How to Navigate Heartbreak Without Losing Yourself

Walker Bird [00:00:00]:
I remember as the marriage declined, you know, this love dies not with a scream, but with a whimper. And in that experience for me to trans transition from romantic concepts of love and relationship to something different took incremental steps and steps and steps and steps of pain.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:36]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:00:37]:
And so that it was when that relationship ended. I did a lot of drinking, but I don't think it was. It wasn't the same heartbreak that I experienced previously. I think it was more self punishment for being a failure. Not wanting to feel that.

Walker Bird [00:01:12]:
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:41]:
Well, hello.

Walker Bird [00:01:41]:
Hello.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:43]:
How are you?

Walker Bird [00:01:44]:
I'm good.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:45]:
Good.

Walker Bird [00:01:46]:
We had a nice warm up, so I feel much better than five minutes ago.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:51]:
Oh, good. I'm glad, babe.

Walker Bird [00:01:53]:
Thanks.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:53]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:01:53]:
How you?

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:54]:
Yeah, good, good. You know, adjusting. A lot of transition stuff going on. You know, home and work, we are traveling. You know, personally, there's just been a lot, you know, going on. But today feels like a good day. You know, I mean, there's always, you know, something going on, but it, I definitely feel like my sleep schedule is adjusting.

Walker Bird [00:02:21]:
Yeah, me too. But I mean, I've been positive about the fact that I keep waking up before 5am yeah. But then I'm super tired by 2 or 3.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:30]:
Okay.

Walker Bird [00:02:31]:
So still working through that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:32]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:02:32]:
I would love to be able to get up at 5am every day. Yeah, we'll see.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:37]:
We'll see. That's right. I think it's a great goal.

Walker Bird [00:02:40]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:41]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:02:42]:
So what are we talking about today?

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:43]:
Well, today, today we are talking about navigating heartbreak. Yeah. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:02:53]:
It's gonna be hard to go there.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:54]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:02:55]:
I mean, not hard, but sad. Yeah, yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:58]:
Heartbreak can, look. Can be a lot of different things.

Walker Bird [00:03:01]:
Yes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:01]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:03:02]:
So what parts about heartbreak are you interested in?

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:05]:
Oh, gosh, shoot. All of them I think about relationally. I just recorded a meditation about navigating heartbreak that'll come out on our YouTube channel. And oh, by the way, while I am thinking about it, make sure that you're hitting the notification button when you subscribe as well so that you actually get notified when our new material comes out. Because that was something that I did not understand about YouTube and I know you didn't understand about YouTube.

Walker Bird [00:03:39]:
Not at all.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:39]:
Even though we've been on YouTube, but for a while that it's not just subscribing, it's clicking it again so that you get notified.

Walker Bird [00:03:48]:
Yeah. So you have to click the little bell in addition to subscribing if you want to get notice of our next.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:54]:
Of whatever it is that we post. Right, right.

Walker Bird [00:03:57]:
Anyway, Surprise, surprise.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:58]:
Anyway, I know we want all of.

Walker Bird [00:04:01]:
You to join us.

Theresa Hubbard [00:04:02]:
Yes. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:04:03]:
Okay.

Theresa Hubbard [00:04:06]:
So relationally, we get a lot of feedback from people about that. That is such a difficult thing that people don't know what to do when a relationship ends. And so whether that is intimately, friendship, family, children. I mean, it can be a lot of different things. Can be a loss of a pet as well. But today I want to focus on, like, our intimate relationship.

Walker Bird [00:04:39]:
Okay.

Theresa Hubbard [00:04:42]:
And what that experience can be like. And also, you know, what things have we done or tried to really help us keep stepping forward when we're feeling like all is hopeless and helpless. Yeah. Yeah. What are you thinking as I share that?

Walker Bird [00:05:12]:
Oh, just thinking through heartbreak, you know, over time. And primarily thinking, gosh, you know, it's really different when you're 14, but not as opposed to when you're, you know, in your early 20s or when you're 45.

Theresa Hubbard [00:05:35]:
How do you imagine it being different when you say that?

Walker Bird [00:05:39]:
What are you imagining earlier ages? I don't think you've developed the coping skills unless you had really great parents that, you know, were able to communicate with you about their experiences and how and help you through that process. Plus, I think a lot of us haven't started down the road of loving ourselves. And. And I'm not saying I'm all the way down that road at all, but I'm much further down that road than I was, you know, the younger me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:11]:
So when you were talking about it being different, were you thinking about the experience being different or how we get regrounded again? What were you.

Walker Bird [00:06:22]:
I think it's the springing back part, you know, how soon? Because it's. It can still be devastating to your heart. Yeah, right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:35]:
Yeah. Do you.

Walker Bird [00:06:35]:
But I think we come back faster.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:39]:
Because of age or because of growth.

Walker Bird [00:06:41]:
Yeah, growth.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:42]:
Okay.

Walker Bird [00:06:43]:
Not because of age.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:44]:
Okay. Okay. I just wanted to be clear. Right. That you meant growth. Yeah. How aware are we of ourself? What do we understand about the complexity of relationship, the healthiness of relationship? Do we have skills? I mean, there's a lot, I think, that goes into how we rebound.

