When Holiday Stress Turns Into Something Deeper
Theresa Hubbard and Walker Bird
“Even the smallest moment can open a much bigger story—one we didn’t see coming until we’re already in it.”
In this intimate, unfiltered conversation, Theresa and Walker explore what happens when a simple exchange becomes something deeper, touching the tender places we don’t always speak aloud. What begins as a moment of misunderstanding unfolds into a vulnerable dialogue about reactivity, emotional safety, family dynamics, and the quiet fears we carry beneath the surface.
They trace the path from a passing look to a much larger conversation about past hurt, holiday expectations, the pain of estrangement, and the longing to feel understood. It’s a real-time example of how quickly our nervous systems can shift and how compassion, curiosity, and honesty can guide us back to connection when everything feels charged.
This episode is an invitation to slow down, notice your internal reactions, and stay present when conversations turn in directions you didn’t expect. There is wisdom in the pause, clarity in the reflection, and possibility in the choice to listen inward.
What you’ll learn:
→ Why seemingly small moments can hold deeper emotional meaning
→ How fear, grief, and past experiences shape our reactions
→ Why clarity helps us name what’s underneath defensiveness
→ How to stay grounded when conversations feel charged
→ What repair looks like when both people feel vulnerable
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Episode Chapters
00:00 Holiday stress + the moment everything shifted
02:00 A look that meant more than it seemed
06:00 Feeling on edge and trying to name it
11:00 Boundaries, holidays, and old wounds
16:00 Abandonment, perfectionism, and inner stories
22:00 What repair asks of us
28:00 Fear, tenderness, and choosing compassion
33:00 How to support someone you love
44:00 Unexpected openings + emotional honesty
45:30 Closing reflections
Topics we explore in this episode include:
emotional reactivity, unexpected conversations, nervous system awareness, abandonment wounds, relationship repair, holiday stress, compassionate communication, curiosity, vulnerability, inner knowing
Episode Transcript
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:00]:
During the holidays, are there times that you want to chuck a loved one out a window?
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:04]:
Sadly, yes.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:07]:
If so, we think that it would benefit you to check out our healthier relationships course.
Walker Bird [00:00:13]:
If you or a loved one have anxiety or even fear going into the holidays with the interaction with family members or others, that may be problematic, we really think this course, which we put a lot of work into at My Inner Knowing, could be helpful for you in becoming less reactive and more intentional and help you set some boundaries going forward in your relationship.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:33]:
We hope you'll give it a try. And.
Walker Bird [00:00:34]:
And we're offering 25% off for this holiday season. So gift it to yourself or gift it to a loved one.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:41]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:41]:
We hope you'll join us.
Walker Bird [00:00:46]:
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life. Each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:15]:
I don't feel out of my pattern, but I could be, and I'm just.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:22]:
Not aware of it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:26]:
So.
Walker Bird [00:01:32]:
Sometimes it feels like we go through cycles, each of us. Right. As humans do. So this evening when you told me to look for a photograph for the blog, I was looking, and I was looking at. At first for Frost, because there's a particular picture I took way back when that was a frosted window pane that was in my mind when I did the blog. And then I figured, well, that was sometime in November. And then I didn't find it, so I switched to autumn, and that was the process I was going through. And you asked me, what are you doing? And I said, looking for a photograph.
Theresa Hubbard [00:02:20]:
And.
Walker Bird [00:02:25]:
I don't know, it just feels like, can. I can't put my finger on it, but that you got. You didn't like it because I gave.
Walker Bird [00:02:31]:
You a look.
Walker Bird [00:02:35]:
And I think I did like this. Was that it? Was that it?
Theresa Hubbard [00:02:47]:
Something like that, yeah. Well, I didn't know the process you were going through. You showed me a picture of yourself from 2022 or 20 came up in the process. And then you showed me a picture of a flower.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:01]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:01]:
But I didn't know what you were doing, so I was like, what are you doing? Because I didn't know. Were you just showing me photos or. I didn't know you were looking for something specific. And so I was genuinely trying to make a connection in my brain about what you were doing. I just assumed that there was going to be, I don't know, something from more recently. I didn't know in your thought process you had gone back years that you were looking for an older photo. So then you were just showing me older photos, and I was confused.
Walker Bird [00:03:40]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:40]:
And so I think my confusion. I don't know, I wasn't having a you were doing anything wrong reaction. I just wasn't sure where you were going. When you were showing me the older photos, you were like, this is 22 and this was 21. And so I was just confused.
Walker Bird [00:04:05]:
Yeah. I only showed you a couple. They were just asides. But I actually was doing what you asked.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:15]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:15]:
But I wasn't.
Walker Bird [00:04:16]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:17]:
I wasn't upset or thinking you were doing anything wrong. I was genuinely confused, like you were showing me things, and I felt like. Like there was something that I was supposed to be doing, but I didn't know. I didn't know what I was supposed.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:34]:
To be doing, so.
Walker Bird [00:04:38]:
Well, it feels like you're on edge with me. Like, that's the second time in recent days where, you know, I may have given you. You know, it's not like I threw the phone down and screaming or anything. I just looked at you like I'm doing what I'm supposed to. Granted, there are some offshoots, but not too. I wasn't going too deep. And when you asked me to, me it felt like, what are you doing? You're not focusing. But in any event, I don't think that's the only time because you got upset when I said, I'm looking for photographs.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:15]:
Right. That look.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:16]:
It was that look.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:17]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:05:18]:
What you asked me to do. Yeah. And to me, that's not like a hyper aggressive, you know, God damn it, I'm doing what you asked me to do or anything like that. So I feel like you're maybe, you know, because normally you don't have that reaction, you know, And I wouldn't say that that's uncommon for me to do that. That doesn't feel like out of my pattern. So anyway, just wanted to know if you were on edge. And.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:55]:
No, I don't feel like I'm on edge.
