Navigating Subconscious Family Roles and Dynamics
Theresa Hubbard and Walker Bird
In this episode of My Inner Knowing, hosts Theresa Hubbard and Walker Bird explore the fascinating and complex world of family dynamics and subconscious role behaviors. They explore how roles established in childhood continue to shape interactions and emotional patterns in adulthood, often without us even realizing it. Can we allow those we love to grow?
Drawing on their personal experiences and professional insights, they discuss the challenges of reverting to past roles during family gatherings, the physiological and psychological responses to these behaviors, and the tension between personal growth and entrenched family expectations. You'll hear thought-provoking anecdotes, tips for balancing intentional choices with aging parents, and strategies for navigating evolving family dynamics.
This episode highlights the importance of open communication, non-reactive observation, and creating healthier boundaries within family systems and offers valuable tools to approach familial relationships with compassion and growth.
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Episode Transcript
Walker [00:00:04]:
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life. Each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path. Well, hello.
Theresa [00:00:32]:
Well, hello. How are you?
Walker [00:00:35]:
I'm great.
Theresa [00:00:36]:
Good.
Walker [00:00:37]:
I'm great. Yeah.
Theresa [00:00:38]:
Good.
Walker [00:00:41]:
How about you? How are you?
Theresa [00:00:42]:
I'm good. Good. Yeah. It's been a while since we recorded because we had recorded so many.
Walker [00:00:48]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:00:49]:
And so it's just like getting back into the groove. Yeah. So holidays just passed. More coming up.
Walker [00:01:02]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:01:04]:
And so talking about the anxiety that can come around the holidays, as well as the joyous times and then the experience of reverting back to younger emotional parts of ourself when we're around family.
Walker [00:01:27]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:01:28]:
Yeah. So right before we started, you mentioned something, but you didn't give me specifics. So where do you want to start?
Walker [00:01:37]:
Oh, I. Wherever you want to start.
Theresa [00:01:43]:
Oh, well, go ahead. You said something about.
Walker [00:01:46]:
Yeah. So we went to where my daughter lives to see her.
Theresa [00:01:51]:
Yes.
Walker [00:01:52]:
And she's 24.
Theresa [00:01:53]:
Yes.
Walker [00:01:54]:
And as you know, was planes, trains and automobiles for that week, et cetera. But that is not what it is. In any event, this was her first hosting of Thanksgiving, right?
Theresa [00:02:03]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:02:04]:
And it has nothing to do really with that, but I noticed that with. She's my only child, right.
Theresa [00:02:15]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:02:16]:
We talk baby all the time. Did you notice that?
Theresa [00:02:21]:
Well, I have noticed that. Yeah.
Walker [00:02:24]:
Yeah, she does. And I do, too.
Theresa [00:02:26]:
Yeah. Okay, well, tell us more.
Walker [00:02:30]:
Just. I don't understand that.
Walker [00:02:32]:
I'm.
Walker [00:02:33]:
I just. I was wondering, you know, afterwards if that's something that I've always done with her, which wouldn't surprise me. She's my baby girl, right.
Theresa [00:02:46]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:02:47]:
But she's my baby, period. I don't. I honestly don't know what it's about. It just. We both did it and it was. It was definitely falling back into a role.
Theresa [00:03:10]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:03:10]:
Because she speaks business now.
Theresa [00:03:13]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:03:14]:
And she's very mature and professional when she's talking about business. But we were both, like, young, like six, maybe younger. And not really because we had some great conversations.
Theresa [00:03:30]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:03:31]:
Significant, you know, substantial topics and vulnerable topics, those sorts of things.
Theresa [00:03:35]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:03:36]:
You engaged her around some of the things that we're doing, and there were. She was mature.
Theresa [00:03:41]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:03:42]:
With you. But when we were out doing activities, she and I would do that.
Theresa [00:03:47]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:03:49]:
We didn't do it during the game that we played.
Theresa [00:03:51]:
Yeah, yeah. True, true. Yeah.
Walker [00:03:56]:
So what do you suppose that is in the most kind way that you can put it.
Theresa [00:04:06]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:04:07]:
Because my little boy could get his feelings hurt really fast on this topic. It's a tender relationship, you know, I mean.
Theresa [00:04:15]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:04:16]:
When. When I got divorced, we had a rough patch.
Theresa [00:04:23]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:04:23]:
When she was 18 or 17. And it's taken a lot of work on my part, which was needed. And she's done a lot of work, too.
Theresa [00:04:34]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:04:34]:
But that was my responsibility.
Theresa [00:04:39]:
Sure.
Walker [00:04:40]:
And so it is interesting. And she looks up to me for advice.
Theresa [00:04:44]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:04:44]:
You know, calls about advice and always compliments how much I know and how wise I am, all those things. And I know a thing or two. I've been on the planet for quite some time now, but parts of me are still a little boy.
Theresa [00:05:02]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:05:04]:
Hence, part of that is good, and part of it maybe not so much.
Theresa [00:05:11]:
Hmm. So when I think about it, I'm initially thinking about it more in general. I think about it from a physiology perspective that under stress, we go to our oldest patterns in, you know, part of training is teaching our body that it can do other things, but when situations are, you know, more unknown. And Thanksgiving for us was more unknown.
Walker [00:05:50]:
Sure.
Theresa [00:05:50]:
Right. New place that she's living. New place she's living in, spending time with her, you know, boyfriend's family.
Walker [00:06:01]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:06:01]:
Just the whole, you know, process, you know, was new.
Walker [00:06:05]:
Different city.
Theresa [00:06:05]:
Different city. Right. I mean, we had been traveling with a certain amount of chaos for four days before that.
Walker [00:06:13]:
Sure.
Theresa [00:06:15]:
And so I think there were a lot of things that contribute to how far we regress and how long. And how long we regress. Sure. And there's some questions I had that came up when you started sharing it, because this isn't something we've talked about. So, I mean, about Thanksgiving.
Walker [00:06:35]:
Right.
Theresa [00:06:35]:
And so. So knowing that. That our body likes what's familiar in order to find safety. And so I think you also hadn't seen each other in person for over a year.
Walker [00:06:56]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:06:57]:
And so I think, particularly when we've had some trauma in our relationship, that we tend even physically, not just emotionally, mentally, but physically, you know, like, kind of, where do I fit? You know, here. Our body likes to know what's coming. It's always predicting what's coming. Literally, it's always predicting what's coming. It's why we can drive places. We always drive without even thinking about it, unless something unpredictable happens. Our body likes that efficiency. It likes the known.
Theresa [00:07:38]:
And so I think. And again, it's looking for safety. So I think about it from that perspective and then, I don't know, I mean, the thought that comes to mind, babe, is maybe that six year old piece was a time that felt most safe in your relationship. Maybe it was more playful then, maybe it was more connected then. Maybe it was, I don't know, more precious in some way. Yeah, yeah.
Walker [00:08:21]:
Till she was about 12.
Theresa [00:08:23]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:08:24]:
And that's a typical, you know, evolution, but it is interesting.
Theresa [00:08:30]:
Yeah. So I think about it physiologically first and you know, there was a movie, I wish I could remember for sure what it was called years ago. I think it was called the Family Stone, but I don't remember exactly. But it was a holiday movie and I think it was about that, like, you know, when people get around their family, they revert to the age they were when they kind of like distanced from the family because it's like, well, I knew you, I lived with you until I was 18. And so that's most familiar.
Walker [00:09:06]:
Sure.
