Catching Ourselves With Compassion

Walker [00:00:04]:
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life. Each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path.

Theresa [00:00:32]:
I would love to learn more about your journey and even the time that you've recently spent away.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:00:42]:
I think that it's. It's a never ending grab bag of, you know, I used to be a clerk of a Quaker meeting and the Quakers, I learned that there's an activity which I'm sure is not uncommon in other faiths, of people taking a talking stick and sharing. Tell us about your spiritual journey. And so a person sits with a talking stick and they share their spiritual journey and then it goes to the next person. You know, you could be there for hours with that kind of thing. So.

Theresa [00:01:32]:
Yeah, yeah. Well, we would love to offer you the talking stick. Joel.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:01:42]:
I don't know. I mean, what. I mean, I do want to say I really appreciate your feedback to me about the. Working with the attractions. I believe that, that as I, you know, I talk about it in that book, that my experience of my parents and how they were in their relationship had, you know, perhaps the most profound impact on me as a human being, you know, and, you know, I'm a big fan of. I think I may have mentioned this last time of Michael Mead and his use of myth and story. And something that is a common theme in his work is this idea of, you know, we're born into the world from one angle, as though we're, you know, a blank slate that the parents say, okay, we're gonna, you know, give you everything. And then the other side is you're already born in with the imprint or the signature of your destiny, unbeknownst to your parents.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:02:57]:
Right. And we've. We actually art and in our podcast, we talked about this idea of parenting and how as a parent, you get to this point of recognition, maybe you know, of like, oh, what is, what is this human being here for? And how can I support their coming into their own deeper self? But for the most part, many parents don't go there. Instead, it's like, how can I get, you know, through this experience and get them out the door? You know, and, and so the whole idea of the soul or the deeper self or the higher self or the, the big self instead of the personality, ego, self, you know, is something that we all carry within Us, Right.

Theresa [00:03:54]:
Yeah.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:03:54]:
So it's the. It's the seed of the spiritual journey. It's the seed of everything. So a child experiences their mother and that has an imprint on them in the Eureka. Enneagram work. It's the conservation instinct. How am I, am I going to be okay? Do I have security? It's associated with the abdomen and the intestinal. Everything that we have to do to secure ourselves.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:04:26]:
And then there's a relationship with the father which is, you know, more. These are, these are of course, broad concepts. You know, with the thoracic area, the heart, relationships. Who am I with, you know, how. How am I going to be with other people? How am I going to navigate my social life? And. But then there's also the head, you know, like navigating the environment and adapt adaptation. So conservation, empathy and adaptation. Right.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:05:06]:
Empathetic reasoning, analy analogical reasoning and analytical reasoning. And all of this is Oscar Chazzo, you know, the original teachings of the Enneagram and the fixations. And there's also the child's experience of one's parents.

Theresa [00:05:32]:
Yeah.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:05:35]:
Not just my relationship to my mother, not my relationship to my father, but my relationship to both of them and how well they did or did not get along and what they navigated. Because the child is watching this, you know, and learning. And. And so if I can talk about my journey. But I think anybody who talks about their journey would also include in that. What was it like living with that relationship?

Theresa [00:06:08]:
Oh, that'd be lovely.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:06:10]:
And that, that, that doesn't get talked about a lot, you know, and there's not a lot out there on. What was it like growing up with those two people trying to figure out their own growing up.

Theresa [00:06:23]:
Yeah.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:06:24]:
And so I just say that that's one framework, Right. To talk about the journey. Just in and of itself, that's a few days of conversation.

Theresa [00:06:37]:
For it. We may need to schedule a job over on for it.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:06:42]:
But that to me is where most of my understanding of life and what my spirit was brought here for was to do. I mean, my, my first book, Time and Intimacy. Right. I mean, like I had, I had to have to figure this out. You know, I have to figure this out. And so am I in. Am I answering? Am I beginning to answer? Is this what you were looking potentially for? Maybe in this.

Theresa [00:07:13]:
Oh, Joel, we're open.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:07:15]:
Yeah.

Walker [00:07:15]:
We don't have an agenda. It's yours.

Theresa [00:07:17]:
Yeah. And it's a fascinating conversation. It would be fascinating for you to share that perspective.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:07:29]:
Has anybody you've ever had on talked about this. Do you ever have this topic discussed? No. It's interesting because our culture is like, well, your relationship to yourself, your relationship to your mother, your relationship to your father, your relationship to your career, your calling, your spiritual path. But our parental relationships.

Theresa [00:07:51]:
Yeah.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:07:52]:
Have such a profound impact on us.

Theresa [00:07:55]:
Yes. Yes.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:07:57]:
So, you know, I. All I can begin to say there is that I knew something wasn't right, you know.

Theresa [00:08:10]:
Yeah.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:08:11]:
And of course, they divorced. And I think any adult who has. Who's an adult child of divorce has a special wrinkle, if you will, if not rift in doing that work on their own journey in terms of how they. How they understand their parents, walk into the divorce and everything else that happened around that. You know, I am also in a step family, and I remember early on I would go to a step family's meeting, and I've been to a lot of workshops, a lot of spiritual work, and those meetings with people who are struggling to try and figure out how to do a step family. Similar, very powerful, deep, difficult work. Some of the most difficult work, especially when people are fresh from a divorce or they have. You know, I've got four kids from the first marriage, two kids from second marriage.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:09:27]:
You've got three kids from. Right. You guys are looking at each other.