Walker Bird [00:05:57]:
Okay. Because I wasn't particularly perturbed about it. I mean, but there is a little bit, you know, you asked me to do what I was doing it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:15]:
Great. So you don't believe me, that I'm not on edge.
Walker Bird [00:06:29]:
I don't think you said you're not on edge yet, but other than you just did.
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:34]:
No, I said I didn't think that I felt like I was out of my pattern.
Walker Bird [00:06:38]:
I thought you were extremely reactive. When your daughter came up the other night.
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:51]:
When I said that I always. And I said, not always.
Walker Bird [00:06:56]:
You started always, and then you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:58]:
Right. I said off of it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:07:00]:
I said, always. And then I said, not always, but often. When I bring her up, you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:07:09]:
Have.
Theresa Hubbard [00:07:09]:
To let me know that you're not.
Theresa Hubbard [00:07:14]:
Okay.
Theresa Hubbard [00:07:17]:
And even if, like, what I'm talking about isn't asking anything of you, there's a reaction that you have. Like when I. So we were talking about the holidays, and you were talking to your daughter about plans, and you said something about.
Walker Bird [00:07:50]:
You know, I don't remember coming over on Christmas morning.
Theresa Hubbard [00:07:52]:
Right, right. And what. What her plans were going to be while she was in town. And I said something about, you know, does that mean you're not going? To my parents? And so then I said, well, I guess I just need to check, you know, to see what the plan is, because I'll offer it to them for them to go. And then you said something like, yeah, if they're not going, I'm not going.
Walker Bird [00:08:28]:
And I just said, if they're going, I'm not going.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:31]:
Right. Which is like, that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:34]:
Like, I know that. And so.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:42]:
I don't know why you have to say it.
Walker Bird [00:08:44]:
You'll have to give me the other examples. But if you're.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:48]:
I can't give you the other examples. I just, you know, like, I can't because I don't hold on to stuff like that, like, the detail of it, because I've just. I know that you're hurting, too, and so I know that it comes from your own pain, but so am I. And so when you say that, I'm sitting over here trying to figure out how to negotiate what this holiday looks like for me in a place I've never been before. But you have to tell me what your boundary is, which I know.
Walker Bird [00:09:48]:
That's not my boundary. It's reality.
Theresa Hubbard [00:09:50]:
It doesn't matter.
Walker Bird [00:09:51]:
I'm not invited.
Theresa Hubbard [00:09:57]:
I don't know why you have to say it when I'm trying to figure out. When I am trying to figure out what to do. I don't need the reminder. And so I feel like there's, like, some remind, like you're. I gotta get a Kleenex. So I guess the question is, why do you need to tell me?
Walker Bird [00:10:59]:
Well, if you're going to talk in the plural, I need to know other instances where it's happened so I can understand. And I heard you say that you're not keeping score. So you don't keep, you don't hold that. But it would be helpful this time. I didn't feel like you presented it the way you just presented it because I was talking about Libby coming and was saying that she was going to be elsewhere, you know, come on Christmas Eve or whatever, then leave and then come back on Christmas morning. And I hadn't even considered that we would be going to your parents house because I haven't gone for years. And the history of that is when they decided that they didn't like me, then I cannot go where she goes or they go. And so I hadn't even thought about it.
Walker Bird [00:12:09]:
And then it felt like you, the way I remember it is you said, well, will she be going to my mother's house? And to me that was an invitation. And so I'm thinking great. And then you said, but if they want to go. And that felt like the invitation was then taken away by circumstance again. And so what I feel like. And that may be the rest. And this wasn't a conscious. Like I was, you know, logically thinking that through.
Walker Bird [00:12:50]:
But my life has been dictated many, many, many, many, many times over the time that we've been together with changes to the plan. And so that's probably why I said it. But it wasn't to hurt you. It was just I don't get to go if they go.
Theresa Hubbard [00:13:12]:
Right? I don't get to go if they go either.
Walker Bird [00:13:17]:
Not this year.
Theresa Hubbard [00:13:19]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:13:23]:
So what I felt like is maybe you were, I don't know, because my daughter's coming, you were feeling left out, that you don't get to have that this year.
Theresa Hubbard [00:13:36]:
No.
Walker Bird [00:13:39]:
That'S after the fact. That was not a consideration in the midst of all of that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:13:44]:
No. I don't compare what's happening with you and what's happening with me.
Walker Bird [00:13:51]:
Yeah, well, when the opener is always, then I'm immediately on guard. And I know that you pulled back from that because, you know, and I both know that's not accurate. But it must be more often. I don't know about more often than. Not even, but more than this one time. And so I, I would need to know more. But there's no doubt in my mind that I am, you know, there is. And it isn't to hurt you, not intentionally.
Walker Bird [00:14:24]:
I'm not saying that it doesn't. I understand the difference between intent and impact and I'm sorry for that. So I'll have to think about what it is. But I hear you saying, you know, and when you say, well, I don't need to know then it just is on like Donkey Kong, except I didn't get reactive.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:52]:
I don't need to know what. I don't need to know what that that means.
Walker Bird [00:15:00]:
I can't go. And you said my boundaries earlier, but it's really not my boundary. That's not my desire. It never has been, other than it's an impossibility. Right. Because of how they feel. So, yeah, it's just, I don't know, it's hard all the way around and I'm sorry you're hurting.
Theresa Hubbard [00:15:31]:
There is a.
