Sibling Rivalry Across a Lifetime

Walker Bird [00:00:01]:
Have you ever felt confused or overwhelmed in relationships? Theresa and I have come up with a free mini course that we think will really help you out with a lot of the common relationship experiences so that you can improve your communication skills with all of the people in your life and really make a change for the better.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:18]:
Yeah, we really believe that everybody deserves the opportunity to learn healthy relationship skills so that we can get through life having a good, healthy relationship experience. So click the link, put your email in, you'll get the PDF, spend a few hours working on it, and please let us know what your experience is. We know it will benefit you in some way. Thanks.

Walker Bird [00:00:41]:
Thank you. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:44]:
Okay.

Walker Bird [00:00:45]:
I thought that one was pretty good.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:46]:
Okay, sounds good. Okay, check, check.

Walker Bird [00:00:50]:
So the sister that's two years older than me gave me a Christmas gift last year, which is the birth order book. And I was, I have been. And still, I still am, I guess, resistant to opening it. I'm like, well, I wonder what that message is. So, because I was the youngest, you know, and there's a lot of, I think, some common things that people say about the baby of the first family, etc, and especially since I was the first boy, that is the kind of sibling rivalry that I think happens. My inner knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:02]:
Well, hello. Hello.

Walker Bird [00:02:07]:
You snuck that one in on me. I wasn't ready.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:10]:
How are you, sneaky?

Walker Bird [00:02:11]:
I am exhausted.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:14]:
Yeah. Getting ready for trial, I guess. And health stuff.

Walker Bird [00:02:18]:
Yeah, yeah. Struggle, struggle, struggle, struggle.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:22]:
And personal work stuff.

Walker Bird [00:02:23]:
Yeah. And physical therapy.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:26]:
Physical therapy.

Walker Bird [00:02:27]:
Massage therapy.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:30]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:02:30]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:31]:
A lot of body work today. Yeah, yeah.

Walker Bird [00:02:36]:
Not a lot of work work. As I went to my mental health practitioner, I went to my physical therapist and then I went to my. To a new massage lady. Yeah, it's not like go for massages all the time, but because of the hip thing going on, I decided I needed to take further action since physical therapy wasn't doing it. So anyway, that was five hours of my day.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:00]:
I think you need to ask Mandy about seeing Esteban.

Walker Bird [00:03:07]:
You know Esteban?

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:08]:
I don't know Esteban, but I've heard about Esteban. Okay, so we'll have to ask Mandy about Esteban. All right. Okay.

Walker Bird [00:03:14]:
I thought the lady today was great.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:16]:
Oh, I think Esteban's a physical therapist.

Walker Bird [00:03:18]:
Oh, okay.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:19]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:03:22]:
So we were talking about different things that we might visit about today. And one is sibling rivalry across a lifetime. And this one seemed to speak to you a lot. So we're going to lead off with you, but I'm sure I'll have plenty to say because I got a lot of siblings. Yeah, there's 12 of us, as a matter of fact, from different families, but. Or different marriages of the two parents. But in any event, you have many siblings of your own.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:56]:
I do.

Walker Bird [00:03:56]:
Your parents are still alive.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:58]:
They are. And still married.

Walker Bird [00:04:00]:
So when you get together, because you guys get together a lot, you know, it's really nice that your mom still, the way I see it, as an outsider's view, is she kind of the glue. You know, she has an expectation that ever, you know, we're going to do this and, you know, not everybody comes every time, but it's really nice, so. But when you do get together, do you find yourself whether your parents are present or not? And it may be different when they're not there, but if they're there or they're not. Do you have an experience of vying for your spot in the pecking order?

Theresa Hubbard [00:04:42]:
Oh, it's changed a lot over the years. Not anymore. But I was the fifth of eight, so there was plenty of that growing up. Plenty.

Walker Bird [00:05:01]:
Do you remember that TV show called Eight is Enough?

Theresa Hubbard [00:05:06]:
Yeah. Anyway, it is enough.

Walker Bird [00:05:07]:
It's a lot double the Brady Bunch.

Theresa Hubbard [00:05:09]:
And they had. Right. And they had a lot of sibling rivalry in the Brady Bunch. The funny thing is, is I don't remember if eight is enough. Did. Did they.

Walker Bird [00:05:28]:
I don't remember. You know, I was 9 or 10 years old when I was. But I, I vaguely. I mean, what I remember about the Brady Bunch is Marcia, Marcia, Marcia.

Theresa Hubbard [00:05:37]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:05:38]:
When Jan was jealous.

Theresa Hubbard [00:05:39]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:05:40]:
Everything was about Marcia.

Theresa Hubbard [00:05:41]:
So plenty, plenty of sibling rivalry going on. Yeah, I know there's a lot of theory out there about siblings and birth order and roles we play, you know, in the family. And it's interesting. I wish I remember exactly how this topic came up for me, but I know I was doing some work with a client and the thought came to me, do we struggle so much even when we're an adult, because we're still in competition for our parents attention and I don't think they have to even be alive anymore. I think it can be in our mind proving something to even our siblings, even if our parents aren't around anymore, that I'm. That I value. I mean, if you want to come down to it, that I have value regardless of what the struggle is about. I feel like, you know, for me personally, I have done a lot of trauma work around my parents, you know, and at this point in my life, I recognize in a really clear way, regardless of the struggles, my parents worked so hard for us to have a good life, truly.

Walker Bird [00:07:26]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I see that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:29]:
Yeah. And so the things that I learned from them, either directly or indirectly, what I feel like happened for me and doing all that work was that I had some level of awareness that I think has grown the last few years in particular, that I don't need anything from them anymore. I do know that they love me, even if in the ways that I needed it, wasn't always the ways that I needed it, but absolutely. When I was younger, trying to prove that I was good enough, smart enough, I would say attractive enough to a degree, Even though I don't really remember my mom and dad saying much about appearance, I know that it had to have been in there somewhere. You've shared that.

