The Power of Needs Awareness and Empathy

Walker Bird [00:00:04]:
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life. Each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:32]:
Hello, hello, hello.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:00:36]:
Hello.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:37]:
Good morning, Cathan.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:00:39]:
Good morning.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:39]:
Yeah, thanks for joining us today.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:00:42]:
You're welcome.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:43]:
And for driving all the way up here.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:00:45]:
Yeah, it's a lovely drive. It's a lovely morning.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:49]:
So it is.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:00:50]:
Happy for the sunshine and the trees starting to turn.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:55]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:00:56]:
A little bit of color here and there.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:59]:
Yeah, Yeah, I agree.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:01]:
I love.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:01]:
Well, I love all the seasons, but.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:03]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:05]:
Yes. I'm definitely a fall winter person. You know, the cooler temperatures and snuggly.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:01:12]:
Yeah. Is it a sense of coziness?

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:14]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fires and. Yes. Being outside more. Yeah, I'm not a heat person. I mean, I don't think our summers are that bad here, but I definitely prefer 70 and below. All the way below.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:01:30]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:30]:
All the way. Like what I said earlier in my life was you can only take all your clothes off.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:01:37]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:38]:
You can always put more on, but you can only take them all off. And you could still be really hot naked, so.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:01:47]:
Well, I think you're hot naked.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:51]:
That was way too easy.

Walker Bird [00:01:53]:
You can't.

Walker Bird [00:01:53]:
You just said soft pasta, low hanging fruit there. Sorry.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:01]:
He couldn't help himself. Oh, well, again, thank you for coming. Yeah. So when you. When I asked you about, you know, coming and having a conversation with us and learning our topic, you know, my inner knowing, what do you remember what your reaction was to thinking about doing that?

Cathan Kabrelian [00:02:28]:
I think inner knowing as a phrase really resonates with me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:36]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:02:36]:
Because it's what I do, it's what I practice. It's what I have come to love about being alive.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:44]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:02:46]:
And so when I, you know, heard the phrase or even saw the words, I thought, oh, yeah, I like these people. You know, there is some shared reality just in the phrase. I think that's what it was.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:01]:
Yeah. So for you, when you think about my inner knowing, what does it mean for you at this point in your life?

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:09]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:10]:
Because it's such a journey.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:03:12]:
Boy, has it been a journey. And now it is very different because I had curiosity for a long time and exploring different things for a long time.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:26]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:03:27]:
And now it is such a deeper sense of inner knowing. I think out of all the skill sets I've practiced and gained and continue to Practice. I do lean most heavily on the needs awareness.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:46]:
Okay.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:03:46]:
It has proven to me to be that deepest part of knowing of myself.

Walker Bird [00:03:53]:
Tell us more.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:53]:
Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Yeah, go ahead, please.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:03:59]:
You know, I love it when someone contributes to my sense of being seen and known. And the deeper I go into needs awareness work, the more I realize I can do that for me, probably better than anyone. And it's knowing all of me. It's that vertical integration, you know, of being aware of my thoughts, my judgments, feeling the feelings, accepting them, befriending them, asking where they're pointing. And the thoughts and the feelings and my body sensations, what's going on in my body, Those are all pointing to my needs.

Theresa Hubbard [00:04:41]:
Yeah, yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:04:43]:
What I care about, what matters to me, what I'm longing for, what I'd love to have more of in my life. And that knowing.

Theresa Hubbard [00:04:52]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:04:53]:
Is different than other kinds of knowing that I have pursued or practiced. And actually now it's the convergence of all of that. I would say, though, that for me, inner knowing is about knowing all of those parts of myself, being present with my thoughts, my feelings, my body sensations, and translating all of that to my needs.

Theresa Hubbard [00:05:23]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:05:25]:
That's. That's a deep sense of knowing.

Theresa Hubbard [00:05:27]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:05:28]:
And. And going from, I'll say obvious needs, you know, like if I'm super hot, even if I'm naked.

Theresa Hubbard [00:05:36]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:05:37]:
I'm super hot. I'm uncomfortable. Uncomfortable. And to be able in the moment to translate that to how I would love some comfort right now, like knowing what it is I need in that moment, I would love some comfort. And then that might be kind of obvious because I'm uncomfortable. There might be something underneath that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:02]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:06:03]:
You know. Oh, okay. So if I had comfort right now, then what would I have? And then. So that's. It's always going to whatever deepest need I can find.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:15]:
Okay. Okay.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:06:17]:
And that is a journey that is deeply knowing of myself.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:22]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:06:23]:
That inner knowing.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:24]:
Yeah, yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:06:25]:
All those layers of needs underneath there.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:28]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:30]:
That is a really.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:06:31]:
It's. It's a gift.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:33]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:33]:
It is.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:06:34]:
That I give myself.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:35]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:06:36]:
And it's what I can contribute to.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:38]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:06:38]:
Other people.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:39]:
Yeah. Would you. Could you walk us through, like, what your process might be around going down all those layers?

Cathan Kabrelian [00:06:54]:
Yes. And I can do it with light examples, medium examples, and super heavy, hard things. So I'm just connecting in this moment to what would be most useful.

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:08]:
Sure, absolutely.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:07:10]:
It doesn't do much good if I'm, you know, crying.

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:14]:
And that's okay. Too.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:07:16]:
Yes. Thank you. I appreciate that. It's okay. It's just not very effective for talking. So let me think of an example. Well, I have a. I have an example that is this week.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:07:33]:
And it's been one of those weeks where a friend of mine said it this way. Well, would you like your luck to change for, you know, for this week, there's been several things that I would say haven't worked for me. That's how I put it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:46]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:07:47]:
And so I'll just take one of those. I. I got a call from my accountant who said, ah, I'm realizing something's different than we thought. And I think it's going to look like this. And it wasn't a way that I wanted it to look like at all.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:03]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:08:04]:
And it was a shock and I was worried lots of things were coming up for me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:10]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:08:10]:
Okay. This is more of a low to medium example. And in the moment that I was listening, what I was noticing was I had a lot of judgments about law and rules. And the word fairness kept coming up in my mind. And I know that's a judgment, or for me, I experienced the word fairness as a judgment. So I thought, okay, okay, so what are all my judgments? And I really want to allow the judgments because I spent decades thinking judging was wrong and that I was bad if I was judging someone or something. And now I have judgment parties. I just.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:09:00]:
I love it. I bring it in because it's taking me somewhere. So I thought of all my judgments about systemic stupidity and, you know, I just let it come. And boy, had a lot of judgments about the IRS and government and taxes, and that's so dumb. And so once I kind of wear out the judgment party, I said, all right, what are those judgments about? You know, what are they about? I would love a sense of care. I would love a sense of consideration.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:38]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:09:39]:
And not just for me in this moment, but all the people, because we all have different situations. We all have something slightly different that might make that rule just not make sense for me or them, you know? And so then there was this sense of, ah, I love a sense of consideration for humans. And then immediately the thought is, oh, for all beings, you know, and for the planet, like, I want a sense of consideration. I love that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:14]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:10:15]:
And so then I embody that. What does it feel like in my body when I have a sense of consideration? And it's immediately, oh, yeah, the shoulders open up, the collarbones spread apart and I get a little taller. Oh, I love a sense of consideration. It contributes to my sense of care, connection, closeness. So many other needs are met if I have a deep sense of consideration.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:49]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:10:50]:
So I get connected to that. I embody that need, and that helps me let go of all those judgments. The judgments did their job. They help me connect to what really matters to me about this.

