Breaking the Silence of Domestic Violence

Walker Bird [00:00:04]:
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life. Each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path. Well, hello.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:33]:
Well, hello. How are you?

Walker Bird [00:00:36]:
I am great.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:37]:
Good.

Walker Bird [00:00:38]:
Happy to be with you.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:39]:
Oh, thanks, babe. I'm happy to be here, too.

Walker Bird [00:00:41]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:42]:
Yeah. So this topic is going to be a hard one to explore, and so we're just going to share our perspectives and thoughts and experiences around domestic violence. And, you know, when I brought up the topic the first time. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:01:16]:
Already Avoidant.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:17]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:01:18]:
Yes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:19]:
Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember what you thought or felt?

Walker Bird [00:01:26]:
Anxiety. I could feel it right here. That spot.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:29]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:01:31]:
My dark spot.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:33]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:01:33]:
Right by the heart.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:37]:
What do you think? I mean, I have thoughts about that. What do you. What do you think that that reaction in your body is connected to?

Walker Bird [00:01:43]:
Just instances, several of domestic violence that I experienced as a child.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:50]:
Yeah, that's what I was thinking, too. Yeah. Anything that you want to share?

Walker Bird [00:01:59]:
There's several. Okay.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:01]:
It's okay.

Walker Bird [00:02:02]:
Yeah, sure. One working that I worked through in a psychodrama, so it was substantial, but, you know, I've processed. It's still. I don't go there very often, but. So my parents got divorced when I was three. And then there was a series of stepfathers while I lived with my mother until I moved to live with my dad when I was 10. And so the first stepfather was a Navy veteran and he had three children from his first marriage. A couple of the boys, his two boys lived with us.

Walker Bird [00:02:58]:
And, you know, we liked each other a lot. You know, we played together. And I. My recollection, I don't think I've ever asked my sisters, but, you know, my second oldest sister and I were there, and I think my oldest sister moved out because she didn't like it. And then my next two older sisters were with me with those children and him. So let me get to it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:31]:
Sorry. It's okay. No, I.

Walker Bird [00:03:32]:
There's an avoidance piece in laying that all out, but, you know, it's to be expected. I'm sure you see it. So the memory that comes to mind, I mean, he did things like spanking us with a belt, you know, and he would. When you got in trouble, you'd get sent upstairs, and it was usually more than one of us that, you know, like, I'd be. We'd be I don't know. I remember with one of his boys, we were out playing in the creek and we walked intentionally across a board that had nails in it. So we both poked our feet.

Theresa Hubbard [00:04:05]:
Oh, gotcha.

Walker Bird [00:04:06]:
You know, just kind of as a daring thing, getting the nail to go through your shoe. I mean, ouch. Anyway, of course they're like tetanus and so they gotta pay for tetanus shots. And money was tight. And I mean, I remember being. I would go just see what he was doing, as little kids do. And he was always at this, you know, a desk with one of those old fashioned 70s, you know, curved desk lamps that people had. You know, you clicked a button and it was a fluorescent light, so the room was dark.

Walker Bird [00:04:36]:
And there he is. And he was. Always seemed stressed about paying bills. So anyway, but you. We got in trouble because it was going to be an expense. Got sent upstairs and I mean, this happened frequently. I mean, you know, I don't know, it wasn't daily. But he would take his belt off and start downstairs and he would fold it in half so you could bow it and he'd snap that as he walked across the.

Walker Bird [00:05:04]:
Underneath us and then all the way up the stairs, come into the room where we were.

Theresa Hubbard [00:05:08]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:05:10]:
And so, you know, there was a hard side to him. He grew up hard out in the country. Old school, beatings of people. But anyway, he. That's just a precursor. So my mom and he separated at some point and. But the boys were still living with us. And I woke up one night and I'm probably six, maybe five.

Walker Bird [00:05:41]:
And it's very vivid to me. You know, they're screaming downstairs. It's just he and my mom and I can't remember his words, but I remember her screaming, get out of my house. Get out of my house. And they were at the. A couple steps up from the bottom of the stairs on the. Because all the bedrooms were upstairs. So it was a couple steps up to a landing and then more steps up to where the bedrooms were.

Walker Bird [00:06:06]:
And you know, I was in bunk beds with the two boys and the girls were in other rooms. But, you know, so I wake up to that screaming and it's getting, you know, to the point where he's slamming her into the wall. You can hear just boom, boom, boom. And she's screaming. Yeah, and he's screaming. I don't remember. And you know, I tried to wake the other kids up and I'm assuming they were pretending to be asleep, they just weren't going. And so nobody responded to me.

Walker Bird [00:06:39]:
And So I crept down the hallway, but I was too afraid to, you know, actually peek around the corner. And that's really. That's all I remember of it. I know he left.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:55]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:06:57]:
And then. I don't think it was immediately after that, but ultimately his kids went with their mom, and we ended up moving up to. We went up to my dad's house for Christmas vacation, is what happened. And he came by the house. Mom was in a Bible study. Yeah. She did some. She got into fundamental.

Walker Bird [00:07:26]:
You know, I mean, it wasn't fundamental, but it was heavy. I don't know. Christian stuff. And so she was doing Bible study, and he came by the house and he had her come outside. Oh, I do remember what he was saying when he was slamming her against the wall. I'm going to kill all of you. I blocked that out.

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:48]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:07:50]:
I'm going to kill all of you. Yeah. It was terrifying. And the. And the fact that nobody else would, like, you know, even acknowledge they were awake was terrifying.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:06]:
Alone.

Walker Bird [00:08:07]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:07]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:08:08]:
Yeah. So anyway, he came by and we were. We weren't there, but mom was. She came outside and he was threatening to kill her. And then he blew his head off.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:20]:
Wow.