Walker Bird [00:08:35]:
There were, like, wait, comments Occasionally.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:38]:
Occasionally by my parents.

Walker Bird [00:08:40]:
More oblique, but still.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:41]:
Yeah. My mom's family was much more direct about it, but my parents themselves, not very much. I remember my mom saying more about herself than me or any of my siblings. I remember a conversation with my dad when I was in high school, when I injured myself, you know, and he made a comment that if I lost weight, maybe that would have been helpful for me, not injuring myself, which, come to find out, really is just a genetic thing that myself and all of my children have struggled with as well. And then we tend to grow out of it by the time we're in our 20s. But that recognition that I'm not seeking approval from them anymore, and not in a disconnected way. I mean, I love my parents. I mean, I, again, can see how hard it is that they worked to raise us, the seven of us, because I had a sister, Alice, that died when she was an infant.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:42]:
And so it was a lot. Um, and on the little amount, you know, that they had, they did provide well for us. But I don't know that that's a place that many of us get to where we're done needing our parents to see us, hear us, value us, love us in all the ways that we need. Right. Like they may in their own way, in their limited emotional way or mental way. But I think we're often still in competition with each other.

Walker Bird [00:10:30]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:31]:
Hoping that our parents will see our value. And if not, if. Again, if they're not around that our siblings will see our value. Which makes me think about a conversation we had last year, just about some sibling. We are having a conversation.

Walker Bird [00:10:52]:
Falling back into rules.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:55]:
Yeah. So as someone who. Both of your parents have passed and your dad. Not quite 10 years ago. Right. But close.

Walker Bird [00:11:07]:
11.

Theresa Hubbard [00:11:07]:
Oh, 10. 11 years. Oh, okay.

Walker Bird [00:11:10]:
2014.

Theresa Hubbard [00:11:11]:
Okay. And then your mom.

Walker Bird [00:11:15]:
1993.

Theresa Hubbard [00:11:16]:
Wow. 32 years ago.

Walker Bird [00:11:19]:
Yep. 93.

Theresa Hubbard [00:11:20]:
Yeah. You were a young man.

Walker Bird [00:11:22]:
She was a young woman. She was a year younger. Two years younger. Three years younger than I am now. She died at 54.

Theresa Hubbard [00:11:29]:
Wow.

Walker Bird [00:11:30]:
Lung cancer.

Theresa Hubbard [00:11:31]:
Wow.

Walker Bird [00:11:32]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:11:33]:
Wow.

Walker Bird [00:11:34]:
Just a baby.

Theresa Hubbard [00:11:37]:
So what's it like for you, you know, when I mention that about parents, like, how. I mean, is there a part of you that's still hoping that they could have seen you, heard you, mirrored you, loved you in the ways that you wanted and needed?

Walker Bird [00:11:56]:
Oh, sure. And then also. Also in the sibling context. But it might. We're the oldest of multiple marriages. Right. The first, our parents were married when they were kids, and then they both got married three or four more times. So, so but just with that, my.

Walker Bird [00:12:19]:
It's. I was the youngest of that first group. I have three older sisters, and then me. And if this is interesting, my. The sister, that's. When we're all two years apart. So the sister that's two years older than me gave me a Christmas gift last year, which is the birth order book. And I was, I have been.

Walker Bird [00:12:43]:
And still, I still am, I guess, resistant to opening it. I'm like, well, I wonder what that message is. So, because I was the youngest, you know, and there's a lot of, I think some common things that people say about the baby of the family, etc. And especially since I was the first boy, that is the kind of sibling rivalry that I think happens. But with me and my mother, the piece that's like, still, I guess, broken for me is. And I was thinking about this just the other day. She wrote this song. She played the guitar.

Walker Bird [00:13:36]:
She wrote this song about my three sisters. Each one of them was a different type of flower, but there was no flower for me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:49]:
Oh, I've not heard this story.

Walker Bird [00:13:53]:
Yeah. So, you know, I think it just goes. I'm going way beyond what we started with. But that I, I, I believe that I was the safe attempt to save the marriage baby. And the fact that I was a boy gave additional, you know, hope that that would happen. And it didn't.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:18]:
And.

Walker Bird [00:14:21]:
You know, she, she was loving and in lots of different ways, but I still have that feeling that you know, I was less than as a boy and as the thing that didn't work. Just more burden on her, you know, she had a lot of burden taking care of all those kids. Yeah, it's nothing compared to your mother. And so anyway, there's that and my sisters, you know, that we just. We have different feelings about mom. You know, there's still. And I've worked on it a lot and some forgiveness has come in. Just has come to me.

Walker Bird [00:15:03]:
Just in the last year. This year when I went to Sedona, Mago was doing some deep body work, frankly. And some forgiveness came in a meditation. But it's. You know, we move in stages. Right. We wanted to just click the switch and all better and.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:23]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:15:23]:
I don't know that we. I'm not sure that we ever get all better, but like you say, you know, less intense and less often.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:32]:
Yeah, right. Yeah. It doesn't last as long.

Walker Bird [00:15:35]:
Yeah. But, you know, and so. But it's just like a scar on your body. You know, you see it, but you don't think about it much anymore. You know, some days it itches a little bit. I don't think about. Well, you know, the time I put my hand through the window, you know, that sort of thing when I see it. But, you know, every once in a.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:52]:
While time you put your hand through the window.

Walker Bird [00:15:55]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:57]:
What was that? Oh, yeah, you told me about that. It's been a long time.

Walker Bird [00:16:02]:
And there's the scar on my forehead.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:04]:
Yeah, right here.