Theresa [00:09:07]:
I mean, our siblings don't know who we are as an adult unless they're still with us in some way. No different than my children don't know me in my work setting. Right. They may come by the office, but that's not the same person that sits with clients or facilitates retreats. I mean, we have different areas of our life that our family isn't exposed to. So then we step back in our family system. Yeah. And our body's like, oh, I know this.
Theresa [00:09:42]:
And I remember, you know, first noticing that myself, probably, who, 23, four years ago, you know, with my ex husband's family that I think I had any awareness because, you know, I had this experience of him without his family, connected for a while. And then I remember the first time I saw him around his brothers and I was like, who is that? I don't know who you are. Yeah. And I remember saying something to him and he was like, I don't know what you're talking about.
Walker [00:10:26]:
Sure.
Theresa [00:10:27]:
I'm like, you literally became a different person. And he was like, I. Right. I mean, just had no awareness. And so for me, that was my first awareness that those things happened. Yeah. And then of course, I started observing and paying more attention. And then we had like a family, you know, dinner at his with his entire family and again, saw things come out and I was like, fascinating, you know, just like, just parts I hadn't seen.
Theresa [00:10:59]:
Sure. And again, having conversation on the way home and him being like, we do? And I was like, yeah. And he's like, I didn't even know that Those are the things that we did. I'm like, right, because you've always been doing them. And so. Yeah, but I still think of it in regards to physiology, safety, stress, you know, how much stress are we under? How much stress are they under? How much stress is in the family system? Right. That's happening. I mean, I often see, like, with my own family, like, people revert to certain roles that they played when we were younger.
Walker [00:11:46]:
Sure. How about you?
Theresa [00:11:49]:
Well, for sure. Until most. More recently, I would say in the last 10 or 11 years, I'm sure I revert to some roles that I'm not even aware of around my family, you know, that I just don't have any awareness of. I'm sure if we videotaped them, I could see them be like, oh, yeah.
Walker [00:12:15]:
Watch the gorillas.
Theresa [00:12:17]:
Right, right. But I'm typically an observer, you know, my. Around my family. I mean, I used to be like a jokester. I used to be a big storyteller. I used to want a lot of attention. I mean, there were a lot of roles that I played in my family that I don't play anymore. So that isn't interesting to me.
Theresa [00:12:44]:
I don't feel like I need the same, you know, energy exchange with them like I used to. So I feel like I more hold on to myself around my family now than I used to. So. But I still have to, like, be intentional about, you know, like when we were over last month for something, oh, birthdays, and we weren't going to be there for Thanksgiving because we were going to be with Libby. And. And so, you know, I was getting questions about who of my kids was going to be there. And I was like, I don't know. And, you know, this one's going to be here and, you know, I'll talk to these ones, but I don't know.
Theresa [00:13:43]:
And then, well, you know, the. They need to be there. And I, you know, and I said, I work really hard to not use guilt to try to encourage particular behavior out of my children, you know. And then, you know, there was the response, like, you know, well, that's not guilt. And I was like, but it is. You know, they. They each have their own life and their own autonomy, and I want them to choose to be here. But they may choose something else.
Walker [00:14:15]:
Sure.
Theresa [00:14:16]:
And I'm not going to try to make them do it even if I want that for them, because whatever those natural consequences would be, like, I believe that that's important.
Walker [00:14:28]:
Interesting.
Theresa [00:14:29]:
So. So I can tell them what I want. Right, right.
Walker [00:14:32]:
That's What I was thinking, it's just like. So it's an int. What I try to teach Libby is make intentional choices.
Theresa [00:14:38]:
Right. Right.
Walker [00:14:39]:
Not just, you know, you didn't think about it that way because when you're younger, you don't think about so many things. Like with your parents who are Both in their 80s.
Theresa [00:14:48]:
Right.
Walker [00:14:49]:
It's on my mind that time may be short. Maybe they'll live to be 110. I don't know.
Theresa [00:14:54]:
We don't know.
Walker [00:14:55]:
But.
Theresa [00:14:55]:
Right.
Walker [00:14:56]:
You know, if nature takes the course it's taken through our lifetimes.
Theresa [00:15:00]:
Right.
Walker [00:15:00]:
You just never know. And so I mention it to you all the time, but I don't think from my perspective, it's not a shaming piece and we're kind of switching topics. But it is interesting.
Theresa [00:15:10]:
Right.
Walker [00:15:12]:
Just to have those conversations, which is, hey, just keep in mind, you know, that I don't want you to have any regrets. And there's a way to walk around that. I guess the regrets piece could cause shame. But just understand, Grandma and Grandpa are going to be here forever.
Theresa [00:15:29]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:15:29]:
So make a. Make an intentional choice about it. Maybe split some time.
Theresa [00:15:34]:
Right, right. Options.
Walker [00:15:36]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:15:37]:
As opposed to demands. Yeah, right, right.
Walker [00:15:40]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:15:41]:
Right. I learned, you know, with one of my kids, you know, who has type 1 diabetes, I can't make him do anything.
Walker [00:15:51]:
Sure.
Theresa [00:15:51]:
Right. Like, I can teach him and I can give him information and I can explain my perspective, but what I knew is in order for him to make choices out of integrity, that was really all I could do.
Walker [00:16:04]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:16:05]:
Was to give him information, and then he had to make choices. And then he did. Right. He did learn. And.
Walker [00:16:14]:
Yeah. As he matured. Sure.
Theresa [00:16:15]:
Right.
Walker [00:16:16]:
Yes.
Theresa [00:16:17]:
Right.
Walker [00:16:17]:
But pushing.
Theresa [00:16:19]:
Right.
Walker [00:16:20]:
With many people, they just push back. Here comes the resistance.
Theresa [00:16:25]:
Right, right. And like, that's. So I'm aware, you know, that how I, you know, communicate or how I share information, you know, is very different than, like, maybe demonstrated, like, in my family system. So. But I also don't, you know, carry it. But I recognize that that is something that I have to do deliberately as opposed to just avoid saying anything. Because that's an option, too.
Walker [00:16:56]:
It is, yeah.
Theresa [00:16:58]:
Which I think happens, you know, we tend to avoid or confront.
Walker [00:17:02]:
So let's put that back in terms of how we revert to different ages when we're with family or different modes of behavior. The avoidance could be more prevalent in a situation like. And I don't know who we're talking to if it was your. A parent or a sibling, but. Oh, yeah, the kids need, you know, yeah. And I don't know what. How was your experience with that? I mean, it sounds like you didn't revert, but that would be easy to do.
Theresa [00:17:28]:
Oh, yeah. No, in that particular sudden, you become.
Walker [00:17:30]:
The young girl answering mom, if it was mom.
Theresa [00:17:33]:
Yeah, yeah. No, in that particular one, I didn't revert. I was just like. Yeah. You know, I said what I said, you know, and then I did, you know, tell my kids, grandma and grandpa would love to see you.
Walker [00:17:49]:
Nice.
Theresa [00:17:49]:
You know, so just, you know, be thoughtful. You know that they have their own sense of their own mortality and they want to spend time, you know, with you too. So. And it doesn't.
Walker [00:18:00]:
What a nice way of saying it. That's what I was looking for. Because my way was shaming.
Theresa [00:18:04]:
Oh.
Walker [00:18:05]:
Not intentionally, but it was more practical, which is. Yeah. People die.
Theresa [00:18:09]:
Oh, yeah.
Walker [00:18:10]:
You know, but that brings an element of shame versus the way you just said it. So say it for us again.
Theresa [00:18:15]:
Yeah, I just said, teach us again. Grandma and grandpa have their own sense of their mortality.
Walker [00:18:19]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:18:20]:
Right.
Walker [00:18:20]:
And they would like to spend time with you too.