Theresa Hubbard [00:15:35]:
You know, a desire, you know, that I have that, you know, people that are, that struggle so much to find safety, hopefully at some point in their life they're able to find safety. And for me, the, you know, the abandonment piece is such a huge part of the work, you know, that I do, not just for myself, but for clients. And we all struggle with it so much. Whether we call it that or not abandonment. I mean.
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:50]:
How do we make sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:51]:
That I am not abandoned? Thinking about even the conversation that we had on the retreat in Oregon about perfectionism and, and shame and how everybody's.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:03]:
Perfectionism definition is so individual, created by their own circumstance.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:15]:
But behind all of it is shame.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:18]:
I'm not good enough.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:19]:
I'll be abandoned. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:24]:
What can I do to make sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:25]:
That I have value?
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:38]:
So as I'm, you know, thinking about it, like you, you know, that like, for me.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:53]:
Like even in the work that I, you know, do as a.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:56]:
Mental health professional, I am.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:03]:
There's a.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:04]:
Part of me that understands that I will be abandoned by people. And not just abandoned by people. I mean, some people will put a lot of energy into trying to destroy relationship.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:31]:
And so what's important.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:34]:
To me personally.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:37]:
And professionally is, you know, a desire and an effort to repair. You know, we talk about it and.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:53]:
So.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:55]:
I think what happens for me is not right now, it's harder because I'm feeling and working through my own story of not being enough. But what I know for me is that should my daughter decide at some point to repair with me, that there isn't. The only choice is to attempt to repair. Doesn't mean it would be successful. And so I feel like when you say it that way, the message is I won't attempt to repair. I won't. And that's hard because I think about the long term impact of that. Whether it happens or not.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:47]:
I don't know, you know, it may never even be, but that. I don't know what words to use Babe. Protected, defended. I think what happens for me is that I have this ability, and maybe it's always been there. I don't know. Maybe not always. I'm sure it's more developed, like, to put myself in the shoes of another person and not understand what motivates us or drives us when we are feeling like we are surviving. I have not made good choices.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:13]:
I have harmed other people. And so even if I don't agree with the way that she has chosen to handle things, I can understand the desperateness. I can understand the. The survival part. I can understand the things that we do to just try to be okay, even if I don't agree with them. So what I feel like is, should that opportunity present itself where she feels like she's in a different place, she can see the world more clearly to understand what was happening for her, and she should. Should she have that desire and that she reaches out in some way, that you hold the ability for healing for her, and that it makes me afraid that you wouldn't offer it. And, you know, I mean, I assume, you know, that that means with effort, but I think it hurts my heart when it happens, and I just have to work through the impact that it has on my body.
Walker Bird [00:25:10]:
I don't even know what to say. I was in a space where I could have done that recently. You know, this. Right. At the wedding, but I didn't have the information that she had been targeting me in years between me moving out. And so I don't know. I think I've done a lot of work, and I think that it was. I don't know.
Walker Bird [00:25:57]:
I mean, part of me wants to say, why is this about me and not about her? But I guess I'm the one who said the words. Um, so. And for a long time, I didn't think that I would be open to that. And then I was, and then I found out more, and then all of this happened between you and her. So who knows? But I don't know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:35]:
I don't know either.
Walker Bird [00:26:40]:
I want you to have a relationship with your daughter. I don't want to be gunned down in the process.
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:49]:
Agreed.
Walker Bird [00:26:54]:
So I will not stand in your way, but I also will not put myself in that space. So who knows? I don't know how it will develop, but I have a kind heart, you know?
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:09]:
I do.
Walker Bird [00:27:10]:
I mean, I do.
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:11]:
I know.
Walker Bird [00:27:21]:
What else can I say? I won't be foolish, though. I can tell you that I almost was. I almost was around that wedding, and then I was like, oh, my goodness.
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:29]:
Goodness.
Walker Bird [00:27:30]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:30]:
That. Yeah, that will not be.
Walker Bird [00:27:33]:
That could have gone HA to bad. So, Yeah, I don't know. I'm sorry that my words hurt you. I'll try to be mindful of it, keep it to myself. I've done. I mean, I'm continuing to do work around it, babe, but I have no idea where, you know, and that's all I can do because I cannot control the other parts of that equation. And there's you, there's her, there's other people involved.
Walker Bird [00:28:27]:
So I don't know. But what I. I. Here's what I know is that I will be extremely careful about myself in that process.
Theresa Hubbard [00:28:38]:
Yeah. As will I, because. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:28:50]:
But know that I want that for you. The. It's problematic for. Potentially problematic, you know, because depending on how that plays out, it's not all of us together. Right. And so. But what I don't want is, you know, that I interfere with your process of reconnection. I don't know.
Walker Bird [00:29:26]:
I mean, other than my mere presence in your life and, you know, I mean, if that was the linchpin, I suppose you'd have to do some hard thinking, and I would much rather that that be known sooner rather than later because it's just a harsh reality of mixed families. Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:53]:
Are you talking about when you say that specifically, in order for me to have a relationship with my daughter, if she set a boundary that I had to end my relationship with you? Is that what you're talking about?
Walker Bird [00:30:09]:
Yeah. You know, what if. What if that was your choice? You know? I don't know. I don't know, V. It's your daughter.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:18]:
Yeah, it is. It is.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:21]:
And. And my daughter is not going to.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:25]:
Remain a teenager forever.
Walker Bird [00:30:27]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:30]:
She will, at some point be an adult. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:30:37]:
Parts of her.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:38]:
Yeah. Hopefully all of her.
Walker Bird [00:30:41]:
As we all hope. For ourselves.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:44]:
Yeah. For ourselves.