Walker Bird [00:16:05]:
Oh, wrong side. Yeah. Ran through a glass door.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:10]:
As did I. Yeah. Is that what brought us together? We both ran through.

Walker Bird [00:16:26]:
I like. I love you.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:30]:
You are nut. Okay, keep going.

Walker Bird [00:16:35]:
Well, I. There was. And then from on my sister's side, which is fascinating since the sex thing came up, you know, as the only boy, I think there was a lot of resentment. Resentment especially. Well, most forcibly by my oldest sister and then second oldest sister, not so much, you know, quiet, kind. It's kind of the classic middle child, I guess, if you classify people in those things. But whatever, you know. And then there's my.

Walker Bird [00:17:10]:
The one that's two years older than me. And I'm sure that there was some of that feeling because she was athletic and she wanted my dad's attention, you know, it was important. And she.

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:28]:
I mean, he.

Walker Bird [00:17:29]:
I remember him trying to give it, you know, give her. But not enough. Yeah, right. It was so sporadic and so I think there's still that, you know. Oh, the baby. And I got special consideration because I was a boy and remember this is old school days. I mean, probably not as old school as we'd all like it to be, right?

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:55]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:17:56]:
But there was a big. There was a big money focus in my family that came from my grandparents, and my grandmother was. Grew up wealthy. My grandfather came from, you know, nothing. And it was just this overarching thing in his life which he passed down to me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:23]:
Right, right.

Walker Bird [00:18:24]:
Because it's still significant, you know, And I've gone through periods where I've said, you know, I don't care about that, and then. And then I do. But I decided I'd rather care about it and. And ask for abundance than eschew it and live in lack. Because I've been in lack. I mean, not like a lot of people, but still.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:48]:
Mm.

Walker Bird [00:18:49]:
Struggling to pay the bills, et cetera. So on. Set that aside. Here's the deal. He did well for himself, and it wasn't, you know, well, I don't want to go there. It was a lot of money. Okay. Not gazillions, like, you know, crazy, but a lot.

Walker Bird [00:19:11]:
And so both grandparents. My grandmother focused on things because she had fine things, different China from Europe or her dad had traveled and pieces of furniture and all those things. And so from the time I was little, she would tell each of us what we were going to get, and then she might change her mind.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:43]:
Yeah, that's a lot.

Walker Bird [00:19:44]:
That's a lot. And probably a whole lot other episode. But the. The what? The point that I'm trying circuitously to get to is this. The. From the money perspective. My oldest sister was very clear to her that I was being treated differently. And as a man, for example, we'd go to Thanksgiving at their house, and everybody would.

Walker Bird [00:20:16]:
You know, it was. Dinner would be over, and then my grandfather would say, you girls go help your grandmother in the kitchen. Which is an appropriate thing to do if children haven't been taught to help. And then he would say, you stay here to me. And so that was fine by me. And this is. Shoot. I was probably eight.

Walker Bird [00:20:42]:
Anyway. My oldest sister's six years older, so she's 14, 15, whatever. So somehow I ended up in the same space with her outside of the dining room. And she pulled me in close and said, you are helping out in the kitchen. You know, and it was. She was pissed. And I don't blame her for being pissed. And I did help out in the kitchen, and I've helped out in the kitchen ever since.

Walker Bird [00:21:11]:
But that, for her was wounding. And then as we got older, you know, she would call me the heir Apparent, you know, and my grandmother, you know, was trying to set aside CDs for different people, you know, that sort of stuff. But then she kept changing everybody's designation all the time. She'd get angry, then you'd get scratched off at the bank, and somebody else would come in. So, I mean, there was just games like that, Right?

Theresa Hubbard [00:21:45]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:21:47]:
But anyway, coming back to the sibling rivalry thing that existed, and I think there's vestiges of it still.

Theresa Hubbard [00:21:54]:
Sure, sure.

Walker Bird [00:21:56]:
You know, so anyway, just. I think she needed validation and worthiness, you know, value. I'm valued as much as he is and as the others, maybe. You know, I don't know that she felt that way about the other siblings. She pretty much was the alpha of the girls.

Theresa Hubbard [00:22:23]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:22:24]:
The women, and still falls into that role. But I think the being in charge thing is part of. How can I be recognized as having value in this system? And then if you. If she is, like, she makes an invitation and I decide I'm not going or whatever it is, she gets hurt, hurt, hurt. You know, and feels abandoned, all that stuff. And I. What I think is, just as we're talking about it, that goes back to that whole structure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:07]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:23:08]:
So.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:09]:
Yeah. So there's different things that come to mind, I think. Can you imagine going up to each one of your older siblings and gently touching them on the upper arm and saying, I love you so much?

Walker Bird [00:23:43]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:44]:
And what do you think?

Walker Bird [00:23:45]:
Of course.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:46]:
What do you think their reaction would be?

Walker Bird [00:23:51]:
I think I'd get hugs.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:53]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:23:53]:
Yeah, absolutely.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:55]:
Okay.

Walker Bird [00:23:57]:
I think they'd be different, though. Yeah. I tell them I love them all the time.

Theresa Hubbard [00:24:00]:
Yeah. That's not what I said.

Walker Bird [00:24:03]:
I love you so much.

Theresa Hubbard [00:24:07]:
I love you so much. It's different than I love you. Do you feel it different?

Walker Bird [00:24:23]:
Sure. Yeah. I think that my sisters know I love them so much. Pretty sure. You don't think so?

Theresa Hubbard [00:24:43]:
I think we're talking about different levels of love.

Walker Bird [00:24:48]:
Here's another relationship thing they came up on steering us back, but this one is. Is significant. My. The sister that's two years older than me was my grandmother's favorite.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:00]:
Yes.

Walker Bird [00:25:03]:
Absolutely. You know, if there was, like, the golden child, that was her golden child. It's just. It's almost humorous between me and Ashley now.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:22]:
Oh.