Theresa [00:18:23]:
Right. And they would like to spend time with you.
Walker [00:18:24]:
That's so much better.
Theresa [00:18:25]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I know my mom did say something about, you know, I don't remember exactly, but it was something about them loving her or something. And I said, oh, no. I said, oh, no, mom, my children love you. It's just they have their own lives too.
Walker [00:18:49]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:18:50]:
And that's just not how I communicate with them.
Walker [00:18:53]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:18:53]:
So. And so the message to them was, you know, grandma and grandpa have their own sense of their mortality. Right. And they want to spend time with you.
Walker [00:19:06]:
Yeah. Nice.
Theresa [00:19:07]:
So, yeah. And everyone that was in town did go, so they did not go to the follow up reunion the next day except my youngest. And so, you know, and that again, is their choice. I mean, I'm glad that they chose to go on Thanksgiving and I'm glad they spent that time. And. And I also want them to know they have choices, but that has always been part of parenting, so.
Walker [00:19:37]:
Yeah, well, I mean, another aspect of what we're talking about is for when we're in that situation where somebody, a family member is wanting us to go along or whatever is, you know, your kids know, healthy boundaries and they know how to speak up for themselves. And so I think, you know, it can be really hard when you start getting that pressure. Well, we've had you one day because they want you more, you know, but, you know, I've got other obligations and being able to stand in that and feel good about yourself in the process is really important. And what I know about your children is they were fine.
Theresa [00:20:15]:
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Walker [00:20:17]:
You know.
Theresa [00:20:17]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:20:18]:
Despite what anybody else may have felt. But of course, the people that are feeling that are also going back to their inner child.
Theresa [00:20:27]:
Right.
Walker [00:20:27]:
Of abandonment itself.
Theresa [00:20:29]:
Oh, yeah.
Walker [00:20:30]:
You know, the loving me piece.
Theresa [00:20:31]:
Yeah. Choose me, love me, see me, value me.
Walker [00:20:34]:
As we all do.
Theresa [00:20:36]:
As we all do. Yeah.
Walker [00:20:38]:
So I had this thought. Do you. Oh, go ahead.
Theresa [00:20:40]:
No, go ahead.
Walker [00:20:40]:
I just, I don't want to lose it.
Theresa [00:20:42]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:20:44]:
A couple of things in the, in the process of interacting with family. It used to drive my ex crazy when I was around my siblings.
Theresa [00:20:53]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:20:54]:
Because of the way we act.
Theresa [00:20:56]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:20:56]:
And we do act different.
Theresa [00:20:58]:
Yes.
Walker [00:21:00]:
And I think it was threatening.
Theresa [00:21:03]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:21:04]:
Control.
Theresa [00:21:04]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:21:05]:
It could have been a million things. I'm not sure because we didn't have conversations like this.
Theresa [00:21:10]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:21:10]:
But it wasn't an. It wasn't a pleasant experience afterwards.
Theresa [00:21:17]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:21:17]:
To. Because the conversation would just be, you know.
Theresa [00:21:21]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:21:23]:
Very judgmental.
Theresa [00:21:24]:
Sure, sure.
Walker [00:21:25]:
In other words, I don't like you when you're around your family.
Theresa [00:21:28]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:21:31]:
And I don't know that it's necessarily bad to. As long as we're aware of it. Right. To step into how we interact with family. I like playing with my sisters.
Theresa [00:21:49]:
Yeah. And I. Oh, babe.
Walker [00:21:52]:
It's complex.
Theresa [00:21:53]:
It is. Because I think it can look like so many things. I mean, you know what I was thinking was I don't mind the plane. I don't mind the plane. You know, I don't like it when people aren't kind to each other. I don't like it when people are trying to control other people's behavior. You know, one of the things that I would say that I witnessed, you know, once really clearly was your loss of power. And that was really hard to watch, you know, as your partner, because I was like, he just lost all of his power.
Theresa [00:22:33]:
He just became a four year old little boy. And that was hard to see and not from a. I don't know, I guess it made me sad, you know, it didn't make me angry. I just was. I just hadn't ever seen that from you, you know, and so, you know, you're.
Walker [00:23:01]:
This is with siblings.
Theresa [00:23:02]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:23:03]:
Yeah. Well, I don't know what the situation was because obviously it was subconscious or not harmful for me.
Theresa [00:23:10]:
Oh, right. It was for sure subconscious. And I don't really, you know, I couldn't go back and be like, oh, this was happening then. And that's what that was About.
Walker [00:23:17]:
Right.
Theresa [00:23:18]:
I just remember witnessing it and being like, whoa. And I think that probably is common often in family situations where your role in the family was one of no power. And I don't mean you, just you walker. I mean in family systems.
Walker [00:23:35]:
Right.
Theresa [00:23:35]:
You know that you're going to have siblings who didn't have power and to find safety, reverted to, I don't know, a more dependent role or a more pleasing role, you know, because that's what was safe for them. I think some people, you know, if you have more passive parents, you're going to have a sibling that. Or non engaged or neglectful parents. Like you'll have a sibling who is like in charge. Right?
Walker [00:24:14]:
I have one.
Theresa [00:24:15]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:24:16]:
Because both of my parents were extremely neglectful.
Theresa [00:24:19]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:24:20]:
And we're on our own.
Theresa [00:24:21]:
Yeah. And so I think, you know, again, we step back into those, you know, roles, you know, that we played. You know, I did a family session, you know, the other day, you know, with adult, you know, siblings, because I'm, you know, trying to learn more, you know, about, you know, trying to help this person, you know, find more freedom. And for me, understanding the roles that people play in families is really helpful. And not just, you know, the person that I'm working with, but, you know, the role of the sibling or the role of the parent because it can help me figure out places that they get stuck emotionally that I may not see when they're in my office because they're not playing that role with me the same way they play it with their family.
Walker [00:25:10]:
Right.
Theresa [00:25:11]:
Like there may be some transference, countertransference that happens. Right, right. But it's not the same as putting them in a role with their family where then it's like, oh, well, I've never even seen that part. And I. That happens sometimes, even with spouses. Like, you know, maybe, you know, I'll work with somebody for a year or two and then they bring their spouse with them and then I'm like, oh, I have not seen that part of you. Right. And so this is not.
Theresa [00:25:42]:
It's not just our family, but any.
Walker [00:25:45]:
Different situations I've seen that happen with you in the differences situation. Sure. Not family.
Theresa [00:25:52]:
Yeah. And so parts of you come out, you know, and I think the best we can do is be aware of it.
Walker [00:26:01]:
Yes.
Theresa [00:26:03]:
And just keep practicing. Right. Yeah.
Walker [00:26:05]:
I mean, here's the question that I've got for you is, you know, it's. It isn't necessarily bad is what my premise is.
Walker [00:26:13]:
Right.
Walker [00:26:15]:
Unless it's harmful and we know it, but we still stay in the role or it's harmful and we don't know it.
Theresa [00:26:24]:
Right.
Walker [00:26:25]:
And so how do you strike that balance? How do you know? Because I just don't feel like being able to get back in. It's just, you know, you hear stories. Well, I haven't seen that person in years, and it was just like two peas in a pod, et cetera. And the only way that can be is that you're both reverting in some way to what you were like when that was going on. Does that make that a bad interaction? Not necessarily.
Theresa [00:26:51]:
No. I don't think it has to. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Walker [00:26:55]:
And the other thought I had was about siblings, which is be curious about who your siblings are as adults.
Theresa [00:27:00]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:27:01]:
Have that curious conversation. So you learn.
Theresa [00:27:05]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:27:06]:
How we're different. And that part is a challenge. But it's still interesting. I know I interact with at least one sibling.
