The Gravity of the Soul and Echoes of the Spirit

Walker [00:00:04]:
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life. Each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path. Hello.

Theresa [00:00:31]:
Well, hello. Hello, Jonathan.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:00:35]:
Hello.

Theresa [00:00:37]:
It's really good to see you.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:00:38]:
Yeah, it's good to see both of you again. Thank you for having me.

Walker [00:00:41]:
Yes.

Theresa [00:00:42]:
Yeah, yeah. Thanks for taking this time. Yeah. So we are so excited to explore this with you. Just, you know, reviewing your information and having read some of your book and reading your emails as they come through. And one of these Thursdays, going to have the time to join your groups. Yeah. Because it looks so lovely.

Theresa [00:01:08]:
So. Yeah. Thank you.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:01:10]:
Oh, thank you.

Theresa [00:01:12]:
Yeah. So when you think about where you are in your life now and the journey that you've had in discovering more about yourself, how would you describe your inner knowing now? What does it feel like? How do you sense that you're in that space?

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:01:40]:
Well, you know, I. I knew it would be special to be interviewed by the two of you, and it's already clear because you have such a. That's a very powerful question, and that's worded in a very particular way because I would say that in my work. So I'm going to start out and then work in the work of, first of all understanding what inner knowing is, then understanding how to access it, then understanding the barriers and distortions that come up in relationship to it, then doing that work and then discovering there's a much deeper level of knowing behind all of that. It is a lot of what I think I do for people. However, I would say that to go to that deeper level is much harder than it seems. I think in my own work, I don't have the pleasure of getting that far as often as I'd like with people. I think they get scared.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:03:07]:
I think it gets too difficult in that place of clearing out all the distortions and distractions. And having said that, I think I've lived through the journey myself.

Theresa [00:03:21]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:03:21]:
And what I can share is that I am both a person who has always been connected to my inner knowing. Like, really. I mean, it's been a hallmark of my life that I have had a sense of calling, that I've had a sense of communion with the spiritual world, that I've felt the presence of whatever people want to call God or, I don't know, consciousness, the universe, you know, whatever that Magical or first thing is. And yet I have been astonished at how, even though all that is true, my own journey of understanding what my inner knowing is has continued to this very day. That even recently, I have come upon dimensions of my own inner knowing that I've neglected and that I have been, even as one who would proudly identify a relationship to inner knowing. That I have been blinded, distracted, and shadowed in so many ways.

Theresa [00:04:45]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:04:46]:
And as I uncovered the deeper dimensions of my inner knowing. Let's talk more about more recently. I've kind of been, like, shocked and how. And this might sound a little judgmental, but I don't think I experience it that way at just how easy it is for any of us, but how easy it was for me to. To not always honor it.

Theresa [00:05:18]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:05:19]:
To not always connect with it as fully as I could. So. So I'm going to go on a little bit longer because I think there was a question there that I haven't yet answered. So what did it take for me to come to this new place? And I think what it took is really important. I think there had to be a crisis of identity because I believe that identity is fundamentally the block to inner knowing. Like who we think we should be.

Theresa [00:05:55]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:05:56]:
Or who we're attached to, have becoming versus what's really there. So a kind of crisis of identity, shift of identity, breakdown, blow up, knock down, drag out. And then to commit to some really tough inner work. To be sure that the next iteration of identity not only didn't contain the old thinking, but the old wounding. And not that we're ever free of our wounding, but to move to a new place in relationship to it so that I would live more with the lessons of my wounding than the presence of my wounding. And. And in that process, I think inner knowing has been core to the healing work, which is to say that all the wounding was ultimately about disconnection from inner knowing and informative years that was internalized. I'm trying to say this, and I know you guys understand what I'm talking about, but if someone else is listening, I'm like, this guy's just rambling.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:07:33]:
And what is he even saying? But what I realize is that there's a. There's a paradox in the human condition that in our drive to be connected and loving and fulfilled, which I believe we all are innately built for, we accept certain beliefs, conditions and influences that may serve that temporarily, but then we become identified with them. And something that's meant to be a boat to cross the river becomes a burden that you drag through the desert.