Walker Bird [00:25:22]:
You know, because I just like. Well, I just say, well, you were the favorite. She's like, I know, right?

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:30]:
And it's okay.

Walker Bird [00:25:32]:
But when we were children, I remember we were there one summer for a long time, and she was ash. She was having Ashley take piano lessons and you know, and so Ashley, she'd have Ashley playing, and then she wanted us to play chopsticks together and all that stuff. And so when I was playing my part, Ashley would mess my. Mess up my part intentionally. Like reach over there and, you know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:56]:
Yes, yes, I can imagine.

Walker Bird [00:25:58]:
And then so I decided the will turnabout is fair play. And so I start messing up Ashley's and my grandmother is like, got all over me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:07]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:26:11]:
Well, she can mess mine up. And the answer was, yes, she can. So we laugh about that now. But for as far as me and my grandmother, that still hurts me. I mean, in a way. But I mean, I'm not wandering around.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:26]:
Oh.

Walker Bird [00:26:26]:
You know, it's not a. Like a core wound or something that I carry, but it's enough to remember.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:32]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:26:32]:
To share in this and. But the good part about it is that it's okay with me that Ashley was her favorite. Yeah, it really is. Yeah. I mean, then I didn't like it so much, but I'm glad that Ashley was loved that much. She needed it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And maybe, maybe I can see it that way because I was my grandfather's favorite.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:58]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:26:58]:
Because I was right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:03]:
What if you were nobody's favorite?

Walker Bird [00:27:05]:
Well, yeah. And that could be Amy and Liz, two oldest. I probably shouldn't be using people's names, but anyway, sorry, guys. You've been identified. Yeah. Yeah, I think there would be. You would still carry the pain of not being seen and I mean, what's. What's.

Walker Bird [00:27:29]:
There were just so many weird disconnects in my family though. It was like sometimes you. I wouldn't get a birthday gift. Right. And. And then the same year, you know, my second oldest would get like an electric guitar and an amplifier. You know, a really expensive gift or a fancy bike or a really nice desk for her room.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:56]:
Mm.

Walker Bird [00:27:58]:
And I don't know. Yeah, it was some. Some. On some level, I think my dad was trying to make up for his lack of attention and maybe the hurt that was out there over her not being a favorite. But honestly, actually, if I step back about this for a second, now that we're talking about it, I think she was my mother's favorite. It. I'm like, I don't just think it. Okay, so we can take her out of the equation.

Walker Bird [00:28:33]:
Cuz she did have a favorite person. So that leaves my oldest sister. And that makes me really sad because I do love them and I don't want anybody hurting that way from roles or lack of, you know, whatever it was. So if what you're saying, I think, is one of the best things we can do is say it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:02]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:29:02]:
Looking in their eyes and meaning it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:04]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:29:05]:
So much.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:06]:
So much.

Walker Bird [00:29:07]:
Yeah. So what's your advice for siblings trying to, you know, not, you know, because now that we're talking about, it's like it has to be simmering back in there and we're going to come back to your family. Because I see things as the outsider, too.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:29]:
Yeah, right. I was just talking about me. I wasn't talking about my siblings.

Walker Bird [00:29:32]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:35]:
So you were going to ask me what.

Walker Bird [00:29:38]:
Is there anything that we can help people that are, you know, provide to people that are watching, some advice or. Or guidance in how, you know, if you. You had. If there was favoritism by parents. And I think that, you know, the golden child is. There's this phrase that everybody knows because it happens. Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:58]:
And the black sheep.

Walker Bird [00:29:59]:
Yeah, and the black sheep. And sometimes people put that label on themselves for sure, you know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:06]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:30:08]:
So how do we. How do we morph out of those roles? How do we drop the, you know, the weight of the role now? Well, parents, let's say parents are deceased. Maybe it's easier when they're deceased or maybe it's lost opportunity when they're deceased.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:27]:
Yeah, I think it depends for sure.

Walker Bird [00:30:29]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:32]:
Yeah, yeah.

Walker Bird [00:30:34]:
Oh, my goodness. We always get so complicated.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:37]:
We are. We are so complicated. You know, I think we have to want to release the role. Well, I have to. I think we have to even acknowledge that we are playing a role in our family, you know, which we've talked some about. And then do we want to release the role? I think for some people, not being the jokester, not being this, the successful one, or not being the athlete or not being whatever, like, would be terrifying to not play because it's what they've always known. And so will I still have value if I release the role that I've played for decades. And the reality is, unfortunately, is for some parents, they wouldn't like it if their child left the role that their child has played for decades.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:31]:
There are parents that would want their child to still be the athlete, to still be the successful one, to still be. To still be. Whatever. What?

Walker Bird [00:31:41]:
Nothing. Never mind. Sorry. Back to me. It's so human.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:50]:
It is. Are we talking about me again?

Walker Bird [00:31:52]:
Yeah. Well, if you're not, I am. Go ahead.

Theresa Hubbard [00:32:04]:
Oh, no, it's so we have to be aware of it. We have to be curious with ourselves. What is the role I play? Because I am playing one. Do I want to Let it go. Do I want to explore who it is to be me? Am I willing to risk judgment or abandonment by my family to be myself? I think, you know, some people try for sure. Some people are willing for sure. There's so much that comes to mind because I think we also today, one of the things that I see in the therapy room is an expectation that our parents should be perfect. That, and I don't, I don't know exactly the evolution, you know, of that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:01]:
I do think social media has contributed it to it based off the things that I, you know, hear from people, even though I don't consume a lot of it. And I'm not a TikTok person, so I don't see, you know, all that that's out there. But I do hear things and so I think there is an expectation. Well, the information's out there, so you should just do it all perfectly. And if you don't, then you're a bad parent when you don't know what a parent is like until you are one. And you know, regardless of my kids age, which now ranged from 17 to 30, I'm still learning every day what the role of a parent is. It's not because they're, you know, more grown now that that role has ended. It just, I don't think it's ever stopped shifting.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:06]:
Have I mentioned that? I think parenting is one of the hardest things that we'll ever do.