Walker Bird [00:30:45]:
And others.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:46]:
And others.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:47]:
Yes.
Walker Bird [00:30:49]:
Oh, did I just do it?
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:50]:
What?
Walker Bird [00:30:51]:
When I said and others.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:53]:
And others.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:54]:
What?
Walker Bird [00:30:55]:
I didn't know if I was.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:56]:
Oh, I thought you meant the world.
Walker Bird [00:30:58]:
Well, I meant mostly her, but I also meant others, too. But it's really about her. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:04]:
I really meant the world. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:07]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:31:13]:
Well, anyway, I.
Walker Bird [00:31:14]:
There's.
Walker Bird [00:31:15]:
You've got a lot. And no surprise that there would be huge emotion around that. So it felt like. And it feels like that maybe that where. That space where you are is maybe more reactive to me or prone to think that I'm on the attack when I don't think I am. And I'm not saying I'm every move I make is conscious because it's not. But I don't. Didn't have like tonight, you know, when I gave you the look, you know, it wasn't with malice.
Walker Bird [00:32:00]:
It was just like, yeah, I'm doing it, you know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:02]:
Right, right. I didn't think it was with malice.
Walker Bird [00:32:11]:
Well, your energy around it felt like maybe you did to me. So anyway, I don't know, I just. There's parts you that just want to pop and I've been there. It's painful, you know, around the divorce, you know this. My daughter didn't talk to me for what, two years or more? Something like that. I mean there was a few texts but typically it was grenades by text that she would throw and then non responsive to let's talk about that or whatever. Took a long time. It's hard.
Walker Bird [00:32:51]:
Hurts bad.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:54]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:32:56]:
Anyway, I don't know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:33:04]:
Life's very complex.
Walker Bird [00:33:07]:
Yes. What do you need from me around that? I'm sure you can make a list.
Theresa Hubbard [00:33:21]:
Of all the things you need.
Walker Bird [00:33:22]:
I don't probably don't need anything from me. What do you want from me? Let's put it that way. Let me ask it this way. I got a refrain.
Theresa Hubbard [00:33:35]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:33:37]:
Okay. How can I support you? And I mean it. But I'm using your words. I'm serious. How can I support you do better around that? In my. The way that I react.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:07]:
Well, what I think about is, you know, because it's not like I bring it up very often, it's really more around like logistics. But it doesn't mean that it's not on my mind often. And so it's not something people ask me about even if they know. I think there is a. I don't know. If I'm not talking about it, then I must be okay. And so I mean if I'm not specifically saying I'm struggling, if I'm not specifically saying this is really hard, if I'm not specifically saying whatever, I don't know. Even other people think about it, they're not asking me about it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:35:37]:
And I think that it's probably not unusual. I don't think people like to think about what it feels like to have one of your children decide they don't want relationship with you anymore. So like other topics, it probably just gets avoided. But it doesn't mean that the emotion of it or the impact of it isn't still there. So just negotiating, you know, for me, the reality of what it is right now. And it's hard too because you know, the guidance that I get from you Know, their therapist is, you know, and from their dad is to not reach out. And so, like, even the guidance I would give other people what to do in a situation like that, I'm being advised not to do, which is hard because it feels incongruent. And so there's, you know, and I'm trying to be.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:55]:
I am being respectful of their request. I'm being respectful of, you know, what I hear from their dad. I'm respectful of what I hear from their therapist. And all I hope is that what I'm choosing in the long run is helpful to her. But I don't know that to be true. I don't feel confident in that. I just hope that it is. Is that what she needs? So, you know, I do my best to try to stay grounded and think clearly and pay attention, you know, to what other people say that are in conversation with her.
Theresa Hubbard [00:39:08]:
Like, is there something in there that could be helpful for me to learn or understand, you know, about, you know, her or me or our relationship or what she needed from me, what she needed from anybody, not just me, you know, what did she need from her dad? Friends, other family? What did she need? What was it that we were missing? Not understanding, misvaluing. And the reality is, I know there are things. It's impossible for there to not be things. We are going to harm our kids, even if we don't want to, even if we're not intending to. Knowing that I can have a good relationship with, you know, three of my kids and one of them not, you know, working through the, you know, how does that make sense in my mind? And it's a lot. It's just not something that I talk about. I think it's hard because people feel helpless. And so we tend to avoid situations where we feel helpless or conversations where we feel helpless because we like to help people.
Theresa Hubbard [00:40:57]:
We like to give solutions. Try this or try that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:41:02]:
And so.
Theresa Hubbard [00:41:05]:
I think it's hard for people to engage around it. So going back to your question, how do you best support me? I think when I'm sharing things like that, you know, even if it's just logistics, saying something to me like, how are you doing? Would probably be good. Just so that I can have the emotional experience of what is happening for me, because I could stay in the logistics because that's easier, too. And I know it's hard for you, so it's easier to stay at the logistics too.
Theresa Hubbard [00:42:26]:
For that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:42:36]:
Yeah. Just as I'm talking just makes me think of, you know, all the client sessions I've had with people who have had something happen in their life. You know, it can be all kinds of things where they're struggling, they're still going through it, whatever it is. You know, it could be an illness.
Theresa Hubbard [00:43:00]:
A serious illness or a chronic illness.
Theresa Hubbard [00:43:03]:
Or the loss of someone or, you know, a divorce. It doesn't matter, you know, or we're just still working through the process, but, you know, people don't ask us about it later, but we're still in it. So that's what I think would be helpful. Thank you for asking. I know you have a kind heart. I do. Sometimes I get afraid, too. I want my children to have as much healing as they can have.