Walker [00:08:19]:
Nice analogy.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:08:21]:
Yeah. And there's that. There's an old Buddhist teaching about that. I don't know if you know that one where, you know, the two, two monks, an elder monk teaching a younger monk, you know, the, the mentor and the apprentice are on a pilgrimage of sorts, you know, to a community. Whatever it is, doesn't matter. They're on a long journey and they come to a, a river that's too deep and wide to cross on foot. And, and their mission's important and they can't turn back. So they decide to be resourceful and they, they, they spend a whole day gathering wood and building a kind of raft and pole system.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:08:56]:
And, and it's kind of remarkable what they're able to accomplish. You know, they go to sleep, they wake up, the raft's ready, little quieter in the morning, and off they go across. And actually, it sounds like another Buddhist story, but anyway, they cross the river and of course the, the senior monk, you know, dust, you know, dust himself off and grabs his satchel or her satchel and continues and looks back to find the, the young monk, like pulling the raft up onto the shore, like really, really far. And the senior monk goes back and says, like, what are you doing? As the young monk is now, like, trying to portage, like, carry this raft on his head. And, and the, the, the older monk is like, you're. Where are you going with this? Well, we might need it again. There might be another river. And, and the older monk says, well then, well, I guess we'll just build another raft.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:09:56]:
If you bury this, we may not, we may not get anywhere. And, and so, so, you know, that was an illustration for people listening. But to go back to my own story and I'll, I'll stop talking. Eventually I came to realize just how many coping mechanisms I had internalized as identity to the point where I couldn't see they were coping mechanisms. I simply lived with them as though they were just a part of life. And I think for most of us, tragically, it's not until we can just kind of really give up everything that we can see anything really clearly and then sort of pick up what we need. Or I would say the deeper work is not even begin a furious process of new identity construction. Instead, to live in daily relationship with inner knowing and to allow it to kind of co.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:11:03]:
Create the day one day at a time. So that's where I'm at with my journey of inner knowing right now, which is in a very new, exciting place. And I would just Wrap up by saying that in that more present moment, daily arising approach to inner knowing, what I'm finding is that my inner knowing is actually not so much mine at all. That in this journey of listening and seeking guidance and direction and knowing from within, when we are truly surrendered, or at least when I'm truly surrendered, I find the guidance I'm getting isn't. It's not even my soul. I mean, it's that. But it's more. I find the presence of all kinds of knowing, knowing on the earth and knowing in the spirit world and, and, and a kind of living wisdom that is present in the essence of life.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:12:14]:
And I don't need to control as much. I don't need to figure as much out. I'm not in charge of anything. It's hard, it's hard work to get there, but it's quite a. It's quite a fun place to be.

Theresa [00:12:29]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:12:30]:
So there you go. Should I, should I hang up now?

Theresa [00:12:37]:
That's what I was thinking. What else are we going to talk about, Jon?

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:12:39]:
He's like, well, that's a lot. Well, he just talked as much as most guests in the first 20 minutes yet.

Walker [00:12:47]:
Oh, you've got a lot to teach.

Theresa [00:12:49]:
Yes, you do.

Walker [00:12:50]:
You know, we didn't do a full intro. We usually have that. But I mean, your experience, your life experiences, to me, astounding. And I know we're going to come back to some things, but I, I just. One of the things that you said was I have always been aware of my inner knowing and I know that that's, you know, as you just described, it comes in and comes out sometimes, depending on coping mechanisms that we've adopted or whatever, other things get in the way. But I, you know, I'm interested when it is, you know, you first can identify being in touch with that sense of I have an inner knowing because in my experience that didn't happen until I was 46.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:13:45]:
Yeah. I mean, so again, I'll give a, an outside perspective first and then directly answer the question. I do want to say because often when I share or when I talk about how I've always been connected. Right. A lot of people idealize that. And I do want to say it hasn't actually always been as good for me as you'd think. And what I mean by that is there's a way that I have taken it for granted because it started so young. There's a distortion that I've experienced in my life in just honestly not knowing what every, what most people are experiencing.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:14:39]:
People who wake up at 40 or 30 or 50 or 70. And I would say there is a huge advantage. This is really important for people to hear. There's a huge advantage to suddenly waking up later in life. And most people I talk to who are on the journey of healing or spiritual awakening will say, oh, I wish I knew this stuff earlier. Oh my gosh, I can't believe. Did you always know this stuff? And I say, like, don't even go there. Don't waste any time judging your journey because when it shows up later in life, whatever that means, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, there's an appreciation for it.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:15:27]:
That's different. Yeah, there is a protectiveness about it. That's different. There is a respect for it. That's different. And, you know, so for me, the first time that comes to mind quite vividly was when I was six. I remember being six. Six.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:15:51]:
My daughter, as we record this is seven. I can't even imagine. I was sick. I remember having a certain kind of obsession with certain animals and images and words. In my room, they were storing some encyclopedias that used to be my brothers, I guess, or my family's. So were these encyclopedias of wildlife. And then there was the Encyclopedia Britannica, which hopefully somebody remembers listening to this.

Theresa [00:16:21]:
That would be me, Jonathan. I was an encyclopedia reader myself as a child.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:16:28]:
And I remember it was brief, but it's. I can, I can see it in my mind's eye right now. It was brief. I remember having a moment of sensing that my attraction to these things meant something. So it wasn't like, oh, I love ponies. It was a moment of like, I think I love ponies for a reason. I think I'm remembering something. I think this is a key, like coming upon the first clue in a treasure hunt.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:17:03]:
And then. And that my whole life has felt like that. Like I'm just getting like Indiana Jones. I mean, these pieces of this puzzle that are going to help me to solve something and it's. It's kind of happening, actually. And then when I was about 10, I had a very distinct experience and I think, think I write about it in my book, which I always promote spiritual experience. I grew up in a place where there's a lot of wilderness and, you know, I'm old enough that it was. I was of a generation where parents let their kids go do things in the wild without a phone to call home.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:17:48]:
And I got in a little tin boat. We had like a 9 horsepower tin fishing boat. I went off to an island. This is in Northwestern Ontario and, you know, parked it. And I used to get out and just go wander the woods, see, follow deer trails and bear tracks and stuff. And I didn't. Didn't really think of any of those things as dangerous. But I remember I walked into this cedar grove again, vivid.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:18:14]:
Like I can see it and feel it right now. And I remember feeling a distinct transition from a poplar grove or what some people maybe would call cottonwood or aspen. But one grove of trees, I moved into the other and I. And I stopped. And what I noticed, like, palpably, viscerally, was that the energy, not just the appearance, but the energy of this was different than the energy of that. Different like hot versus cold, like day versus night. Not different like blue versus green. I mean, different.