Theresa [00:27:13]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:27:14]:
Way differently.
Theresa [00:27:15]:
Right.
Walker [00:27:15]:
Than I used to. I'm able to have direct conversation. You hurt me.
Theresa [00:27:20]:
Right.
Walker [00:27:20]:
When you did X, Y or Z. Yeah. I love you, but that hurt me.
Theresa [00:27:25]:
Yeah, yeah.
Walker [00:27:26]:
With a adult response.
Theresa [00:27:29]:
Yeah. Right, right. You're able to stay in your prefrontal cortex. Right. Yeah, yeah. Even if you're having an emotional response, it's not taking over. So. No, babe, I don't.
Theresa [00:27:44]:
I don't think it has to be bad. I don't. Again, I think, you know, it can be playful, it can be fun. I think what often happens is that one person isn't okay with the relationship the way it used to be, and they want it to shift, and maybe somebody doesn't want it to shift.
Walker [00:28:12]:
Sure.
Theresa [00:28:13]:
Right.
Walker [00:28:14]:
Sure.
Theresa [00:28:15]:
And so then you have a choice. Do you allow yourself to step back into that space in order to maintain relationship with that person? Do you risk the relationship having some level of abandonment if the person doesn't like how you've grown? Right. You know, one of the things that we talked about in school and. Ooh, it's going to be really pushing my vocabulary. But, you know, like, we. But we like homeostasis. Right. Like, we don't.
Theresa [00:28:58]:
We don't. We don't like it when one person changes the dynamic because then we can't predict what's going to happen and then we don't feel safe. Does that make sense? And so I think, like, being around our family, I think we can go in with an intention. Like, I'm going to hold my boundaries this time, and I'm going to be this way at Christmas. And then we get in there and then we Don't. Right. And so then we're. We're giving mixed messages.
Theresa [00:29:36]:
Right. Because we're not really clear. We are. We're not really clear yet. We just know that we don't like it, but we don't know how to do it. Well, we haven't. So. And if.
Theresa [00:29:52]:
So if we're only practicing it on holidays, we're probably not going to get good at it. Does that make sense? And so I think, you know, how do we practice it? Well, we have to practice it in other relationships, too. But maybe our partner relationship doesn't trigger us as much as our family system does.
Walker [00:30:19]:
Depends on the circumstance.
Theresa [00:30:21]:
Oh, sure. Yeah, sure. Anyway, I just think it's really complex. But no, I don't think it has to be negative. I just think that it's. If we grew up in a household where you said whatever was on your mind, that probably still happens when you're an adult. And if you grow up in a household where you avoided topics, that probably still happens as an adult. And so if we want it to be different, how do we do it? And how do we hold on to ourself? And I think anytime we change, it's messy.
Theresa [00:31:05]:
You know, we talk about the pendulum swinging. You know, it's, it's. It's hard for us to change, like, incrementally. You know, it's like in order for me to be around my family, and I'm using this in general terms, I can't be that because it's too easy for me to slide back. So I can't, I can't be. I can't walk in. If we're going to use, like, let's say, percentages, I can't be 5 percentage points different around my family. In order to maintain myself, we often need to be farther away from that.
Theresa [00:31:48]:
So maybe 50% different or 75% different in order to hold on to ourself around them. And so when we change, we tend to swing the pendulum all the way over here. And then maybe that doesn't work. And we're really trying to find this place in the middle. But I don't know how to get from here to here. I have to swing all the way over here in order to come back. But I think we get so much pushback when we swing all the way that it just takes so much energy that we go. We just, like, forget it.
Theresa [00:32:25]:
I'll just keep playing that role.
Walker [00:32:28]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:32:29]:
Yeah. Too much pushback.
Walker [00:32:31]:
I wonder. I'm thinking about My Inner Knowing. Checking in.
Theresa [00:32:35]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:32:36]:
And when I leave Even if I do step back into that role, I don't leave feeling bad most of the time. Last Thanksgiving, I've told, I've talked about this before on our show where we were playing a game and it got hyper competitive crazy. And then there was some passive aggressiveness that came out from my brother in law and then there was overt aggressiveness by me. I mean, not I'm going to beat you up, but you know, just words.
Theresa [00:33:01]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:33:02]:
I went into lawyer mode and it was ugly, you know, but in any event, most of the time I'm not. I don't have anxiety going in.
Theresa [00:33:13]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:33:13]:
I don't think. Anyway.
Theresa [00:33:14]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:33:15]:
And I don't have bad feelings coming out this. The thing with Libby was just interesting. Just I was like, I think we've been doing that.
Theresa [00:33:31]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:33:32]:
And so I'm trying, what I'm trying to do is not lump all of us together into how God awful, you know, it can be that I've lost all boundaries and it was just a train wreck to go see my family, et cetera. And I'm sure there are clients.
Theresa [00:33:48]:
Absolutely.
Walker [00:33:48]:
That, that is what that's like. Because there can be victimizers, right?
Theresa [00:33:56]:
Sure, sure. Yeah.
Walker [00:33:58]:
But it's not always that way.
Theresa [00:34:01]:
No, no.
Walker [00:34:01]:
And so I'm wondering, you know, if you, if you leave the family interaction and you use some introspection, how did that go? What am I feeling? If you feel steady and clear or whatever it is your guidance system is. You're knowing.
Theresa [00:34:23]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:34:23]:
Then to me. Was it bad? I don't think so.
Theresa [00:34:29]:
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. You know, I think it's such an individual process. I think your, your, your comment is helpful because I think, you know, can we do that in the middle of it too? I mean, not, you know, try. Yeah. I mean, not everybody just sees their family for the day. Right.
Theresa [00:34:48]:
I mean, there's plenty of people that travel and you're with your family for two days, five days, maybe seven days. Right? Yes. And so I think, you know, even if it's just a day, if you notice yourself anxious or, you know, depressed or angry, you know, can you go into another room and get grounded and breathe and, you know, I don't know, pause for a moment.
Walker [00:35:22]:
Absolutely.
Theresa [00:35:23]:
You know, listen to some bilateral music. Imagine roots crying out the bottoms of your feet trying to just get. Find yourself again?
Walker [00:35:33]:
Sure. 15 minute nap.
Theresa [00:35:35]:
A 15 minute nap? Yeah.
Walker [00:35:37]:
Meditate.
Theresa [00:35:38]:
Yeah, yeah.
Walker [00:35:39]:
Sit quietly in a chair and.
Theresa [00:35:41]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:35:41]:
Enjoy a cup of tea or glass of tea or whatever.
Theresa [00:35:45]:
Yeah, yeah.
Walker [00:35:45]:
To get yourself present Right, right.
Theresa [00:35:49]:
And we talked about this a little bit on one of the other episodes, which is, you know, go into your observer. I think if you can enter, you know, family gatherings like that and just watch, I think you'll learn a lot about your system and you know, more likely to understand the role, you know, that you play in the system. But again, understand that that's been cultivated our entire life. You know, I have a client right now who is living had, you know, moved back home to live with their parent and just been struggling so much. And in our conversation recently, recognizing that, it's like I'm just a teenager again, you know, like I'm in the same house and I'm in my siblings room and it's decorated the same and the living room's the same and the kitchen's the same and everything's the same. And when I lived here the last time, it was not good. It's not good. And so even though it's not that, you know, anymore, you know, they haven't reverted to that period of time literally, emotionally, it's taking them back, you know, being around their parent, being in the same surroundings, you know, again, their body is responding.
Walker [00:37:21]:
Back to your hometown.
Theresa [00:37:22]:
Back to your hometown. Sure.