Walker Bird [00:08:21]:
In the front yard. So she came up and, you know. And I loved him.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:26]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:08:27]:
Regardless of all the rest. And so. But I remember being there when she shared it with us, and she didn't give the details. I got the details years later in a police report that came to light because of some other things. But in any event, I had read the whole police report. And so it was. It's fascinating how this is 1975. 76, something like that.

Walker Bird [00:08:55]:
How the police were blaming my mother in the report.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:01]:
Wow.

Walker Bird [00:09:01]:
This was the woman's fault.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:03]:
Wow.

Walker Bird [00:09:03]:
And just fascinating stuff.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:05]:
Wow.

Walker Bird [00:09:06]:
Just shocking.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:07]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:09:10]:
So anyway, I. And that's the end of this one, except the. You know, my dad was sitting down. We were down in the basement. She's. Everyone's around. My dad's sitting there. You know, they're divorced, but he.

Walker Bird [00:09:23]:
She's there and she's telling us. And I wanted to cry so bad, but I didn't cry because I didn't want to hurt my dad's feelings by being sad that my stepfather had killed himself.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:37]:
Wow.

Walker Bird [00:09:37]:
Yeah. And I remember going to school and kids were talking about it, you know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:43]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:09:43]:
So one of many instances.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:48]:
Yeah. How do you feel like that influenced who you were as a husband?

Walker Bird [00:10:00]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:00]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:10:01]:
As a husband.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:02]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:10:09]:
Passive. I mean, it isn't like I wouldn't, you know, I'm. No Saint.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:14]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:10:15]:
You know, I didn't break things when I was, you know, when I was married, but. Or punch holes in walls. You know, that happens too. And it wouldn't be surprising given the examples I was given as a kid, but, you know, unless I was driven into a corner, passive, you know, and. Which was a huge, you know, it just devolved the relationship, unfortunately.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:44]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:10:44]:
You know, I think if I hadn't been, you know, from the beginning, that maybe it would have worked out that we would have established boundaries and she wouldn't have, you know, devolved the way she did, you know, because we got together when we were 16 or 14. Yeah. And, you know, she was sweet in so many ways.

Theresa Hubbard [00:11:04]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:11:06]:
But it just that passivity and I'll do, you know, whatever you want, you know, I want you to be happy. Just complete, you know, giving away of self. Not that I didn't have selfish moments. I'm not. Like I said, I'm not pretending. And I don't know why I have to explain it, but I do, apparently so. You know, but there were other parts because my dad had a horrible temper, you know, would break things. He threw a phone through the window once, you know, because he was a doctor and they incessantly contacted him by pager and by phone, et cetera.

Walker Bird [00:11:43]:
And he just freaked out one night. Threw the phone through his bedroom window.

Theresa Hubbard [00:11:47]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:11:48]:
And it was a double paned window. And so I can remember him throwing like once we were outside and he got an argument with my stepmother at the time. Stepmother 1. And he had this, you know, one of those four prong, you know, tilling rakes or whatever. He threw that rake up so high, it was just like, whoa. You know, it was scary.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:11]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:12:12]:
So there were times when I got pushed and pushed and pushed where I would just, you know, scream, you know, both of us, and maybe slam doors. And I remember she had like this runner, you know, just one of those cotton runners, all lacy and stuff at the. This one. We were relatively first married, you know, and I don't even know what it was about, but I remember standing there and, you know, I was totally a child, and I grabbed that runner and I just wadded it all up to, you know, because she had it, like perfectly starched. Wadded it all up, threw it down, you know, to hurt her.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:59]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:13:00]:
And she burst into tears.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:01]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:13:02]:
So two little children standing there doing their thing.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:06]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:13:06]:
Anyway, I. It affected me in those ways.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:09]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:13:10]:
But most of the time it was more just going along to get along and avoidant yeah, yeah, yeah. As you know, I'm avoidant still.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:20]:
Yeah. Working on it.

Walker Bird [00:13:22]:
I'm so complex.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:23]:
Yeah, we all are.

Walker Bird [00:13:25]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:25]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:13:27]:
I could stand up for people in my role as a lawyer.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:30]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:13:30]:
Fight for them. But, you know, being able to acknowledge where I am, etc, is a lot harder. So anyway.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:44]:
Yeah. What else are you thinking?

Walker Bird [00:13:48]:
Just all the other stuff that went on too. It's crazy pants stuff.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:52]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:13:54]:
So anyway, that's my experience, you know, one of them couple, I guess.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:01]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For me, you know what I remember earliest, you know, between my parents, I mean, I had to have been three, you know, and so it's really amazing to think about that, you know, that I would have been that young and remember. Yeah. So clearly we were in the house that we lived in off Holmes, and I remember my mom had this pink nightgown and it was like, you know, like mid thigh and you know, I don't remember what my dad was wearing. I just remember like being in the living room and we had, you know, bookshelves. I don't remember where they were. And I just remember I have this vision of my mom throwing books at my dad, you know, across the living room. And I don't remember any other details about it other than it was really scary.

Walker Bird [00:14:58]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:01]:
And my dad was someone who would throw things, for sure. I don't remember him, you know, doing much cussing, but definitely throwing things, breaking things when he got really upset. And then, you know, my dad was a belt person too. The reality is, is I don't remember being spanked by the belt, but I remember the snapping thing you talked about.

Walker Bird [00:15:31]:
Really? Yeah. Fascinating.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:33]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:15:34]:
Terror.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:34]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:15:35]:
Oh, yeah, sorry.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:37]:
Yeah, yeah, no, it's, you know, the sounds of things, you know, that stick with you. But I remember as a child too, snapping the belt, you know, like there was, I don't even know, some power in snapping the belt.