Walker Bird [00:07:09]:
Sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:10]:
And. And are we really rebounding or are we avoiding.

Walker Bird [00:07:15]:
Bypass?

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:16]:
Yeah, right. Sure, sure, sure. I don't want to feel this pain. Yeah. You know, it's interesting, I think about, you know, when I was like the first two people that I dated when I was in high school, it interestingly, very similar experiences. Um, they were people that were a few years older than me, which I thought meant that they were more mature. And both of them broke up with me to go back to someone they had been in relationship with before. And then those relationship ended, ended again.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:03]:
And then they both tried to come back and be in relationship with me.

Walker Bird [00:08:07]:
One I hadn't heard.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:08]:
Yeah. And so maybe, maybe, maybe you have. I don't know. But I mean, it seems like I would have shared these with you, but the first one, you know, I remember, you know, him reaching out and wanting to have a conversation. And I remember him coming by my work, which is interesting because they both did that coming by my work. But I did, you know, sit down, you know, with him and have a conversation. And, you know, he just explained why he wanted to get back in a relationship. And I remember, you know, saying, no, you know, that that was something that just wasn't an option.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:49]:
You know, if you've left me to be in relationship with someone else, it doesn't make sense that you would want to come back. And then again, then it happened again. I was a little bit older and similar again situation. And. And I had that same experience where it was like, no, you know, you've left, not interested. And. But then it changed. And I don't know that I could say I know why it changed, but I.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:29]:
I don't think in my mind that either one of those people were people I thought that I would be married to. And so when I was a little bit older and was dating someone and had what I would call my first experience of heartbreak, because I didn't. When they both broke up with me, it was really more confusion than heartbreak. I was just like, I don't understand. That's weird. But. So I would have probably been 19 when this happened. And I remember the experience being so powerful emotionally.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:18]:
And I don't know that I know how to distinguish it other than there must have been a part of me that had created an expectation that this relationship was the relationship, that I would be married to the person, because the attachment piece that I had to the relationship was so different than the other two people that I had dated. And so I remember when I thought that it was over, that I literally felt like I was going to die. I remember that I was in college and I remember being in my dorm room and I Remember just the overwhelming emotion. And I. Interestingly, I mean, upon reflection, not in the time, but upon reflection, I remember laying there in my dorm room and I started, I don't know, like, almost creating, like, a poem. And it was a poem. It was something like, oh, my gosh, I'll see if I can remember. But as I lay here and start to cry, I wonder if it's my time to die.

Theresa Hubbard [00:11:42]:
And then something about, you know, weeping and, I mean, it was just so, like, heavy. Right. And. And then I remember thinking, I need to write that down, you know, like. And so I, like, you know, got up and I remember writing it on this little bitty pink piece of paper. I may even still have it somewhere. I have no idea. But emotionally, it just felt more than I could manage.

Walker Bird [00:12:13]:
Yes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:14]:
Yeah. And what do you. Go ahead. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:12:23]:
Sorry. You know, in conversation, sometimes it takes us to our own experience, and I don't want to interrupt yours, so go ahead.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:29]:
It's okay.

Walker Bird [00:12:30]:
Anyway, let's talk about me. Thanks so much.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:36]:
It's okay. It's okay. That is normal, Right. It's just how our brain creates association based off similar experience. Well.

Walker Bird [00:12:44]:
And especially with a topic like this.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:46]:
Right, right.

Walker Bird [00:12:46]:
Yeah. So go ahead.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:48]:
Yeah. So, you know, for me, I don't know that I had a ton left to say, babe, you know, about it, other than I just remember that helplessness and the hopelessness and, you know, really feeling like who I was was just shaken. Like my identity had just been taken from me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So.

Walker Bird [00:13:13]:
So I know one thing that we'll want to talk through is how did you, you know, how did that go for you?

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:20]:
Yeah. Well, I don't.

Walker Bird [00:13:22]:
You get yourself out of that space.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:24]:
Young, age 19. Yeah. You know what I. What I believe that I did that I don't think, upon reflection, was healthy. I just think it was the best that I knew how to do because I hadn't been taught about how to help myself recover from an experience like that. I don't know that it was something that. I don't know. I think we just.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:53]:
I don't know that we really help people get over heartbreak. We just want them to move through it because it's hard for us to see people in pain or. Or even be a burden. You know, people can feel like that, that their pain is somebody's a burden they don't want.

Walker Bird [00:14:07]:
Sure. Here comes mopey.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:09]:
Right? Whatever. Right. So for me, what I would say at the time is I became determined to convince that person that I had value, that Was what I did.

Walker Bird [00:14:26]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:27]:
Right. So ultimately just tried harder to convince them that I had value.

Walker Bird [00:14:35]:
Was your intention to win them back or just to show them.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:38]:
Oh, no, to win them back. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, sure. To ensure non abandonment. Absolutely. At that point. Absolutely.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:46]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:14:46]:
How'd that go?

