and just so we would be in the midst of campus. And it took me back to many, many years ago when I was at the University of Missouri, but there's. I, I. And I'm sure I experienced it differently than you because I don't consider myself to be an academic, but there's a sense of. There's just an energy on college campuses, like a sense of hope that permeates the whole place. And I just, I love that part of it.

Walker Bird [00:41:31]:
When we've been to see Luke at ku and just anywhere they. It. They. They all seem to have, and it's great.

Brent Metz [00:41:39]:
Yeah. You know, and I have a lot of faith in the coming generations from the students I've been teaching lately. You know, they're not. They're not all the brightest stars in the sky. They have, like I say, everybody has their strengths and emotional or intellectual or whatever, but they, you know, we talk about Christopher. Christopher Columbus, for example, in our class. He was not a nice guy. He enslaved people.

Brent Metz [00:42:08]:
He tried to convince the kings of Spain to enslave these people. This was a lot of Money being made from all these Indians. And yet some politicians want to praise Columbus because he was a white guy who led to the invasion of the Americas and the takeover of the Americas largely by Europeans. They see that. They, they, they. We discuss that and they know which, what's the right approach to take? You know, we talk about, you know, if we raise the issue of dei, diversity, equity, inclusion, and I make a sarcastic remark and say something like, we can't say that anymore. We have to say homogeneity, inequity and exclusion from now on, because that's politically correct nowadays. Now they laugh.

Brent Metz [00:43:07]:
You know, they, they know what I'm getting at and they know what's right and what's wrong. They know how to, they're very, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's not a good sample because they decided to take indigenous traditions of Latin America. There's a certain kind of student that wants to learn about right people, you know, so the sample is a little bit skewed, but nevertheless, I'm learning to trust their ethics, you know. Nice. I have, you know, faith in the future that things aren't going in, in the long run, are not going in a totalitarian direction. By totalitarian, I mean executive, legislative, judicial branches, all going in one direction and not allowing any dissent, you know, or any opinions other than their own. These, these students, I think, are, are savvy enough to not let that happen. At least, at least in my class.

Brent Metz [00:44:24]:
It's not a sample of the United States.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:26]:
But, yeah, I have a lot of hope, too.

Brent Metz [00:44:30]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:31]:
Yeah. I work with a lot of different ages and I have a very diverse client population and, and I do have a lot of hope.

Brent Metz [00:44:42]:
Yeah. I mean, I see the negatives too. I see meanness and bullying and our kids, schools and. But the other, the vast majority of students know that that's wrong.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:56]:
Right.

Brent Metz [00:44:57]:
That's wrong. And making fun of people of the way they look and so on and so forth. That is, you know, most of them know that's wrong. We have good school teachers. I mean, if you look at our school teachers, they're not getting paid very much for all the work they do and what they have to put up with. We have all sorts of kids, including violent kids, throwing chairs and stuff in the classroom. And they doing it because they love the kids, they love the country, they love the town, and they have faith, you know, So I just hope that our schools don't change very much because teachers are really putting it on the line. To create the next generation in some ways more than the parents are.

Brent Metz [00:45:50]:
And sometimes the parents, you got two parents working and they only see their kid an hour or two a day and their teachers are in front of them six, seven hours a day, you know, so got to give it a lot to those teachers. I also, when I learned their teaching techniques, they really put me to shame. That's one of the things about college professors. We get very little training about teaching. I had a one credit course about teaching and I had an orientation, like a two day orientation before I was my first, I took my first teaching assistantship position and that was it. But teachers, they get a degree in teaching and you know, Those K through 12 teachers, they have all sorts of techniques and, and wisdom that I don't have as a college professor. And I took a group of 14k through 14 teachers to Guatemala on a Fulbright group study abroad a couple decades ago. Man, I just learned, they put me to shame.

Brent Metz [00:46:57]:
I, I was listening to them, what kind of lessons, plans they were, they were going to do with this material and knowledge they're picking up in Guatemala. That's which is what it was all about. It's like, oh boy, I need to go back to the drawing board because they can teach circles around me. You know, they don't get the respect that a college professor get, you know, and.

Walker Bird [00:47:21]:
Right.

Brent Metz [00:47:24]:
But they do it out of the love, love of those kids, love of the future, hope in the future. So that's good to see still.