Walker Bird [00:15:55]:
Sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:55]:
You know, and then when I was, I think 10, I remember the only time I remember being, you know, hit by one of my parents. I was so mad at my parents for not letting me go spend the night at a friend's house who I spent the night at all the time, but there was only one other child living in her house as opposed to the six other children living in my house. So I, I liked going over there. It was, you know, peaceful and quiet. No one was arguing with me or anything. And I remember that my parents, for whatever reason, that one night, you know, told me I couldn't go and. Ooh. I just was so Upset.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:44]:
And my dad sent me away from the table, the dinner table, and I was in the living room, and I was just getting so much more desperate and so much more angry. And I remember. I remember yelling out that they were like a witch and a werewolf in my dad. Oh, he lost his mind. Mind about that. Yeah. And, you know, came into the living room and, you know, physically, like, picked me up and threw me up the stairs and then chased me up the stairs and then picked me up and threw me against the wall, you know, underneath my bed, like the. The bunk bed.

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:32]:
And. And I know he hit me, too, you know, And I. And I. And I know it because I can visualize it. I don't visual. I can't visualize the pain. I just. What I really remember more than anything was I don't think I had ever seen my dad so out of control, you know, I mean, the breaking things was.

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:55]:
I don't know, it was more common, and so it didn't, like, impact me the same way, but that was different. I don't have recollections of my parents hitting my siblings either, you know, but I'm guessing that there was some belt stuff and hitting stuff. I mean, I was the fifth. Right. Of kids. And so I'm sure things changed over time.

Walker Bird [00:18:18]:
Sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:19]:
You know, but for me, that was the most significant, you know, incident. And then I was violent as a child, no doubt, defending, you know, myself against my siblings. And that was aggressive. And so I was aggressive. And then when I was 13, I didn't want to be that anymore. And then when I got married, there was this kind of weird mixture, but I really think I stepped away from the aggression mostly, and I think I became passive aggressive in words. I do remember, you know, when I was married the first time that, like, I remember he got really mad about something and, like, threw, like, his keys. And I remember them hitting the wall.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:17]:
And I remember, you know, being really upset and, like, pounding him on the chest, you know, but I don't remember anything about, like, what the situation was, just that recognition that I felt completely out of control. And then when we were going through our divorce, I remember that I came to pick up the kids one day, and he told me that he wasn't going to let me divorce him. And I lost my mind and just freaked out because I didn't know, you know, if it was true or not true. I just knew I couldn't do it anymore. But I also know that, you know, Chris, my oldest, was probably six at the time. He remembers that you know, he remembers me screaming and yelling and just, you know, the only time I think that he felt afraid, you know, when he was young, of you or general, maybe. General would be an interesting question to ask him. I don't know the answer to that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:20:29]:
I just know that he and I have talked about it. Yeah. And then, you know, in my second marriage, I remember, you know, that he got really upset. I don't remember all the details. I remember that he felt out of control, and I was. I remember being. I was frustrated. I was angry.

Theresa Hubbard [00:21:04]:
But there was also, like a h. I don't really care what you think or feel, you know, Dismissiveness. Yeah. There was definitely that piece in there, too. So even though I was hurting about whatever, you know, often, you know, just feeling not important or not chosen and so justified, you know, about whatever, you know, he was angry about. And I remember that I was holding, you know, one of the kids, and he came and, like, took the, you know, the child out of my arms and then gave the child to the oldest, and then essentially, like, football tackled me, you know, and, you know, I was thrown up against the refrigerator, and I hadn't ever experienced that before.

Walker Bird [00:22:10]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:22:12]:
But I. Weirdly enough, even though I was a fighter, I knew not to fight, you know. Then, you know, like, I remember just laying on the ground and, you know, he was yelling. I don't remember what. I just remember thinking, just don't move. Just don't move. And so I didn't. And then later finding out, you know, I didn't know it right away, but that the refrigerator had, like, literally gone through the drywall, you know, like behind it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:22:50]:
I mean, I knew that refrigerator was dented, but I didn't know, you know, it just wasn't something I. I knew for probably a year or two. I think I was having the kitchen painted and was like, oh. And then it kind of, like, came back.

Walker Bird [00:23:06]:
Sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:06]:
You know, to me. And so, you know, for me, those were. That's what comes to mind, you know, when I think, you know, about what I've experienced, you know, whether it was as a child, you know, or as a partner, you know, to someone.

Walker Bird [00:23:27]:
How do you think that's impacted you in relationship?

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:41]:
Well, I would say I don't recall ever being a thrower of things, so I'm guessing that I chose the opposite, you know, in that regard. I know I chose the same, you know, like, my mom was passive aggressive, and so I know that I took that on. I didn't realize that until much later. I didn't realize that until my second marriage, how passive aggressive of I was when I was struggling, I didn't know how to have a good, clear, compassionate voice. I mean, that was not developed. So I know I was passive aggressive for sure. And then I would say, yeah, you know, not allowing my children to touch each other, you know, or make fun of each other, tease each other, tickle each other, none of that was allowed. So for me, that no doubt came from those experiences with what I witnessed and experienced with my siblings, mostly, and then.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:04]:
And then the bigger instances of, you know, the sexual abuse, you know, that I experienced. And. And then I would say, you know, in my first marriage, you know, I. So he got so much of the responsibility in the struggle because he was so passive. And I was more, you know, frustrated, wanting relationship but not knowing how to do it in any healthy way. But when I. When I got married again and I felt similar feelings, and they were such different men, you know, like, how they walked in the world, I was surprised that I had similar feelings. And that really caught my attention.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:01]:
And I was like, okay, this is something in me that is struggling and then starting therapy and, you know, recognizing, you know, that his coping when he was struggling was to try to get, like, physically big, you know, more like, intimidating, which then just brought out my, you know, like, fighter piece. And even though we didn't, like, fight, fight, it still was the energy.