Theresa Hubbard [00:44:07]:
I want us all.
Walker Bird [00:44:08]:
So what you're afraid of? What's your fear when you say that, what do you mean?
Theresa Hubbard [00:44:16]:
That she would want to repair with you and you wouldn't give it an opportunity. That's the fear that it wouldn't be an option and that what she did have with you, she couldn't ever have with you again. But I'm not talking about without work and effort and time and trust and. I'm not talking about that.
Walker Bird [00:44:44]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:44:44]:
All that's included. It's what it would be with me too.
Walker Bird [00:44:49]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:00]:
Thank you. You were like, I didn't know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:08]:
You're like, I didn't know we were going here.
Walker Bird [00:45:11]:
Nope.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:13]:
It's okay.
Walker Bird [00:45:14]:
Yeah. I love you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:16]:
I love you, too.
Walker Bird [00:45:18]:
I will keep working.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:20]:
I know. So will I. Thanks.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:30]:
Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth, and we strive to be more compassionate every day.
During the holidays, are there times that you want to chuck a loved one out a window?
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:04]:
Sadly, yes.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:07]:
If so, we think that it would benefit you to check out our healthier relationships course.
Walker Bird [00:00:13]:
If you or a loved one have anxiety or even fear going into the holidays with the interaction with family members or others, that may be problematic, we really think this course, which we put a lot of work into at My Inner Knowing, could be helpful for you in becoming less reactive and more intentional and help you set some boundaries going forward in your relationship.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:33]:
We hope you'll give it a try. And.
Walker Bird [00:00:34]:
And we're offering 25% off for this holiday season. So gift it to yourself or gift it to a loved one.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:41]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:41]:
We hope you'll join us.
Walker Bird [00:00:46]:
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life. Each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:15]:
I don't feel out of my pattern, but I could be, and I'm just.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:22]:
Not aware of it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:26]:
So.
Walker Bird [00:01:32]:
Sometimes it feels like we go through cycles, each of us. Right. As humans do. So this evening when you told me to look for a photograph for the blog, I was looking, and I was looking at. At first for Frost, because there's a particular picture I took way back when that was a frosted window pane that was in my mind when I did the blog. And then I figured, well, that was sometime in November. And then I didn't find it, so I switched to autumn, and that was the process I was going through. And you asked me, what are you doing? And I said, looking for a photograph.
Theresa Hubbard [00:02:20]:
And.
Walker Bird [00:02:25]:
I don't know, it just feels like, can. I can't put my finger on it, but that you got. You didn't like it because I gave.
Walker Bird [00:02:31]:
You a look.
Walker Bird [00:02:35]:
And I think I did like this. Was that it? Was that it?
Theresa Hubbard [00:02:47]:
Something like that, yeah. Well, I didn't know the process you were going through. You showed me a picture of yourself from 2022 or 20 came up in the process. And then you showed me a picture of a flower.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:01]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:01]:
But I didn't know what you were doing, so I was like, what are you doing? Because I didn't know. Were you just showing me photos or. I didn't know you were looking for something specific. And so I was genuinely trying to make a connection in my brain about what you were doing. I just assumed that there was going to be, I don't know, something from more recently. I didn't know in your thought process you had gone back years that you were looking for an older photo. So then you were just showing me older photos, and I was confused.
Walker Bird [00:03:40]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:40]:
And so I think my confusion. I don't know, I wasn't having a you were doing anything wrong reaction. I just wasn't sure where you were going. When you were showing me the older photos, you were like, this is 22 and this was 21. And so I was just confused.
Walker Bird [00:04:05]:
Yeah. I only showed you a couple. They were just asides. But I actually was doing what you asked.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:15]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:15]:
But I wasn't.
Walker Bird [00:04:16]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:17]:
I wasn't upset or thinking you were doing anything wrong. I was genuinely confused, like you were showing me things, and I felt like. Like there was something that I was supposed to be doing, but I didn't know. I didn't know what I was supposed.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:34]:
To be doing, so.
Walker Bird [00:04:38]:
Well, it feels like you're on edge with me. Like, that's the second time in recent days where, you know, I may have given you. You know, it's not like I threw the phone down and screaming or anything. I just looked at you like I'm doing what I'm supposed to. Granted, there are some offshoots, but not too. I wasn't going too deep. And when you asked me to, me it felt like, what are you doing? You're not focusing. But in any event, I don't think that's the only time because you got upset when I said, I'm looking for photographs.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:15]:
Right. That look.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:16]:
It was that look.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:17]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:05:18]:
What you asked me to do. Yeah. And to me, that's not like a hyper aggressive, you know, God damn it, I'm doing what you asked me to do or anything like that. So I feel like you're maybe, you know, because normally you don't have that reaction, you know, And I wouldn't say that that's uncommon for me to do that. That doesn't feel like out of my pattern. So anyway, just wanted to know if you were on edge. And.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:55]:
No, I don't feel like I'm on edge.
Walker Bird [00:05:57]:
Okay. Because I wasn't particularly perturbed about it. I mean, but there is a little bit, you know, you asked me to do what I was doing it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:15]:
Great. So you don't believe me, that I'm not on edge.
Walker Bird [00:06:29]:
I don't think you said you're not on edge yet, but other than you just did.
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:34]:
No, I said I didn't think that I felt like I was out of my pattern.
Walker Bird [00:06:38]:
I thought you were extremely reactive. When your daughter came up the other night.
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:51]:
When I said that I always. And I said, not always.
Walker Bird [00:06:56]:
You started always, and then you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:58]:
Right. I said off of it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:07:00]:
I said, always. And then I said, not always, but often. When I bring her up, you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:07:09]:
Have.