Walker [00:37:24]:
People went to school, school with all those things contribute to this.
Theresa [00:37:28]:
Oh yeah. I mean, it can no different if people go to a high school reunion. Right, right. I mean, that's why I've never gone.
Walker [00:37:37]:
I don't know.
Theresa [00:37:38]:
Yeah, we revert right back to our roles. Yeah, yeah. No, I went, I think maybe twice. And that was difficult because I'm like, whew. I am so far away from that that it was just hard, you know, to. I don't want to go back to that role, you know, that I was playing when I was a teenager. I was glad to be done with high school. So again, respecting the physiology piece of it, you know, that what's familiar, you know, what we talked about, you know, with her is because everything's decorated the same, you know, could she even just get different bedding, you know, spend 50 bucks on a seven piece comforter and sheet set that's not her old sister's bedroom? Does that make sense? You know, can you just take down what's on the walls and put it under the bed and then if your parents want to put it back when you're not there anymore, you know, like it's still there, but you've created a space that is where you are in your life right now.
Theresa [00:38:44]:
Not, you know, where you were 35 years ago. And so, and it does matter. I just don't think we pay attention to it. And so, so some of this isn't. I just want it to not be this like shame reaction, you know, like I'm just not doing it right when I'm around my family.
Walker [00:39:04]:
Right.
Theresa [00:39:05]:
I want there to be an understanding that this is a real physiological thing that happens. Our body, even if we're not going to our parents house or you know, something like that, it can again, still being around the people that we are, we're most familiar with at a particular time in our life, our body goes there. I mean, you know, what it makes me think of is, you know, like people who have Alzheimer's and they play music that they liked in their teens and twenties and their body goes right back there. Right, right. And they're able to communicate and dance and sing and you know, I mean, it just. Their body has a response to this too. It's not just your mind.
Walker [00:39:49]:
Right.
Theresa [00:39:50]:
And so I just want that to be clear. And so observer is the, you know, walking in and being like, oh, okay, yeah. Like I know that about my dad and my brother and how they interact. I'm just seeing it differently. Instead of being reactive to it, I'm just like, oh, right. This is what my mother and my brother, you know, that's what their relationship is. Or this is what my two siblings relationship is. Whatever.
Theresa [00:40:27]:
If we can go in it with that intention that we are experimenting and practicing, that we're here to learn as opposed to get sucked into the energy of what is familiar, I think we can have a different experience. But a lot of people have anxiety around family gatherings and they feel like they have to go. They'll get a lot of guilt or shame thrown at them if they don't. Or they just avoid completely. Yeah. But it is a particularly stressful time for people, even if you don't notice stress around your siblings. I'm just saying that for other people it's very stressful.
Walker [00:41:23]:
Sure. And I guess ultimately it comes back to how do you. And we've talked about a few things you can do, but how do you maintain the best relationship that you can have, whatever it may be? It may not be the greatest relationship ever, but it's still relationship with family when you're not together but once a year or a few times a year and still hold on to yourself.
Theresa [00:41:56]:
Yeah. You know, for me, it would be willing to have a converse. It would be willing to have a conversation with your parents or your siblings. It's having words that are not threatening. But again, if it's a relationship that you're wanting, that you're reinforcing, that I want connection with you. I just can't do this, that old role anymore. It takes me to a place that's not good for me. It's not healthy for me.
Theresa [00:42:36]:
I don't like that part of myself. But I think being what?
Walker [00:42:42]:
Let me stop for a second. So what if the response is, what the hell are you talking about?
Theresa [00:42:49]:
Yeah, yeah. I'm just aware that when I'm around you, I don't like how I act. Whether you see it or not, I'm snarkier. Whether you see it or not, I'm more passive aggressive. And I leave here and I don't feel good about myself.
Walker [00:43:09]:
Right.
Theresa [00:43:09]:
I don't want that anymore. I want relationship with you. I just don't want to have it be that way because I don't feel good when I leave here. And it doesn't mean that you won't have family members that are dismissive of that. But it's really about you holding on to yourself. Right. You being direct about what you need. It doesn't mean you're going to get what you need or what.
Theresa [00:43:35]:
Right.
Walker [00:43:36]:
Well, it's scary. People want to hold on to that because it's scary. And it's not. It can be abusive. Right. That just can be an aspect of all this. But it can also just be fear of losing that, you know, whatever there is left of that relationship. You know what I'm saying?
Theresa [00:43:56]:
Sure.
Walker [00:43:57]:
I think people. It can react. Well, I don't want to change that because then what do we have. If you're not going to have contact throughout the year and have conversation.
Theresa [00:44:09]:
Right, right. Yeah.
Walker [00:44:11]:
To see each other as you are now. So that's just an added layer of, you know, what do you do going forward? And so it just strikes me that it's a process with family of moving in that direction versus you just show up once a year and have to go through all this. But some. That's maybe really simplistic. You have to deal with it all the time.
Theresa [00:44:35]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. What I was talking about earlier, you know, practicing and holding on to yourself with every interaction, you know, whether it's in person or on the phone. If we keep giving mixed messages, people are just gonna hope that we don't follow through.
Walker [00:44:59]:
Quit acting so weird.
Theresa [00:45:01]:
Yeah, yeah.
Walker [00:45:02]:
But if we really do, you're really just not yourself.
Theresa [00:45:05]:
Right. Actually, I am more myself than I have been.
Walker [00:45:11]:
To me, I was 2540 years ago or whatever.
Theresa [00:45:14]:
Yeah, yeah. But I think it requires us to do our work, you know, in regards to, you know, who am I separate from my family? And you know, for some people, that isn't safe and they're not going to find out who they are separate from their family. And that's okay. They get that choice. I just wanted to find out who I was separate from my family. I didn't want to play a role, you know, that I had learned. It wasn't great, my role. I mean, maybe I got some attention, you know, maybe I got laughs.
Theresa [00:45:51]:
I mean, I was a good storyteller, but it was all pretend. It was all about safety. It wasn't about me knowing who I was. It wasn't about me being able to hold on to myself or making decisions for myself. I mean, at some level it was all fear based. And so. And what I feel fortunate about in my family is that I feel like with the exception of one sibling who just doesn't know me anymore.
Theresa [00:46:31]:
I think.
Theresa [00:46:32]:
All of my siblings and my parents have adapted to who I am. I'm not saying they like it all the time, but I don't really get pushback. So in that regard it's been successful. They haven't abandoned me. I have relationship and I think it's healthier than it ever was.
Walker [00:47:04]:
I'm just thinking of people looking back with nostalgia, you know, you remember what Theresa, she was such a good storyteller, you know, I just wonder what happened to the joy in her life, you.
Walker [00:47:14]:
Know.
Walker [00:47:17]:
Maybe that sort of stuff. And my point being, we have to stand within our own truth, right?
Theresa [00:47:24]:
Absolutely.
Walker [00:47:25]:
That I like who I am. If we're working on ourselves. I like who I am.
Theresa [00:47:29]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:47:30]:
And I'm okay if you're nostalgic about who I used to be, but it's not who I am today. And I can love you regardless.
Theresa [00:47:38]:
Right, Right. Yeah. If we could allow people to be different, you know what I would say for the people listening as you step into the holidays, can you allow people to be different?
Walker [00:47:55]:
Let's turn that mirror around.
Theresa [00:47:57]:
Right?
Walker [00:47:57]:
Yeah. It's true.
Theresa [00:47:58]:
Can you allow it to. Right, Right. Someone to be in a different role or are you wanting them to be predictable? Because we can want that for ourselves to be in a new role, but not want the people around us to be in a new role. Right. And so we're so complex. We are so flex. So can we allow that as well for the people in our family and our friends and our partner. And our partner.