Theresa [00:09:34]:
Oh, yeah, we know.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:09:38]:
And so maybe you can share as well, because this. This navigating these types of relationships and being okay with it, you know, it's not all one big Greek family. You know, it's not this perfect. Like, we're gonna get together and we're gonna have a great time, you know, Opa. You know, it's not. That's not the way it is in the world, you know, those Greek family weddings. What are my big fat Greek wedding weddings? Right. And even those are great because they show all these, you know, nuances and such.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:10:19]:
So where am I going with all this? I'm just opening up the topic. Right. That I think is one that's just not discussed.

Theresa [00:10:29]:
Yeah, agreed.

Walker [00:10:33]:
Why do you think we don't discuss it, Joel?

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:10:40]:
I don't know. I mean, I haven't looked at why, except I know as an. As a child of divorce, there's so many wounds there.

Walker [00:10:50]:
Yes.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:10:50]:
So painful and. And even, of course, traumatic that there's. It's difficult to talk about. You know, it's. I mean, I have some adult childhood divorce books, and I'm sure they talk about in there, as I recall. Shame. You know, there's something wrong with me because I don't have an intact family. And so.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:11:19]:
But you know, that's not always the case. Some people have divorces that are very amicable and the kids are taken care of very well. You know, so I. I don't want to make a broad statement about it, but I think it's. It's that it's the shame and the trauma of. Of loss and of pain, of separation, you know, which. Which reactivates even earlier, you know, issues around abandonment and loneliness. So that's.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:12:06]:
That's the short answer.

Walker [00:12:09]:
You mentioned your. How you piece together your soul journey with the experience as a child, you know, as. I think you were suggesting that if that was supposed to happen for your growth, but you didn't say those words, but you tied the two together somehow. So could you explain that a little bit?

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:12:33]:
Well, yeah, that's. I mean, that's all of, you know, the. The psychology of myth and. The myth of psychology and Michael Mead's work and Carl Jung's work where, you know, we. We start to review, we recollect, we contemplate how did we get to this place in our life and where those wounds are. Become the very source of growth. So, I mean, that's standard in many modern psychological, you know, approaches to healing. So that's.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:13:17]:
Yeah, that's all I was saying there. It's. It's a pretty common thing. And I think part of that is your relationship to your. To your parents relationship, you know, so I can. I mean, I could share stories, I think, without getting into too much detail of, you know, parents judging each other, parents maybe using a child to get the empathy that they're not getting from the other parent. Parentification of the child. The carpent triangle, you know, victim, perpetrator, hero, which can happen in any family where the child can play all three.

Walker [00:14:08]:
Yeah, right.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:14:11]:
You know, there have been so many biographies on that. You know, one. One that I really like is Gene Wilder's biography of his. You know, how did he become a comedian? Well, he was playing into his own mother's needs, and he went through his own therapy and in many ways was one of the first people to talk about these things. So, you know, you. You kind of figure out, how did I get here? And maybe in. I don't remember the detail, but in his case, it was something like, well, he made her happy. Right.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:14:55]:
You know, and then there's the whole Oedipal thing. You know, it just goes on and on. It's. It's. There's not one part of this that it's like you pull one thread. There's so Many different parts to it. Yeah. The son as the king, you know, the daughter as the queen, the daughter as the princess.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:15:15]:
My princess. What. What does that mean? What weight does that carry? The other day my granddaughter said to me, well, my seven year old said, well, if you and my wife. Well, if you guys break up, then maybe, you know. Right. The child. Children. Children have their own fantasies, you know, about.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:15:43]:
About these things. So it's a rich terrain for understanding where. Where our soul is going. Not just in terms of being an adult, whatever gender, you know, you're going to be identified with, but also an adult person in relationship. So whether. Regardless of your gender identity or your even your sexual identity. So I think this is a universal theme and it would be wrong for me to act like an expert here. You know, it's just on.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:16:31]:
It's. You asked me, you know, talk about what. What my journey is about, and I just think that that's an area that we don't talk about.

Theresa [00:16:39]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Walker [00:16:43]:
What are you thinking?

Theresa [00:16:44]:
I was just thinking about the conversation we had the other day. We were. We recorded an episode that will come out next month and yours will come out in December. So we've got, you know, we're not giving anything away, but we talked about the impact of, you know, witnessing our parents in domestic violence and the impact that had on, you know, us growing up and the impact that had on our future relationships, whichever way it went. But I guess that was a little bit that we stepped. That you and I stepped into. Sure, yeah.

Walker [00:17:24]:
It's difficult.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:17:27]:
So you're. Both of you had that experience of witnessing parental, domestic parent to parent violence.

Theresa [00:17:36]:
Yeah, mine.

Walker [00:17:38]:
Mine was parent to parent violence.

Theresa [00:17:41]:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, a little bit with my parents. I mean, I remember a particular incident when I was about three, very clearly. My mom throwing books at my dad across the living room. And you know, obviously it stuck with me. I can picture it very clearly and what she was wearing and you know, and even the. Oh, like what their relationship was. I can, you know, clearly think about how that impacted me and still, I mean, they're 82 and 84 right now and still married and can consider the dynamic of their relationship throughout the years on me.

Theresa [00:18:29]:
But our specific conversation was the violence, you know, that we encountered. Walker sharing was more the step parent. Yes.