Walker Bird [00:26:29]:
Sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:30]:
And that's actually when I did EMDR the first time. So 20. I don't know, two years ago, 21. 22 years ago, maybe longer, because I didn't want that feeling anymore. I didn't want to feel that out of control. I didn't want to feel that afraid. I really wanted to. Regardless of what was presented to me, someone's aggression, I didn't want to have those experiences anymore.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:00]:
And that was actually really helpful for me. I remember the next time it happened, you know, and he was stepping into that energy that I just was like, oh, look, I'm not having that. I'm not feeling that in my body. I'm not. I can just sit here and observe what's happening and trying to figure out what is happening, what is happening.

Walker Bird [00:27:22]:
Not matching the energy.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:24]:
Not matching the energy. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And just trying to make it make sense. I mean, that was really where I went to, you know, just trying to understand, like, how did we get here? How did this happen?

Walker Bird [00:27:39]:
Sometimes it just doesn't make any sense because it's not rational.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:42]:
Right, right, right.

Walker Bird [00:27:43]:
The last argument we were talking about, the Other day, between us.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:47]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:27:48]:
It wasn't rational. Not on my part, anyway.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:50]:
Well, like you said, we were tired and traveling. And it's not an excuse. It's just trying to hold context. Right. For the reality of the complexity of our humanness. Right. It's not about not setting boundaries. It's.

Walker Bird [00:28:03]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:04]:
It's. It's really like, can we see more clearly what's happening? Can we be honest with ourselves? You know, with what's happening, you know, whether it's us or the other person or both. You know, because sometimes it is the other person. You know, I mean, not that we don't. We're not in relationship. We're in relationship, but sometimes people just, regardless of what we do, try to control us. And there's that aspect, too. I haven't had that in my relationships.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:38]:
Neither one of my marriages. I didn't experience that from my parents. Still don't experience that from my parents. I feel like they're pretty. You know, I'm not saying they agree or like everything that we choose, but I don't experience my parents as trying to control our choices. Right. And, I mean, I did have that one uncle who really, you know, continued every time I saw him to try to, you know, impact me negatively.

Walker Bird [00:29:07]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:08]:
You know, by being insulting. I mean, he's no longer alive, so I don't have that experience anymore. But I didn't have. I don't know that I've ever, for any extended period of time, had someone in my life who really needed to dominate me all the time. Yeah. What are you thinking?

Walker Bird [00:29:34]:
Just a couple of things. One, I'm rolling through instances in my mind now, so I need to get myself present.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:47]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:29:48]:
And the other is, you know, because I'm living in the past as I'm doing it, so everybody understands that's part of what we are all about, which is getting, you know, if you're in touch with the body, the body lives here in the present.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:05]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:30:06]:
And so I need to do a little bit of that while I'm talking now.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:11]:
What do you need to do?

Walker Bird [00:30:13]:
I just, like, felt my feet against the floor and felt my breath in my chest. You know, the rise and fall. You could feel the breath in lots of areas. But those are two really quick ways to. Hey, you know, here. Here I am. You know, instead of dissociative.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:29]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because we can talk and engage and look like we're present and not be. Right. A different part of our brain is, like, taking over.

Walker Bird [00:30:39]:
Yeah. And I mean, another, as you see I'm closing my eyes. And I'm not being dramatic. I was doing it for me. Is a way to remove other stimuli, you know, and center in your thoughts and to be coherent, to be present.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:57]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:30:57]:
So a few tips for people. Sorry.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:00]:
Yeah. What are you apologizing for?

Walker Bird [00:31:03]:
Oh, just because I want to be present for you, you know, but hearing your trauma, you know, and I've heard some of it, and I, you know, we end up. You hear a little bit more and, you know, pieces come out because we describe it in different ways. Comes out over time.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:18]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:31:18]:
And then thinking about the arguments we have had and thinking, you know, I don't want to be that way, and I don't want to acknowledge, you know, my part in that sort of, you know, behavior, and then wondering, well, what is the definition of domestic violence? You know, because one thing I do know is I can become a screamer and use harming, foul language, you know, to gain power and to shame or to strike out somehow trying to hurt. And that was rampant in my marriage.

Theresa Hubbard [00:32:00]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:32:01]:
I want to say it's not. It hasn't happened very often between us, but it has happened. I mean, it's just a fact. And so when you say, how is the, you know, the death threat and suicide from that stepfather. He wasn't a cusser, you know, he was a religious guy and he didn't cuss. But my dad was a screamer and cursed and taught.

Theresa Hubbard [00:32:29]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:32:30]:
You know, and so is that domestic violence? Using that sort of, you know, big behavior with the demeaning curse words, you know, is that domestic violence? If it's not, it certainly can lead to it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:32:48]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:32:49]:
You know, when you start down that path, I mean that. Thank God I've, you know, I never have done that, you know, struck anybody. For me, it was really about trying to, you know, protect and hurt, you know, but to get away.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:10]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:33:12]:
You know, and that's part of my avoidance piece. You know, I can get big and stuff, but what I'm really ultimately is I want to go hide somewhere, you know, make it stop.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:24]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:33:25]:
So anyway, you know, I'm interested in how in the therapist chair, you would define domestic violence. But I think it's really important that even if it doesn't, you know, everybody can have their spectrum of what that means. Right, sure. And people my age, you know, your age. I'm older than you. But, you know, it was such a. It was a different world. And I think some, you know, there's multiple people that I know who are my age or Older whose parents would smack the shit out of them.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:54]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:33:54]:
You know, whether it was a belt or a cuff across the face.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:57]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:33:57]:
You know, and so I think we can adopt this. This viewpoint that. Well, you know, that was good for me, made me tough.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:05]:
Oh, I've heard.