Theresa [00:18:50]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:18:51]:
And I remember stopping and being quiet and listening and paying attention to my feelings and realizing that I could feel a presence, almost like a sense that there was energy between things and energy within things. It was almost visible. Almost visible. And I would say that was one of my earlier. Those two stories are like some of my earlier moments of feeling like there is something deeper in me connecting with something deeper in the world. And this is real.

Theresa [00:19:34]:
Yeah.

Walker [00:19:36]:
When. When you're standing in that poplar growth and having this recognition, can you describe for us how you felt it or sensed it?

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:19:48]:
What an interesting question. So there was something visceral, like I'm closing my eyes to kind of go there, because it's that vivid. I could. I. I can still. I can see it clearly. There's something visceral, almost like swimming through water and then swimming through oil. Like the.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:20:14]:
The quality of the environment density changed. So there was that. I do feel like. And this is not as true for me now for many years, there was a kind of subtle visual that I think I used to have. And maybe, you know, I think we can all relate to these things in some moments and some of us even more.

Theresa [00:20:42]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:20:43]:
Almost like I felt like I could see it, but I couldn't describe what I was seeing because it wasn't exactly a difference of light, but it was something like a difference of lighting somehow. And then the other thing that's really important and connects with the inner knowing question is there was a kind of. The word that pops into mind is animism. There was a kind of living spirit that felt present. In other words, something I could communicate with. And that was a part of the feeling, too. Not just, oh, this is a different energy, but it was almost. See, I didn't even realize this, actually, until this Year it was if maybe I was born in a different culture or I had a different kind of conditioning, I might have said I encountered the spirit of that forest.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:22:01]:
See, at the time it was more like energy and connection and feeling and intelligence and some kind of personality there. I didn't really have the language, but now I'm like, oh, that's. That kind of. That language makes sense. It was like feeling the spirit of the place and spirit meaning like a person, an intelligence, a feeling, a presence. And it could be talked to or learned from.

Theresa [00:22:38]:
Yeah. Wow, that's.

Walker [00:22:40]:
Yeah.

Theresa [00:22:41]:
Thank you.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:22:43]:
Yeah, that's an interesting question. Well, and maybe I'll add something. I. My whole life, this is. I've never. I don't even think I've shared this in any interview yet. My whole life I struggled to claim that relationship with the spirit of things because my western, even though I. I have spent most of my life immersed in indigenous communities, precisely because that's where I feel more at home, because that's their language and I have family and an extend a community that I am a part of.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:23:27]:
But what I never was able to do well was really translate one. It was like I was one person in one place and another person in another. A certain amount of dissonance. And when been in western settings, and I did tons of spiritual work in western settings, I found myself westernizing my conversation and even my own relationship to it. So instead of really saying oh yeah, I. I talk to the spirit of the place or oh yeah, I see the spirit of the bear or whatever it is, you know, I would just layer all this kind of psychological subtle energy, you know, quasi physics stuff to make it palatable for others and maybe for me too. And now I'm like, oh no, I was just a full on whack job and couldn't accept it. But now I do.

Theresa [00:24:32]:
It's great. Yeah, yeah, I can. That resonates with me for sure. Just in regards to being, you know, careful or thoughtful in my languaging, depending on, you know, the audience. I don't know that I. I mean, I think with Walker for sure, I don't feel like I have to change my language, you know, or alter my experience. But I am aware sometimes that there are things that I experience or have experienced that I haven't shared with him. And then he'll be like, whoa, I don't think you have ever shared that with me.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:25:23]:
Yeah, well, let me jump in. I absolutely believe in spiritual intelligence, which we can talk about if you want. I absolutely believe in spiritual gifts. And I absolutely believe that we all have both.

Theresa [00:25:36]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:25:38]:
But our conditioning, our context, our wounding, our sense of permission really shapes what we feel comfortable embracing and then we feel comfortable sharing it with. Now you have a beautiful gift, the two of you, because even if there's some things you haven't shared, I think you exist in a relationship in which you ultimately sense, day by day, that there's nothing you couldn't share if you really needed to or wanted to. There's a loving permission between the two of you. Anyone who listens to your shows should know that by now. But for people listening, I'd say a huge majority of people feel that they live alone if they're gifts, spiritual knowing. And to them, I would say you, you've got to find some community that doesn't even mean a religious group.

Theresa [00:26:33]:
Right.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:26:34]:
You know, go take a weekend workshop in energy medicine or an introduction to Celtic Shamanism or. Right, whatever. Like, you know, I'm just making something random up. But go where you can feel validated and affirmed. Because the gravity of our cultural consciousness and energy will always pull our identity if our soul connection isn't strong enough.

Theresa [00:27:08]:
Yeah, yeah.

Walker [00:27:10]:
Would you say that again? It's a really important point.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:27:14]:
Yeah. Well, I think it is actually the gravity of our cultural or contextual environment, meaning its energy, its consciousness will always pull and distort our identity if we do not have enough soul connection. In other words, the soul itself is a kind of gravitational force. And when you do enough healing work, no one's perfect. When you have enough self awareness and knowing, there is a kind of magnetism or gravity. It's very difficult to live an inauthentic life. The bigger that force inside grows, however, there is a tremendous force ever present around us, which is gravity of belonging, the gravity of acceptance. And I would even argue, somewhat metaphysically, that there is just an energetic vibration in every group and place and culture.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:28:20]:
And because human beings are resonant by nature like a musical instrument, Right. You go in guitar store and you pluck the C string. All the C strings vibrate similar way.