Walker [00:18:41]:
Both of my parents were married four times, so I must have chosen a. That path to experience it multiple times. So. Yeah.

Theresa [00:18:53]:
And in different ways. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:18:56]:
So without, you know, I think this topic can be very difficult for people, of course. So we're not here in a therapeutic role talking about this.

Theresa [00:19:09]:
Right?

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:19:09]:
But I think the key is what strengths do we develop as a result? And they're not just strengths that are simply compensations or adaptations, but rather going back to what I was saying earlier, it's part of our innate, you know, destiny to, to work this through. You know, I mean, there are many traditions that say you choose your parents, you know, when you come into the earth plane. You know, there, there are traditions that say your, your parents don't choose you, you choose your parents and you decide, you know, imagining the spirit hovering and who am I gonna, you know, who am I, where am I going to enter, right. And so if you're in a situation with four, you know, step parents, there's, there's okay, what's the strength, what's the skill, what's the aptitude, what's the special genius, right. That grew from that or is still growing from that? You know, I think in my case, I think there's so much, I think the two sides on the mother side, a very deep profound sadness and empathy for sadness for people who are very lost and struggling and have health risk. Right. And how that can be precipitated by heartbreak and seeing that many people are in crisis because of heartbreak, you know, because of betrayal, because of thwarted expectations from a primary attachment and on, and on the, on the father side, it's more of the passion for making an impact. Being seen and being known and being heard.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:21:49]:
So it's a, it's a, almost like polar opposites. And my, a lot of my work, you know, my training, I mean I do training all the time train a trainer around these, the idea of resilience to thriving and health consciousness and team awareness and leadership. I mean all the different topics that we cover, I think at the root of it is this desire to bring these opposites together, you know, to, to help those who are in this position of not listening, to do a better job of listening and to help those people who are not heard to do a better job of speaking up. And I mean, if I had to summarize it, I think that's one of the gifts that came and is still coming from having worked through my parents dysfunctional relationship. Does that make sense?

Walker [00:23:00]:
And absolutely. I mean I'm putting it in context myself and it's just fascinating when you have just putting it in your paradigm, you know, where I fell in our analysis. And it doesn't surprise me that I would be integrating would be one of my primary attractions, you know, and I Call it a freeze response, but you call it stagnation on the lower end vibration of that. And so the. But I can also see the bigger picture that's still coming. It's what I expressed to you in the email earlier today. And so it's, you know, there are so many things that we gain through those experiences, like resilience, you know, resolve, imagination, and, you know, then pairing the two together over the course of a lifetime is, you know, that's where I find myself. But, you know, there was, there were, there were lots of challenges and they did.

Walker [00:24:09]:
One thing that fascinates me as we go along this path is our role in choosing those things or in building new barriers that get in the way. And so it seems to be a common theme that I come up with with the people that we talk to as, you know, why do you suppose that that is the nature of our experience, that we can throw our own barriers in our way when our, you know, you have the soul that is there, it has a purpose, this trajectory. And then it's not the easy button.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:24:50]:
Well, there's so much in what you just said. If I can respond to that, can I? Oh, yeah. So integration. You're talking about the attract. Being attracted to integration. So of course I'm hearing having these multi layered step family at. What the WTF is going on here?

Walker [00:25:12]:
Right? Exactly. Yeah. It was a train wreck.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:25:16]:
Right. So you're, as a child and as you're maturing into adulthood, you're. You're like, you have to figure this out. You just have to figure it out. You're compul. It's a compulsion to figure this out. So your attraction to synthesizing and integrating has been with you for a long time.

Theresa [00:25:37]:
Right.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:25:39]:
So that's, that's one thing. That's right.

Walker [00:25:41]:
Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:25:43]:
And then the other thing I'm hearing is at the same time that has overridden or gotten the way of another desire you have, which is to use your imagination and to be innovative and to express a different part of you where you don't have to always, you know, pull everybody together and make sure they're all getting along and harmony and it's like, enough already. I need, I want to have a life outside of having to integrate. Is that what I'm also hearing?

Walker [00:26:18]:
Absolutely.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:26:19]:
Yeah.

Walker [00:26:21]:
No. And a desire over many years to experience life and, and have adventure and go places and experience people have conversations like this. But I'm 56, so it's taken. I've had to go through a lot of barriers that were given to me or that I created along the. To get to this point. But it's happening, you know, and. Yeah, so it's just. It's just such an interesting process.

Walker [00:26:57]:
But if we put it in terms of what we're trying to do is, you know, there's certain events in people's lives or, you know, turning points, decision points, and we're trying to get a, you know, put a finger on what is it, you know, what's the guidance system that you came to at different points along the way? You know, like, for me, coming out of that background, my life could have been completely different if I, you know, chosen a path of, you know, drugs or whatever it may be, or to just succumb and not continue trying to improve myself or just go to sleep, which is what happened until I got cancer. And the cancer is. Is what so bizarrely saved my life.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:27:52]:
That's amazing. I mean, listening to you, I. Congratulations or blessings. Because in reflecting right there, you're weaving your own story in a way that's positive and promising, but speaks to that. That desire for life, for spirit, for growth. And I, you know, I think so. That's great that you're able to see all that. And.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:28:31]:
And I. And then I also heard you say we also throw up barriers. We put. We throw up our own blocks. So I'm assuming there's. What you're talking about. There is that even cancer saved your life. And even though you're now on an arc of positive growth and change, you can feel it when you stumble or you, you, you know, smack yourself in the head.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:29:02]:
Did I just do that again? You know.