Walker Bird [00:34:11]:
Maybe I think that's why we're doing a series on it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:13]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:34:14]:
And why it's so hard.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:15]:
And why it's so hard. And why it's so hard.

Walker Bird [00:34:18]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:18]:
You know, I look at my parents, I mean, if I think about the competition, you know, piece and were their favorites, I don't remember there being favorites. I'm not saying that they weren't there. I'm just saying I don't, I don't think it was as overt as maybe your family's was. Maybe. And maybe I don't remember, maybe I just didn't allow that memory to stick. But I don't remember that. What I do remember really was that my grandparents, my, both of my grandmothers, I did not experience as very connected. You know, doing their roles, you know, go over, apron on in the kitchen, you know, doing their roles.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:25]:
That's what I remember about them. But not particularly connected. My mom really wasn't either. But I don't know, maybe because I was the fifth, I didn't have an expectation that she would be because she was already really busy by the Time I came around, I don't know my. I do have one brother, so he's second from the youngest. And so I do think there was some of that. And then part of me is like, I think my dad had given up by then on having any other. Any other gendered child other than female by.

Theresa Hubbard [00:36:08]:
By child number seven. So I don't if it was there. I just don't remember it being so overt. But I do know in conversations with my siblings now, you know, that there are some who feel like my dad didn't love them, didn't care for them, did not prefer them, did not engage with them. I don't know that my dad knows what to do with females. I think boys would have been easier for him. And I think for me, I just stepped into that role. You want to paint the house? Sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:36:58]:
You want to do that? Sure, sure, sure. This was something that somebody said to me recently that I found really interesting was that one of my siblings struggled not with me as much as because they were older than me. They should have accomplished more in their life because they were older than me. And I was like, I don't even know what to do with that. Right.

Walker Bird [00:37:42]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:43]:
Because in my mind, I don't think about it in that way at all. But that has to be connected to some level of sibling rivalry. Right. But where it comes from, I don't know. Specifically, I don't know. And so I don't know how our parents can't have had impact. I think they. There's no way they could

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:09]:
not have had impact. Whether they were more covert, as I experienced my parents, to me, doesn't mean my siblings experienced them that way or your family. That maybe was more overt in stating it. You know, the impact is still there. And what are we still looking for? Regardless whether it's overt or covert in actions by our parents, what are we looking for?

Walker Bird [00:38:40]:
To be seen.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:41]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:38:42]:
Valued value chosen enough.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:46]:
Yeah. So if we don't ever feel like we ever get that from our parents, wouldn't the rivalry just keep going?

Walker Bird [00:38:56]:
Sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:57]:
Unless a sibling or several siblings decided to step out. Like, okay, I've. And that's what I feel like I've worked on is just stepping out and not specifically about. In comparison to my siblings. Just how do I step fully into who I am as an adult? Do I trust myself, or do I still need my parents to determine my value? And for me, it was that realization that my parents do not determine my value. I determine my value. I'm still working on it. I will the rest of my life.

Walker Bird [00:39:36]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:37]:
You know, think back to about, oh, I don't know, 35 minutes ago when you were asking me why I was teary today. Yeah, right.

Walker Bird [00:39:45]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:46]:
Sharing, you know, old story insecurity.

Walker Bird [00:39:49]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:49]:
Right, Right. So even though I don't need it from my parents anymore, I'm still working through the story.

Walker Bird [00:39:57]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:59]:
Yeah. What are you thinking about?

Walker Bird [00:40:03]:
Oh, just thinking about. There's. There's also roles that are based on parental observation of your character traits.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:15]:
Yes.

Walker Bird [00:40:15]:
Go, you know, well on your strengths, for example, you know, and I don't know when it started with you, but my observation is, is you're the go to person and that could be wrong. But I think the first time that there's news or if somebody has to be named as a decision maker, you're always at the top of the list. That's my perception. And I don't know if that's true or if it's not. But I. What I perceive, though is that that has an impact on some of your siblings, that your relationship with your parents is, you know, and I'm not. I'm not privy to the intimacy of it. Right.

Walker Bird [00:41:09]:
Because they don't hear the details of conversations. I just hear information from you and observations when we're together.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:14]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:41:19]:
My perception of that interaction in your family is that you are viewed as competent and capable and more like an equal.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:39]:
You know, it's interesting because I think this is where the sibling piece gets messier. Right?

Walker Bird [00:41:47]:
Yes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:49]:
Because sure, I think there are siblings of mine that could. That would believe that or say that that is true. And what I know is I talk to my parents twice a month.

Walker Bird [00:42:07]:
Yeah. It's not daily or even weekly.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:09]:
Yeah. And maybe three times. Maybe. But there are several of my siblings my parents talk to every day.

Walker Bird [00:42:19]:
Really?

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:19]:
Yeah. And there are siblings that my parents ask for guidance. Like, I think my parents go to different siblings depending on what it is that they are, you know, needing or wanting. But I think it can look like that, like that what you said is true. I just don't think it is true, but I think it can be perceived to be true. You know, one of the things that we realized about my mom years ago was that whenever we asked my mom a question individually, she gave a different answer depending on who she was talking to. Right.

Walker Bird [00:43:00]:
So I vaguely remember an incident with that anyway.