Theresa [00:28:35]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:28:36]:
It's hard to be immersed in a. In a context or a culture long enough without it having some known or none unknown influence on you. So being really grounded in our inner knowing is critical because it's a part of how we stay resilient and authentic in the face of environments that may not ultimately reflect who we are.

Theresa [00:29:01]:
Mm.

Walker [00:29:06]:
It's interesting. When you first made that statement, it was just. And then you said it again. There's like an emotional response in me to that, and it's probably because I feel, you know, pulled away. So I'm in that process of, you know, practicing what you're talking about.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:29:27]:
Yeah, well.

Walker [00:29:28]:
And I think it just really touched me.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:29:30]:
Oh, I appreciate. I appreciate that. And it's. I don't think it's easy work, and I think there's a lot of grief there.

Theresa [00:29:38]:
Yeah.

Walker [00:29:39]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:29:39]:
I think that maybe what you feel. I know that's what I have felt so much. Not that any part of the path was wrong or that we would change. It is what it is. The soul is what it needs to become ready for where it is. But I think there is a deep. I think there's a deep need, there's a deep grief in the world for what we've lost. And.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:30:06]:
And interestingly, I think. I think it's growing exponentially because, I mean, the rates of anxiety and depression are going up. And I would argue at the heart of it all is grief. Grief for a whole life. And a whole life means that we are. We are not one dimensional. We are not just our screens.

Theresa [00:30:31]:
Right.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:30:32]:
Are not just our social identity. We are, you know, tasting, touching, smelling, praying, dreaming. You know, we are complex, complex creatures. And when we do not engage our complexity, it's not just bad for our health, which turns out it is.

Theresa [00:30:54]:
Yes.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:30:55]:
But we. We lose some of ourselves and we grieve that. We don't know it, but we grieve that.

Walker [00:31:06]:
Yeah.

Theresa [00:31:07]:
Jonathan, you know, what's coming to mind is you're sharing. I mean, I know that when we're allowing those parts of our story to go. The grieving piece resonates with me too. I mean, there were many times where I was like, I need to. I need to focus more energy on some creation right now because this grief process is so overwhelming. Releasing. I. I can't.

Theresa [00:31:40]:
I can't be so focused on releasing all the story that there's nothing to replace it. Right. You know, so when you think about that process for you, what. What's some of the story that you've left behind?

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:32:02]:
Well, that's deep. Well, so I don't want to. You know, it's not. It's not conventionally acceptable to take a long time to come up with an answer in an interview because nobody take as much time.

Theresa [00:32:20]:
You're good. Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:32:21]:
What are some of the stories that I've left behind? Well, a lot of it is about my assumptions about what other people think, feel, or need from me. And so I think a big part of the story that I've worked to release is just anything that presumes, that just assumes or presumes what anybody thinks, feels or needs from me. Because the simple truth is I don't have a clue.

Theresa [00:33:04]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:33:05]:
The second thing is, even if I did, it doesn't matter. Like it really doesn't matter. I've got to be with people and do with people as my authenticity, mindfully responds to them. But habitual reactions triggered reactions. Praise and blame, wound and healing. All those transition transactional styles of, of thinking and responding. Just gotta go. Just gotta go.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:33:47]:
And I think there was also a story around. I mean, if I'm really honest and open, I would say there was definitely for me personally, a story around worthiness and being enough and, and the truth is I'll never be enough for anybody and I'm always enough. Right. For me, the movement was to, to, to shift deeper in my life to the consciousness in which the like. While duality is always necessary in some way. And I don't know if this is even really accurate language, but I'd say polarity is, is not in the sense that I would say all things have facets again. And a yang a day has a yin and a yang. An apple has a yin and a yang.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:34:50]:
A person has a yin and a yang, meaning a dimensionality. Sort of what we might call feminine and masculine, broadly speaking. But the kind of, the kind of gameplay of trying to be enough for people trying to know what they want, trying to meet those needs, judging my worth based on those things. I mean, I thought that I'd lived beyond that, but no, I found a whole, you know, almost like renovating a house. Like, oh, we've done the main floor. What about the basement? There's a basement, you know, like, oh, crap. Then I went downstairs and was like, I'll turn on the light. It was like, who.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:35:38]:
Who's living down here? But for people, you know, for people listening, the reason why this, this deep introspection matters. There is no part of the house that you are doesn't shape your experience every day. So just because you've covered everything you can see in the conscious world, it doesn't mean you don't have some deeper work in the subconscious world.

Theresa [00:36:05]:
Yes.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:36:05]:
So I think that that was a big part of the, the story that I left behind. And I'm going to add something actually that's just really out there. I've also never shared this in an interview, but I'm, I'm just, you know, I know you guys. So now it's like, look, because you can sell kinds of weird.

Walker [00:36:25]:
Thank you. Yeah.