Walker [00:29:04]:
Right. Absolutely right.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:29:07]:
So. So it's. That's a good thing because, you know, again, going back to the enneagram, the. The little ego. The ego personality doesn't want you to always, you know, it's scary.

Walker [00:29:29]:
Exactly.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:29:30]:
Learning how to integrate and figuring all that out took a lot of time and effort to survive. And so those. Those automatic mechanisms are well entrenched because they reinforced a survival. So now your ego was like, what are you trying to do here? We're having a. Everything's going okay. You know, you want to change things up. Right. I mean, this is classic stuff.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:29:56]:
And. And I think it's one thing to throw up a barrier or get into the fixation or the compulsion. It's another thing to see it when it happens and feel that alarm or shock. What. That's the awakening point, right? That's the catching of oneself. I'll send you this video we just did. That's catching ourselves with compassion at those points where we throw up, those barriers are. That's, that's really what this is all about.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:30:38]:
That, that mindful. At the end of the day, that's what mindfulness, quote, should really direct us all to. Instead of beating ourselves up, getting into a fight, recreating the parental drama, you know, being a victim, perpetrator or hero or whatever, we do just like, oh, there it is again. So what I'm hearing you say is you've been doing that.

Walker [00:31:07]:
Oh, absolutely. You know, we want it all to, you know, we reach the destination and it just, it's not that way. I have to continue to catch myself. Right?

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:31:23]:
Yeah.

Walker [00:31:23]:
So let me ask you, Joel, when you get to that point yourself where you catch yourself, what's your process? You know, how do you hold yourself in compassion and, and know what the next step is?

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:31:37]:
Well, first, I think it's different for everybody. I don't think that what I would share would apply to anybody. But you know, the anger, fear and sadness, because I'm an emotional type. Right. Is where it works out for me. I think other people, it's like, you know, like dislike be critical isn't is another place that it shows up for people who may be more in the head space. Right. And actual hate and love.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:32:22]:
Right. Or you know, complete ambivalence for people who are in another space. But for me, it's fear, sadness and anger. And I can have a, a literally two sentence conversation with my wife and experience fear, sadness and anger all at the same time. So where I. What it's like for me is like, okay, don't say anything at this point. Take a breath, pause, try and say something loving. So it goes back to the parent, it goes back to the relationship thing again.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:33:14]:
Right. That it's, it's. Do I. Do I want to recreate and perpetuate the very drama that I tried to get myself out of here.

Walker [00:33:24]:
Right.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:33:25]:
Even in small little ways, you know, and that's the choice. So I think for me, you know, fear of abandonment, fear of not being recognized for my contribution, sadness because I'm not being recognized for my contribution. And, and you know what the anger, you know, do we have to go through this again? So all of that stuff happens so quickly.

Theresa [00:33:55]:
Yeah.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:33:56]:
And so for me, I think on my better days, I catch myself, which may be 50, 50.

Walker [00:34:06]:
I'm laughing with, you know, commiseration. Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:34:14]:
It can get pretty loud in the house, but you know, at the end of the day, at this Point, you know, we're going to be married 30 years, you know, knock on wood. Right. That we sort of have a little fun with it, you know?

Walker [00:34:31]:
Yeah.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:34:32]:
You have to have, like, a little fun with it, rather than take myself or each other seriously. So that's the other piece. Humor. Yeah. You have to not, like I say in book one, don't take any of it seriously. We talked about that.

Theresa [00:34:52]:
Yeah.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:34:53]:
The first time we talked.

Walker [00:34:54]:
Yeah.

Theresa [00:34:56]:
Yeah.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:34:57]:
We're back to that.

Walker [00:34:58]:
That's okay.

Theresa [00:34:59]:
Yeah.

Walker [00:35:00]:
Well, I'm okay with it.

Theresa [00:35:01]:
Okay. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Joel, for you, when you are. When you're thinking about the impact of the parental relationship on us, then I. And again, I know it's not something that we talk about often, I guess, in exploring that, is it something that you feel like you've done much work in or studied or explored with people specifically around that, or do you feel like this is something that you want to do more exploring around with people?

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:36:02]:
Well, there's been. There's so much that I've done and there's so many things out there, you know. Was it the old Hoffman process?

Theresa [00:36:08]:
Oh, yeah, I did that.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:36:10]:
Yeah. So that, you know, that's pretty deep work. Yeah, that very thing. Right?

Theresa [00:36:16]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:36:18]:
And so, you know, you. One tool that I haven't used in a while, but, you know, maybe it's coming back, is you just. You just write on a page, as many pages, you know, even a notebook, all the adjectives and memories, you know, first, all the adjectives. Right. That you associate with that relationship. And while you're doing it, you know, you're always deeping deep breathing, you know, deep breathing, lighting a candle, you know, almost like a sacrament, you know, all the ideas you have, all the memories you have, all the motions you have. And with the deep breathing, cultivating compassion for the parents, like recognizing they didn't know any better. Right.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:37:12]:
They. There's nothing to judge there. They did their best. They brought you into the world. So there's also getting back in touch with a very deep gratitude. So compassion for their limitations and gratitude for their coming together.