Walker Bird [00:34:06]:
And I deserved it. I've heard. You know. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:10]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:34:10]:
So anyway. But, you know, there were multiple times, it was like the rule, don't put your elbow on the table with my mother.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:16]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:34:17]:
She would smack your ass off your chair.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:20]:
Wow. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:34:21]:
I mean, hitting. Hitting your head, your arms to get them off the table if they came back up after she said, don't do that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:27]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:34:28]:
That's domestic violence to me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:30]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:34:31]:
You know, and I remember at least one night where it happened more than once because I just wasn't, you know, just a kid.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:40]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:34:42]:
So anyway, that's. There's all that going through. It's probably why I started to, like, drifting away internally, because it's hard to. To face my experience and then load your experience on top.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:54]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:34:55]:
You know, and then even on top of that is when have I done things that are, you know, going down that road? When I have, I behaved in an abusive manner. And, you know, none of us want to be that or to acknowledge it especially.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:13]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:35:14]:
You know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:14]:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. There's so many things I think about, you know, I would say in, you know, relationship with you. I think pretty early on, I recognized when you got upset that you weren't actually talking to me.

Walker Bird [00:35:38]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:39]:
Even if you were upset with me, like, I was like, the. I knew that the level of reaction you were having wasn't congruent with what we were going through.

Walker Bird [00:35:49]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:50]:
And so I was able to separate that out. It didn't mean I liked it. Right. And it still was hurtful, but I didn't. I wasn't shutting down. I was. I mean, it's terrible, but part of me was more curious. I mean, I was.

Theresa Hubbard [00:36:07]:
I mean, it's not terrible, but I mean, I was just, like, fascinating, like. And not to diminish your pain, because you were experiencing pain in our relationship, and that was what you knew how to do.

Walker Bird [00:36:23]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:36:24]:
Yeah. But, yeah, I mean, that first time I was just like. That's so interesting. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:36:33]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That time wasn't about you.

Theresa Hubbard [00:36:37]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:36:38]:
I mean, it was, but not really. Maybe 1%.

Theresa Hubbard [00:36:42]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:36:45]:
But, yeah. I just. Even thinking, you know, because there's my marriage, you know, was. It's disappointing, you know, if I could go back and change.

Theresa Hubbard [00:36:59]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:36:59]:
I would, you know, I regret.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:01]:
Oh, sure.

Walker Bird [00:37:02]:
Even though it was, you know, ugly and I was mistreated, too, I just. I regret treating somebody that way, reacting that way.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:09]:
Right, right.

Walker Bird [00:37:10]:
You know, I mean, in any event.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:14]:
Yeah, yeah. No, I hear you, soul.

Walker Bird [00:37:17]:
Apologies, you know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:19]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:37:20]:
For having been like that. And, you know, I'm happy to say that with you, it's, you know, has only happened rarely, I think, unless I'm lying to myself. You can correct me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:35]:
No.

Walker Bird [00:37:37]:
Yeah. And. But I also know this. You've gotten big with me a few times, too, to the point where I'm like, you need to back off. And I don't know the rest of my reaction, probably that I, you know, scream or whatever. I don't know. But you know, that it's just like, we don't do that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:57]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:37:57]:
You know, I don't do that. Because if you can't. If you can't stop at that point, then other things could happen.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:07]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:38:07]:
Lose your shit.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:08]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:38:09]:
You know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:10]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:38:10]:
And so I'm. I feel good in our relationship that when that has happened, it's just like. Yeah, we don't do that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:17]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:38:18]:
You know, versus I get, you know, physically big and, you know, throw my chest at you or whatever. I mean, because those things can happen and, you know, from life or the news or family things that it can, you know, escalate to people beating each other up or the man beating the hell out of the woman or vice versa. It just depends on circumstances. Because it can happen both ways.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:40]:
Yeah, absolutely.

Walker Bird [00:38:42]:
But, yeah, it's complex, you know, it is.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:46]:
And, you know, and I think about, you know, I can. You know, for me, that was like a. I think it's like a physical piece where, you know, my shoulders probably get wider and my voice probably gets stern is what I would guess. And I laugh because that is what you say, you know, like, oh, we're not doing that. Right.

Walker Bird [00:39:07]:
Oh, it is.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:07]:
And that is.

Walker Bird [00:39:08]:
I have to stop it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:09]:
Right, right.

Walker Bird [00:39:10]:
You know, the physical aspect of it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:12]:
Right, right. And so. And then for me, when you say that, it is like, okay, what is going on for me? Why do I feel in threat right now? Right.

Walker Bird [00:39:26]:
Where do you think you learned to get big like that? Is that from your dad?

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:32]:
Maybe. Maybe my dad. It's funny because I don't know that it was my dad.

Walker Bird [00:39:42]:
It could just be nature, you know, I mean, that's part of us. A fear reaction.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:46]:
The protective, you know, piece. Yeah. Yeah. You're not going to harm me that way, right? Yeah, could be. No, I don't really experience my dad that way. I mean, that. I mean, again, throwing things. And then that one experience of him, you know, I just think he felt out of control and not, you know, excusing his behavior.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:10]:
None of it was okay. But that just wasn't his. It wasn't. His way of walking around the house when he was upset was to like, get big. Right. You know, I mean, he was big. I mean, six three, six four. He's tall.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:25]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:40:26]:
Wiry.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:27]:
But I didn't. I don't have a recollection of him, like, throwing his shoulders back and like, getting big. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:40:33]:
Like no up on you. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:34]:
No, no, no, no. That would probably have been, you know, extended family that I would. That I could visualize that kind of body language of getting big with, you know, but not. Not my dad or my mom. Yeah. You know, you. You asked me too, just as a mental health professional. And I think the answer to that's so complex.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:01]:
You know, I mean, there's plenty of books that have been written, you know, out there about different, you know, types of people who are people that engage in domestic violence. And I would say that, you know, there are people who, Who I think do it regularly as a part of being in a way of being in relationship. And then I think there is situational domestic violence, you know, where people who are not typically engaging with each other that way lose. Lose it. Right, right. And again, no, it's not okay, regardless. But they are not the same.