Theresa [00:48:26]:
Right. Because that's tricky too, you know. You know, we've heard a lot of stuff over the years. People don't really change. And that's absolutely not true.
Walker [00:48:35]:
Right.
Theresa [00:48:36]:
If they're making effort to change, we actually can get healthier. Or. I don't even know why I'd have a job. But. But can we allow our children to grow? Can we allow them to be someone different than they were when they left the house, 18, young adult, whatever? Or do we want them to stay in a role when, you know, when it was most safe? So. Yeah. So. Yes.
Theresa [00:49:14]:
Look in the mirror. Can we allow it to.
Walker [00:49:17]:
Yeah. And also the pause between stimulus and response, as we've talked about many times.
Theresa [00:49:24]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:49:25]:
We learn that every time we meditate.
Theresa [00:49:27]:
Yes.
Walker [00:49:28]:
To incline our minds to more of that. And I think at this time of year, that's really important, especially when all this is going on. You're feeling the anxiety, etc. To check in so that you're not reactive. Because when you're reactive, you're much more likely to just drop right back into that old spot. Right?
Theresa [00:49:47]:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's interesting having a conversation today with someone who was talking about how they, you know, they make a. A commitment essentially to do Christmas different every year, and then they do the same thing every year, and they're like, why do we keep doing that? Right. And I was just saying, you know, for me, too, I mean, you know, I wanted, you know, Christmas to be different, and I just keep every year doing a little bit different. A little bit different, a little bit different, you know, recognizing that, you know, it may be different for my kids, but, you know, they aren't, you know, 1, 6, 10, and 14 anymore. And, you know, am I buying things for them that mean anything out of some expectation or old story or sense of, you know, needing them to have the perfect experience or, you know, can I. Can I risk an epic fail by doing something different? And so to me, same.
Theresa [00:51:08]:
Am I willing to risk doing something different? Yeah. That might be respectful of where they are now. And it can still be fun. You know, like last year I bought, for the first time, everybody got matching pajamas. I'd never done that before. And then it was funny because we're not Jewish, but I bought Hanukkah pajamas, but I didn't know that. I just liked them because they were blue. And everybody thought it was funny, but it was nice, you know, I just keep trying new things.
Theresa [00:51:45]:
This year I bought a big group gift for my kids, something that they could do together. So. And maybe they'll be like, what the heck?
Walker [00:51:56]:
Or maybe their next will be they're all doing it together.
Theresa [00:52:00]:
Right. And maybe so. I don't know.
Walker [00:52:02]:
It's that parental like wish, you know.
Theresa [00:52:07]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:52:07]:
And it may be or may not. We'll see.
Theresa [00:52:09]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:52:10]:
Be interesting. I'll bet it is, though.
Theresa [00:52:11]:
Yeah. It'll be interesting.
Walker [00:52:13]:
At least with a couple. Maybe all.
Theresa [00:52:16]:
So always experimenting.
Walker [00:52:19]:
I like it.
Theresa [00:52:20]:
Yeah. Just willing to risk. I mean, I think it's what you were saying earlier is, am I willing to risk loss? I think it's hard. I don't know. Often that we are.
Walker [00:52:40]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:52:42]:
What are you thinking?
Walker [00:52:43]:
Oh, that. I just need to give the whole exchange with Libby some thought. I want to be as supportive as I can for her to be stronger in getting through the stormy seas.
Theresa [00:53:00]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:53:03]:
And I think I do a pretty good job of that. But a few times we were not in that space. Yeah. And it wasn't a bad interaction. I didn't think we. It was anything. No, there was nothing. Nobody was angry, nobody was upset or anything else.
Walker [00:53:25]:
It just was our speech.
Theresa [00:53:29]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:53:33]:
But we both thought we were really cute.
Theresa [00:53:35]:
Sure.
Walker [00:53:39]:
But when you're talking about, can I accept change? And I don't think that's me trying to. And sorry, this is personal processing. But it is fascinating to hold on to that. Maybe there's a piece. So that's what I want to give some more thought to because I like it when she talks business. Because I just sit there with wonder.
Theresa [00:54:01]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:54:02]:
Like, where did that person come from? You rock. You know, that is so cool.
Theresa [00:54:07]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:54:08]:
And then I also like her kind, you know, funny younger self too.
Theresa [00:54:12]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:54:14]:
So anyway.
Theresa [00:54:15]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:54:16]:
Fascinating.
Theresa [00:54:17]:
Yeah. Again, I don't think it has to be bad. I just think being aware of it and. And again, is it. Is it playful or is it really about safety and fear and again.
Walker [00:54:31]:
Oh, gosh.
Theresa [00:54:32]:
Yeah. I mean, I just think all we can do is pay attention and see.
Walker [00:54:38]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, hopefully it's not about that, but I don't know. Now you got me wondering. Oh, no, I. There was a lot of stress. She started the new job. It's scary.
Walker [00:54:53]:
There's a lot of pressure with some really harsh. What do they call it, measures that they have to meet.
Theresa [00:55:05]:
Sure, sure.
Walker [00:55:05]:
You know, metrics. Harsh metrics. In this new job she has. And I was thinking maybe that was, you know, it was safe to not have to deal with all that and to get younger, you know, and then maybe I was responding, but maybe I started it. I don't know.
Theresa [00:55:23]:
Yeah. Who knows? You know, it's interesting as you talk about it, it makes me think about, you know, when I was. After I lost the baby and almost died, and I was in the icu, you know, my mom coming, and I absolutely was a little girl. You know, I was afraid, confused, and the best thing she could do for me was to nurture me like I was.
Walker [00:56:10]:
Right.
Theresa [00:56:11]:
Right. Her moving into an adult space and trying to cognitively talk me out of my fear would not have been helpful.
Walker [00:56:20]:
Right.
Theresa [00:56:21]:
For me, her allowing me to be in that space when I was afraid, not living there, because that wouldn't have been helpful either. But in that, you know, level of distress, you know, that my mom could allow me to be a little girl for a while. Yeah. Was helpful.
Walker [00:56:46]:
Well, it's, I think, an important point, too, because I think I myself, in this conversation, have been putting some judgment on it. Right.
Theresa [00:56:57]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:56:58]:
Sometimes it just is. We just are, and it's what we need in that moment.
Theresa [00:57:03]:
Right, Right.
Walker [00:57:04]:
You just need it to be held.
Theresa [00:57:06]:
Right, Right.
Walker [00:57:07]:
You know?
Theresa [00:57:08]:
Yeah. You know, it's interesting, babe, because you brought it up and. And I didn't know, you know, until we sat down, but when I look back, you know, in those, know, three, four days that we spent with her, I didn't even notice.
Walker [00:57:28]:
Oh, I thought you said. Yeah, I. I noticed that I just hadn't said something.
Theresa [00:57:32]:
No, no, no, no. I have noticed that happen in the past. In the past, sure. Right. No, I didn't notice. It didn't stick out to me, so I didn't. I. So even if it was happening, there wasn't a.
Theresa [00:57:48]:
Ooh, what's that about happening for me? So.
Walker [00:57:52]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:57:52]:
Yeah. And so maybe it was because, you know, I knew she was in distress. You know, I mean, I know it's not how she and I converse, you know, when she and I were talking about, you know, the stressful things.
Walker [00:58:08]:
Sure.
Theresa [00:58:08]:
You know, but I haven't been around that long.
Walker [00:58:12]:
I would agree it wasn't extreme. It was just enough that I noticed.
Theresa [00:58:15]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:58:16]:
I could probably think of two instances.