Theresa [00:37:33]:
Yeah.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:37:34]:
Right. And then kind of the recognition of you are now able to benefit from that and recognizing that you're also not them. Right. So those are the kind of the. My understanding of the core pillars of that deep work so that you can honor the parents as it. As it says. Right. Honor your mother and father in.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:38:05]:
In the deeper spiritual way. Not the, quote, you know, rules of the Ten Commandments, but the deep honoring of the mother and the father. Processing your grief around that and, but then getting back in touch with the gratitude and, and then the letting go. Right, Letting go, which never happens. You know, as a, as a born and raised Jewish, I do my best to light the yard site candles right when. At the anniversary of their death. So you're always remembering them. And as part of that faith, every year you get a chance to remember and through that memorial, and part of that memorial is exactly what I just described.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:38:58]:
You honor them. You wish their soul the best journey possible. You thank them for what they gave you. It's, it's, it's powerful. So.

Theresa [00:39:17]:
Yeah. Did you do the Hoffman process, Joel?

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:39:21]:
I didn't do, but in Arika there was a similar process. But do you want to share your experience? I mean.

Theresa [00:39:27]:
Oh, yeah, sure. So I went through the hoffman process, oh, 10, 11 years ago, I don't remember exactly. And there was a significant amount of pre process work that we did. I think it was, you know, basically like 40 pages of things to think about ahead of time to increase your awareness around family system patterns in all the different areas. And then to bring a picture of yourself as child was part of the process. And you put the, that picture in like the clear front of the vinyl binder that you got, you know, when you got there that kind of like laid out everything. And when I went, I think it was seven days. I think it used to be 10, but I think when I went it was seven.

Theresa [00:40:32]:
They have reduced it to seven days. And how I experience it, you know, in like an overview, is like they're trying to help you grow up like your little self into more of an adult self. And while I had appreciation prior to that for the things that I learned from my parents that were, oh, things that supported me well on my journey, that process of really spending that amount of time and focus and energy into exploring that whole relationship, you know them individually and then again some as a, you know, as a unit, absolutely increased my compassion for them. Even like yesterday I was with my parents and my mom's been sick with a, an infection they haven't been able to get under control. And watching her struggle, watching her be in physical pain, watching her be more passive aggressive and grouchy than she would normally be, watching my dad not know what to do with that, watching his pain and feeling like he's doing something wrong, you know, watching him engage with her, you know, like they're young, you know, like, why do you have to be so grouchy, you know, and not have that awareness that he's afraid that, you know, and that she's in. That her passive aggressive, grouchy is because her physical pain is in her own fear, you know, of having like a PICC line in and then having to come, you know, and give her IV antibiotics twice a day to see if they can, you know, get this infection under control.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:43:10]:
Oh, my God. So how are you doing?

Theresa [00:43:18]:
An awareness of. Well, so many things. Compassion for their struggle. Compassion for as far as they have been able to go in their lifetime, relationally more of the realization of the. The amount of fear that they are in, in regards to their own mortality in the helplessness. So really very much sensing and feeling and observing, you know, the whole system, you know, happening. So it doesn't make me grouchy at them for their struggle. Grateful that I started this journey and that I keep on this journey.

Theresa [00:44:36]:
I don't want passive aggressive and frustration and grouchy and anger to be where I go when I'm sick and struggling. I want that period of time in my own life to have more freedom even as I age and I'm less able in some ways. Yeah, Joel, it's a lot.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:45:04]:
I mean, how has your own previous work, whether it was doing the Hoffman process or doing this work around compassion, has that. How has that played a role in how you're processing what's happening now with them?

Theresa [00:45:25]:
Oh, my gosh. Well, I don't have to be in their process. I can hold on to myself and, you know, not join in, not play whatever role I was, you know, trained to play. Yeah, holding on to myself, for sure. And compassion, the ability to see, you know, to consider others emotional experience when you know, something that they're doing or saying is particularly triggering for me. Yeah, I was thinking it was, you know, how. How the universe works. My youngest son was texting me last night about how a player on his volleyball team was particularly aggressive to him yesterday and.

Theresa [00:46:37]:
And said something to him that felt very cruel. And. And it was helpful for me to have my own awareness of what my parents were going through because I was then able to say, you know, because this guy, he was trying to play through his back pain and it got so bad that he ended up having to step out of the game. And so I was saying, you know what? I don't know if this is helpful to you or not, but what I've learned over the years is when people are in physical pain, we tend to see the parts of them that are still hurting younger. And maybe that's what was happening, you know, for this person. If it's not his pattern, you know, to engage with you that way, maybe he's just hurting. So I feel like, Joel, it's all the work that I've done has offered me so much, you know, just, and, and not just being able to not step into a role in my family, but also to, I don't know, reinforce the made up stories we make about how other people engage with us and that we take it all so personally, you know, just trying to, you know, consider what might that other person be going through. Not as an excuse.

Theresa [00:48:06]:
Right. I always say not as an excuse.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:48:08]:
But genuinely just, it's, it's perspective. Taking compassion and empathy as the solution.

Theresa [00:48:18]:
Yeah.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:48:19]:
In and of itself, you know, there's necessarily what I'm, what I'm hearing you say is that you and I, and I think people listening to this, you're able to recognize that you are not your parents. Yes, to help your son get distance, but not distance without compassion. So you're distancing yourself in a positive way with compassion on one side and helping your son distance himself with compassion on the other side.