Theresa Hubbard [00:47:34]:
Yeah, that's a nice perspective. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting brand. I wish. I mean, I obviously have my small world that I live in. I mean, we obviously meet a lot of people on the podcast, but there is an awareness that young people have of the world that I did not have. And there was. I don't even know if it was possible for me to begin to understand when I was 22.

Theresa Hubbard [00:48:12]:
I mean, I know for sure the conversations that Walker and I have with the kids at the dining table when we're having a meal together are not the conversations I was having with my parents, for sure.

Brent Metz [00:48:26]:
Yeah, I think so too. I think they become more sophisticated. I mean, there's just more knowledge and information available. You know, in my class, if I, I talk about something that they've never heard of and they seem fascinated about it, they race to their phones and look up things on their phone, what maybe what AI says or Wikipedia or I don't know what they're looking at, but they're like shaking their Head like. Yeah. Wow, that's cool. I didn't know about that. I feel a little bit challenged when they feel like they have to go, you know, I sometimes feel like they're double checking me.

Walker Bird [00:49:08]:
They're fact. They're fact checking you.

Brent Metz [00:49:10]:
They're fact checking me. But I also like the fact that they're interested enough to look it up.

Theresa Hubbard [00:49:17]:
I agree.

Brent Metz [00:49:19]:
And they can do that. I couldn't do that. You know, we had to go to an encyclopedia, a set of encyclopedias, you know, when I was growing up.

Theresa Hubbard [00:49:27]:
Yeah, Yeah. I was an encyclopedia reader, I think. Did you read encyclopedias growing up, Brent?

Brent Metz [00:49:35]:
Sometimes we didn't have one in my house until late, until like I was in high school, so.

Theresa Hubbard [00:49:41]:
Okay.

Brent Metz [00:49:41]:
I can remember going to friends houses and they had pictures and everything. You know, it's like I could sit down afternoon and just kind of thumb through these encyclopedias. That was where knowledge was, you know. Yes. You had to look something up. You went to encyclopedia, now it's all over the place.

Theresa Hubbard [00:49:59]:
Yeah, yeah.

Brent Metz [00:50:01]:
So they are more sophisticated, more knowledgeable. I mean, they're just as fragile, maybe even more fragile in many ways than we were. Less self assured, you know, well, constantly.

Theresa Hubbard [00:50:14]:
Bombarded with information, whether they want to receive it or not. It's just there, the stimulation is.

Brent Metz [00:50:24]:
They sent us. They did a survey of incoming first year students over the summer. Maybe they did this during orientation or something, I don't know. But coming into KU, over 60% of them said they expected to use KU's mental health services. Doing their. It's like, that's shocking. I bet in my generation it was probably 1 or 2%.

Theresa Hubbard [00:50:53]:
Right.

Brent Metz [00:50:54]:
They're also learning to use it. Maybe they're learning to recognize, but I think the problems are also more complicated. And you know, nowadays it's. I don't completely understand it because people talk about social media and I don't use it, I rarely use it. So I don't really understand any of that. Don't have really time for it. Other people say you should make time for it professionally because that's how you establish yourself in this new world. But I haven't taken a deep breath and jumped into that yet.

Brent Metz [00:51:31]:
I know those waters are really deep, you know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:36]:
Yeah, Brent, it's an interesting perspective and not that, you know, we don't hear it and know it, obviously. Walker and I do a podcast and put ourselves out there, but I don't know, I think it all depends on what we want and if it's not something that you wanted and what you did was enough then. Yeah. Social media. I mean, I can attest to the amount of time that I have to spend negotiating social media for the podcast is a lot.

Brent Metz [00:52:20]:
Well, and it seems to be one of those things. But if you like it kind of like going to graduate school, then do it, you know. But if it really bums you out every time you get, you know, and the students are drinking this through a fire hose. They do when they walk out of class is they are walking. I almost run into them on my bike. I'm trying to park my bike, and they're zigzagging, looking at the phones, and the world doesn't exist. I mean, people get hit by cars because they were just looking at their phone. So they're really living in that alternate reality.

Brent Metz [00:52:59]:
And I. I frankly, I don't know what. How that affects somebody. I don't.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:04]:
Yeah.