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:47]:
Successful initially. Right. For. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:14:49]:
Oh, my goodness.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:50]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:14:51]:
You are good. You misguided, but good.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:56]:
Right. Misguided.

Walker Bird [00:14:57]:
So tell us more.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:58]:
Yeah. What I did is. I think I learned. I really began to learn how to sacrifice myself to ensure that I stayed in relationship is really what I feel like I learned during that time. Not to hold on to myself like I did the first two times when I was younger.

Walker Bird [00:15:18]:
Oh. I was wanting to go back to that too, because it's impressive.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:22]:
Yeah. I did so much better when I was younger. And that's why something in my story changed. Right. Something in my identity changed. My expectations changed. That made that relationship so much more difficult. And so what I'm trying to remember, I would guess at that point that I had had sex where the first two relationships I didn't.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:49]:
And so I don't know if there was, you know, some story that I had about, like, my value, like, because I had had sex at that point, then did that mean that relationship needed to work or had to work? I don't know. I can't go back to that period and be that clear about that. It's just something that, you know, came to mind. But something changed between those relationships and that relationship. There was some attachment that had grown to that relationship. Right. So now, for me, like, even in the meditation that I just recorded, is really about allowing ourselves to feel it, all of it. The stories that we created, the memories that we have.

Walker Bird [00:16:46]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:48]:
You know, how. What did we learn from the experience? How did we maybe lose ourselves? What shame might we be carrying? And really just getting to that place of allowing the experience so that the grief doesn't get stuck in our body.

Walker Bird [00:17:07]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:08]:
So that we can just keep stepping forward, keep breathing. Knowing that there's an opportunity for us to learn and step into relationship differently.

Walker Bird [00:17:24]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:24]:
The next time.

Walker Bird [00:17:26]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:26]:
Yeah. So.

Walker Bird [00:17:30]:
I think I'm gonna cut you off where you asked me a question.

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:35]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:17:37]:
I just thinking about that piece, and I think since I started doing meditation, and I think this is an important point when you talk about the allowing process.

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:55]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:17:55]:
Having being able to take a breath and get yourself grounded, to be able to have at least a little bit of the observer role.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:07]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:18:07]:
Which is, you know, to. Okay, I'm, you know, to recognize. I'M having these feelings and while they, you know, they may be real, I'm having them, they may not be true.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:19]:
Right, right, right.

Walker Bird [00:18:20]:
But I'm not going to judge or not judge, et cetera. I'm going to just see, you know, allow it, whatever it is, the thoughts and. But also recognizing that I'm watching this film.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:33]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:18:33]:
Play out that I'm creating.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:35]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:18:36]:
And, and so, you know, if you could, if there's more to that process of allowing, that's helpful for people who are watching or listening. Yeah, I think it would be helpful because I'm working through that with my therapist now.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:49]:
Yeah, well, what's really funny is that you haven't read that meditation, but all those things you just talked about are all the things I did. Yeah, I covered them. And so though I talked about it not as a movie going by, but as leaves flowing by gently on a stream and then allowing, you know, there's also some really gentle self inquiry, a lot of deep breath, recognizing, you know, our breath and allowing our breath to be part of the release process, you know, being, you know, grounded in ourself and our body. So there was all that, you know, was in there, you know, I feel like. Plus I do talk about, you know, finding good support, you know, whether that's a friend or a family member, someone who you, you know, feel like can truly hold that space well for you so you can share your story.

Walker Bird [00:19:52]:
We don't all have that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:53]:
No, we don't all have that. And so, you know, accessing resources, you know, whether that's a therapist or, you know, there's a lot of different help lines out there, you know, where you can call and when you're in distress. I just don't know that we utilize them often, whether that's through shame or embarrassment or even just unawareness, you know, that there are people that we can call who will listen, you know, that don't cost us money because not everybody has the resources that they need for that. For me, it's, you know, do I want to find a way through this or do I want to sit in this? And so to me, it's. It's not, you know, the, the victim part or the wallowing. It's really, you know, can I allow myself the experience? Can I honor my. My emotions and my story and my identity, you know, how as I have it defined now and then recognizing that I, you know, also have value and worth and I'm worthy of love and healthy relationship and. And so how do I keep moving forward by moving into Action in some way, even if it's just intentionally breathing and, you know, me walking in nature, barefoot in the grass, feeling the wind, you know, sensory connection.

Theresa Hubbard [00:21:35]:
Caring for yourself in some way. Smelling something that smells good to you, and not just the. That smells good, but the. Where your body really, really takes it in. Mm.

Walker Bird [00:21:52]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:21:53]:
Yeah. So a lot of intentionality, but for self care. Right. Like, I want to care for myself in this pain.

Walker Bird [00:22:02]:
Yeah, Yeah. I think it's important to recognize that in that process, you know, not to judge ourselves because we will wallow. We're human. The issue is, can you see yourself wallowing and, you know, when. When you recognize that, you know, trying to work for the space to be able see it and then, you know, continue working on finding yourself grounding again.