Theresa Hubbard [00:07:09]:
To let me know that you're not.
Theresa Hubbard [00:07:14]:
Okay.
Theresa Hubbard [00:07:17]:
And even if, like, what I'm talking about isn't asking anything of you, there's a reaction that you have. Like when I. So we were talking about the holidays, and you were talking to your daughter about plans, and you said something about.
Walker Bird [00:07:50]:
You know, I don't remember coming over on Christmas morning.
Theresa Hubbard [00:07:52]:
Right, right. And what. What her plans were going to be while she was in town. And I said something about, you know, does that mean you're not going? To my parents? And so then I said, well, I guess I just need to check, you know, to see what the plan is, because I'll offer it to them for them to go. And then you said something like, yeah, if they're not going, I'm not going.
Walker Bird [00:08:28]:
And I just said, if they're going, I'm not going.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:31]:
Right. Which is like, that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:34]:
Like, I know that. And so.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:42]:
I don't know why you have to say it.
Walker Bird [00:08:44]:
You'll have to give me the other examples. But if you're.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:48]:
I can't give you the other examples. I just, you know, like, I can't because I don't hold on to stuff like that, like, the detail of it, because I've just. I know that you're hurting, too, and so I know that it comes from your own pain, but so am I. And so when you say that, I'm sitting over here trying to figure out how to negotiate what this holiday looks like for me in a place I've never been before. But you have to tell me what your boundary is, which I know.
Walker Bird [00:09:48]:
That's not my boundary. It's reality.
Theresa Hubbard [00:09:50]:
It doesn't matter.
Walker Bird [00:09:51]:
I'm not invited.
Theresa Hubbard [00:09:57]:
I don't know why you have to say it when I'm trying to figure out. When I am trying to figure out what to do. I don't need the reminder. And so I feel like there's, like, some remind, like you're. I gotta get a Kleenex. So I guess the question is, why do you need to tell me?
Walker Bird [00:10:59]:
Well, if you're going to talk in the plural, I need to know other instances where it's happened so I can understand. And I heard you say that you're not keeping score. So you don't keep, you don't hold that. But it would be helpful this time. I didn't feel like you presented it the way you just presented it because I was talking about Libby coming and was saying that she was going to be elsewhere, you know, come on Christmas Eve or whatever, then leave and then come back on Christmas morning. And I hadn't even considered that we would be going to your parents house because I haven't gone for years. And the history of that is when they decided that they didn't like me, then I cannot go where she goes or they go. And so I hadn't even thought about it.
Walker Bird [00:12:09]:
And then it felt like you, the way I remember it is you said, well, will she be going to my mother's house? And to me that was an invitation. And so I'm thinking great. And then you said, but if they want to go. And that felt like the invitation was then taken away by circumstance again. And so what I feel like. And that may be the rest. And this wasn't a conscious. Like I was, you know, logically thinking that through.
Walker Bird [00:12:50]:
But my life has been dictated many, many, many, many, many times over the time that we've been together with changes to the plan. And so that's probably why I said it. But it wasn't to hurt you. It was just I don't get to go if they go.
Theresa Hubbard [00:13:12]:
Right? I don't get to go if they go either.
Walker Bird [00:13:17]:
Not this year.
Theresa Hubbard [00:13:19]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:13:23]:
So what I felt like is maybe you were, I don't know, because my daughter's coming, you were feeling left out, that you don't get to have that this year.
Theresa Hubbard [00:13:36]:
No.
Walker Bird [00:13:39]:
That'S after the fact. That was not a consideration in the midst of all of that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:13:44]:
No. I don't compare what's happening with you and what's happening with me.
Walker Bird [00:13:51]:
Yeah, well, when the opener is always, then I'm immediately on guard. And I know that you pulled back from that because, you know, and I both know that's not accurate. But it must be more often. I don't know about more often than. Not even, but more than this one time. And so I, I would need to know more. But there's no doubt in my mind that I am, you know, there is. And it isn't to hurt you, not intentionally.
Walker Bird [00:14:24]:
I'm not saying that it doesn't. I understand the difference between intent and impact and I'm sorry for that. So I'll have to think about what it is. But I hear you saying, you know, and when you say, well, I don't need to know then it just is on like Donkey Kong, except I didn't get reactive.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:52]:
I don't need to know what. I don't need to know what that that means.
Walker Bird [00:15:00]:
I can't go. And you said my boundaries earlier, but it's really not my boundary. That's not my desire. It never has been, other than it's an impossibility. Right. Because of how they feel. So, yeah, it's just, I don't know, it's hard all the way around and I'm sorry you're hurting.
Theresa Hubbard [00:15:31]:
There is a.
Theresa Hubbard [00:15:35]:
You know, a desire, you know, that I have that, you know, people that are, that struggle so much to find safety, hopefully at some point in their life they're able to find safety. And for me, the, you know, the abandonment piece is such a huge part of the work, you know, that I do, not just for myself, but for clients. And we all struggle with it so much. Whether we call it that or not abandonment. I mean.
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:50]:
How do we make sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:51]:
That I am not abandoned? Thinking about even the conversation that we had on the retreat in Oregon about perfectionism and, and shame and how everybody's.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:03]:
Perfectionism definition is so individual, created by their own circumstance.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:15]:
But behind all of it is shame.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:18]:
I'm not good enough.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:19]:
I'll be abandoned. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:24]:
What can I do to make sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:25]:
That I have value?