Theresa [00:36:27]:
Good, good.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:36:28]:
So in my worldview, I believe in past lives. And, and, and for those people who don't believe in past lives, then I would say. Well, I don't know if it matters. I definitely believe that there's a mythical dimension to who we are in which we can think about ourselves in. In terms like past lives, in terms like archetypes. Whether it's literally, verifiably, metaphysically and scientifically true. Oh, I don't know. I don't know, like, what is.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:37:09]:
Nothing's really true. But in my world, I operate with that sort of language and framework. And I will say that I. So I'm going to say the woo thing first, and then I'll make it a little more practical, I think. I also had lived with the memory of a tremendous amount of pain and shame around spiritual gifts. And, you know, I'm not going to go far down this road, but almost like remembering being a witch at a witch trial, remembering being, you know, the shaman when the Romans came. Remembering, you know, and it's, It's. It's very emotional for me.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:38:00]:
I. It feels very real. And, and, and what. The feeling is that there are many times in those lives where I felt quite literally punished and persecuted for being what I was. Now, let's just take a couple steps with that. For people who are not quite there in terms of this guy, really, you know, shaman. And the Romans came. What's significant is it's symbolic of a fear that I carried into this life or that I think many people have in this life, which is, if I'm my true self, I will be punished or rejected.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:38:45]:
And we look at people claiming gender differences, people claiming lifestyle differences, people claiming, oh, my gosh, any number of things. Musical gifts, spiritual gifts, artistic gifts. There's just. We live in a fair in the West, a fairly kind of narrow world where so many things have become other. Now, the time we're recording this, it's 2024. There's a heck of a lot of pushback now and, you know, you name it. Lifestyles, genders, relationships, politics. Those that have been pushed to the margins are coming back in, thank God.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:39:35]:
But the point for people listening is to say, however you explain the backstory, I think what it boils down for a lot of us is the fear. Well, it's a fear of not fitting in.

Theresa [00:39:51]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:39:53]:
And, you know, I just don't think anybody fits in.

Theresa [00:39:56]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:39:58]:
If there's a model that everyone fits into, that's not a real Thing.

Theresa [00:40:04]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:40:05]:
You know, like anything that everyone can agree to, it's probably something to be careful about.

Theresa [00:40:12]:
Right, right.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:40:14]:
You know, I mean, there might be exceptions like love and what, you know, what do we mean? So, so, so just to conclude that thought, what I would, what I would wish for people is a deep embrace of the importance of, of diversity in this world and the real importance of your authenticity. Because the only way the world will get your piece of the puzzle is if you live your piece of the puzzle. And if you're busy living your neighbor's piece or your boss's piece or your parents piece, you're going to end up with two of the same pieces in a puzzle where there is only room for one of those pieces. Right. And then you'll feel lost.

Theresa [00:41:06]:
Love that. Yeah. Yeah. That's really nice. Jonathan, would you share. You'd mentioned spiritual intelligence and spiritual gifts earlier. Would you share a little bit more about that?

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:41:21]:
Yeah, I love. I would love to. So. So, you know, we've come to this place in, in human understanding where we've, we've really been able to accept and codify and clarify intelligence, conventional iq. And to measure iq, which is presumed to be something everybody has a function of having cognitive ability or, or intellect, there's then categories. So you do an IQ test and there's like the puzzle section and then there's the problem solving section and so on. And people can score high or low. Even if you score unbearably low, you still have an iq.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:42:04]:
Right. In the same way we have discovered there's such a thing as an eq, emotional intelligence. And there are certain criteria that have been developed for that. You know, it's a particular system, but it works. You know, there's five key criteria, and you can be high on those or low on those. So that could be evaluated. But again, we're talking about inborn human traits or capacities that can be in varying degrees in each person aptitudes. To create another analogy, just to kind of set it up, to make it really clear.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:42:41]:
I don't think spiritual intelligence is a matter of belief. So you're not spiritually intelligent because you believe in spirituality? I believe everyone listens. Has a spiritual intelligence just as they have an emotional intelligence and an. And an iq. And to say, well, this whole thing's got too spiritual for me and I'm not spiritual. That's kind of like walking by the gym and saying, I'm not physical. You're walking by the gym, you're physical. I can see your reflection in the Mirror and you're off to get coffee and a donut.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:43:18]:
You're physical. What you mean to say is you're not interested in physical health, you're not interested in physical topics. Okay, that's fine. You may not be interested in spiritual intelligence, but you have a spiritual intelligence. So broadly, it is very much about your relationship to the deeper questions of life, meaning, energy and so on. The big picture, your relationship to that which might be called spirit. But I think it's more useful to think of the core qualities of spiritual intelligence. And I believe they, they are expressed through the four sort of core dimensions of human experience.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:44:02]:
The mental, emotional, physical and spiritual. So the mental dimension of spiritual intelligence is intuition, our innate ability to know without knowing. And that goes everywhere from the hunch to the dreams that come true, to communicating with guides to seeing things that other people can't see. It's that whole perceptive capacity. Whether we develop it or not, intuition is a part of every human experience. Then we go to the physical expression of spiritual intelligence, and that is energy awareness, the ability to sense energy, which of course is closely connected to intuition. But intuition usually has a kind of knowledge like dimension to it, whereas energy usually has more of a sensing dimension to it. Both can inform us like, ooh, I don't like the energy here, or I don't like the energy in him or her, or I just like this place because it's got good energy.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:45:17]:
It doesn't always have explicit knowledge, but it does have a way of informing us that's really, really important to pay attention to. Of course, to study that more deeply, we could, we could actually look at studying energy medicine or learning about subtle energy. There's so many systems out there, from Chinese medicine to, you know, acupuncture to Reiki to, I don't know, so many energy healing techniques, quantum touch therapeutic touch healing touch reconnection therapy. I mean, if people want, they can just look up subtle energy therapies and you'll find all kinds of stuff. Yeah, so we have intuition, we have sensing energy, then we have connectedness. Connectedness is the emotional dimension of spiritual intelligence. And that is our innate sense of connection or relationality to the beings of the world around us. To the world around us.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:46:22]:
Some of us are born really connected. You know, there's just friendly kids on the playground that do not have that innate fear of strangers, and they see everyone as a friend. And then there's others that need to grow that capacity. For some of us to feel connected, all we need is just to get quiet or just to slow down and then it's just there in the airport, grocery store, whatever. And for others, it's a. It's a little more work. And then the final piece, the spiritual piece of spiritual intelligence is what I would call surrender, the capacity to surrender. So all of these are capacities or qualities.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:47:06]:
Surrender could also be called faith, ability to trust life. It could also be called letting go. But it's. It's that innate sense or ability to understand that control is, is very relative. Control is very limited. And that, that we are a part of an existence that is. You know, the word, the wording is complicated because it all implies something. But we're a part of a world that is.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:47:44]:
Is wise. We're part of a world that is. That has a design. You know, people wouldn't be able to listen to us if there wasn't a repeating pattern that allowed us to build computers and utilize energy and light to send messages around the world. Yeah, that same wisdom, that same design or pattern, it's present in our psychology, it's present in our mythology, it's present in our spirituality. So there, there we can. There is such a thing as more or less aligned with the nature of things. That's the heart of Taoism, really.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:48:25]:
So, so that's. So spiritual intelligence, in a nutshell is, you know, the coalescence of these four qualities which we can study and grow or ignore. But I would argue that if you got, if they, if you had no other path or practice than cultivating these four things, I think you'll do just fine. Right. I mean, what else do people need to do except learn to listen, to open their hearts to connection and to trust in life? It's a pretty good way to go.