Theresa Hubbard [00:11:05]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:11:06]:
And I can let go of those judgments and then mourn. Then I can go to mourning. I don't go to mourning very effectively from a judgment mode. That's more about the feelings around that. Anger, irritation, exasperation, you know, frustration. And I let all those in when I'm doing the judgment party. But once I get connected to the need underneath all of that, I don't need the story anymore. The judgments don't serve me anymore.

Theresa Hubbard [00:11:37]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:11:38]:
And now I'm. Now I'm sad. I'm sad for myself and for anyone else for whom some law doesn't really make much sense. And there's no more blame on the irs. I know IRS agents, they're humans. They're wonderful. They're humans like any other human.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:11:59]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:11:59]:
I know lawyers. They're wonderful. They're human. They're like any other human.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:03]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:12:03]:
It's no one's fault. There's no blame in it. And yet I'm sad and a little despondent maybe.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:14]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:12:15]:
You know, wishing. They're still wishing it were different. That I still, like, oh, yeah, I'm still wishing it were different. And then I can go there. What's that about? What's it about when I wish something were different? Yeah. I think that's about, in this case, mutuality. Like, can there be more of a sense of partnership and mutuality in working these things out? You know, and thoughts come in like, well, that's impossible. That's why the system is there, because there's no way you can handle, you know, however many million people are in this country and figuring out their taxes.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:12:56]:
So I get that. And I still would love, if there were a way, if there were a strategy to meet more needs in that process.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:09]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:13:10]:
To meet more needs for connection and care and consideration. Partnership, mutuality, inclusion, you know, being seen.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:21]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:13:22]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:13:23]:
So it just helps me realize that that would be cool. I would like that. And I would like there to be a way to meet more needs in the process of gathering funds to run our country.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:40]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:13:42]:
And there's so much less tension in that statement then. This is so stupid. There's a lot of tension in that statement. And my body constricts and, you know, wants to fold in half.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:58]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:13:58]:
And it's painful, but it's painful because of my own thinking.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:14:03]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:14:05]:
And when I can shift out of a judgment mode, translate those judgments, shift into a need mode and embody that need, that is very different.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:17]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:14:18]:
My body is very different. And I have a lot more self connection, self acceptance. Acceptance of. This is how it is right now. This is how it is.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:33]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:14:33]:
And that's the process. That's what I do. You know, I translate my judgments to what matters most to me in this situation. I feel the feelings, which I didn't take so much time to do here, but I will feel that anger or that frustration or whatever that is and say, okay, what's it pointing to? What matters to me about this? That's where I get. That's the, that's the sort of ocean. That's where the water is headed.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:06]:
Yeah, yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:07]:
For you, Cathan. And in a situation like that, and I'm not saying this is that situation, but one where we're experiencing that level of feeling of unfairness and non consideration and non mutuality, how do you, once you work through that process.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:37]:
How do.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:37]:
You get clear or discern whether there's something that you need to do than to respond with, I don't know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:52]:
I.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:53]:
Don'T agree with that. Or have you taken this into consideration? Like how do you get to that place and what are you, what's your process around that? I mean, I call it discernment, but it can be a lot of different terms.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:16:09]:
I agree. I like discernment assessment, a decision, because once I go through the process, accept my thoughts, feel the feelings, embody the needs, notice what's going on in the body once I do that, now I'm actually more naturally curious about what's next or if it involves another person instead of an organization, you know, it might be, I wonder what's going on for them. So the curiosity comes after the self connection. Okay, I'm not super curious about what's going on for you when I don't even know what's going on for me. I tried that for decades and it wasn't very effective. And so once I get deeply connected to what matters to me, then I get curious about the next step. And how I translate that for myself is, okay, once I'm connected to my needs, then I get motivated to meet them. Because strategies, I don't know, they can fall flat if they're not based on needs.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:17:21]:
And so I want my strategies, my actions, to be based on needs. And that's going to come from connecting to them first. So then it's that next step of, okay, I know what I would love. You know, I know what I'm really longing for in this situation. So I get motivated. Okay.

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:41]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:17:42]:
I want to go get that need met. And often it might not be with the person with whom there's some kind of conflict or something to navigate. And that's part of my openness to. There are many strategies to meet my needs.

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:57]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:17:58]:
In this particular case, what happened is that I noticed, okay, I do have a sense of acceptance now that there is this rule, and I have more clarity, which I really needed also. I have more clarity, and I'm more connected to what I would love to see in a situation like this. Just more partnership. Yeah. And so I thought, okay, part of it is I'm. I'm resting all of this on the shoulders of the accountant, who's also doing thousands of other people's things. And I don't have very much knowledge, you know, I don't have very much clarity myself about this.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:48]:
Sure.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:18:49]:
And so I thought I might experience this differently if I understood more. And so here I go.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:57]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:18:58]:
You know, and I started looking up. There's AI and asking just all kinds of questions and. And getting more information. And I noticed some things in all of that. And then I had more curiosity about that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:11]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:19:12]:
And so then I could call the accountant and say, you know, I'm curious about these things. Does that matter? Does that make a difference?

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:19]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:19:19]:
And each time I'm contacting this person, just really wanting them to know. I trust that this is what you do and this is your expertise. And my explorations are so I can have more clarity and understanding. Because if I have more clarity and understanding, I will have more peace of mind.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:39]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:19:40]:
And more acceptance.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:41]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:19:42]:
And so to be able to express that, that I wasn't. It wasn't that I mistrusted, you know, her, it's. It's that I'm wanting. I'm recognizing a need that I have for more clarity. And so, you know, shuffle around, try to figure out something, and we're still in the midst of it. So I sent an email with what I had found and my curiosities about these statements and does that change anything? And if it doesn't, that's fine.

Theresa Hubbard [00:20:10]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:20:10]:
Because I. I have some acceptance here. It's a curiosity. And so I was moved to do that in other situations. Theresa, to answer your question, sometimes that deeper self exploration is really all I needed. And I don't end up saying anything at all. It doesn't turn into a conversation. It's a recognition that this was about me and my experience, which it always is.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:20:39]:
It's. And sometimes I do want to have a conversation.

Theresa Hubbard [00:20:47]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:20:48]:
Especially if it's someone I really care about. And I want an ongoing connection, a long term connection.