Theresa [00:58:18]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:58:19]:
But just interesting.
Theresa [00:58:21]:
It is interesting just to pay attention.
Walker [00:58:23]:
And not necessarily bad.
Theresa [00:58:25]:
Right.
Walker [00:58:25]:
Just what we both needed at that moment.
Theresa [00:58:29]:
Again, all of that.
Walker [00:58:30]:
Also, that's part of just observing our lives. Right.
Theresa [00:58:35]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:58:35]:
Why did I do that? And was. Do I want that?
Theresa [00:58:40]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:58:42]:
Be intentional.
Theresa [00:58:43]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:58:44]:
Or try to be.
Theresa [00:58:45]:
Well, try to be. Right.
Walker [00:58:46]:
Because we all slide in and out of that. Right.
Theresa [00:58:49]:
Sure. And is it even something that's worth having a conversation about if it isn't something that feels like it's been harmful.
Walker [00:58:59]:
Right, agreed.
Theresa [00:59:00]:
I mean, I'm not saying this is easy stuff. None of this is easy.
Walker [00:59:03]:
No.
Theresa [00:59:04]:
Right. But you know what we don't want too right. Is if it really was something that wasn't detrimental to you, it's not impacting your relationship. I mean, you've opened the door. You've given her permission many times the last several years to let you know if she's struggling with something.
Walker [00:59:25]:
Right.
Theresa [00:59:25]:
And so, you know, to me it's kind of like, is it one of those situations in this case with you, with her, Is it kind of like the over apologizing where I'm so observant of my relationship with her? I'm trying to make sure I don't do anything that's harmful. And so then are you valuing it as harmful when maybe it wasn't? I mean, I don't know, babe. I mean, I'm just. I'm just saying that I think it's kind of like again, the pendulum swinging right. When we're trying to create change, it's hard to know where the balance is. So, I mean, I'm not saying. I know. I'm just.
Theresa [01:00:07]:
It's just what's coming to mind. And maybe it was fine and maybe it was the nurturing she needed and maybe she needed that playful piece. I don't know. I just know she is trying to find her way and it's hard and scary and uncertain.
Walker [01:00:27]:
Yeah, me too.
Theresa [01:00:29]:
Yeah. Yeah, me too.
Walker [01:00:32]:
Even with all my wisdom.
Theresa [01:00:34]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for the conversation, babe. Thank you.
Walker [01:00:40]:
I love you.
Theresa [01:00:40]:
Yeah, I love you too. Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth and we strengthen, strive to be more compassionate every day.
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life. Each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path. Well, hello.
Theresa [00:00:32]:
Well, hello. How are you?
Walker [00:00:35]:
I'm great.
Theresa [00:00:36]:
Good.
Walker [00:00:37]:
I'm great. Yeah.
Theresa [00:00:38]:
Good.
Walker [00:00:41]:
How about you? How are you?
Theresa [00:00:42]:
I'm good. Good. Yeah. It's been a while since we recorded because we had recorded so many.
Walker [00:00:48]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:00:49]:
And so it's just like getting back into the groove. Yeah. So holidays just passed. More coming up.
Walker [00:01:02]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:01:04]:
And so talking about the anxiety that can come around the holidays, as well as the joyous times and then the experience of reverting back to younger emotional parts of ourself when we're around family.
Walker [00:01:27]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:01:28]:
Yeah. So right before we started, you mentioned something, but you didn't give me specifics. So where do you want to start?
Walker [00:01:37]:
Oh, I. Wherever you want to start.
Theresa [00:01:43]:
Oh, well, go ahead. You said something about.
Walker [00:01:46]:
Yeah. So we went to where my daughter lives to see her.
Theresa [00:01:51]:
Yes.
Walker [00:01:52]:
And she's 24.
Theresa [00:01:53]:
Yes.
Walker [00:01:54]:
And as you know, was planes, trains and automobiles for that week, et cetera. But that is not what it is. In any event, this was her first hosting of Thanksgiving, right?
Theresa [00:02:03]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:02:04]:
And it has nothing to do really with that, but I noticed that with. She's my only child, right.
Theresa [00:02:15]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:02:16]:
We talk baby all the time. Did you notice that?
Theresa [00:02:21]:
Well, I have noticed that. Yeah.
Walker [00:02:24]:
Yeah, she does. And I do, too.
Theresa [00:02:26]:
Yeah. Okay, well, tell us more.
Walker [00:02:30]:
Just. I don't understand that.
Walker [00:02:32]:
I'm.
Walker [00:02:33]:
I just. I was wondering, you know, afterwards if that's something that I've always done with her, which wouldn't surprise me. She's my baby girl, right.
Theresa [00:02:46]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:02:47]:
But she's my baby, period. I don't. I honestly don't know what it's about. It just. We both did it and it was. It was definitely falling back into a role.
Theresa [00:03:10]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:03:10]:
Because she speaks business now.
Theresa [00:03:13]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:03:14]:
And she's very mature and professional when she's talking about business. But we were both, like, young, like six, maybe younger. And not really because we had some great conversations.
Theresa [00:03:30]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:03:31]:
Significant, you know, substantial topics and vulnerable topics, those sorts of things.
Theresa [00:03:35]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:03:36]:
You engaged her around some of the things that we're doing, and there were. She was mature.
Theresa [00:03:41]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:03:42]:
With you. But when we were out doing activities, she and I would do that.
Theresa [00:03:47]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:03:49]:
We didn't do it during the game that we played.
Theresa [00:03:51]:
Yeah, yeah. True, true. Yeah.
Walker [00:03:56]:
So what do you suppose that is in the most kind way that you can put it.
Theresa [00:04:06]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:04:07]:
Because my little boy could get his feelings hurt really fast on this topic. It's a tender relationship, you know, I mean.
Theresa [00:04:15]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:04:16]:
When. When I got divorced, we had a rough patch.
Theresa [00:04:23]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:04:23]:
When she was 18 or 17. And it's taken a lot of work on my part, which was needed. And she's done a lot of work, too.
Theresa [00:04:34]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:04:34]:
But that was my responsibility.
Theresa [00:04:39]:
Sure.
Walker [00:04:40]:
And so it is interesting. And she looks up to me for advice.
Theresa [00:04:44]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:04:44]:
You know, calls about advice and always compliments how much I know and how wise I am, all those things. And I know a thing or two. I've been on the planet for quite some time now, but parts of me are still a little boy.
Theresa [00:05:02]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:05:04]:
Hence, part of that is good, and part of it maybe not so much.
Theresa [00:05:11]:
Hmm. So when I think about it, I'm initially thinking about it more in general. I think about it from a physiology perspective that under stress, we go to our oldest patterns in, you know, part of training is teaching our body that it can do other things, but when situations are, you know, more unknown. And Thanksgiving for us was more unknown.
Walker [00:05:50]:
Sure.
Theresa [00:05:50]:
Right. New place that she's living. New place she's living in, spending time with her, you know, boyfriend's family.
Walker [00:06:01]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:06:01]:
Just the whole, you know, process, you know, was new.
Walker [00:06:05]:
Different city.
Theresa [00:06:05]:
Different city. Right. I mean, we had been traveling with a certain amount of chaos for four days before that.
Walker [00:06:13]:
Sure.
Theresa [00:06:15]:
And so I think there were a lot of things that contribute to how far we regress and how long. And how long we regress. Sure. And there's some questions I had that came up when you started sharing it, because this isn't something we've talked about. So, I mean, about Thanksgiving.
Walker [00:06:35]:
Right.
Theresa [00:06:35]:
And so. So knowing that. That our body likes what's familiar in order to find safety. And so I think you also hadn't seen each other in person for over a year.