Theresa Hubbard [00:22:31]:
So when I think about, like, the difference between wallowing and honoring. Wallowing or is I'm going to hold on to this pain, whereas honoring is feeling it and releasing. Yeah, yeah. What do you.

Walker Bird [00:22:48]:
I was thinking about my song. You know, when you listen to my. You're like, what music do you listen to? And so every song was sad that I listened to for years.

Theresa Hubbard [00:22:58]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:22:58]:
And, you know, that's wallowing. That was wallowing because I didn't know any other way to do it. Nobody ever, you know, no one ever taught me. I didn't know. And I had a lot of things that, you know, created that. But changing that playlist and changing my whole. Things I listen to anyway.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:21]:
Right. Yeah. It's such a great point. I'm so glad you brought that up, babe, because that is something we often talk about in retreat when, you know, when people come as we talk about, you know, what's on your playlist, what are you paying attention to? What are you reinforcing? And I think even that particular song, you know, that stands out that, you know, when you sent me.

Walker Bird [00:23:43]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:46]:
Give me a second.

Walker Bird [00:23:47]:
I got it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:48]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:23:49]:
Go ahead and say Battle Scars.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:50]:
Battle Scars by.

Walker Bird [00:23:52]:
I think it's Lupe Fiasco, but there's somebody else that sings on it too.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:56]:
Yeah, yeah. And. And to me, it's. I mean, the. That is such a powerful song. Helplessness, Victim. Right. Like, it's really like, I'm gonna hold on to my pain.

Theresa Hubbard [00:24:14]:
I have no choice. I have no freedom. I am stuck. Other people.

Walker Bird [00:24:17]:
No way out.

Theresa Hubbard [00:24:17]:
No way out. Right. No way out. And so sometimes people may need to listen to something like that to access their pain. And so I don't want people to think that listening to something like Bottle Scars is bad. It's just what do we do with it? Are we reinforcing helplessness? Are we like, wow, it felt that powerful. It felt that deep. It felt that painful.

Theresa Hubbard [00:24:49]:
And I'm walking away from that. That isn't where I want to live.

Walker Bird [00:24:56]:
Sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:24:57]:
I want to find my value. Right. I mean, so much of the month of June for us is personal empowerment. Right. And so to me, some of what we're doing in regards to even this conversation is how do we find ourself on the other side of heartbreak? How do we remember that we have value?

Walker Bird [00:25:25]:
That's our work.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:26]:
Yes.

Walker Bird [00:25:27]:
Along the path forever. Forever. Which will lessen the heartbreak the next time it happens in whatever context it is.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:37]:
That's the hope.

Walker Bird [00:25:38]:
But I think, I really believe that our self worth, if we can get there, is the key.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:48]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:25:50]:
To how long and how deep we are in that space. And it isn't that, you know, we're human and having the experience is okay. It creates a depth of experience and character. But being able to move out.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:06]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:26:07]:
Because we know we have value regardless of somebody else that's changed. Right. Or that. Who. We didn't. We thought they were something that they weren't. Sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:19]:
Whatever story we created.

Walker Bird [00:26:21]:
Sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:21]:
Right, right.

Walker Bird [00:26:22]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:23]:
Yeah. Because we all do. And so thinking about that, the navigating, you know, heartbreak, you know, part of that is, you know, what story did I attach to this relationship? You know, so that often is what our pain is really about. If we dig down underneath all the layers, which most of us don't do. Like, what is this really about? I'm not good enough. I'm not lovable. I've been abandoned. Right.

Walker Bird [00:27:00]:
Yeah. Sacrificing myself is romantic and honorable. That's what I believed.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:07]:
Yeah. Okay, well, let's go to you then. Let's. Let's. Let's rewind and pick up where you felt some connection to the story I was sharing.

Walker Bird [00:27:17]:
Yeah. I am. My experience is very different.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:22]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:27:22]:
Than yours. I didn't. I wasn't that person who was strong the first time because I didn't have a sense of self worth based on how I grew up. There was lots of neglect. And so, I mean, I had a girlfriend when I was 10. You know, I gave her a little stuffed toy on her birthday, which was the same birthday as mine. But, you know, I mean, we sat on the bus together a few times and then she broke up with me. And it was really, you know, I was a little sad, but not really, you know, so that doesn't really count.

Walker Bird [00:27:55]:
It was like puppy love. But Then.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:00]:
I think it can count.

Walker Bird [00:28:03]:
Well, I, for whatever reason, it wasn't the same as what happened when I had a, you know, I mean, I. She was my first girlfriend for those two weeks. Right. I mean, and then my next girlfriend was like in 8th grade and it didn't last very long either. And she wanted to date a high school guy. Right. So that, that hurt. But I got over it just by being mean to her afterwards, you know, so it was a weird thing.

Walker Bird [00:28:36]:
I mean, we both, we talked more easily after she broke up with me, actually. And somebody's like, you guys like each other more now than when you were a couple.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:44]:
Interesting.

Walker Bird [00:28:45]:
Which was weird.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:46]:
Yeah. Stories we carry.