Theresa Hubbard [00:20:55]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:20:55]:
With one of my children or my mother. You know, this is a relationship I care deeply about and want deeper understanding and harmony. And so maybe I want to have a conversation, but I get to make that decision after I'm deeply self connected and it becomes more clear because often before the deep self connection, especially when I'm in judgment mode, boy, do I want to have that conversation.

Theresa Hubbard [00:21:22]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:21:22]:
You know, energy is so different when you say perspective exactly. It's like, ooh, I want to talk about this, you know, and boy, after I get self connected, there's no more of that energy. Then it's. Then it's a choice.

Theresa Hubbard [00:21:39]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:21:40]:
Then it's an intention. Is there something I think would be helpful in our connection to talk about? And then I will prepare for that. And if I don't think that, then I'll just keep it right here. All that learning and growth, it's right here with me. And so that's a choice depending on the situation.

Walker Bird [00:22:04]:
It's interesting. It feels like that exploration process, the whole process you just described is even if you can't get the consideration from the other party, that is, you're considering yourself.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:22:18]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:22:19]:
So you got it from yourself ultimately.

Theresa Hubbard [00:22:21]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:22:24]:
Yeah. Where did you learn that?

Cathan Kabrelian [00:22:26]:
Yeah. And I will say I will go there. Where did I learn this? I will also say that, you know what, you just shared that I did it myself. That's probably one of the biggest shifts I've had around needs is ah. When I take 100% responsibility for my feelings and needs. I have such freedom when it comes with my connection to other people. Because I don't hold you responsible for, for anything. Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:23:02]:
That has to do with me right now. I do love it when you contribute. I love that I might even ask for it depending on the relationship. Ask if you'd be willing to contribute, but I don't hold you responsible. And that's the freedom I get. And hopefully the freedom you get from me taking responsibility and knowing that I can meet all of these needs for me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:28]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:23:29]:
Maybe not at 100% because some of these connection needs, you know, they get higher when other people are involved.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:35]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:23:36]:
But that doesn't mean that I can't meet it at least a little bit. And with every level of metness. It's met.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:44]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:23:44]:
You know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:45]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:23:46]:
So, yeah, that. That's big, that being able to do it myself. Yeah. To consider my own needs. That's a huge sense of consideration. And to do that exploration more deeply, that's a huge sense of being seen and known. So I can do that. Where did I learn this? It's a long and slow journey.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:24:16]:
I think it did start with the NVC, the nonviolent communication. All those 20 years ago or so, I was in a book club and someone said, hey, have you heard about that book by Marshall Rosenberg? You know, nonviolent Communication, A Language of Life? And I said, nope, and let's read it. Okay, we read it. And I was. I was actually. I was inspired and stumped. So very mixed. Yeah, very mixed when I read it.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:24:50]:
Deeply inspired. And I thought, oh, that's a very different way to look at my life experience.

Theresa Hubbard [00:24:59]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:25:01]:
And I don't get it. I guess I could see it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:05]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:25:06]:
And I didn't understand it. I didn't understand how to do it. And so I felt very mixed about it. But I immediately started trying out this idea in my life. So it started. There wasn't an easy journey, though, because I. All my skill sets were very separate. I had a mindfulness practice, but it was a mindfulness practice.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:25:34]:
And I had sort of a somatic practice, Whether at the time it was yoga or ballet or martial arts, whatever it was, but. But it was separate. And then I had this new sort of. Well, and then with all the teaching in my background, there was a lot around acceptance of where people are, because that's how I want to be with youth that I'm teaching, you know, or adults that I'm teaching. I want to meet you where you are.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:05]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:26:06]:
That's always been a really important part of my being. You know, I want to meet you where you are and have no expectations of where I think you should be.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:16]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:26:18]:
But all of those pieces were very separate for me. And so when I took on NVC or wanted to study more about this needs awareness paradigm, like feelings and needs. Duh. We all have feelings and needs. And it was so different than that. It was so different than just saying we have feelings and needs. There was nothing about the embodiment of that or the practice of it or the experience of it. And so I had all these separate pieces of my learning in my life.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:26:53]:
And it took a long time, Walker, to bring those parts together. I don't know why, don't know why. It took so Long. It's because in the middle of that journey, it got really hard and.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:27:09]:
I.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:27:09]:
Was overwhelmed with the challenge. And whenever I saw the need for challenge on the list, I kind of know the list. I can point. I would just. I would be mad. I don't need more of that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:27]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:27:27]:
That is fully met. That is overly met, and I don't want that one, you know, So I.

Walker Bird [00:27:37]:
Feel you.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:27:39]:
You know, I don't want more of that. And so then, you know, I would go through a little process of what is that? I want some ease for once. Can it just be easy today? And for a long time, it just wasn't day after day after day.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:57]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:27:58]:
It was hard.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:59]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:28:00]:
And I was overwhelmed. And I couldn't see that I could find the convergence of all of these things. I believed in and practiced and wanted to learn more about that. That was the place, that was the space where I could find more peace.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:19]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:28:20]:
So it took a long time. And as I said, when I was finally introduced to the Compassion course and this idea of daily weekly practice, putting these concepts into practice.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:34]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:28:35]:
Finding a situation this week where you can apply this concept, then it wasn't just the needs awareness material that was being integrated. It was everything. Because then I could see, oh, when you practice something, when I integrate these things into my daily life, that's when I can have a sense of inner knowing.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:03]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:29:03]:
That's when I can have a sense of really being present with who I am and who I'm trying to be and how I see the world and how I experience you very different when I bring all of that together.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:20]:
Agreed.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:29:21]:
You know, like all I learned in my journey with mindfulness about presence and awareness. And sometimes I remember hearing myself say, aware of what, you know, present with what, you know, now that I'm present, now what? And I would get a little irritated sometimes. You know, I love you, honesty. No, I was like, yeah. I'm like, okay, great, Now I'm present. I'm still pissed, you know, And I didn't know how to go, you know, from one place to another.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:55]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:29:56]:
And it was the daily practice and integration of these skills that helped me see. Ah, now I see. It is every moment. Yeah, it is. And it is every moment all day long. It's not just when I sit down to practice something.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:16]:
Yes.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:30:16]:
And really, I guess that is similar to, you know, 30 years as a performing musician, decades of practice, you know, and that journey is. It's not just when you're at the instrument and you're drilling a Hard passage. It's embodying the music.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:37]:
Yes.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:30:38]:
All day long.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:39]:
Yes.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:30:40]:
As a human, that's part of me. That music is part of me. Those tunes go through my head all the time, you know, whether I'm waiting in the garden or driving in the car. And that, that was the difference for this work.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:56]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:30:57]:
That I could finally see. Ah, this is part of me. It is part of me all the time.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:03]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:31:05]:
And so it's the integrative practice of these skill sets. And where I learned it, I think the integration part really I learned from the Compassion course.