Brent Metz [00:53:05]:
Because I'm not. I'm not doing. There's. There's a place where I don't have any experience.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:08]:
Yeah.

Brent Metz [00:53:09]:
But it's got to be impactful. Like, incredibly impactful.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:14]:
Oh, I think so. Walker and I are currently doing an experiment with social media. We have. We're charging our phones in the other room at night so that we're not going to sleep looking at social media or waking up looking at social media.

Brent Metz [00:53:31]:
Or hearing those dings. Ding every time.

Walker Bird [00:53:34]:
Mine's on silent all the time. I.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:36]:
To handle that. I could.

Brent Metz [00:53:38]:
I haven't learned to do that. I've just learned to ignore the dings.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:41]:
Oh, no, mine's on silent most of the time. Yeah. But it is an interesting, you know, process to just be aware, an opportunity for you to be aware of yourself and the impact that looking at your phone has on you and the amount of data you take in. It's. Yeah, it's a fascinating experience. I use it mostly for learning about other people. I don't read posts as much, as much as I read comments because comments help me understand them. Different perspectives that people have that I would never even have considered.

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:24]:
I mean, I often say, huh, interesting. I never would have thought that.

Brent Metz [00:54:29]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:29]:
And so it's very helpful for me in that way.

Brent Metz [00:54:31]:
It's just another level of sociality, you know?

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:35]:
Sure.

Walker Bird [00:54:35]:
For her.

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:36]:
Sure.

Walker Bird [00:54:37]:
For others who are more. I guess I would say I'm younger in that respect of my life. I'm reactive to the comments, and then I just get all worked up. So. Yeah.

Brent Metz [00:54:49]:
That'S why I hesitate. I know I've seen people respond to some of my things and they would never talk to me like that face to face, probably. And it's like that could ruin your day. I mean, many days people tell you if you let it get to you, but that's also what they're trying to do. It seems they're trying to get to you. They're trying to get us in, you know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:15]:
Right, right. Yeah, go ahead.

Walker Bird [00:55:18]:
We did a post for World Peace Day a few weeks ago and I, I was just sharing that my philosophy of life used to be if you, you know, came at me with a knife, I'd pull out a gun. If you came with a gun, I'd pull out a missile. And that I'd learned to. Actually, it's much better to pause and reflect. I respond to people. Well, you wouldn't believe the comments that came back on that. And so I did. I went through the whole process that you're saying that might happen.

Walker Bird [00:55:53]:
And yes, I was offended by what people had to say because it was, you're going to get people killed saying things like that and you're going to. If you want to have a toe tag and a body bag, that's great for you. But in any event, I was just. Yeah, exactly. And so it's, it's difficult for me and, and it's difficult just to read what other people. Comments on other people's posts too. Just because I get riled up in the. All the political.

Brent Metz [00:56:20]:
Goes back to the 90s, I would say, where the kind of. The politeness of our, our government people. Polite, you know, it hasn't always been that way, obviously, but there was a certain gentlemanly and gentle womanly way that you carried yourself. And then it just got really nasty in the 90s, I can remember, and, and kind of shocking. And Whereas when I was growing up, you know, our leaders tried to calm us down, you know, there was a lot of animosity in the 60s and 70s, but the leadership tried to calm things down and create unity as best they could, it seemed, from my perspective, you know, and everybody sang the national anthem and everybody, you know, celebrated this country for what it was. But nowadays you don't get that. You. It's us against them.

Brent Metz [00:57:23]:
And yeah, it's too bad.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:28]:
Yeah. I feel, personally, I feel like we're constantly in a social experiment and that people are often trying to figure out what our patterns are so that they can manipulate our behavior as best they can.

Brent Metz [00:57:50]:
Yes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:51]:
And often with the, the result being more money in their pocket, regardless of what it is that they're selling. I think we, we, we as individuals aren't important it's really our patterns that are important.

Brent Metz [00:58:12]:
And so, yeah, our culture. Yeah, that's interesting. That's the other thing. News, like, I can remember the news got something wrong. If ABC or CBS or NBC or PBS got something wrong in the news, it was a scandal. Nowadays, you just, you. You preach to your audience. Yeah, whatever.