Theresa [00:48:54]:
Yes.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:48:56]:
You know, it's, it is the fundamentals of Buddhism, you know, to bring that, that energy that in, in, in Buddhism, that's what they say Bodhichitta is, it's, it's not just awareness, it's awareness with this deep, penetrating compassion, you know, so you can almost can't separate compassion from mindfulness in its, in its truest form. And so you're demonstrating that in these stories. And I think to kind of help Cat, kind of, I want to take a moment to just encapsulate that people who are listening to this, they may recognize their relationship with their parents at whatever stage of life they're on. If you're younger and you're listening to this, you may not be at that place where you can have empathy because you're still angry, sad and afraid and struggling with the trauma legacy that was handed to you. If you're middle age, you are not able to process this because you're, you know, you're busy raising your own children, making mistakes all the time. And you know, you're, you're thankful that you can, you know, take out the garbage because you just have enough time to do that. Right. Because they're not going to do it.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:50:20]:
So I, you know, this is all a bunch of hoity story, hoity toity stuff. And then if you're at an older, you know, and you're dealing with aging parents, you know, it's not just pain, it's pain in the face of. Or in the face of potential death.

Theresa [00:50:36]:
Yes.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:50:36]:
Which is the most overwhelming experience that a human being can have. So I, I won't. I'll give you a story. I know somebody who was completely unreconciled with a parent who had abandoned them. And when that parent was coming back, they would not even consider, you know, any reconciliation because of the many years of wounding. And there's no judgment there because that was a healthy thing for that person to do. Right. You know, in that, no, I can't accept you back, even though you're in, in deep pain and need.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:51:27]:
And so I think we have to be careful to idealize this idea of reconciliation. And it. And so the reason I'm bringing that up is that as people who. We don't know who's going to be listening to this.

Theresa [00:51:42]:
Right, right.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:51:43]:
And you. There should be no shame that you have to have gotten reconcil. Reconciled. There should be no, you know, personal retribution, you know, or beating yourself up. Because in the truth is our. Some of our deepest and wounds come from parents who are perpetrators.

Theresa [00:52:07]:
Yes.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:52:08]:
And so in framing this conversation, I had no idea this is where we were going to go today. But, you know, I will, I will say that it has informed me in terms of really trying to understand how to make intimacy work. Right. Which is what I think brought us together. Right. How can we make intimacy work? How can we learn from these pathologies? You know, how can we. And I want to give a shout out to people who are struggling in the modern age with minority stress because of their gender identity or sexual identity, that there are many people now who have that additional layer on top of this, you know, and what does a relationship look like? It's got to be very scary. And in certain places of the.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:53:09]:
Of the world, it's more than scary, it's life threatening.

Theresa [00:53:13]:
Right.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:53:14]:
And so, you know, as we talk about these issues, I think it's important to put some caveats in, you know, around these things and recognize that this is some of the most difficult work that a human being does. I mean, many addictions, you know, the, the relationship addictions, romance addiction, sex addiction, relationship addiction are sometimes, some people believe, fundamental to all other addictions. And they come in part from those insecure, avoidant failures at early childhood bonding because of the parental dysfunction. So, you know, we're not talking about a light topic here. Sorry. So. Okay. All right.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:54:14]:
I need a drink of water. I don't know. What is it with you guys? How do you do it? How do you bring this stuff out? I don't know.

Theresa [00:54:30]:
We don't know.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:54:33]:
I'm all a mess now. Oh, that's okay. But I hope that made sense, that I thought it'd be important since this is being recorded, to put some of those thoughts out there and wondered if you had anything to add to that.

Theresa [00:54:58]:
No, it's interesting. I mean, what I, what comes to mind, you know, for me, when you were sharing, when my youngest child began identifying as male and then thinking about the relationship that her dad and I have as parents, you know, to her probably as unsure of how to be or respond, it was something that we handled very similarly. And even though we said we'll do our best, you know, to support you and understand, he and I weren't at either one was like staking their claim in regards to what's right and grateful that that was what we chose. Just thinking about how they experience us as parents relationally in that part of their life and ultimately the long term impact negatively or positively that that had. Right. Because I can have my own experience of how we responded. Right. But it doesn't mean that they have that experience.

Theresa [00:57:21]:
But it makes me curious now to go have that conversation.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:57:29]:
Well, that, that's, that's the journey, that's the story, you know, starting off the conversation. It's a never ending story.

Theresa [00:57:37]:
Right.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:57:37]:
Because the healing that comes from having conversations with our parents comes because there's a willingness to go back and you know, re. Narrate, reconsolidate, not just, you know, we're not just machines reviewing the text. Right. There's the transformation of the text. And so, you know, I, I'm glad that you're curious. I think hopefully people listening to this will be curious about what was it like for my children, but even what was it like for my parents to have to deal with me as a child.

Theresa [00:58:23]:
Joel.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:58:25]:
Right. You know, it's. We're, we're all. Anyway, I, I think how this relates to the, just to kind of wrap it up a little bit in all of these things, there's chaos, right? There's the energy of chaos, the tearing apart, the breaking down, the not coming together, the disharmony, the dysfunction. Right. And at the same time, there's also the opposite of the forum, the structure, the very fact that there is a relationship even to begin with, a family structure, a family unit to begin with. And the role of the other people, like you know, being grandparents, they're part of that, you know, and, you know, you were talking, I was thinking on the form side of the genogram and all the different therapeutic modalities that use genograms, which I have done and I love. So that's there as well.