Walker Bird [00:31:19]:
So you've mentioned it a few times. So tell us about the Compassion course.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:23]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:31:26]:
It started with Tom Bond, who was a student of Marshall Rosenberg. And I think he also had a sense that, yes, Marshall had these great ideas and concepts, like a new way of thinking and a new focus, I guess.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:41]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:31:42]:
On this idea of universal human needs. It's not that, you know, it wasn't new. It's not a new concept really. It's just a different focus.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:31:50]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:31:52]:
And so what Tom did was realize that we need a way to implement these ideas into when someone drops something on your toe. And those little moments when you're so angry in that moment because there's pain.

Theresa Hubbard [00:32:13]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:32:14]:
And how does, how do these big ideas apply to those little moments? Yeah, and big moments.

Theresa Hubbard [00:32:22]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:32:23]:
But how do they apply all day long? How do they apply just having a human experience? And so he offered these practices. These are ways that you can think about this in your, you know, this week.

Theresa Hubbard [00:32:34]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:32:35]:
And so the. He actually wrote the book first. There's a book, the Compassion book by Tom Bond.

Theresa Hubbard [00:32:43]:
Okay.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:32:44]:
And then decided that this could be a course that people could take. And so it's a year long course online with Tom Bond and those of us who work with Tom and share the work. And it is. That sounds overwhelming. There are many year long courses now out there, though.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:03]:
People offer.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:33:04]:
And so, yes, it can seem like a lot. Some people get overwhelmed, put it aside for a while. Often they come back. And this is my sixth year of the course. I have people in my practice groups who have been doing it 10 years.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:22]:
Wow.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:33:23]:
And they come back every year because each time they come to that practice, they are not the same.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:30]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:33:30]:
We are not the same.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:33:31]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:33:32]:
I'm not the same today as last year when I had this week's lesson. And so the lesson applies in every moment of my life.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:41]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:33:42]:
And each time we go through it, I think I've heard many of my participants say, I Learned something new or different about me every time.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:51]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:33:52]:
And it is a journey of self connection, of knowing. It is a journey of inner knowing. Every concept about needs, awareness is about knowing myself more deeply.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:04]:
Yes.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:34:05]:
And when I share the work, you know, I mentor many people. I have three international practice groups with people from all over the world, and we're all there to figure out how we can show up more compassionately in the world.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:20]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:34:21]:
And it starts with how deeply can I know myself? That's where it starts. So this course is meaningful to many people.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:33]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:34:34]:
It's a journey of knowing yourself more deeply. And the people I mentor, I have so much gratitude for being able to witness those shifts. It's moving, inspiring. It's such a sense of contribution for me to just be there with them.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:56]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:34:57]:
As a companion as they discover themselves more deeply.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:01]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:35:02]:
And relationships change, transform, estrangement turns to closeness. And. And of course, there are other ways to get there. This is, you know, this isn't the end all, be all. It sure works for me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:19]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:35:19]:
And it sure works for a lot of people I work with.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:23]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:35:24]:
This particular paradigm, or belief is it's based on everything we do, we do to meet a need.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:33]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:35:34]:
But as a human, I experience that as true now. And that means if someone does something I really don't like, it doesn't work for me at all. That I can still have compassion.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:52]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:35:53]:
Because they're human and they're trying to meet a need. I might be thinking that's not effective. That is not an effective way to meet that need because it impacts the people around.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:36:03]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:36:06]:
And I still believe they are trying to meet a need. They are trying to be human. And it's hard to be human.

Theresa Hubbard [00:36:12]:
Yes, I agree.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:36:13]:
It's complex and it's hard. And so this, that belief that everything we do, we do to meet a need.

Theresa Hubbard [00:36:24]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:36:26]:
That helps me be a more compassionate human being.

Theresa Hubbard [00:36:28]:
Agreed. Agreed. You know, when I took that class, you know, a few months ago, the reality is, Cathan and I didn't understand what I was signing up for. I really, you know, when I heard nonviolent communication, I thought, oh, well, this will be interesting. But I expected it to be more like dealing with terrorists or something, you know, And I don't know, you know, I just thought, I value the things that trait that Tracy recommends. Tracy recommended it. So I thought, I'm going to go. But I don't know that I had enough space to really, like, get into what it was.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:09]:
And then I get there and I was like, Every single person on the planet needs to take this course. Like, this is really, to me so fundamental and so foundational into just being able to be in relationship with any level of success or health at all.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:32]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:33]:
And like you said, I'm sure there's other modalities out there. This is just the first one that I've been exposed to that I felt like was so simple for me to understand. Watching people that were in the class. I remember a woman like the very first day, you know, we're. I don't remember exactly what you were having us do, but I remember her like brain going, oh my gosh. I completely understand myself now. You know, like, I did not understand that all of this struggle that I have is around this need. Like this for me is such a significant need that I did not understand that I have.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:18]:
And this explains so much of my life. And I was like, wow, right? To have that level of clarity. She was wanting it, right. I mean, she's seeking it. She's there wanting more understanding.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:38:33]:
Yes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:34]:
And for it to be presented in such a way that she could hear it without it being seen as selfish or unkind was just really powerful for me to witness as a participant and an observer of other people's process.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:55]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:38:57]:
And when you see that, Theresa, are you moved?

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:00]:
Oh, absolutely. Oh yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:39:03]:
And does it meet a need for inspiration?

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:07]:
Oh, yeah. And yeah. And this is why I do this work.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:11]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:12]:
I mean, often when I'm watching someone have that, I mean, it's such an emotional experience for me because I know from my own personal work the freedom that comes with having that awareness and doing it in such a way, having the awareness in such a way that's not connected to shame. Right. Or I'm bad or I continue to fuck this up, whatever our story is. Right?

Cathan Kabrelian [00:39:40]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:40]:
But it's like, oh, just understanding. Yeah. Very powerful for me to experience myself and to witness and others.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:53]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:53]:
I mean, there are many times when I see it in the therapy room where I am teary.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:58]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:59]:
You know, like just, just so, like one of the modalities that I'm trained in is hypnotherapy and that the type I'm trained in is very experiential process and it can be very difficult. And I did a two year program as part of the training where I was doing my own work as part of the training. And when I'm watching people go through that process, even pushing through the resistance and the story, um, I mean, I'm just crying, right. Not out of sadness. But really just like. Because I know freedom comes with that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:39]:
Yeah, yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:40:40]:
Is it out of the joy?