Walker Bird [00:28:48]:
Yeah. But you know, I just, it was just like, oh, really? You. I'm not good enough because I'm not.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:53]:
A high school guy.

Walker Bird [00:28:54]:
So in any event. So then the only other person I dated.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:00]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:29:00]:
And married.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:01]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:29:02]:
Was my ex wife.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:03]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:29:04]:
From the time we were 14. She came after my eighth grade breakup. She was my next eighth grade girlfriend.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:11]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:29:12]:
And so, you know, just given my family situation because, you know, my parents were divorced, my dad was basically never home. I got taken into her family, you know, they fed me. I was like one of their kids almost. And so, you know, they took me to events, that sort of stuff. And so it was like having a family to me. And so, I don't know, she just. There were things that happened along the way that were hard, you know, more than once.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:48]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:29:52]:
Well, I won't, you know, I need to be with my friends on my birthday. So, you know, that was like the first taste of it. And then I don't know how old we were, maybe 16. We. I ran track, played different sports, but I ran track. And she was like the manager of the track team or whatever, keeping track of who was running what races, etc. But in any event, you know, one day she just tells me. Well, I like, you know, she didn't even tell me who it was.

Walker Bird [00:30:24]:
It was just games, you know. Well, who is it? Well, you know, I'm not going to tell you. Yeah. But he's got blue eyes and you can see.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:36]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:30:36]:
I don't.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:37]:
You don't.

Walker Bird [00:30:40]:
And so there was. She thought that something was going to happen, I guess, and it turned out he didn't like her. And then in that process, you know what the advice I got from my dad because I was moping around the house, I mean, I was heartbroken.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:56]:
Yeah. And.

Walker Bird [00:30:57]:
And wallowing like no tomorrow, you know, because I. This concept I had then of romantic love was the only one that I seen, you know, in movies or whatever, and there weren't a lot of movies back then.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:11]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:31:12]:
But enough to think that chivalry was debasing yourself for the happiness of the other person. Whatever makes you happy.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:24]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:31:25]:
Right, Right. And you know, the sad part about that is. And it's so funny, because we watch the Princess Bride. Your sons love it. And I love the movie, too. It's a great movie. But he. Wesley is doing that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:38]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:31:39]:
As you wish. And I. You know, after we watched it, then I would say, as you wish. And then I stopped because I was like, you know what? I've been there.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:45]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:31:46]:
And actually, I love you.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:48]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:31:48]:
But I won't do that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:50]:
Right. You sing. That's a meatloaf. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:31:57]:
Oh, gosh.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:58]:
Walker likes to use music, as I do, as a way of communicating. Yeah. Which is funny. I enjoy it. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:32:08]:
Anyway, but the. I don't know. I'm kind of wandering around here, but the point that just came up to me was this. And it's that when you don't have a sense of self, if you think that romantic love and true love, which I did, was, I will sacrifice whatever I am, whatever I have for you to be happy. The. The sad part about that is the other person is smothered in the process because you are not your own person. You're needy.

Theresa Hubbard [00:32:48]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:32:50]:
And so that was. That's a hard thing to learn. And it took me a long, long time to learn it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:32:58]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:32:59]:
You know, but in any event, she came back after she was, I guess, rejected by this other guy, you know, and. Oh, you know, I remember sitting on the couch, we're having this conversation. There wasn't any texting back then because there were no cell phones. And so you couldn't break up by text, or you couldn't get back together by text either. You know, I guess you could pass a note through a friend, or you had to have a meeting actually face to face, and instead of having pride and. And thinking it through, and it's like, listen, I. I like myself way too much to be treated like that, to just be, you know, cast aside because you fell in love with somebody's blue eyes, you know? You know, the guy.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:46]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:33:50]:
You know, I just. I. I didn't have that. And so. Yes. And, I mean, that set the stage for 30 years of marriage and. And similar tests.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:12]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:34:14]:
You know, disregard. And I'm not. I was no angel in that process. I would be reactive, scream, curse, and, you know, horrible.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:26]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:34:28]:
And. But it Worked. I lost every time I, you know, called her a name because all of a sudden it was me who was doing the thing. But in any event, and I'm sure that whatever my habits are could be annoying too. But in any event, it's another thing that I want to say after going through all that is just. I remember as the marriage declined, you know, this love dies not with a scream, with a whimper. And it. That experience for me to trans transition from romantic concepts of love and relationship to something different took incremental steps and steps and steps and steps of pain.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:24]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:35:25]:
And so that it was when that relationship ended. I did a lot of drinking, but I don't think it was. It wasn't the same heartbreak that I experienced previously. I think it was more self punishment for being a failure, not wanting to feel that because when it was over, it was over for me. Finally.

Theresa Hubbard [00:36:01]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:36:02]:
You know, I mean, I'm not saying there weren't moments when I was like, gosh, was this a mistake? Or whatever, but not a lot. So in any event, I, I don't know where the heck I was going. But that, you know, my experience was so different. I didn't have the family support that you had of. I don't know, you know, at least I only had one parent who was never there. Right. Is all I'm saying. I don't know where you got your sense of self worth, but you had it that first time for the first two times and I did not.