Dr. Joel Bennett [00:59:29]:
So to help people navigate this conversation from the perspective of the radiant forces, understanding that there's always going to be chaos, understanding there's always going to be form, and there's always going to be the karmic, you know, after effects. You know, what actions did I take? You know, Mark earlier said, what choices, these decision points. Right. That you were talking about at those points in your journey. If I didn't make these decisions, would I have ended up here or here? You know, But I believe overall, though, there's also. There's always the conditions that love at the end, I believe, wins the day. Because none of this would happen without love. Right.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:00:15]:
We wouldn't be able to even have these conversations and navigate it without there being some coming together and recognizing that we're all growing and that we have to give everybody not only slack, you know, you know, I. I distinctly remember telling my dad on more than one occasion, would you give me some slack? Cut me some slack, you know? And so I just put it all together to say that that's. That's what relationship is. Navigating all of that together and not by oneself. It's in crazy. How can you navigate all that by yourself?

Theresa [01:00:56]:
Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't get very far.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:01:05]:
But I still think I can do it.

Theresa [01:01:09]:
Yes.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:01:11]:
Rugged individualism.

Theresa [01:01:20]:
Thank you, Joel. Yeah. Another great conversation with you. What?

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:01:30]:
I don't. I only had no idea that this is what we're going to talk about.

Theresa [01:01:33]:
Yeah, that's okay. It's good.

Walker [01:01:37]:
They just go where they go is what happens. Yeah. Like. Okay.

Theresa [01:01:45]:
Yeah. So did you have a nice time away.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:01:52]:
On the beach speaking about this? I am so grateful for my. My bride. And when you're alone together for many days without anybody else, it's almost like there's a. There. I just dissolve. It's completely dissolve. And it's like. It's.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:02:20]:
It's. It's something I. There's nothing I've ever experienced like that, you know, just like. Not just nothing, just dissolving. Just flowing and dissolving and no drama, you know?

Theresa [01:02:44]:
Yeah.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:02:45]:
Picking up glass on the shore. We have, like, probably 20 pounds of broken glass that we've collected over the years.

Walker [01:02:57]:
I love. Sea glass. That's fun.

Theresa [01:02:59]:
Yeah.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:03:00]:
Yeah. Colored glass. So. And we got a blue one. We got a blue one this time.

Theresa [01:03:08]:
Yay.

Walker [01:03:11]:
It's rare.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:03:18]:
Oh yeah, I'll send you a picture.

Walker [01:03:20]:
Sounds lovely. Good.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:03:22]:
Where'd you guys go in? You know, in Connoisseur of Time, I talk about the very first story is we always go to Crystal beach off of the coast of Galveston.

Theresa [01:03:34]:
Okay.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:03:35]:
Boulevard Peninsula. You take the ferry from Galveston to this peninsula and that's where we go.

Theresa [01:03:43]:
Oh, nice.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:03:45]:
Yeah, it was amazing because it's. It's like nobody ever knows about it. It's sort of like nowhere. And people like, why would you go there? And. And hurricanes, you know, people make this thing about hurricanes. These people get wiped out by hurricanes all the time and rebuild, you know, it's sort of like this whole other culture that's there, you know.

Theresa [01:04:12]:
Interesting. Wow. We will have to check it out.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:04:17]:
Nothing there. There's nothing.

Theresa [01:04:19]:
There's nothing there.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:04:20]:
Not much. No, not much.

Walker [01:04:22]:
That's the dissolving part, which is awesome.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:04:29]:
But thank you. And you want to share anything about your journeys? Anything you want to. You guys have done a lot in the past couple of months.

Theresa [01:04:37]:
Yeah, yeah, we have. Yeah. Well, I would say, I think we dissolved at Esalen. That was lovely. We sat in those cloth but hot spring bathtubs above the. Above the ocean.

Walker [01:04:52]:
The ocean, yeah.

Theresa [01:04:53]:
Several times a day, every day. And just in silence. I mean, just being. And it was. Dissolving. I like that word. And then Sedona. You want to share that?

Walker [01:05:07]:
It was. We did a detox cleanse. So it was, it was. What was it? It was great. And it was extremely challenging all at the same time. So would I do it again anytime soon? No.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:05:26]:
But you. However.

Walker [01:05:29]:
I think it, for me, just the series of those three vacations is. Is, I don't know, creating lots of change in mindset, which is great. I'm really thrilled. So it's.

Theresa [01:05:52]:
Yeah.

Walker [01:05:52]:
That was a challenge though. You know, the eating restrictions and all of it.

Theresa [01:05:58]:
Five hours of qigong every day starting at 6:30 in the morning. You know, all of that. But his 60 mile solo hike like Superior was.

Walker [01:06:08]:
That was crazy.

Theresa [01:06:09]:
Yeah.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:06:11]:
Where did you do that?

Walker [01:06:13]:
It's called the Superior Hiking Trail. It's on the north shore of Lake Superior. If you go to Duluth, it goes all the. From Duluth all the way up to Canada. I did 60 miles in the middle. I think it's total 246.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:06:27]:
Were you up there during the northern lights?

Walker [01:06:29]:
No.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:06:34]:
Just curious.

Walker [01:06:34]:
Beautiful.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:06:35]:
Yeah.