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:41]:
Yes, it's joy. Absolutely.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:40:43]:
Joy, Self connection.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:44]:
Oh, yes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:44]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:47]:
I mean, I. I just think how far I've come, you know, in doing like that first realization, you know, I was 24, 25, and I went to this retreat at the church that I was attending and had that realization that the. For the first time that I felt like something was wrong with me and it literally wasn't a thought that I had ever had. And then I. Because I was so protected. Right. Like there couldn't be anything wrong with me because I was so protected.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:41:30]:
And then I'm making sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:31]:
I am making sure there's nothing wrong with me. Nothing wrong with me.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:41:36]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:38]:
And then that, you know, that ability to allow in, you know, that perspective without someone saying it to me. Right. I was like, I mean, just the beginning of life changing.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:55]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:55]:
Shifting and inspiring to just never stop that journey.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:04]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:05]:
You know, Walker and I talk about this.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:06]:
We.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:07]:
I still harm people. We all still harm people.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:09]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:09]:
It doesn't. I don't do it intentionally like I used to. Right, right. We're going to. It's inevitable. But I'm not doing it from a place of wanting to cause someone pain.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:42:19]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:19]:
I'm doing it from my own pain.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:22]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:23]:
And recognizing that too. I don't have that motivation to harm anyone. Yeah. But it doesn't mean I don't set boundaries. It doesn't mean that I don't say, hey, that is absolutely not okay what you're doing.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:39]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:42:39]:
Well, and that's meeting a need for self care.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:41]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:42:42]:
And that's one of our needs.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:42:43]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:42:44]:
And yeah. Setting a boundary is a way. And I, you know, I used to not appreciate that word at all because to me it was other people setting boundaries. And I, I guess I probably told myself the thought was, I'm being shut out. Right. And so to me, I think a long time ago, the idea of a boundary was shutting people out. Until again, in the needs awareness work, I'm realizing, oh, no, if I set a boundary, that's. That's protective, you know, use of my strategies.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:43:23]:
It's, it's a way, it's a strategy to care for myself or to care, protect this particular need, whatever the boundary is.

Theresa Hubbard [00:43:30]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:43:31]:
And so I see it as a way of embracing myself instead of as a way of keeping people out.

Theresa Hubbard [00:43:40]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:43:40]:
And that has helped me accept the idea of a boundary more. And I also still work very much to try and understand if someone else is not, if my boundary is not really working for someone else, I also really want to offer care and consideration for why that is. And is there any other way I contribute to.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:07]:
Absolutely.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:08]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:44:09]:
If this one doesn't work for me, there are other ways. Is there any other way I can contribute to your sense of whatever it is, whatever it is being seen or whatever it is? And so it's both.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:21]:
Right?

Cathan Kabrelian [00:44:22]:
It's both caring for my needs and caring for yours. I'm not okay with it being one or the other Right. Anymore.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:32]:
Right, Right anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:44:36]:
Because I spent decades really trying to care for other people's needs and not mine. And then if I ever did, the external message was that selfish or, you know, so I went through that. It's very habitual for many humans. And then I will say early on or still in my journey of meeting other people in the NBC world, I kind of have left that term because nonviolent communication doesn't resonate with many people. And it sort of changed to compassionate communication, which I think is softer maybe or more resonant phrase. And then ultimately it just for me has changed and needs awareness because it really isn't either of those things.

Theresa Hubbard [00:45:29]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:45:30]:
And in those spaces, there are still a lot of NVC spaces. There are many trainers out there who offer courses and there are things to do in that realm. I still meet people in that realm who very much stick to Marshall Rosenberg's original pattern of, of observations, feelings, needs, requests.

Theresa Hubbard [00:45:54]:
Okay.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:45:54]:
And they'll go through that list to navigate difficult things.

Theresa Hubbard [00:46:00]:
Sure, sure.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:46:01]:
And what I see.

Theresa Hubbard [00:46:03]:
Sure is.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:46:06]:
And yeah, there's more.

Theresa Hubbard [00:46:08]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:46:09]:
It's not just that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:46:10]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:46:10]:
It's not just that. I'm going to turn my judgment into an observation. That's great. Right. But stating an observation, telling you how I feel, telling you what I need and making a request, phew, what's that other person supposed to do with that?

Theresa Hubbard [00:46:26]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:46:26]:
And that was part of my struggle in the early days before I sort of expanded the awareness to more just needs awareness, was there's this formula that's supposed to work and it doesn't work for me, it's broken. And then that turns to, I'm broken, I can't do it, why can't I do it? And so over time I realized, oh, it's simply because there's more. Yeah, that's a framework. And there's a lot of filling in that happens in that framework.

Theresa Hubbard [00:46:57]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:46:58]:
Mostly empathy.

Theresa Hubbard [00:46:59]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:46:59]:
So the actual skill of needs based empathy fills in all the spaces in that framework.

Theresa Hubbard [00:47:05]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:47:05]:
And then that's a very different approach.

Theresa Hubbard [00:47:10]:
So, yeah, it's interesting. I mean, there's several things that come to mind. The first thing I think of is earlier in my career, like, I would work with someone and they were like, but I did all the things I did. I checked all the boxes. Right. Like, right, right. Why is this not working right for me? And, you know, and this is just my language, what I. And I'm not saying that I wasn't there myself.

Theresa Hubbard [00:47:48]:
I'm sure that I was right. Because someone's going to have the answer. And if I just follow the guidelines, then all will be well.

Theresa Hubbard [00:47:56]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:47:57]:
So I know that I was there. You were talking, you know, earlier, just in conversation, just about the integration, you know, peace. And for me, there was this huge shift, I don't know, 10, 15 years ago. It's hard for me to remember. But where compassion for me initially, I think was still a lot of judgment in regards to whether or not someone deserved my compassion. You know, was their story or their sharing still something that I decided had value? And then I had this experience at a retreat where something shifted. And so my phrase that's like been my mantra is compassion is the complete acceptance of another's humanness without knowing their story. And that for me was.

Theresa Hubbard [00:49:03]:
Has been like a mantra, like, I want. I want to do all those things. Right. I want to. I mean, because. Because we know that those are helpful. But it, for me, it was also changing, like my energy around it. And there was something that a guest that we just spoke to.

Theresa Hubbard [00:49:24]:
What did she say about the unknown? Oh, you know, and so I use Joseph Campbell a lot, you know, for quoting. And I love that I'm always like, step into the dark cave. Step into the dark cave. Right. And how we really choose the very uncomfortable familiar instead of this un. The uncomfortable, not familiar. But for me, it was like practicing that, practicing the unknown, practicing uncertainty, practicing the gray, so that I could. So that I could do these things with meaning and a different energy than just, well, I did the observation, I did the feeling, I did the right and I put it out there.

Theresa Hubbard [00:50:16]:
Now what are you going to do with that?

Cathan Kabrelian [00:50:18]:
Right, exactly.