Walker Bird [00:41:36]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:37]:
At all. You know, you know, clients that I've worked with who were, you know, regardless of their choices and whether they were aggressive or passive aggressive, you know, were tormented by their partners, male or female. And I had a childhood friend that was murdered by her partner. Yeah. You know, and, you know, those are different situations, for sure. You know, in not. Not what I know, I have not experienced that.

Walker Bird [00:42:14]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:15]:
Relationally, that. The intensity. You know, I've never been made to sleep outside on the front porch in a dog bed. I've never been locked out of my own house. I've never been thrown down the stairs. I never had, you know, my neck broken by my partner. Those have never been a part of my experience.

Walker Bird [00:42:43]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:44]:
But I know that they have been part of the experiences of people that I have worked with. And that's, you know, it's different. Again, it's. I think about. I mean, what. The word that continues to come back to me is this need to dominate, you know, others. You know, I need to control others behavior for whatever reason. You know, that is for that person, you know, to inflict that level of pain, that level of control, but then also not having.

Theresa Hubbard [00:43:25]:
I don't know if it's. I mean, I think probably sometimes it's not any awareness on a person's part. Like, they. This is all they've known relationally, and so not taught to have any reflection. Learning to externalize, you know, what happens to you? You know, I think I've talked about this, but, you know, when the kids were young, I remember, like, one of them running into the coffee table and my then husband saying, you know, bad table. And I was like, what are you. What? And he was like, well, I don't want him to think that it's his fault. And I'm like, but it is his fault.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:11]:
You know, he ran into the table. It's not the table's fault. And I remember even then being really clear that I didn't want my kids to think that if they were, you know, that they were harmed, that they should just assume that the. They were harmed because it was an external experience. Right? I wanted them to, like, learn from the experience. And so for me, not blaming others, you know, as a reflective reaction, was a good thing. You know, I want. I want us to increase our awareness and be thoughtful.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:51]:
You know, what's happening for me, you know, why am I choosing this? You know, what do I want most right now? I remember that I was in this doctor's office years ago, probably, like eight years ago, and, oh, he was so condescending and dismissive. And, oh, it was so bad. And I just remember him leaving the room. And, I mean, I, like, just wanted to take him out, you know, and it was definitely verbal, you know, like, there was that part of me that was, you know, thinking of all the things that I could do to shame him, you know, because he was so shaming, you know, to me. And I remember, like, asking the nurse to come back in, and I just said, I want to have another conversation with him, because I literally don't even know what just happened. And I sat there, and I was glad that I had the time, because I kept asking myself, you know, what do you really want? What do you really want? What do you really want? What do you really want? What do you really want? What's really happening for you? And I had an hour because that doctor did not want to come back in the room, even though I hadn't done anything to shame him. He did not.

Walker Bird [00:46:17]:
You sat in an exam room for an hour. Oh, my goodness, Waiting to say, yeah, you have your Say, yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:46:24]:
And then, you know, I finally opened the door again, you know, and they were like, oh, you're still here? And I'm like, yes, you know, I'm still here. I'm sitting in one of your main exam rooms. But, okay. And he comes in, and he was, you know, just as dismissive, like, what's up?

Walker Bird [00:46:38]:
Attitude.

Theresa Hubbard [00:46:38]:
Right. I mean, it was just like, you know, he knew that I had been in there for an hour. They all knew I had been in there for an hour, and they were all avoidant. And when he came in, you know, I was in a different place. You know, I had taken that time to really, again, ask myself, what's happening for you? What do you really want? And I could recognize, you know, the shame and the dismissal and the making fun, you know, of me about, you know, the information that I was providing because I'm trying to make sense about what was happening to me physically. And, you know, and I just said, you know, what you did wasn't helpful for me in any way. I'm not an orthopedic surgeon. I don't know what you need to know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:47:26]:
I'm just trying to give you what I think might be helpful for you to understand what's happening for me. And the reality is, is when I leave here, you know, I'm going to go home and my husband's going to ask me, how'd your appointment go? And I'm going to be like, I don't even know. I don't know what happened. And so I want more from you about what your thought process is, because I don't understand what's happening, you know, and then he said, the reality is I don't know what's happening.

Walker Bird [00:48:00]:
Ah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:48:01]:
And I said, then just please tell me that.

Walker Bird [00:48:04]:
Was that a dismissive statement or he was an acknowledgement? No, I.

Theresa Hubbard [00:48:07]:
No, I think it was an acknowledgment.

Walker Bird [00:48:08]:
So he heard you?

Theresa Hubbard [00:48:09]:
No, he did. Right? No, I really felt like he did. And I said, then just tell me that. You know, I'm trying to be helpful. I'm trying to find an answer. Just be helpful to me.

Walker Bird [00:48:22]:
Yeah, I think there's a, you know, that fear piece of whatever his perfection was, or, you know, they. It's like, I have to have an answer, and he wasn't finding it. He bullied you?

Theresa Hubbard [00:48:30]:
He bullied me. Right. Kept giving me things that it was. I was like, that. I have. No. That. No, you know, and then he was dismissive again.

Theresa Hubbard [00:48:40]:
He went back to dismissive and deflective. And, you Know, but by then, you know, I had what I wanted, you know, which was really an answer, which was, I don't know. And so I was then able to leave and be like, okay, well, he didn't know. Well, I can go find somebody else and get another opinion. And I did. And he was like, oh, yeah, that makes completely complete sense. Did the surgery have never had a problem since the new doctor? Yeah, the new doctor, yeah. But having that time, you know, to be reflective for me, when I, you know, feel that, you know, part, you know, come up the protective, defensive, you know, shame triggered, dismissed, you know, part is helpful for me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:49:26]:
And then practicing again, asking myself all those questions because I. I know the reaction is mine. I know it comes from my fear. I know it comes from my trauma. And so for me, getting clear, what do I really want right now has been really helpful for me in those situations. And again, it doesn't mean it always comes quickly, but it's like we were talking about in the last episode, More practiced. I'm always experimenting, trying to figure out what to say, how to say it differently, and not from a codependent way. I'm trying to make it go away.