Theresa [00:49:08]:
Yeah, it is.

Walker [00:49:11]:
Yeah.

Theresa [00:49:12]:
When you were sharing about, you know, people Googling subtle energy therapies and they're going to find all kinds of things. What are some other things, Jonathan, that come to mind that people could Google if they're looking at exploring these four aspects? What comes to mind for you?

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:49:35]:
Oh, okay. I don't know. So. So interestingly, I would say there is a substantial body of knowledge and practice around each of them. And I think people will find. Probably find it surprising that if they sat down with a search engine of their choice.

Theresa [00:49:57]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:49:58]:
And you just put in like, try it as an exercise. Take an hour and spend 15 minutes, put in the word intuition. In fact, better yet, put in intuition exercises. Okay. Practices, intuition instruction. And what's going to show up thousands of teachers, videos sites, and it'll be everything from you know, buying these kinds of oracle decks where we use the symbolic imagery on cards to access our intuition, to classes and psychic abilities, to, you know, people who are intuitives teaching other people how to read the body or, or dream. So there's a whole world.

Theresa [00:50:47]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:50:49]:
Behind intuition. And I would say great, go to, go to the intuition experts then for energy. Same thing. But I would, I would look up, so people are really, we're talking practical stuff. Look up subtle energy.

Theresa [00:51:04]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:51:05]:
Or energy medicine or energy healing techniques or energy practices. And again you'll find an explosion of teachers who are gifted at just that. And I'll teach you how to activate your energy. Rubbing your hands and then putting, you know, those channels of, of power on your body for self care.

Theresa [00:51:36]:
Yes.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:51:36]:
You'll find teachers and authors you like. And I'm, and, and I want to, when I finish going through these because I'm gonna try to accelerate through the last two. There's something important. Don't let me forget. I want to tell people when they're looking for resources.

Theresa [00:51:48]:
Okay, sure.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:51:49]:
So connectedness, what I would probably look up there is not connectedness.

Theresa [00:51:54]:
Okay.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:51:58]:
You're looking up more things like love as a practice, compassion practices. It's really about relationality. So, and, and, and sure, emotional intelligence would have influenced this one. So you can even look up emotional intelligence. But if I were to be searching, I'd be searching. Cultivating connection, transforming relationships, how to connect with others, feeling connection. You got to add descriptive words. And again, lots of great work.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:52:46]:
Now interestingly, I think some of the most juicy work that people will find when they research is when they look up, quote, the power of surrender, why surrender matters. And of course, you know, and I didn't give authors names for all of these because I wanted to be careful about that. But I will say teachers like Brene Brown, Michael Singer, you know, Byron, Katie, there's a lot of teachers, I mean every East Indian guru, most Buddhist teachers, I mean they're all in the surrender category. Non attachment, let go, trust life. That's the goal for, for a lot of them. So you could look that up. But the thing I wanted to come back to is what's important when people are looking for resources is check the credibility and trust your intuition. If those two things are in place, I'd say just pick whatever, don't overthink it.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:53:46]:
However, don't just go with your intuition. I like people to always check the credibility. And the reason why I say that is because in today's world it is too easy for people with little knowledge or experience to brand and market something that feels good, maybe great at creating a feeling that you do genuinely resonate with, but then the material behind it. I mean, with all due respect, it's just, it's not as much as what you could find. Let's just. But conversely, I also don't believe in just going with the expert because if someone says, oh, well, you got to really listen to so and so, but something about so and so rubs you the wrong way or reminds you of your third grade math teacher who you hated or whatever it was. Like, that's silly. Don't, don't do that to yourself.