Theresa Hubbard [00:50:19]:
And so it's really very much like this is my process. This is again, a structure designed to help get us somewhere, but it's not the destination.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:50:32]:
Right, right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:50:33]:
And this is not outcome based work. Yeah. As much as we might like it to be, it's not. And yeah, I love what you said about the compassion that. That acceptance of someone's Humanness. And it isn't the story that's important. And it's funny when I say that because when I think of the power of myth, you know, and Joseph Campbell, what I think about is how powerful story is. But that doesn't mean it's true.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:05]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:51:06]:
And so a story can be really powerful and it might not be true.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:12]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:51:13]:
Or at least there might be a much more meaningful truth underneath it, which is really how I look at everybody's story.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:22]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:51:24]:
And you know, sometimes I'll get a little bump up against someone. Either a mentoring, you know, client or someone in a practice group will say, but I want you to know my story. I'll say, oh yeah, would you love some shared reality?

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:40]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:51:41]:
Yes. Again, I'm still getting to needs because all my guesses are about what they really need.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:46]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:51:47]:
And when you get to that and I. And they can say, yeah, it really helps me have a sense of being seen. If you hear my story or a sense of shared reality.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:57]:
Yes.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:51:57]:
If we know the same thing.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:59]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:52:00]:
And, and so we can, we can hold that and say, yes, those needs are there too.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:06]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:52:06]:
They want to be met too.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:08]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:52:08]:
And then when we go deeper, then they realize, oh yeah, the story doesn't really matter, does it? Like when they, when they have that insight. Because when they get underneath the story.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:19]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:52:19]:
And figure out what I'm really longing for is some support in this relationship, or what I'm really longing for is more adventure in my life or whatever they get to.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:32]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:52:32]:
When you, you know it. That their whole body says it and resonates. And when they get to that deeper need, they see that it's not the story.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:43]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:52:43]:
That really matters. The story helps us get there, though. I'm not saying story is not important.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:49]:
Oh, absolutely.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:52:50]:
We're humans, we love story. I love story.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:52]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:52:52]:
I love to read fiction. Oh, fiction. Just. Yeah, I just read a book and I didn't want it to end. You know, it's like, so I love story. I love the creativity of story. I love the discovery and story. It meets so many needs for me to read fiction.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:53:11]:
And even when I read fiction now, I'm doing it through that needs based lens of seeing these characters and, you know, imagining what needs they're trying to meet, all those things they're doing. And then knowing me as I read, how do I feel when I read that? How do I feel when they're. When that character says that? It's such a, it's an experience of deeper self connection.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:37]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:53:37]:
If I If I read through that lens. But when I walk through life with that lens, it's a. It's an ongoing self connection process.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:47]:
Yeah, yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:49]:
A lot of opportunity out there. Every day, all day, every day.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:53:56]:
And when I think about when I was in Japan last or two times ago, I can't remember, I chose to do a five day. I was going to do a five day meditation retreat. And so it was at a temple in a small fishing village on the southern island. And I was totally into, you know, long meditation in the morning, work period, make lunch together, eat work period, make dinner, eat dinner and then maybe a teaching. And I'm not Buddhist, but I do have a place in my heart for it because I have family members who have been in R and have certainly studied it. And on the second day, it was very near. In the beginning, one of my things that I wanted to do as my job was go down and gather seawater because we were going to make handmade udon noodles.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:03]:
Oh, okay.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:55:05]:
Mountain flour yam. Mountain yam flour and seawater, something like that. But I was so intrigued by going to do what with what. Okay. So I went down. It was the. It was on a hill and on a mountain obviously. And it was quite, you know, walk down to the ocean and a walk back up and I went myself.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:55:29]:
I don't know, I think I just wanted some time. Yeah, for silence. I love silence. I grew up an only child, so I love silence. And I got down and the stairs that went from the sort of ramparts part of it down to the beach were blocked. They were under construction. So I kind of looked down and thought, ooh, could I jump it? I think I could jump it a long way down. But it was sand.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:55:59]:
I was telling myself, but it's sand. It's not like concrete sand. And so I walked a ways to see if there were more stairs and you know, I didn't see any. And I thought, I can jump in. So I got, you know, up near the wall and looking over and then I got on the wall looking over and I could tell I was nervous. I was like, oh, you're nervous? I'm like, yeah, but I can do it. There was that part of me wasn't quite self connected in that moment. I think had I paused longer I might have said, I think there's a part of me where that trepidation is speaking more loudly and I'm really wanting some safety and security.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:56:45]:
I didn't do that little self connection piece because that thought was pretty strong. Oh, it's not that far.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:51]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:56:53]:
So I jumped. And I know I could even feel it at the last second. My body held back because my body was scared, you know, and even though cognitively I was pushing, pushing through this moment, my body was like, don't do it. And so in that moment of leaping, I was at odds with my body.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:14]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:57:15]:
That didn't go well.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:17]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:57:17]:
So instead of leaping out away from the wall where the sand was, I kind of went straight down because I was sort of an imposing position. And unfortunately, at the bottom of the wall were rocks. So I landed there. And my arm broke in many ways. But it was, you know, it was like this part of my arm was over here now. And it was so obviously very broken.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:44]:
Wow.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:57:44]:
And my hand. So there were a lot of things that weren't working. So in that moment, I thought, okay, deeper self connection needed, you know, it was a real moment of. Of. Yeah. Self judgment. Huge self judgment in that moment. And it wasn't about the jumping.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:58:04]:
It was about the self connection piece.

Theresa Hubbard [00:58:06]:
Right. Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:58:07]:
Why. Why did I not pause and really connect? And. And then so I sat there. I. I was holding. I like picked it up and was holding it like this, you know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:58:21]:
Wow.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:58:22]:
And I just put it to my body and I was holding it here. And I actually sat there a few minutes. I was a little nauseous because it was. Yeah. And I sat there a few minutes and was determined, if nothing else, to self connect.

Theresa Hubbard [00:58:36]:
Wow.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:58:37]:
I. I just thought, I have got to get with myself here.

Theresa Hubbard [00:58:42]:
Right. Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:58:43]:
And so then I was. Then it was a lot of awareness. Yes. The self judgments and the judgments about the stupid stairs and why don't, you know, just. Whoa. So I took in all the judgments. Translating. Translating to needs, safety, security, you know, a lot of things were coming up and self acceptance.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:59:05]:
And that was a hard one. But I really wanted it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:59:07]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:59:08]:
And then I got up and I sort of looked up the mountain and I thought, I don't know if I can do it. I don't know if I can walk up there.

Theresa Hubbard [00:59:19]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:59:19]:
I mean, there's nobody else on the beach or the ramparts. There's no one around. But I thought, I don't see another way. I think I even said, I don't think I have another strategy.

Theresa Hubbard [00:59:31]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:59:31]:
You know, I need help.

Theresa Hubbard [00:59:33]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:59:33]:
I need help.

Theresa Hubbard [00:59:34]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:59:34]:
So I did. I was holding my arm like this. And that was the most mindful walk I have ever had.

Theresa Hubbard [00:59:44]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:59:44]:
And I'd done mindful walking many times in my life.

Theresa Hubbard [00:59:47]:
Right, Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:59:48]:
Even at the temple you know?