Theresa Hubbard [00:50:15]:
I'm really trying to figure out what's really happening for me.

Walker Bird [00:50:18]:
Yeah, it's so hard.

Theresa Hubbard [00:50:21]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:50:22]:
I mean, it is at first anyway, you know, you were blessed in a way to have that hour in the exam room. A lot of people would have just gotten angrier and more closed.

Theresa Hubbard [00:50:41]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:50:43]:
I think because you've been doing your work. You know, was this after you'd been doing work?

Theresa Hubbard [00:50:48]:
Okay, this was probably eight years ago.

Walker Bird [00:50:50]:
Right. Okay. I mean, you'd been down the therapy path for a long time, and so you were able to have some of that conscious awareness, you know, and you also were gifted the time to do it in a kind of a back door way. Right. So what, what advice can you give people? I want to see if there's some tools that you give people not just in that situation. I know you're giving some right there, but, you know, let's say that you hadn't had the hour. You know, if you're in that situation now, how. Or I'm thinking of Gottman method type things for relationship issues.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:27]:
Right? Yeah, go ahead, keep going.

Walker Bird [00:51:29]:
Well, you know, we did some Gottman work for a while and one of them is you just call timeout. You have an agreement with the partner.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:36]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:51:37]:
When I call timeout, we both just disengage and go wait 10 minutes in silence somewhere else.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:43]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:51:44]:
And then come Back into the shared space if we're still warmed up, hot to go.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:49]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:51:50]:
We need another break.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:51]:
Right. And no threat of abandonment. Right. Like we have. We need space.

Walker Bird [00:51:55]:
The lead into all that is really critical. That it's a, you know, it's. This is how we're going to operate in relationship. When we're losing our shit.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:05]:
Right, right, right.

Walker Bird [00:52:07]:
Okay. And it is not going to work every time.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:10]:
No, no, it's not.

Walker Bird [00:52:13]:
And because the other person.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:14]:
No.

Walker Bird [00:52:14]:
And you know, they won't let you go or I want to talk about it now and that sort of thing. And so it's. We can resolve to do it and then, you know, it doesn't always happen. But I think it's again, inclining ourselves towards that as a way to diffuse situations. But if you're not with your partner.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:34]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:52:34]:
What would be your advice to people? To be able to create some space so they could do that introspection that you're talking about, asking yourself those questions, what do I really want? What's motivating this feeling?

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:46]:
You know, it's. It's an interesting question because I like everything else. It's so complex, Right. It depends on the situation and the people involved and where are you. And, you know, I'm thinking, you know, sometimes it's, you know, I don't know, like road rage type thing, you know, just move on. Right. Like this person is not in your life even if, you know, the choice that they made directly or indirectly. Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:16]:
Because a lot of times we are just walking through the world really pretty unaware of others. I would say just, you know, again, what was that about? For me, I think, you know, if you're in a situation where you're, you know, in a more, you know, connected, you know, experience of maybe like at a store or parking lot or something, I think it would be like, is this truly important? You know, I think like sometimes there's road rage and people follow people to a gas station or they'll follow people. Right.

Walker Bird [00:53:53]:
Crazy stuff.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:54]:
Yeah, Right. You know, and then it's like, you know, do I really need to get out of my car? You know, do I really. Do I really need to go into Walmart right now? You know? You know, am I ready for a fight right now? Am I pissed off about this? But I'm going to take it out on this situation, you know? Right. So for me, you know, even just that simple question, what's really happening for me right now?

Walker Bird [00:54:18]:
Sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:18]:
But learning to be honest with ourselves. Right. That's the true, true. Right. Because it can be like, well, they cut me off and it's like, okay, what do you really want right now?

Walker Bird [00:54:29]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:29]:
You know, to be pissed? To let them know they're full of shit or they're, you know, irresponsible or whatever. You know, thinking that if you do that, that's going to change their behavior, you know, I don't know. I mean, I think there's a lot of things we can think, but if we can be honest with, practice being honest with ourselves, what is this really about? I think in those situations we're more likely again inclining the mind to be more honest with ourselves about what's happening. Because our personal relationships, whether it's our partner, our siblings, our parents, our kids, co workers, I mean we have lots of opportunity to practice what's really happening for me. Right. And so I think if we can use those opportunities to be asking ourselves that when those other situations come up, I think it's easier for us to get clear. I mean, I don't think I need an hour anymore to get clear. I mean I did eight years ago for sure, but I don't think I need an hour anymore.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:37]:
I think once the shift happens, you know, again, whatever you were saying earlier. Oh, this, what is it that you said? If I get upset this isn't happening.

Walker Bird [00:55:48]:
Or oh, we don't do that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:50]:
Oh, we don't do that. Right? We don't do that. When you say we don't do that. Right. Like that's a shift for me and then I can like it doesn't mean I'm ready, but I don't need an hour. Right, right. Breathing, breathe.

Walker Bird [00:56:13]:
Yeah, absolutely.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:13]:
Slow, deep breaths. Yeah, yeah. I also do like imagine roots growing out the bottom of my feet, you know, into the ground and just imagine myself really grounded and held by the earth. That is something that I, that I do when I am needing to get grounded. But again, that's the self inquiry piece. What is really happening for me? What is it that I really need right now? What am I afraid of right now? I think are very helpful for me.

Walker Bird [00:56:40]:
Yeah. Yeah. How about advice for, you know, if you're in when you bring you back to full on domestic violence. Right. Advice for diffusing situations before they escalate. And then I'm going to ask you advice for. It's escalating. What do you do?

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:03]:
Oh, babe.

Walker Bird [00:57:08]:
Is that an answer for a law enforcement officer?

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:10]:
Well, I think it's really complex. I think it's so situational. I mean I really lots of variables.