Theresa Hubbard [00:43:05]:
And I really didn't think that my mom was doing it on purpose. I just felt like she was adapting to whomever it was that was asking her you know, what do you want for your birthday present? What kind of food do you want? You know, and she wouldn't it really. My mom's sense of self wasn't developed enough that she could decide what she wanted or needed. And I think she's still working on it at 83, but I think she would often answer based off what she thought the other person could or would offer. But I think she's still learning how to have a voice. But I'm not the person she's been talking to about her dentures and the surgeries and the messed up. Like, that hasn't been me at all. Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:43:58]:
Or, you know, my dad's health concerns, you know, when he hurt his shoulder. Like, that's not a role that I play. And so I mean, to me it's. It would be sad if that is the perception that I am the go to person. Because it isn't true.

Walker Bird [00:44:15]:
Yeah, yeah, it is. It maybe all those other pieces.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:20]:
Yeah, sure.

Walker Bird [00:44:22]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:23]:
So can that be true in every family? Absolutely.

Walker Bird [00:44:27]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:28]:
Can parents have favorites? Absolutely.

Walker Bird [00:44:32]:
Your kids have talked about favorites.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:34]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:44:35]:
And I know that. I mean, my experience is that no.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:38]:
Yeah, yeah, I don't have a favorite, but I think it's. It's common and I think it's talked about. And I think that sometimes I guess better what a child needs. Does that make sense? I think sometimes I'm wrong. Like, I just. Oh, missed that one. But it wasn't for a lack of effort or preference. You know, nobody taught me how to be a parent.

Theresa Hubbard [00:45:08]:
I've just been learning along the way, but I don't have a preference. I love all of my kids for their uniqueness. You know, I think I've mentioned this before, but I feel like the biggest compliment I ever received was from a friend that's been around for a while. And she said, you know, I've never met four siblings who are so different. Which to me, I was like, thank you. Because I don't want them to play a role. I want them to be who they are. And that doesn't mean that that's easy.

Theresa Hubbard [00:45:47]:
And it doesn't mean that my children don't think I have a favorite. And they have brought it up, you know, like, who's your favorite? I'm like, I don't have one. They're like, oh, whatever. And I was like, no, really, I don't.

Walker Bird [00:46:00]:
What's funny is that the two that I'm thinking of each think the other one is.

Theresa Hubbard [00:46:08]:
Isn't that funny? And I think as they can But I do think as they continue to age, I think that that has shifted. Like, I don't. Yeah, I don't know that my three oldest feel quite that way anymore. I think that has changed. But I do think my youngest still feels that way. But it isn't. It isn't true. Have I.

Theresa Hubbard [00:46:42]:
Have I understood them less? I think so, sure. I think I had a lot of practice raising boys, which was very intimidating when I had them, because I'm like, what do you do with a boy? I don't have a clue what to do with the boy. And it was an adventure, for sure. And so then, you know, when I had a girl, you know, in my mind, those roles were still very distinct, you know, and that was the way I was raised. And I think that. That they have taught me a lot, you know, And I would say indirectly, not having this conversation with me, because at the age that it started, it wasn't something that cognitively was even capable, but pushing back on any type of gender role, you know, And. And. And I don't mean that in a traditional sense, because all of my kids worked and helped me with projects.

Theresa Hubbard [00:47:47]:
All of them know how to cook. All of them. I didn't. I didn't pick. You know, like when you mentioned earlier about, okay, girls, go help grandma in the kitchen. You stay here with me. Like, I didn't. That was not me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:48:00]:
Right. But. And I wasn't. I was not raised that way. I was always doing things physically with my dad, working very hard. But that doesn't mean that I, you know, saw them clearly. I mean, there absolutely have been times where I haven't seen any of my kids clearly. Does that contribute to some rivalry? Of course.

Theresa Hubbard [00:48:26]:
Some not feeling enough. Of course. Again, overtly or covertly, how do we. What can we do around sibling rivalry as we get older?

Walker Bird [00:48:43]:
Love each other truly. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:48:46]:
Deeply, authentically.

Walker Bird [00:48:48]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:48:48]:
Yeah. I don't want you to play a role around me.

Walker Bird [00:48:52]:
I think having frank conversations, I mean, the fact that Ashley and I can acknowledge, you know, and that I can find joy, that she was loved like, that I was loved, too. But I would have been second. I mean, if I was zero, it might not be so easy.

Theresa Hubbard [00:49:11]:
Right, right.

Walker Bird [00:49:13]:
So it's easy to say when I was number one to one and number two to the next.

Theresa Hubbard [00:49:18]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:49:19]:
You know, but I still think having. Trying to have conversation where you talk about this, your experience, is the way to start that healing, man, it could be ugly. You know, I then your notes that I was looking on this topic, you know, you Talk about therapy, reenactment of playground, you know, playground arguments between siblings or whatever. And the reenacting is just heartbreaking. But it's also, I mean, you can tell us the therapeutic benefits of that, but, you know, how do we engage in that sort of conversation in a way that people, if the hurt is still so deep, because it can be, how do you engage? What's a good way to do that?

Theresa Hubbard [00:50:16]:
Well, you know, I have talked a little bit about this before, but, you know, one of the things that I encouraged, you know, my siblings to do, I think it was six years ago, seven years ago, seven years ago, was we all got together and had a conversation where each one of us told our version of our life story without interruption or feedback or challenge. And, and really for me, it was about this opportunity to grow compassion with each other, to see each other, you know, more clearly. Recognizing that even if we grew up in the same house, it doesn't mean we had the same experience or that we even have a clue what's gone on in our siblings lives. So for me, if, if I was, if I was working with a family, siblings who were trying to repair their relationship, I would start there. I would learn as much as I could about their family system. If their parents were still alive, I would absolutely want to have at least an hour with each of them.