Walker Bird [00:36:40]:
And so that was the course that it took for me. And that where that concept came of, of what is love? You know, probably because my parents had gotten divorced and it was like, oh, you know, if it had just been this way and I, you know, my mom would listen to sad music all the time, so that stage was set.

Theresa Hubbard [00:36:58]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:36:59]:
Yeah. And when they got divorced, you know, she didn't take anything and it was like, if you love. I think I heard her say, if you love somebody, you don't ask.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:09]:
Wow.

Walker Bird [00:37:11]:
So I have had a lot to learn. But finding yourself as a person having self respect and self, like I think is a critical piece to having healthy relationship so that you're not needy. I mean, we may be needy from time to time, you know, but not in the same way.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:37]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:37:37]:
Not as in I will not survive if I don't have you.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:41]:
Right, Right.

Walker Bird [00:37:43]:
Talk about a wet blanket.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:44]:
Right? Right.

Walker Bird [00:37:45]:
On the other person, you know, might feel good for a while, but. Yeah, that's my thought. What do you think? Balls back in your court. I did a Lot of talking.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:58]:
Well, I was just thinking about needs. I mean, there was. I remember being told that I was needy. And in this particular case, I mean, even upon reflection, I wasn't unreasonably needy. I was just asking for something the other person wasn't willing to give. And I remember one time, you know, that being said to me, and me saying, you know what? This is what I know. You are no less needy than I am. It's just your needs are different than mine.

Walker Bird [00:38:48]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:49]:
I want connection. I want relationship. I want depth. You want to not be interrupted. You want there to be a schedule. You want these, all these things. And so we both have needs. Our needs are just different.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:09]:
But you're valuing mine as more needy than your needs. But they're not. But what we need is very different. Yeah, yeah.

Walker Bird [00:39:22]:
It just occurred to me in that process, I don't want people, you know, because it's. It's like this. There's a. There's a line at some point, right. Between I have needs and I have. I don't know what the word is, you know, standards in relationship. These are the must haves.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:41]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:39:42]:
And having those types of boundaries and expectations, I think can be healthy to a point. And so there's a difference between that and being the needy that I was describing, which is my whole sense of self is wrapped around whether you like me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:00]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:40:01]:
Or you respect me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:03]:
Right, Right.

Walker Bird [00:40:04]:
And that's a big difference for people to recognize.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:08]:
Right, right.

Walker Bird [00:40:09]:
Have you run into that and. Oh, sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:12]:
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I've worked with plenty of people over the years who had, for whatever reasons, many reasons, you know, whether that's family, society, specific circumstances where their entire value was based on how their partner interacted with them, treated them. Right, Right. There was no sense of self, for sure. And that. So my identity comes. It's so inconsistent because it comes from you. So if my identity comes from you, then I don't know how that can't be overwhelming.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:08]:
Right. Whether the other person is healthy or not healthy. Right, right, right.

Walker Bird [00:41:14]:
If they're on the healthy side, it will be like, overly burdensome. At some point, she's like, we cannot carry.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:22]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:41:23]:
Someone else's self of, you know, sense of self.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:26]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:41:26]:
Not completely, anyway.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:28]:
Right. So I think, you know, to me, this. The conversation goes back to everything that we talk about. Right. Which is developing your sense of self. You're knowing your intuition. You know, who am I experimenting, exploring, having contrast in life. You know, what is it that I truly want? What do I value? What's important to me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:55]:
And I think those questions can be very difficult to answer. And there's always that difference between sense of self and then self absorption right there.

Walker Bird [00:42:09]:
So we're so complex.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:11]:
We are so complex.

Walker Bird [00:42:12]:
It's all about me now.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:15]:
It's so complex.

Walker Bird [00:42:16]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:19]:
Anyway, so just thinking about that, the heartbreak, you know, allowing the, the process of the emotion, the feeling, the experience, having the intention of releasing it, of it moving, not being stuck. And then for me, always stepping into a different experience, some contrast for me. I'm like, okay, take a class, you know, meet other people, find something that I might enjoy or, you know, be competent in. Work on our playlist. Find some things that are, you know, empowering as well that can help us find hope.

Walker Bird [00:43:16]:
Yeah. And I, you know, I mean, obviously I'm a proponent of therapy, but even if it's not professional, just the how you can do it, I mean, professionally is the best way, frankly. But figuring out how to like yourself, how to have self worth and to have. Be able to say these are the. And you, you have a term for that you've talked about where you say, what are your must haves in a relationship? What do you call that?

Theresa Hubbard [00:43:46]:
So, so when I have clients who are wanting, considering stepping into relationship again. And this was an exercise, I don't know where it came from, and I've modified it, you know, over time. But it was, I think called like the Heaven and Hell list. And I think that, I think it was like, you know, if you could have anything you wanted, that would be like the Heaven list. And then if it was, you know, everything you absolutely don't want, then that would be the hell list. And so what I, it's not how I refer to it, but that may have come from somewhere. So what I talk to clients about is getting really clear about what's important to you. And not just from that and that relationship that ended, but any other relationship, even if it's not an intimate partner, if it's a, you know, close friend or family, you know, what is it that you truly value in another person and relationship and what, you know, characteristics do you want them to have? And then, you know, what are absolutely things that are just not an option.