Brent Metz [00:58:37]:
Whatever your audience wants to hear. And how do you know your audience? Because you've clicked certain things or, you know, and. And they're tracking, like you say, our patterns, and then they just give you what you want. And. And so that's a shame, too, that they're, you know, independent news is. Seems to be going by the wayside, slowly but surely. And I don't. It's hard for me to sort out, you know, what has a political edge and what doesn't.

Brent Metz [00:59:10]:
You know, I mean, it doesn't. There are some stations. It doesn't take me hard. It's not difficult to sort out at all. Everything's got a political edge coming out of certain channels and stations and. But I'm always trying to look for that. Independent news, it's not easy to find anymore like it was growing up. Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:59:31]:
Yeah. It's one of the things that I use chat for often is when I see something and I'm not sure, I'll take a screenshot and I'll ask CHAT to do research and to give me multiple perspectives. I also ask it to give me all bias that's presented.

Brent Metz [00:59:49]:
Really. That's great.

Theresa Hubbard [00:59:51]:
And so it's been helpful for me. I use chat a lot.

Brent Metz [00:59:54]:
A lot.

Theresa Hubbard [00:59:56]:
Luke says I don't know many people that use chat like you do. And I was like, yeah, well, I am. I do have that brain that likes data. And it's a way for me to just to keep learning more perspectives. And then, you know, it links all the research. I have a paid version, so it links all the research, and I can, you know, go in deeper and. Yeah, so, yeah, yeah, it's really interesting to me, but the bias piece has been very, very helpful for me.

Brent Metz [01:00:26]:
Yeah, that's great.

Theresa Hubbard [01:00:28]:
Yeah, yeah, that's.

Brent Metz [01:00:30]:
That's something, too, that I've tracked, you know, and really starting really getting going in the 1980s, it has roots deeper than this, but the idea of everything's relative and it is, but they're. They're also facts or facts. You know, I. I could jump out my window right now, and I can't. Hitting the ground is not relative.

Theresa Hubbard [01:00:56]:
Right. You will.

Brent Metz [01:00:57]:
Dying is not relative. Things, you know, you can interpret what I did when I Jumped out the window and why I did it and so on and so forth. But facts are facts. I jumped out the window and hit the ground. And, um, you know, and so.

Walker Bird [01:01:16]:
That.

Brent Metz [01:01:16]:
Kind of start, that relative ism, started on the left from what I could tell. But I can remember immediately other people, unless saying that's a dangerous thing, you know, if it's just relative, then anybody can create anything. And now we're seeing it on the right, you know, people who I know who are on the right saying, well, it's all relative anyway. You've got facts, somebody got killed, this is happening. Well, that's your perspective, you know, and so some things are actually accurate and some are inaccurate, you know. Yes. And so if you are. And I've had graduate students argue this with me.

Brent Metz [01:02:00]:
Well, that, you know, they were saying, well, that's not the way indigenous people see it. And it's like some of them probably do that way, you know, and either way, facts are facts. This happened or it didn't happen, you know, and. But to say it didn't, that, that. Well, that's your interpretation for something that actually happened, that's taking away political agency, you know, that's taking away the ability to decide and fix something. You know, it's passivity, ultimately, it's to passivity. And it goes both ways now. I mean, the right is using it more than the left, far as I can tell.

Theresa Hubbard [01:02:45]:
Well, what was it you said, your grandfather said about if you don't make a choice, the world will make the choice for you?

Brent Metz [01:02:54]:
Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. That's right. That goes with accuracy and facts and truth.

Theresa Hubbard [01:03:02]:
Yeah. Well, Brent, I know we're out of time and I know you have to go too.

Brent Metz [01:03:06]:
Yes.

Theresa Hubbard [01:03:08]:
Any final things that you want to share?

Brent Metz [01:03:13]:
No, I just would like. I want to thank you for the work that you do. It's a great, great career that you two are working in right now, helping people think about these things. So I appreciate you having me on. It's an honor.

Theresa Hubbard [01:03:28]:
Yeah. Thank you.

Walker Bird [01:03:29]:
Thank you so much. We appreciate you.

Theresa Hubbard [01:03:31]:
Yeah. Thank you for your time and your thoughts and just sharing part of your story. Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth and we strive to be more compassionate every day.