Walker Bird [00:51:44]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:45]:
Because that would inform me a lot. I've talked about this, I think before, but one of the things that I do when I'm working with the family system is I don't say, tell me about your mom, tell me about your dad. I don't want the story that we've created over our lifetime. That's not helpful for me. So I will ask to each person, you know, what's three things? What are three words? Describe your mom. What is something that you just love about her? What is something about her that drives you crazy or is annoying? And if you could change one thing about her, what would it be? And so doing that with each sibling, around each parent, and then around each sibling gives me a very full picture of how that person sees themselves in the, in the system beyond what their story is that they've been telling about their role in the system. Because sometimes people can feel like they're, you know, the black sheep of the family when really in the family, the family doesn't consider them, that they could even be the golden child. And so our.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:12]:
There can be a lot of incongruence. Right. In family system stories.

Walker Bird [00:53:16]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:16]:
And so, so I'm really trying to, like, hold the whole picture of what's going on for each person that's in the system and then helping them see each other more clearly, you know, if they're willing. But every person, you know, in order for there to be repair, people have to be willing.

Walker Bird [00:53:36]:
Yeah. And there can be so much hurt that they're not.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:39]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:53:42]:
So much hurt and so little self work, you know, or self awareness that they just won't.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:52]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:53:54]:
Hard.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:55]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:53:57]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:59]:
So what was.

Walker Bird [00:53:59]:
I just want to hug my sisters. I do. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:06]:
Yeah. And I think that that little girls. We're all little, aren't we? Our little bitty selves looking for the experience of being seen, heard, valued, loved, appreciated. Yeah. Yeah. Which we cannot get from just our parents, which I think is an expectation, too, that all of that should come from our parents. Right. As opposed to a community.

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:36]:
And I think that does. That is impacted by the way we live today. For sure.

Walker Bird [00:54:44]:
Oh, sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:44]:
Yeah. Our parents cannot isolated. Yeah. They cannot provide for all our needs. They may think that they can, but we will be lacking in getting needs met. Yeah. One of the things. I think I talked about this a little bit when Kath Ann was on, when we were discussing the needs apart from the nonviolent communication course that I took.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:08]:
And one of the things that I recognized in doing the course was that I have done a lot of work understanding what my needs are and then figuring out how to get them met, but by many different people, I no longer have an expectation that you, Walker, will meet all my needs.

Walker Bird [00:55:29]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:30]:
Or that my kids will meet all my needs.

Walker Bird [00:55:33]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:36]:
And so I think that's an important part to us having a more realistic expectation as children what our sibling, what our parents can and cannot offer us when they're trying. I'm not saying all parents are trying to be present or trying to be engaged, because that is not true. But the ones that are trying.

Walker Bird [00:56:01]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:02]:
Yeah. Yeah, we are. We have a lot of different needs.

Walker Bird [00:56:08]:
Let me ask you this. Do you think. I mean. Because what's coming to mind is that, you know, the most important is us doing work so we can give it to ourselves. Do you think that that's the really, ultimately the sole source of or should be the sole source of meeting our needs?

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:31]:
I don't think so.

Walker Bird [00:56:32]:
Okay.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:32]:
That's not my opinion. Maybe I'll change my mind, but I don't know. I've done a lot of work learning to trust myself, to take care of myself, to create structure and discipline. It's not enough for me. It's not enough for me to feel like I am seen, heard, valued. I think we're relational beings. We're designed to be relational. I mean, I'll say to clients, like, everything about us is designed to be irrelational.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:05]:
And so. And if we want to step into the physiology of it, you know, just how much we need feedback from others to be okay, yeah, we need mirrors. We need feedback. Healthy, preferred. Even though, you know, we still learn, we can learn from feedback that is not so healthy. I think trusting ourself is the goal, but I don't think it takes care of us needing others to be in relationship with and sure to meet other needs. I mean, connection is a need. I can't.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:49]:
I can't do that. It's not, you know, I can't. I can try to fake it. I think people try to.

Walker Bird [00:57:56]:
Sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:57]:
But does it create wholeness? Does it create joy? Or does it. Is it convenient? And.

Walker Bird [00:58:06]:
Yeah, I just. To me, the one I'm trying to put that into framework is that the self trust piece is so critical so that our definition of self is not dependent on the need for relation, you know, the relationships that we have. Right. In other words, that is part of our wholeness. Being in relationship and having needs, and there's people that fill those needs, but also being able to come back to that core when there's incongruence.

Theresa Hubbard [00:58:36]:
Oh, sure.

Walker Bird [00:58:37]:
You know, incongruency. So that we're not defined by the other.

Theresa Hubbard [00:58:41]:
Right, right, right.

Walker Bird [00:58:42]:
So I.

Theresa Hubbard [00:58:43]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:58:44]:
I feel like I'm. I'm coming up with the. The answer, which is, you know, it's the integrated whole has us at the center, but we also need, you know, these relationships.

Theresa Hubbard [00:58:58]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:58:59]:
Not the. A specific. Right. But we need relationship.

Theresa Hubbard [00:59:04]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It would be interesting to look at that needs list from that course to see how many of those can we accomplish on our own.

Walker Bird [00:59:20]:
Another episode.

Theresa Hubbard [00:59:23]:
Yeah. But I do think, you know, ultimately learning to trust ourself is, I think, the biggest goal that we can have. I think it's lifelong.

Walker Bird [00:59:37]:
Yeah. Trust and love.

Theresa Hubbard [00:59:38]:
Yeah. Learning to be in healthy relationship. Yeah. I had somebody tell me today that they just started the course, the relationship course, the, you know, the 10 skills, and they got stuck at the very first question, and they realized that neither one of them had ever, in the time that they'd been together, fully experienced, the other person fully present with the them. Yeah. And they were like, holy.

Walker Bird [01:00:13]:
Like, yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [01:00:15]:
Right. You know, relationship is complex, and we can. We can imagine all kinds of things, you know, about ourself and us in relationship with others. But are we actually even asking ourselves questions about how we really are with ourself? Because in the course it's not just about the other. Right. It's, you know, it's. It is about us too. Sure.