Walker Bird [00:45:07]:
Deal breakers.

Theresa Hubbard [00:45:08]:
Right? What are the deal breakers? Absolutely.

Walker Bird [00:45:10]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:45:11]:
And then when I go through the attributes that they want, because that typically is. Can be a pretty long list, is we'll go through each one and it's like, which one is a non negotiable.

Walker Bird [00:45:23]:
There you go.

Theresa Hubbard [00:45:23]:
That was the word, right?

Walker Bird [00:45:24]:
What are your non negotiables?

Theresa Hubbard [00:45:25]:
Non negotiables, right. And so I remember, you know, this particular situation years ago where, you know, the person had stepped into relationship again and you know, we would go through the list and it would be like, okay, that's a no. And then, okay, that person's a no. Okay, then that person's a no. And then this person, this next person was. They had met quite a few things on the list that were positive, but there was one non negotiable negative. And that conversation was, you know, truly, is this something that you want to risk? I understand that they have all these other positive attributes, but this was a non negotiable when you made this list. And the reason we made the list is because we often then compromise ourself so that we can be chosen, so that we can not be abandoned.

Theresa Hubbard [00:46:27]:
Right. And so we'll compromise our own list. And so writing it down and having someone who can compassionately, thoughtfully work with you through that so that you can more intentionally make the choice whether you're stepping into that relationship or not. Ultimately, in that case, that person did not. They ended the relationship and decided that it was not worth risking. But I have found that, I mean, gosh, I've probably been doing that exercise with people 17 years, I would guess, and so many people have found it so helpful. And I think that it also, when we get clear about what it is we're wanting, it's easier for us to see it when it's around.

Walker Bird [00:47:18]:
Sure, absolutely. I mean, and it comes back to the, you know, self worth thing, I think still, can I stand, I mean, just a thought I had just for any, maybe even young men that might be watching or listening, is that, you know, when I'm talking about you have to have self worth and it can't be wrapped up in what the other person thinks or does. It doesn't mean that, you know, you're not, not. You become stoic. Right. Completely. And the other, it's just like I'm in relationship, but nothing matters. There's still love and respect and, you know, desiring of that closeness, I think.

Walker Bird [00:48:01]:
And so I want to make sure you know that by saying what I said about romantic love, that I don't suggest that, you know, you not have consideration for the other person's wants, needs, desires, feelings, those sorts of things. Right?

Theresa Hubbard [00:48:20]:
Sure. Oh, absolutely.

Walker Bird [00:48:21]:
Because I think that's real relationship, but also the ability to, you know, have separation.

Theresa Hubbard [00:48:30]:
So I think I'm trying to remember what the terminology was to be clear. From graduate school. It's been a long time. But I think healthy relationship is our ability to be. Gosh, I wish I could remember. So differentiation, this ability to be, you know, connected but separate. Right, right. And so when I think about, you know, developing a sense of self, I don't think about it, you know, that way that you were clarifying.

Theresa Hubbard [00:49:05]:
You know, for me, if I have a sense of self, no matter what comes towards me, no matter what I experience, even if it is painful and I experience loss and grief, that I don't lose who I am in the process, that I can find myself again. That, that resilience that, you know, that we talk about throughout our different podcasts is so important. You know, reflecting, like, what have. What have I done in this relationship that was healthy? What have I done that wasn't so healthy? Being as aware as we can and often with the help of others to help us point out the things that we do that aren't very healthy. But finding those things doesn't mean that I'm getting stuck. Right. It's really identifying the areas that I just need more growth in. I need more skill in.

Theresa Hubbard [00:50:14]:
So sense of self to me. So my Mikase name with Boy Scouts is deep rooted Willow. And so for me, I don't know if willows are deep rooted or not. I'm not sure.

Walker Bird [00:50:33]:
Well, yours is.

Theresa Hubbard [00:50:34]:
Mine is. But really what that was about for me when I was asked to choose my name was that steadfastness, but also that flexibility at the same time. And so I feel like that that's very important when we're developing a sense of self is really to have that root deep, like, this is who I am. So that as these different life experiences happen, I can feel it, I'm impacted by it. Obviously, you know, I'm being moved by the experience, but I'm not losing my center. Right. I know who I am.

Walker Bird [00:51:19]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:20]:
And I knew it. And then I lost myself. And then I've worked. I feel like the last 25 years finding myself again.

Walker Bird [00:51:28]:
Sure. Yeah, yeah. It's just striking me just there's like, you can still sacrifice for the other person and you can give, there's reciprocity, you know, and so if you. If you are doing that every time on every issue, that's what I did and it didn't work.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:50]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:51:51]:
But in relationship, I want to be giving and generous and loving and, you know, not always have to have my way.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:59]:
Right, right, right.