Theresa Hubbard [00:59:50]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [00:59:51]:
But every step, every step and noticing. Does leaning this way help the pain? It was starting to throb and it was very painful and I was nauseous and no blood in my head. And I thought if I faint, it's going to be no good. There's no help coming if I lose it anywhere along this path. Theresa Hubbard [01:00:18]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:00:19]:
Step after step after step. Mindful of every step, listening for that foot fall, feeling my arm, feeling the other hand on my arm, trying to protect and just mindful of my thoughts, my feelings, my just all of it. You know, I really wanted the connection. And it took a long time to get up that hill. I had to stop a few times and lean on something. It was a hard journey up that hill.

Theresa Hubbard [01:00:50]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:00:52]:
But I made it. And I'll cut out all the. What happened after that, except to say that it was a Thursday, I think, and none of the doctors work on Thursday anywhere nearby. Oh my gosh. So I find out. And so we had an hour drive to the nearest doctor or hospital. It was a very long day.

Theresa Hubbard [01:01:16]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:01:17]:
And a painful day. And when I found myself in a cast and so incredibly appreciative of how compassionate those doctors and nurses were. Oh, I have not experienced that here. Just incredible hands on my shoulders and you know, just such comfort. And when they were going to pull the arm apart to try to fix it, you know, the nurse put. Yeah, I know the nurse. I mean, I have a little bit of Japanese, they have a little bit of English. We were trying to make it work, you know.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:01:54]:
And the nurse put her hand on my shoulder and she said, can you pain? And my first thought was, what do you think I'm doing? I'm doing pain. And then I realized in that moment, moment she meant, can I do more? And then in that moment I was like, okay, I'll do more, you know. So I shook my, said yes. And so then they did it and it was horrible. But when I got back to where I was staying, I was doing the true retreat. I had a decision to make.

Theresa Hubbard [01:02:29]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:02:30]:
Am I gonna leave and go back to my family where they were and be done with this or am I going to stay?

Theresa Hubbard [01:02:36]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:02:38]:
And I really, again, I was still pretty self connected. And I thought, what needs would I meet by going? What needs would I meet by staying? That's my needs assessment. Whenever I have a decision, you know, each decision there's going to be met needs and unmet needs. I want to look at both for both ways.

Theresa Hubbard [01:02:57]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:02:58]:
And I decided to stay because I thought it's in a cast. I mean, it's as much help as I can have right now. I have.

Theresa Hubbard [01:03:05]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:03:06]:
And wouldn't it be interesting if I can be with myself and this very broken arm? So I finished the retreat the rest of the five days, and it was actually one of those mornings of meditation where I made. I had the realization after something that I can share, that I was ready to share this work with other people and be in community with other people who are doing this work.

Theresa Hubbard [01:03:40]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:03:40]:
Because it had been a really lonely journey for me. I had not been a part of a community in really any of these realms.

Theresa Hubbard [01:03:46]:
Wow. Wow.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:03:47]:
And even though I'd been practicing all these different things, I hadn't been practicing in community.

Theresa Hubbard [01:03:52]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:03:53]:
And I hadn't really been sharing it. I had in my own way, but not overtly.

Theresa Hubbard [01:03:58]:
Right, right.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:04:00]:
And so on the morning after I broke it, you know, 5:00, you're up and meditating on a cushion. And there was such pain. It was throbbing. They're not big on medications there. I'm not either. So it worked for me. I said, you know, I'll be all right. And so I wasn't on pain meds.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:04:20]:
It just hurt. And it seemed so big. The pain was so big. It seemed like it was all of me.

Theresa Hubbard [01:04:26]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:04:27]:
Because it was so big and so throbbing. And I didn't have a sling, so I. At that time. And I made one later. But so I was just holding up my cast like this while I was on the cushion. And it was in that morning. In that morning session of sitting and being present with myself with as much awareness as I could muster, that I realized, wow, you know, pain. I was talking to my pain.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:05:00]:
You're so big. We're so big. It's like all of me right now.

Theresa Hubbard [01:05:08]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:05:08]:
And it was in that moment that I thought, but there's more of me.

Theresa Hubbard [01:05:12]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:05:14]:
And I adjusted. So I was connecting to how much I would love comfort, because I didn't have that. That was a big need. Comfort. And I adjusted my position a little bit, probably to meet a need for comfort. And my big toe on my left foot sort of brushed against it. Must have been thread on the Zabaton or something that kind of caught it. And I became aware of my big toe, and I thought, oh, my big toe doesn't hurt, you know?

Theresa Hubbard [01:05:48]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:05:49]:
And that was all it took. And so I spent the rest of the hour. You know, I don't know what hour we were in at that point, but I spent the rest of the time I Knew I had time.

Theresa Hubbard [01:05:58]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:05:59]:
I spent the rest of the time doing a full and slow body scan.

Theresa Hubbard [01:06:05]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:06:05]:
Of every part of my body.

Theresa Hubbard [01:06:07]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:06:08]:
And so much of it was okay.

Theresa Hubbard [01:06:11]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:06:12]:
So many body parts were perfectly content to be there, you know.

Theresa Hubbard [01:06:18]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:06:19]:
And it was just this. I could feel myself smiling. I could feel. I was like, oh, this is funny. Like, all my toes are okay.

Theresa Hubbard [01:06:27]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:06:28]:
And, you know, and my knees and my shins and my calf muscles, they're so okay.

Theresa Hubbard [01:06:33]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:06:33]:
And I, you know, went through the whole thing.

Theresa Hubbard [01:06:35]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:06:36]:
And. And then when I got to my arm, I just gave it a lot of care and I said, I know. I know this is really hard.

Theresa Hubbard [01:06:43]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:06:44]:
But I'm here.

Theresa Hubbard [01:06:45]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:06:46]:
And I'll do whatever I can to care, you know, for you.

Theresa Hubbard [01:06:51]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:06:52]:
And while I was doing that body scan, the pain was there. I could feel it, but it was so in the background. Wasn't big anymore. It was so in the background and I could still care for it.

Theresa Hubbard [01:07:05]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:07:06]:
You know.

Theresa Hubbard [01:07:07]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:07:07]:
Like a left hand accompaniment to a right hand melody.

Theresa Hubbard [01:07:10]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:07:11]:
You know, that left hand is so tender and quiet, but really important. That's how I felt about my arm. It's like, you're very important to me.

Theresa Hubbard [01:07:20]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:07:21]:
Especially as a musician. That was part of my heartbreak and my fear.

Theresa Hubbard [01:07:25]:
Yes.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:07:25]:
Will I ever play again?

Cathan Kabrelian [01:07:27]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:07:28]:
And so, so important. And you're in community with a lot of other parts.

Theresa Hubbard [01:07:37]:
Yes.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:07:38]:
That moment was the moment where I realized, this is huge for me and I would like to help other people be able to explain experience, just a deeper knowing, this inner knowing of who I am, what I think, what I feel, what my body's doing.