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:38]:
So as I'm, you know, thinking about it, like you, you know, that like, for me.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:53]:
Like even in the work that I, you know, do as a.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:56]:
Mental health professional, I am.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:03]:
There's a.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:04]:
Part of me that understands that I will be abandoned by people. And not just abandoned by people. I mean, some people will put a lot of energy into trying to destroy relationship.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:31]:
And so what's important.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:34]:
To me personally.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:37]:
And professionally is, you know, a desire and an effort to repair. You know, we talk about it and.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:53]:
So.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:55]:
I think what happens for me is not right now, it's harder because I'm feeling and working through my own story of not being enough. But what I know for me is that should my daughter decide at some point to repair with me, that there isn't. The only choice is to attempt to repair. Doesn't mean it would be successful. And so I feel like when you say it that way, the message is I won't attempt to repair. I won't. And that's hard because I think about the long term impact of that. Whether it happens or not.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:47]:
I don't know, you know, it may never even be, but that. I don't know what words to use Babe. Protected, defended. I think what happens for me is that I have this ability, and maybe it's always been there. I don't know. Maybe not always. I'm sure it's more developed, like, to put myself in the shoes of another person and not understand what motivates us or drives us when we are feeling like we are surviving. I have not made good choices.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:13]:
I have harmed other people. And so even if I don't agree with the way that she has chosen to handle things, I can understand the desperateness. I can understand the. The survival part. I can understand the things that we do to just try to be okay, even if I don't agree with them. So what I feel like is, should that opportunity present itself where she feels like she's in a different place, she can see the world more clearly to understand what was happening for her, and she should. Should she have that desire and that she reaches out in some way, that you hold the ability for healing for her, and that it makes me afraid that you wouldn't offer it. And, you know, I mean, I assume, you know, that that means with effort, but I think it hurts my heart when it happens, and I just have to work through the impact that it has on my body.
Walker Bird [00:25:10]:
I don't even know what to say. I was in a space where I could have done that recently. You know, this. Right. At the wedding, but I didn't have the information that she had been targeting me in years between me moving out. And so I don't know. I think I've done a lot of work, and I think that it was. I don't know.
Walker Bird [00:25:57]:
I mean, part of me wants to say, why is this about me and not about her? But I guess I'm the one who said the words. Um, so. And for a long time, I didn't think that I would be open to that. And then I was, and then I found out more, and then all of this happened between you and her. So who knows? But I don't know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:35]:
I don't know either.
Walker Bird [00:26:40]:
I want you to have a relationship with your daughter. I don't want to be gunned down in the process.
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:49]:
Agreed.
Walker Bird [00:26:54]:
So I will not stand in your way, but I also will not put myself in that space. So who knows? I don't know how it will develop, but I have a kind heart, you know?
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:09]:
I do.
Walker Bird [00:27:10]:
I mean, I do.
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:11]:
I know.
Walker Bird [00:27:21]:
What else can I say? I won't be foolish, though. I can tell you that I almost was. I almost was around that wedding, and then I was like, oh, my goodness.
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:29]:
Goodness.
Walker Bird [00:27:30]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:30]:
That. Yeah, that will not be.
Walker Bird [00:27:33]:
That could have gone HA to bad. So, Yeah, I don't know. I'm sorry that my words hurt you. I'll try to be mindful of it, keep it to myself. I've done. I mean, I'm continuing to do work around it, babe, but I have no idea where, you know, and that's all I can do because I cannot control the other parts of that equation. And there's you, there's her, there's other people involved.
Walker Bird [00:28:27]:
So I don't know. But what I. I. Here's what I know is that I will be extremely careful about myself in that process.
Theresa Hubbard [00:28:38]:
Yeah. As will I, because. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:28:50]:
But know that I want that for you. The. It's problematic for. Potentially problematic, you know, because depending on how that plays out, it's not all of us together. Right. And so. But what I don't want is, you know, that I interfere with your process of reconnection. I don't know.
Walker Bird [00:29:26]:
I mean, other than my mere presence in your life and, you know, I mean, if that was the linchpin, I suppose you'd have to do some hard thinking, and I would much rather that that be known sooner rather than later because it's just a harsh reality of mixed families. Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:53]:
Are you talking about when you say that specifically, in order for me to have a relationship with my daughter, if she set a boundary that I had to end my relationship with you? Is that what you're talking about?
Walker Bird [00:30:09]:
Yeah. You know, what if. What if that was your choice? You know? I don't know. I don't know, V. It's your daughter.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:18]:
Yeah, it is. It is.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:21]:
And. And my daughter is not going to.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:25]:
Remain a teenager forever.
Walker Bird [00:30:27]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:30]:
She will, at some point be an adult. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:30:37]:
Parts of her.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:38]:
Yeah. Hopefully all of her.
Walker Bird [00:30:41]:
As we all hope. For ourselves.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:44]:
Yeah. For ourselves.
Walker Bird [00:30:45]:
And others.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:46]:
And others.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:47]:
Yes.
Walker Bird [00:30:49]:
Oh, did I just do it?
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:50]:
What?
Walker Bird [00:30:51]:
When I said and others.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:53]:
And others.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:54]:
What?
Walker Bird [00:30:55]:
I didn't know if I was.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:56]:
Oh, I thought you meant the world.
Walker Bird [00:30:58]:
Well, I meant mostly her, but I also meant others, too. But it's really about her. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:04]:
I really meant the world. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:07]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:31:13]:
Well, anyway, I.
Walker Bird [00:31:14]:
There's.
Walker Bird [00:31:15]:
You've got a lot. And no surprise that there would be huge emotion around that. So it felt like. And it feels like that maybe that where. That space where you are is maybe more reactive to me or prone to think that I'm on the attack when I don't think I am. And I'm not saying I'm every move I make is conscious because it's not. But I don't. Didn't have like tonight, you know, when I gave you the look, you know, it wasn't with malice.