Walker Bird [00:52:02]:
But there's a balance.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:03]:
Yeah, yeah. We talk. Know what I'm laughing about? What I'm laughing about is when you asked me early in our relationship whether I liked the book the Giving Tree or not, and I said absolutely not.

Walker Bird [00:52:15]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:16]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:52:16]:
Well.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:17]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:52:18]:
That's who I was.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:19]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:52:19]:
I feel like until she may say different.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:22]:
Right. But that was your experience.

Walker Bird [00:52:27]:
Son of a.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:31]:
Yeah. Oh, gosh. There wasn't a lot left of you.

Walker Bird [00:52:38]:
I don't think so. And. But I honestly, I just thought that was love.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:43]:
Right. I did.

Walker Bird [00:52:44]:
It's just so misguided.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:46]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:52:47]:
And like I said, it did, you know, if the other person is healthy, you know, it's still a burden. But if they're not healthy or they're immature, you know, just looking back at that, I mean, that's one of the roles or parts that I played in the. The devastation of the relationship.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:05]:
Right, right.

Walker Bird [00:53:06]:
You know, if I had had more of a sense of self and not been completely having my self worth tied up in her, who knows, maybe, you know, from us being young people growing, that it would have turned out differently. I don't know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:22]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:53:23]:
I. It would have helped.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:25]:
Well, it would have been. Right. And it would have been different and it would have helped. Sure.

Walker Bird [00:53:28]:
Or it would have ended sooner. I mean, you know, instead of this strangling, you know, over years, death. It was horrible.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:36]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:53:37]:
It's just. It's tragic is what it is, really. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:42]:
So also then, for people seeking examples of healthy relationship.

Walker Bird [00:53:48]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:49]:
Right. Which I think sometimes can be difficult for us to find. Yeah. But knowing that as we talk about it's messy. As much effort as you and I put into relationship every day.

Walker Bird [00:54:04]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:04]:
It's still messy. It's still complex. We just keep learning.

Walker Bird [00:54:10]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:12]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:54:12]:
Something that keeps coming to mind, and I want to get it out before we're done because I know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:16]:
Uhhuh. Probably close. Yep. Yep.

Walker Bird [00:54:21]:
A lot of our listeners, you know, we've posted and then I did a reel about, hey, you know, what's something you wish your parents had.

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:29]:
Yep.

Walker Bird [00:54:29]:
Told you.

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:30]:
Yep. We're working on it.

Walker Bird [00:54:31]:
Yeah. And I mean, this is touching on that topic. We'll do some more shorts along the way. But, you know, in the midst of that first big breakup, I, you know, just completely.

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:41]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:54:42]:
Devastated. And my dad says, well, you know, it's probably for the best anyway, because you didn't really have any other friends besides her. And that was true. However, you know, coming from him, the, you know, I was defensive of her, frankly, you know, in my heart.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:08]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:55:09]:
So wasn't. That wasn't helpful.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:11]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:55:12]:
But I don't Know that he had any capacity. Really.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:15]:
Sure.

Walker Bird [00:55:16]:
You know, other than to just turn off and say, well, I don't care about anyone but me, you know?

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:22]:
Right. That's how he protected himself.

Walker Bird [00:55:24]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:24]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:55:25]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:25]:
Instead of growing and learning, just protected himself more, which I think is common. We're just trying to. Right. Help people be more intentional about their process. So.

Walker Bird [00:55:38]:
Yeah. I mean, if he'd been able to say, listen, you know, let's sit down and. And talk about self worth and we'd had that conversation.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:47]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:55:47]:
Who knows how different that might have been?

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:50]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:55:50]:
And it was just. It's such a. Just a slight change in degree from a parenting perspective that if he'd been able to say the words that we're talking about, which is, listen, you know, you can't base your whole self.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:03]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:56:03]:
On how somebody else feels about you because feelings change, people change. And that season may be over.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:13]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:56:13]:
And there somebody else is going to love you. But you loving yourself is the most important part. You know, big hug.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:23]:
Shoo.

Walker Bird [00:56:24]:
Could have saved decades of issues.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:27]:
Maybe.

Walker Bird [00:56:29]:
So anyway, I just didn't want that. It was such a good opportunity to. To give that example.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:34]:
Yeah. So I agree.

Walker Bird [00:56:36]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:37]:
Yeah. Holding space. Right. Holding space for people who are in pain. Right. And then, you know, how can I best support you, you know, in this and you know, as a parent for sure. Helping our child understand the complexity of relationship would be helpful.

Walker Bird [00:57:00]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:00]:
Yeah. Well, thanks for the conversation.

Walker Bird [00:57:05]:
Thank you. I love you.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:06]:
I love you too. We wanted to take a moment to encourage you to take the 10 Essential Skills to Build Stronger and Healthier Relationship course.

Walker Bird [00:57:17]:
We've all heard it said that when you get to the end of your life, you're not looking back at the money that you made or the things that you had, but at the relationships that you had with your children, your family, your friends and your co workers. We hope you'll join us.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:31]:
Yeah. We truly believe it is worth the effort. Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth and we strive to be more compassionate every day.