Theresa Hubbard [01:07:58]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:07:59]:
What I need.

Theresa Hubbard [01:08:00]:
Yes.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:08:00]:
What I'd love.

Theresa Hubbard [01:08:01]:
Yes.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:08:02]:
That. That experience of knowing.

Theresa Hubbard [01:08:05]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:08:06]:
I wish every human could have that. Like you said earlier about the work, you know, you wish everyone could take that course. I wish everyone could experience a deep sense of knowing.

Theresa Hubbard [01:08:18]:
Yes.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:08:19]:
I agree.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:08:20]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [01:08:24]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [01:08:26]:
Thank you, Cathan. Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:08:29]:
You're welcome.

Theresa Hubbard [01:08:34]:
I know we are out of time. Any thing that comes to mind that you would like to share with the people listening today?

Cathan Kabrelian [01:08:56]:
I think that the thing that I would invite people to consider is shifting away, if we can, from that. Right. Wrong. Good. Bad thinking. And seeing if we can shift into a curiosity, as you both have for this podcast, a curiosity about the human experience. Everyone.

Theresa Hubbard [01:09:32]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:09:33]:
Human experience. And to connect on that level of what we all share, which is universal human needs that we all share that. And there's so much connection that can be had there. So much seeing and knowing that can be had there. And I have trouble getting there when I am in that. Right. Wrong, Good, bad thinking.

Theresa Hubbard [01:10:02]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Walker Bird [01:10:07]:
Thank you. That makes me think of my grandparents. You know, a different generation came through the Great Depression, fought in World War II, and there. It's like that was their existence.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:10:19]:
Yes.

Walker Bird [01:10:22]:
And it's a generational shift to change that.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:10:29]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [01:10:30]:
It's interesting.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:10:31]:
And it may take generations.

Walker Bird [01:10:33]:
That's right.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:10:34]:
To shift that. Because me too, my parents, you know, were older parents because I was adopted and they. A military father and a Japanese mother. And there was definitely right and good, bad in the world. And. And it's hard to shift out of that.

Theresa Hubbard [01:10:55]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:10:56]:
Because it seems like it helps. You know, it does meet needs to have that view.

Theresa Hubbard [01:11:01]:
Yes.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:11:03]:
Just doesn't meet all of them. And that's what I hope for us as humans.

Walker Bird [01:11:14]:
Think about your story. I know I keep going on, but it's fascinating and just riveting. Story of growth.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:11:21]:
Right.

Walker Bird [01:11:22]:
If you had not been in that space where you could. Were shifting out of good, bad. Right.

Walker Bird [01:11:28]:
Wrong.

Walker Bird [01:11:28]:
That would have been an entirely different experience at the bottom of that wall and while walking all the way back up.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:11:34]:
Oh, yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [01:11:35]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:11:36]:
Oh, yeah. I'm imagining even that I probably wouldn't have made it. I probably would have been so overwhelmed with all the judgments and I'm so freaking stupid. And, you know, I can't believe, you know, that I probably would have kind of worked myself up into just unconscious, you know, probably would have just fainted because I just couldn't probably hold all of that. Because. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe I would have made it, but.

Theresa Hubbard [01:12:08]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:12:08]:
But it would have been a very different journey up that hill. Yes.

Theresa Hubbard [01:12:11]:
It would have been a very different journey.

Theresa Hubbard [01:12:13]:
Yes. Yes, indeed.

Theresa Hubbard [01:12:16]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [01:12:18]:
And ever since probably too.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:12:20]:
Ever since, I mean, there was something.

Walker Bird [01:12:22]:
That's a big moment.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:12:23]:
That's a big moment. It was a big moment. And self acceptance has always been a need that's a challenge for me to meet for myself.

Theresa Hubbard [01:12:32]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:12:33]:
And that things like that don't help. You know, when I make a decision that obviously doesn't work, it's harder to have a sense of self acceptance.

Theresa Hubbard [01:12:46]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:12:46]:
But when I do that inner work and that inner knowing, I can say, oh, yeah. It's so easy to see when I go deeper how much I wanted adventure and effectiveness and spontaneity and excitement and stimulation. I was meeting a lot of needs by jumping on the wall. And I want to know that. I want to accept that.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:13:14]:
Okay.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:13:14]:
It didn't work out, but I Still actually met those needs in a very different way. That's all very much an adventure. I wish I would have leaped with faith and it would have, I think, been very different. And I want to accept that part of me that was holding back.

Theresa Hubbard [01:13:33]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:13:34]:
Because at first I was really judging that part. Why couldn't you just let me do it? Why couldn't you just let me fly?

Theresa Hubbard [01:13:39]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:13:40]:
And. Oh, because I care about my body, I care about my safety, I care about security. Well, being so to be able to accept both parts of me, that one part was trying to meet these needs and the other part was trying to meet these needs.

Theresa Hubbard [01:13:59]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:13:59]:
And I wasn't integrated. I wasn't holding space for both.

Theresa Hubbard [01:14:03]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:14:04]:
I just had two opposing sides that hadn't met mines yet.

Theresa Hubbard [01:14:09]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:14:10]:
So, yeah, it would have been very different. Yes. And it would have been very different before I jumped had I been able to self connect, I think.

Theresa Hubbard [01:14:19]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:14:19]:
But I don't spend much time on woulda, coulda, shoulda because, you know, I. Each moment is who I am and that's part of the self explanatory acceptance. In that moment. I had two sets of needs I was trying to meet and I hadn't quite taken the time to have a convergence there, you know, so that was me in the moment, conflicted.

Theresa Hubbard [01:14:43]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:14:44]:
And I can look back and say I was very conflicted.

Theresa Hubbard [01:14:47]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:14:48]:
And that had an impact on my decision and my action.

Theresa Hubbard [01:14:53]:
Yes.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:14:54]:
Moving on. Life continues.

Theresa Hubbard [01:14:58]:
Yes. Yes, it does.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:15:00]:
Yes, it does. But it does continue, as you say, in a connected way.

Theresa Hubbard [01:15:03]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:15:04]:
As much as I can. Right. And of course I have moments where I'm not.

Theresa Hubbard [01:15:08]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:15:09]:
And then I get back.

Theresa Hubbard [01:15:11]:
Right.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:15:11]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [01:15:13]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:15:14]:
Thank you. Thank you for your curiosity.

Theresa Hubbard [01:15:17]:
Thank you for sharing.

Theresa Hubbard [01:15:20]:
Yeah, you're welcome.

Theresa Hubbard [01:15:21]:
It helps us all so much to learn from each other if we can stay curious.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:15:29]:
I'm such a fan of the more of us, the better. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [01:15:32]:
Yeah.

Cathan Kabrelian [01:15:33]:
Helping each other.

Theresa Hubbard [01:15:34]:
Yeah, me too. Thank you. Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth and we strive to be more compassionate every day.