Walker [01:06:36]:
But boy, you know, I didn't prepare properly as far as carrying a pack, you know, to get used to that. And then it was just physically, mentally, emotionally challenging and lots of opportunity for growth. So. And there was. We did a podcast episode on it.

Theresa [01:06:56]:
Yeah.

Walker [01:06:57]:
Called Water Wolves and the Stardust Telephone.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:07:00]:
Yeah, I'll have to listen to that.

Walker [01:07:03]:
It's a good one.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:07:05]:
So. So that's amazing. Your own journey. Mark, I just. I want to acknowledge your. At this point in your life that you have, you're doing something that many people don't ever do. Right.

Walker [01:07:22]:
Yeah.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:07:23]:
They just go to the next stage. And so for some reason, I. And I'm curious if you know the answer. Why.

Walker [01:07:37]:
You know, when you were saying that, the rage against the dying of the light came to mind. But that's not my story. It's. It's. What I think is it's my time to bloom. I. I just do. It's a knowing thing when I say that, and there's been just a lot of denial, a lot of barrier, you know, tossing a lot of dissocia, disassociation, role.

Walker [01:08:10]:
You know, getting stuck in a role and. And not. Not having any purpose associated with it. You know, I did the lawyer thing, and this. What I see more. More and more clearly is the transition, you know, out of that. There's still parts of it that I enjoy, but doing these other things is opening up purpose. And the purpose that I'm finding, as I told you in a letter, is experiencing people and learning.

Walker [01:08:44]:
It's part of the, you know, the adventure for me. And so, like I said, getting wisdom from you and from everybody else is just. It's like finally something is. Is energizing me in a way that I never have been. And the other part, too, is it's. It's. It's a really nice growth period for our relationship, which I have always thought was good, but it's just better. And also being able to see the divergence, you know, we're together, but the.

Walker [01:09:24]:
It's okay to have, you know, your separate pieces, too. Anyway, your. The. Your work is part of that process just in, you know, because it took me some time to get. I don't think we process. Our brains don't process the same way it took me. I'm behind in. In that understanding, but I feel like I'm getting a lot better understanding, and it's helping me put it into perspective as.

Walker [01:09:54]:
As part of this growth.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:09:57]:
Can you say what that is? Can you say anything about what that understanding is?

Walker [01:10:02]:
Yeah, I mean, it's. I probably end up saying what I told you in the email mostly, but it's like recognizing that her nurturing, her need to teach and to nurture you know, I was separate from that because I'm like, why do you know, it's not my job to teach everybody has been something that I've said before out of reactivity, I think, you know, and I. When you first asked us, you know, you asked Teresa, why are you doing this, Walker, why are you doing this? And I said, because of her. You know, I want to support her. And I do want to support her. And I support her in, in I'm learning how to nurture and to teach. I'm also reminding her to nurture herself, you know, to. I don't know, we're helping each other move towards that.

Walker [01:11:02]:
That center is what I think, you know, and she's helping me to activate, you know, going down paths that I didn't anticipate. But also. And it's not in a. It's in an inviting way, not in a telling me what to do kind of way. There's a big difference between those two. And so that's. I'm getting lost, but there's a whole lot going on for me.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:11:31]:
No, I, I wanna, I'm glad, I'm glad that you go, go ahead. I interrupt. I'm good. So I want to highlight. This is so important because in the addictive process, there's a tendency to think it's either this way or that way. It's either black or white. It's either I'm right and you're wrong, or you're right and I'm wrong, or, you know, or you're the nurturer. I'm not going to do that.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:12:03]:
That's your thing. This is my thing.

Walker [01:12:06]:
Yeah.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:12:06]:
And that's, you know, but as we grow, it becomes a both end situation.

Walker [01:12:13]:
Right.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:12:14]:
And that's what I'm hearing is that it's not just happening in one area. You're able to see the dualities and have them dissolve, you know, and hold that space. So there's an honoring of the difference rather than a avoiding or hiding from it. And I want to just to highlight that because that is the basis for intimacy and it's not what we see in the world. Right. There's so much divisiveness. There's so much. Either you're either going to vote this person or you're going to vote that person.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:12:55]:
And the world, the world, people don't understand that the world is set up, the culture is set up to not invite, but to tell. Right. So I'm glad you're articulating your own growth, especially coming from being a lawyer, because that's where lawyers thrive in the world of telling and in the world of black and white.

Walker [01:13:20]:
Yes.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:13:21]:
It's a major change. It's something not to, you know, it's not to be taken lightly.

Walker [01:13:27]:
Agreed. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, it's recognizing the need for the opening or the innovating, you know, as something that has been there but has been blocked and now it's becoming unblocked. It just, like I said, just feels like the two ends are pulling together. And.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:13:56]:
Yeah, on the shores of gitchy. Go say that again with a helper.

Walker [01:14:05]:
I said I love her. That's the bottom line. And we're just. We're good, right? It's great in that. In that, you know, in that all kinds of senses, but that's part of it. So, anyway, I. Wax on.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:14:17]:
No, you know, that was great. It's.

Theresa [01:14:19]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Joel Bennett [01:14:21]:
Thank you.

Walker [01:14:22]:
Thank you, Joel.

Theresa [01:14:23]:
Thank you.

Walker [01:14:23]:
It's been a real pleasure.

Theresa [01:14:24]:
Yeah, always is. Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth, and we strive to be more compassionate every day.