Theresa [00:54:42]:
Right, Right.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:54:43]:
Resonance matters. Intuition matters. But, but we need to ask more of our, of our self help, personal growth, spirituality, psychology teachers today. It can't just be that they look good and they sound good. Sometimes that is good.

Theresa [00:55:02]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:55:02]:
But not always. Now, is that wrong that they follow that person? Well, because people will say, well, if I get something out of it, does it matter? It can. Yeah, it can. Because if you have someone whose consciousness is pretty much the same as yours or whose knowledge of change or even experience of change is less than yours, what they might be doing is just feeding you candy. So no calories, no nutrition. It's nice to read what they write because it affirms the way you already think. But I don't know, anyone who keeps you comfortable all the time is probably not helping you to grow.

Theresa [00:55:46]:
Right? Right. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, I agree. Always for me, looking for people who are teaching curiosity really encouraging us to ask questions, to be willing to be uncomfortable, to see outside, you know, our story, to consider others stories. Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:56:18]:
Yeah. There's an interesting teaching right there, which is there's a difference between feeling safe and feeling comfortable. Comfortable.

Theresa [00:56:25]:
Yes. Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:56:27]:
You know, I'm not always good at this with my kids. I often try to make them feel both.

Theresa [00:56:33]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:56:34]:
But in my better moments, I ensure their safety and push their comfort zone.

Theresa [00:56:39]:
Yes.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:56:40]:
You know, so you talk line when they're learning to climb or put the helmet on or whatever. But then let's, let's push the limit. You haven't done it before. Let's do it. And I. And to tip anyone listening again, I would say that's a great quality in whoever you follow. It's okay if you enjoy it a lot of the time. It's okay if it comforts you a lot of time.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:57:04]:
But all the time. Yeah, I don't know.

Theresa [00:57:09]:
Yeah, I agree. I agree. As a mental health professional, I mean, I tell my clients, sometimes you're really not going to like me very much when you leave here today. Yeah, yeah.

Walker [00:57:23]:
If they leave saying Theresa's full of. They're probably on to something.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:57:28]:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I mean, this is a great topic which both of you, I know. Know a lot about, but we've, we've come to a place in our western culture where there's so much fear of emotion.

Theresa [00:57:44]:
Yeah.

Walker [00:57:44]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:57:45]:
So much fear of emotional discomfort. As though it means anything.

Theresa [00:57:49]:
Right.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:57:50]:
It. It doesn't. I mean, it does in the sense that if you feel a strong emotion about something, there's something to get curious about.

Theresa [00:57:58]:
Right, exactly.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:58:00]:
It's telling you there's something here. There's a place in your life where you're not yet free, or there's a place in your life where there's some learning or there's a place in your life that perhaps you need to bring some awareness and acceptance. But whatever that emotion is in itself.

Theresa [00:58:18]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:58:19]:
Is insubstantial. So just because I feel anger about something, let's figure out what the story is in relationship to the something. I don't need to act angry or make angry decisions because of it.

Theresa [00:58:33]:
Right.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:58:36]:
Yeah. Maybe I can just leave it there. But I would say getting comfortable with the richness of our emotions and being able to observe them is a big part of accessing our inner knowing and, and, and finding strength and growth on the path.

Theresa [00:58:54]:
Agreed.

Walker [00:58:56]:
And by the way, I don't think you're full of emphatically. I could turn everybody against me if I think I'm three. It's an example of when I have that resistance to. You don't know what you're talking about is usually when I, you know, get out of the emotional piece of it. I'm like, you know that. Well, yeah, she does actually. And I use that as a guidance in a lot of things in, in life. You know, it's just, it's good for me because I still have, you know, especially with what I do as a travel attorney.

Walker [00:59:29]:
There's a judgment piece that goes along with my everyday work and, and also where I am on the spectrum of growth. You know, just recognize when I'm getting judgy. It's time to start looking really close anyway.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [00:59:45]:
Yeah. Very good, Very good. Actually, I have a little model that I like to share with people, which is you, you know, you're in a fear based model. When the mind goes to judgment, behavior goes to control, emotions go to attachment. That means that what you've placed at the center of your identity in the moment Is, is fear and protection. Right. It's a, it's a, it's a safety model. That's not the healthy kind of safety that we need.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [01:00:25]:
It's a, it's a fear based model. So the mind goes to judgment, the body, meaning our activities, go to control. And the emotional relationship to it all is attachment. And what that sounds like or looks like is it has to be that way or else. Or what's wrong with them? It's wrong. Right. There's this blaming, victimy kind of language. And the reason why I share that because you, you, I mean you brought this up so clearly is when you hear yourself judging or feel yourself clinging or observe yourself controlling, stop and step back.

Theresa [01:01:14]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [01:01:14]:
Doesn't mean it's necessarily wrong. Sometimes we do need to do those things, but conscientiously.

Theresa [01:01:21]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [01:01:22]:
With choice, with love, with purpose, with intention.

Theresa [01:01:25]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [01:01:26]:
Unconscious. Then it's running you and you're not really running it.