Theresa Hubbard [01:00:39]:
Right. Are we doing any level of self inquiry. Yeah. Trusting ourself first. But I don't think we can meet all of our own needs. I don't, I don't. But if someone wants to have the conversation, telling me that they don't need anybody else and they want to sit down and have it, then you can let us know because I would love to explore that with that person.

Walker Bird [01:01:08]:
I think we can go through periods of time where we feel that way. And I was saying, you know, I was asking rhetorically, but the. There was a time when I was six where I told myself I didn't need other people. It's, you know, we were moving to a bad neighborhood and leaving what friends I had, just all that stuff. And yeah, there was like the song at school because we sang every day at the school was like this avant garde, you know, 70s experiment with open classrooms and things. So we, the whole school would gather in like the library which was in the center of this round school building, and we would sing every morning. It was a great. She was a great music teacher and just passionate, all that stuff.

Walker Bird [01:01:59]:
But in any event, People Need People was one of the songs. And I was like, yeah, that's, you know. But it was my six year old way of dealing with the.

Theresa Hubbard [01:02:11]:
Right.

Walker Bird [01:02:13]:
With the circumstances and. But what I realized, you know, as the loneliness grew.

Theresa Hubbard [01:02:19]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [01:02:19]:
Was that I did.

Theresa Hubbard [01:02:20]:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Walker Bird [01:02:26]:
So there. But there was a certainty to it and then there was a certainty the other way, which is. This is very lonely.

Theresa Hubbard [01:02:35]:
Yeah. So anyway, part of you that was just trying to protect yourself. I don't need anybody.

Walker Bird [01:02:41]:
Nope. That's right.

Theresa Hubbard [01:02:44]:
This is too hard. People are too messy.

Walker Bird [01:02:47]:
I am still happy being alone for lengthy periods of time. But. But I do need people.

Theresa Hubbard [01:02:55]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [01:02:57]:
We're just straying from the original.

Theresa Hubbard [01:03:00]:
That's okay. That's okay. You know, family systems and relationship and, you know, our needs, you know, they're all interconnected.

Walker Bird [01:03:11]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [01:03:12]:
Our relationships with our parents, our siblings, our extended family even. I just don't know that we know each other very well, even though we think we do.

Walker Bird [01:03:24]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [01:03:27]:
And I'm start. It is time to start.

Walker Bird [01:03:30]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [01:03:32]:
Yeah. Being curious, asking questions, holding space. You know, what is most important to you? What is most important to you now at this point in your Life. Do you know?

Walker Bird [01:03:58]:
Oh, I don't have to choose to try to answer that question, to be honest. Yeah. What's most important to you?

Theresa Hubbard [01:04:10]:
Healthy relationship.

Walker Bird [01:04:12]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [01:04:13]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Once I realized that I didn't know how to be in healthy relationship, but part of me wanted it so desperately that that became my number one goal, healthy relationship. I will never stop experimenting. I will never stop practicing how to be in healthy relationship ever.

Walker Bird [01:04:45]:
Well, that's a good thing for me.

Theresa Hubbard [01:04:47]:
Yeah. Well, and for me. For you coming on board.

Walker Bird [01:04:54]:
Yeah. I mean, I've got. What came to mind was just physical health right now.

Theresa Hubbard [01:05:01]:
Yeah. That's okay.

Walker Bird [01:05:02]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [01:05:03]:
It takes a lot of energy and focus.

Walker Bird [01:05:05]:
Yeah. So anyway.

Theresa Hubbard [01:05:08]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [01:05:09]:
Well, I work on relationship every day.

Theresa Hubbard [01:05:11]:
Yes, you do.

Walker Bird [01:05:12]:
I do.

Theresa Hubbard [01:05:13]:
I know you do. You do. Yeah.

Walker Bird [01:05:16]:
I mean, I try to find ways to say I love you every day.

Theresa Hubbard [01:05:21]:
Yeah. So I think being more intentional about it, you know, if we go back to, you know, when I asked you, could you say that to your siblings? You know, could you say it? Could you say it and not be at all uncomfortable?

Walker Bird [01:05:56]:
It's like you're doubting me. I think I can. I don't know. Maybe that the answer speaks for itself, but now you're making it weird. Kind of creepy.

Theresa Hubbard [01:06:12]:
Yeah. And I don't mean just you, babe. I'm. I mean, like, did people, like, when you are with your siblings, how intentional are you about being in a relationship with them or are you just hanging out together? And again, I'm not just talking about you, Walker, and your siblings. I'm talking about, like, you, everybody. Right. When we are with our family, are we intentionally in relationship with them or are we just in the same space because we go to this place once a month or the holidays or. Oh, you know, do we help each other feel seen, heard, valued? Are we curious with each other? I think you're great at being curious.

Theresa Hubbard [01:07:04]:
When I see you engage with people. Yeah. I really do.

Walker Bird [01:07:15]:
I got skills. I want people to feel loved.

Theresa Hubbard [01:07:20]:
I know.

Walker Bird [01:07:22]:
And I'm not always kind, but I want to be.

Theresa Hubbard [01:07:28]:
I know.

Walker Bird [01:07:29]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for saying that.

Theresa Hubbard [01:07:36]:
Yeah. Thanks for having the conversation. The more we can do to just keep being more intentional in our relationships instead of just assuming they'll always be there and be the way they have been, too. Right. Like, relationship can change if we want to put the effort in. It doesn't mean the other person will reciprocate, but it will change the dynamic. Right. If we step in and decide to be more intentional in our relationships.

Theresa Hubbard [01:08:06]:
Yeah. So I love you.

Walker Bird [01:08:10]:
I love you too.

Theresa Hubbard [01:08:13]:
Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth and we strive to be more compassionate every day.