Walker Bird [00:32:00]:
It was just like, yeah, I'm doing it, you know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:02]:
Right, right. I didn't think it was with malice.
Walker Bird [00:32:11]:
Well, your energy around it felt like maybe you did to me. So anyway, I don't know, I just. There's parts you that just want to pop and I've been there. It's painful, you know, around the divorce, you know this. My daughter didn't talk to me for what, two years or more? Something like that. I mean there was a few texts but typically it was grenades by text that she would throw and then non responsive to let's talk about that or whatever. Took a long time. It's hard.
Walker Bird [00:32:51]:
Hurts bad.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:54]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:32:56]:
Anyway, I don't know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:33:04]:
Life's very complex.
Walker Bird [00:33:07]:
Yes. What do you need from me around that? I'm sure you can make a list.
Theresa Hubbard [00:33:21]:
Of all the things you need.
Walker Bird [00:33:22]:
I don't probably don't need anything from me. What do you want from me? Let's put it that way. Let me ask it this way. I got a refrain.
Theresa Hubbard [00:33:35]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:33:37]:
Okay. How can I support you? And I mean it. But I'm using your words. I'm serious. How can I support you do better around that? In my. The way that I react.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:07]:
Well, what I think about is, you know, because it's not like I bring it up very often, it's really more around like logistics. But it doesn't mean that it's not on my mind often. And so it's not something people ask me about even if they know. I think there is a. I don't know. If I'm not talking about it, then I must be okay. And so I mean if I'm not specifically saying I'm struggling, if I'm not specifically saying this is really hard, if I'm not specifically saying whatever, I don't know. Even other people think about it, they're not asking me about it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:35:37]:
And I think that it's probably not unusual. I don't think people like to think about what it feels like to have one of your children decide they don't want relationship with you anymore. So like other topics, it probably just gets avoided. But it doesn't mean that the emotion of it or the impact of it isn't still there. So just negotiating, you know, for me, the reality of what it is right now. And it's hard too because you know, the guidance that I get from you Know, their therapist is, you know, and from their dad is to not reach out. And so, like, even the guidance I would give other people what to do in a situation like that, I'm being advised not to do, which is hard because it feels incongruent. And so there's, you know, and I'm trying to be.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:55]:
I am being respectful of their request. I'm being respectful of, you know, what I hear from their dad. I'm respectful of what I hear from their therapist. And all I hope is that what I'm choosing in the long run is helpful to her. But I don't know that to be true. I don't feel confident in that. I just hope that it is. Is that what she needs? So, you know, I do my best to try to stay grounded and think clearly and pay attention, you know, to what other people say that are in conversation with her.
Theresa Hubbard [00:39:08]:
Like, is there something in there that could be helpful for me to learn or understand, you know, about, you know, her or me or our relationship or what she needed from me, what she needed from anybody, not just me, you know, what did she need from her dad? Friends, other family? What did she need? What was it that we were missing? Not understanding, misvaluing. And the reality is, I know there are things. It's impossible for there to not be things. We are going to harm our kids, even if we don't want to, even if we're not intending to. Knowing that I can have a good relationship with, you know, three of my kids and one of them not, you know, working through the, you know, how does that make sense in my mind? And it's a lot. It's just not something that I talk about. I think it's hard because people feel helpless. And so we tend to avoid situations where we feel helpless or conversations where we feel helpless because we like to help people.
Theresa Hubbard [00:40:57]:
We like to give solutions. Try this or try that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:41:02]:
And so.
Theresa Hubbard [00:41:05]:
I think it's hard for people to engage around it. So going back to your question, how do you best support me? I think when I'm sharing things like that, you know, even if it's just logistics, saying something to me like, how are you doing? Would probably be good. Just so that I can have the emotional experience of what is happening for me, because I could stay in the logistics because that's easier, too. And I know it's hard for you, so it's easier to stay at the logistics too.
Theresa Hubbard [00:42:26]:
For that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:42:36]:
Yeah. Just as I'm talking just makes me think of, you know, all the client sessions I've had with people who have had something happen in their life. You know, it can be all kinds of things where they're struggling, they're still going through it, whatever it is. You know, it could be an illness.
Theresa Hubbard [00:43:00]:
A serious illness or a chronic illness.
Theresa Hubbard [00:43:03]:
Or the loss of someone or, you know, a divorce. It doesn't matter, you know, or we're just still working through the process, but, you know, people don't ask us about it later, but we're still in it. So that's what I think would be helpful. Thank you for asking. I know you have a kind heart. I do. Sometimes I get afraid, too. I want my children to have as much healing as they can have.
Theresa Hubbard [00:44:07]:
I want us all.
Walker Bird [00:44:08]:
So what you're afraid of? What's your fear when you say that, what do you mean?
Theresa Hubbard [00:44:16]:
That she would want to repair with you and you wouldn't give it an opportunity. That's the fear that it wouldn't be an option and that what she did have with you, she couldn't ever have with you again. But I'm not talking about without work and effort and time and trust and. I'm not talking about that.
Walker Bird [00:44:44]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:44:44]:
All that's included. It's what it would be with me too.
Walker Bird [00:44:49]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:00]:
Thank you. You were like, I didn't know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:08]:
You're like, I didn't know we were going here.
Walker Bird [00:45:11]:
Nope.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:13]:
It's okay.
Walker Bird [00:45:14]:
Yeah. I love you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:16]:
I love you, too.
Walker Bird [00:45:18]:
I will keep working.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:20]:
I know. So will I. Thanks.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:30]:
Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth, and we strive to be more compassionate every day.