Walker Bird [00:57:18]:
With the Other person's.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:20]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:57:21]:
History. Truly mindset, all that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:23]:
Right, right. Safety. What's past Threats. I mean, I think. I mean, I really think the best thing you can do is to find, you know, professionals who are skilled in this area. Right. Who have. Who really are curious with you about your situation.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:41]:
They're not making assumptions, you know, they're using their experience to really help you get clear, you know, as best you can, what's happening for you.

Walker Bird [00:57:51]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:52]:
Boundaries you need to set. If there's safety things you need to take into consideration. Safety plans. I mean, I think there's just so much. And so what I think about really is more than trying to figure that out on a podcast episode is can we push through the shame that we feel about the situation to ask for help and stick with the process no matter how hard it is? Learning to set boundaries, learning what our codependence is.

Walker Bird [00:58:34]:
When you say codependence, what is it?

Theresa Hubbard [00:58:37]:
Thinking that we can negotiate ourselves out of relationships or situations that are. That we can't, you know, that we can't say the right thing. We can't do the right thing. That's just going to be like, whew, the shift. Right. Like we're not in relationship with someone who. Who wants the same as we do or who wants healthy relationships. Because not everybody wants healthy relationship.

Theresa Hubbard [00:59:00]:
Right. And so for me, again, finding people that are, you know, curious, compassionate and skilled and really helping you get clear about what your situation is.

Walker Bird [00:59:13]:
Sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:59:14]:
I really think is.

Walker Bird [00:59:15]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:59:16]:
The best thing that I could say right now.

Walker Bird [00:59:18]:
Yeah. And in advance. Is just doing, you know, starting to do your work.

Theresa Hubbard [00:59:24]:
Absolutely.

Walker Bird [00:59:24]:
You know, look at yourself and, you know, go to therapy or, you know, start meditation or whatever it is just, you know, self compassion. And when we move along that spectrum.

Theresa Hubbard [00:59:37]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:59:39]:
I think, you know, we learn to be able to set boundaries earlier and know what's acceptable and what's not acceptable in relationship. You know, if we are skirting that line or cross that line.

Theresa Hubbard [00:59:52]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:59:53]:
I'm protecting myself. You know, I'm leaving or, you know, that's. That cannot happen.

Theresa Hubbard [00:59:59]:
Right, right. And to really mean it. Right. Not just the threat piece. Right, right, right. Like true boundaries.

Walker Bird [01:00:07]:
And this is about you not negotiating.

Theresa Hubbard [01:00:09]:
Right.

Walker Bird [01:00:10]:
So that you know.

Theresa Hubbard [01:00:11]:
Right.

Walker Bird [01:00:12]:
Who you are and what, what you need and how, you know, what you will accept in relationship.

Theresa Hubbard [01:00:19]:
Right, right.

Walker Bird [01:00:20]:
All along the spectrum of behavior. Not just violence.

Theresa Hubbard [01:00:24]:
Right, right.

Walker Bird [01:00:25]:
And that's. It's. That's work.

Theresa Hubbard [01:00:26]:
Right.

Walker Bird [01:00:27]:
Still doing it.

Theresa Hubbard [01:00:28]:
Yeah. We all are always. Yeah. Yeah. I think about, you know, adult Children of alcoholics work, you know, that can really help us. Even if we didn't have parents that were alcoholics, they could have had parents that were alcoholics. And so we can transfer down behaviors generationally, even if our parents weren't alcoholics. Right.

Theresa Hubbard [01:00:49]:
But the codependency, you know, piece. And so, you know, really, again, exploring. I mean, I can't tell you how many people I've worked with over the years who were just like, I just didn't know. And I'm like, of course. Right. As opposed to feeling shame about it. It's like. Right, yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [01:01:06]:
You know, we all need more, you know, perspective, learning, but we need people who are curious with us and help us really think about, you know, the whole context, not just the behavior of the other.

Walker Bird [01:01:23]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [01:01:23]:
So that we really are growing so that we can change our relationships going forward, whether it's that relationship or the next relationship.

Walker Bird [01:01:32]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [01:01:32]:
That they can be healthier.

Walker Bird [01:01:33]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [01:01:34]:
So anyway, big topic.

Walker Bird [01:01:38]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [01:01:38]:
But we had to start somewhere. Yeah. Yeah.

Walker Bird [01:01:41]:
I've been drifting in and out.

Theresa Hubbard [01:01:43]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well. And my hope is at some point, you know, if we have some guests that have experienced, you know, that type of domestic violence that is so insidious in their relationship, that can teach us more about their experience so we can.

Walker Bird [01:02:03]:
Continue to learn and avoid the, you know, there's a shame.

Walker Bird [01:02:06]:
Piece to fear.

Walker Bird [01:02:08]:
Having allowed yourself, I think, to, you know, somehow I made that happen. You know, just all those aspects that.

Theresa Hubbard [01:02:15]:
Right.

Walker Bird [01:02:15]:
You know. Yeah. That aren't. Are not helpful.

Theresa Hubbard [01:02:20]:
Not helpful. Yeah.

Walker Bird [01:02:21]:
But I think it's human nature to take that on somehow.

Theresa Hubbard [01:02:25]:
Oh, sure.

Walker Bird [01:02:25]:
Common.

Theresa Hubbard [01:02:26]:
Well, or. We're taught that. Right. In our family system or relationship. This is yours to carry. I would not do that if you had not done that.

Walker Bird [01:02:33]:
Right, right, right.

Theresa Hubbard [01:02:35]:
I think that is a very common phrase. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're the only person that makes me act that way. Things like that. Yeah. Anyway, thanks for the conversation.

Walker Bird [01:02:49]:
Yeah, thank you. I love you, too.

Theresa Hubbard [01:02:53]:
Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with. With you. We encourage curiosity, self growth, and we strive to be more compassionate every day.