Theresa [01:01:33]:
Yeah. The wording that I used, that I use and I don't remember Jonathan, where it started or came from, but I started telling myself, if you feel compelled to say something or do something, don't. Right. Like if the energy is like, don't because there's something there for me to look at. So yeah, that's my languaging is if I feel compelled.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [01:02:08]:
Yeah, that's great, that's great. Well, and what you're pointing to in this really subtle way is you're helping. Just. There's a nuance baked in there which we don't need to pick apart. But for people listening or watching, like break it down and check, check it, check out the language if you feel compelled. So you're over here. Compel is over here. The, the, the statement sets up the reality that you are not your feelings, you are not the compulsion.

Theresa [01:02:52]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [01:02:52]:
And I think that's where people often lose it. Right. It's not just they don't have the space between the compulsion and, and the identity is jump in and they. I am angry, I am hurt, I am sad. And it's like, well, not to be overly annoying about it, but you know, you're feeling, and you're feeling sad, but you are actually a beautiful awareness that is observing all of it. And you that I'm talking to, this magical awareness has been there your whole life and that you has been in the body of a child and that you has been in the body of a teenager and that you has traveled and that you had a broken bone, but that you was never really any of those things.

Theresa [01:03:41]:
Right.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [01:03:42]:
You know, and that is a common spiritual teaching that's profoundly healing for people to realize. We are more than anything that's been done to us. We are more than anything that's happened to us. We are shaped by our losses, but we are not our losses. We are shaped by our hurts, but we are not our hurts. There is something deeper in all of us that is inextinguishable and unbreakable. Shifting your identity to that place now, that is a beautiful way to live.

Theresa [01:04:26]:
Agreed. Oh, Jonathan, we could talk for hours.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [01:04:30]:
I know.

Theresa [01:04:32]:
And it just goes by so fast.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [01:04:35]:
Yeah. So, well, I'm very honored to sit with you and. And if people don't know, and I. I don't mean this too much like promotion, but I had the pleasure of interviewing the two of you, and then you did more of the talking. I got to listen. So I feel, you know, a little bit humble and. And embarrassed to talk so much because the two of you have so much, so much that you teach, you know, in all of your work and your shows and. And whenever.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [01:05:06]:
Now I can say whenever I'm with you, but it's been an honor to be able to ramble a little bit.

Theresa [01:05:11]:
Oh, we feel the same.

Walker [01:05:13]:
Yeah. Thank you so much.

Theresa [01:05:14]:
Yeah. Yeah. And look forward to the next opportunity to talk more. Yeah. So.

Walker [01:05:21]:
So before we close, though, if our listeners or the viewers would like to, you know, get in touch with you. Oh, look at some of your offerings. How do they do that?

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [01:05:31]:
Yeah, I forget the promotional part.

Theresa [01:05:34]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [01:05:35]:
For people to check out what I'm up to. The simplest way is probably go to my website, which is my name, jonathanellerby.com and you can probably spell it wrong and still find it. And then I would suggest just getting on the newsletter. Then. What I try to do, I send a weekly newsletter. There's not a lot of sales. Almost never. It's usually some kind of an interview or an article or a video, some content, and then an invitation to a weekly live gathering.

Theresa [01:06:06]:
Yes.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [01:06:07]:
And if there's other way, you know, other things going on, a new book or a workshop, I'll probably promote that. But that's a great way to do it. I'm not amazing at social media just yet, but I am on TikTok.

Theresa [01:06:20]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [01:06:21]:
Vigorously. And I am on Instagram, less vigorously, but growing. Yeah, I guess that's. That's enough.

Theresa [01:06:30]:
Thank you.

Walker [01:06:31]:
Yes, thank you. And I hope that they take advantage of everything you have to offer the world, because we just find you lovely. And it's. You know, when going through your website. It's just tremendous. So thank you for the work you are doing.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [01:06:46]:
Yeah, thank you. And I. I guess I'd be remiss if I didn't say, you know, go and get a book.

Theresa [01:06:53]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [01:06:53]:
You know, and if you want to go deep into where spirituality takes us, there's the book Spiritual Experience. If you want a better handle on practices and why it's important to be spiritual, there's Return to the Sacred. And if you're going through a time of change, Inspiration deficit disorder. Very helpful.

Theresa [01:07:15]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [01:07:15]:
Anyway, those are some of the books, but you get the idea.

Theresa [01:07:18]:
Oh, yeah. Okay, Jonathan, so we'll finish with this. If there was an intention or a mantra that you wanted to offer the people that are listening to this, what might that be?

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [01:07:31]:
Oh, my Lord.

Walker [01:07:35]:
We came to work.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [01:07:36]:
Well, the first thing, the first thing that came to mind and it's. I don't know if it's the best thing I could offer is the only thing you need to be is yourself. And it's so simple. But that's the hardest work of all.

Theresa [01:07:54]:
I agree. And it so takes me back to what you were talking about earlier, which is how often we just need permission.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [01:08:01]:
Yeah.

Theresa [01:08:02]:
To be.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [01:08:03]:
And if you're a hot mess, be a hot mess.

Theresa [01:08:05]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [01:08:06]:
If you're stuck, be stuck.

Theresa [01:08:08]:
Yeah.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [01:08:09]:
All the comparing in the world is not going to get you anywhere. So start where you are. Self love, it's overstated, but never enough. Right?

Theresa [01:08:21]:
Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Thank you, Jonathan.

Walker [01:08:25]:
Thanks.

Dr. Jonathan Ellerby [01:08:26]:
Thank you.

Theresa [01:08:29]:
Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth and we strive to be more compassionate it every day.