Walker [00:06:56]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:06:57]:
And so I think, particularly when we've had some trauma in our relationship, that we tend even physically, not just emotionally, mentally, but physically, you know, like, kind of, where do I fit? You know, here. Our body likes to know what's coming. It's always predicting what's coming. Literally, it's always predicting what's coming. It's why we can drive places. We always drive without even thinking about it, unless something unpredictable happens. Our body likes that efficiency. It likes the known.
Theresa [00:07:38]:
And so I think. And again, it's looking for safety. So I think about it from that perspective and then, I don't know, I mean, the thought that comes to mind, babe, is maybe that six year old piece was a time that felt most safe in your relationship. Maybe it was more playful then, maybe it was more connected then. Maybe it was, I don't know, more precious in some way. Yeah, yeah.
Walker [00:08:21]:
Till she was about 12.
Theresa [00:08:23]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:08:24]:
And that's a typical, you know, evolution, but it is interesting.
Theresa [00:08:30]:
Yeah. So I think about it physiologically first and you know, there was a movie, I wish I could remember for sure what it was called years ago. I think it was called the Family Stone, but I don't remember exactly. But it was a holiday movie and I think it was about that, like, you know, when people get around their family, they revert to the age they were when they kind of like distanced from the family because it's like, well, I knew you, I lived with you until I was 18. And so that's most familiar.
Walker [00:09:06]:
Sure.
Theresa [00:09:07]:
I mean, our siblings don't know who we are as an adult unless they're still with us in some way. No different than my children don't know me in my work setting. Right. They may come by the office, but that's not the same person that sits with clients or facilitates retreats. I mean, we have different areas of our life that our family isn't exposed to. So then we step back in our family system. Yeah. And our body's like, oh, I know this.
Theresa [00:09:42]:
And I remember, you know, first noticing that myself, probably, who, 23, four years ago, you know, with my ex husband's family that I think I had any awareness because, you know, I had this experience of him without his family, connected for a while. And then I remember the first time I saw him around his brothers and I was like, who is that? I don't know who you are. Yeah. And I remember saying something to him and he was like, I don't know what you're talking about.
Walker [00:10:26]:
Sure.
Theresa [00:10:27]:
I'm like, you literally became a different person. And he was like, I. Right. I mean, just had no awareness. And so for me, that was my first awareness that those things happened. Yeah. And then of course, I started observing and paying more attention. And then we had like a family, you know, dinner at his with his entire family and again, saw things come out and I was like, fascinating, you know, just like, just parts I hadn't seen.
Theresa [00:10:59]:
Sure. And again, having conversation on the way home and him being like, we do? And I was like, yeah. And he's like, I didn't even know that Those are the things that we did. I'm like, right, because you've always been doing them. And so. Yeah, but I still think of it in regards to physiology, safety, stress, you know, how much stress are we under? How much stress are they under? How much stress is in the family system? Right. That's happening. I mean, I often see, like, with my own family, like, people revert to certain roles that they played when we were younger.
Walker [00:11:46]:
Sure. How about you?
Theresa [00:11:49]:
Well, for sure. Until most. More recently, I would say in the last 10 or 11 years, I'm sure I revert to some roles that I'm not even aware of around my family, you know, that I just don't have any awareness of. I'm sure if we videotaped them, I could see them be like, oh, yeah.
Walker [00:12:15]:
Watch the gorillas.
Theresa [00:12:17]:
Right, right. But I'm typically an observer, you know, my. Around my family. I mean, I used to be like a jokester. I used to be a big storyteller. I used to want a lot of attention. I mean, there were a lot of roles that I played in my family that I don't play anymore. So that isn't interesting to me.
Theresa [00:12:44]:
I don't feel like I need the same, you know, energy exchange with them like I used to. So I feel like I more hold on to myself around my family now than I used to. So. But I still have to, like, be intentional about, you know, like when we were over last month for something, oh, birthdays, and we weren't going to be there for Thanksgiving because we were going to be with Libby. And. And so, you know, I was getting questions about who of my kids was going to be there. And I was like, I don't know. And, you know, this one's going to be here and, you know, I'll talk to these ones, but I don't know.
Theresa [00:13:43]:
And then, well, you know, the. They need to be there. And I, you know, and I said, I work really hard to not use guilt to try to encourage particular behavior out of my children, you know. And then, you know, there was the response, like, you know, well, that's not guilt. And I was like, but it is. You know, they. They each have their own life and their own autonomy, and I want them to choose to be here. But they may choose something else.
Walker [00:14:15]:
Sure.
Theresa [00:14:16]:
And I'm not going to try to make them do it even if I want that for them, because whatever those natural consequences would be, like, I believe that that's important.
Walker [00:14:28]:
Interesting.
Theresa [00:14:29]:
So. So I can tell them what I want. Right, right.
Walker [00:14:32]:
That's What I was thinking, it's just like. So it's an int. What I try to teach Libby is make intentional choices.
Theresa [00:14:38]:
Right. Right.
Walker [00:14:39]:
Not just, you know, you didn't think about it that way because when you're younger, you don't think about so many things. Like with your parents who are Both in their 80s.
Theresa [00:14:48]:
Right.
Walker [00:14:49]:
It's on my mind that time may be short. Maybe they'll live to be 110. I don't know.
Theresa [00:14:54]:
We don't know.
Walker [00:14:55]:
But.
Theresa [00:14:55]:
Right.
Walker [00:14:56]:
You know, if nature takes the course it's taken through our lifetimes.
Theresa [00:15:00]:
Right.
Walker [00:15:00]:
You just never know. And so I mention it to you all the time, but I don't think from my perspective, it's not a shaming piece and we're kind of switching topics. But it is interesting.
Theresa [00:15:10]:
Right.
Walker [00:15:12]:
Just to have those conversations, which is, hey, just keep in mind, you know, that I don't want you to have any regrets. And there's a way to walk around that. I guess the regrets piece could cause shame. But just understand, Grandma and Grandpa are going to be here forever.
Theresa [00:15:29]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:15:29]:
So make a. Make an intentional choice about it. Maybe split some time.
Theresa [00:15:34]:
Right, right. Options.
Walker [00:15:36]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:15:37]:
As opposed to demands. Yeah, right, right.
Walker [00:15:40]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:15:41]:
Right. I learned, you know, with one of my kids, you know, who has type 1 diabetes, I can't make him do anything.
Walker [00:15:51]:
Sure.
Theresa [00:15:51]:
Right. Like, I can teach him and I can give him information and I can explain my perspective, but what I knew is in order for him to make choices out of integrity, that was really all I could do.
Walker [00:16:04]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:16:05]:
Was to give him information, and then he had to make choices. And then he did. Right. He did learn. And.
Walker [00:16:14]:
Yeah. As he matured. Sure.
Theresa [00:16:15]:
Right.
Walker [00:16:16]:
Yes.
Theresa [00:16:17]:
Right.
Walker [00:16:17]:
But pushing.
Theresa [00:16:19]:
Right.
Walker [00:16:20]:
With many people, they just push back. Here comes the resistance.
Theresa [00:16:25]:
Right, right. And like, that's. So I'm aware, you know, that how I, you know, communicate or how I share information, you know, is very different than, like, maybe demonstrated, like, in my family system. So. But I also don't, you know, carry it. But I recognize that that is something that I have to do deliberately as opposed to just avoid saying anything. Because that's an option, too.
Walker [00:16:56]:
It is, yeah.
Theresa [00:16:58]:
Which I think happens, you know, we tend to avoid or confront.
Walker [00:17:02]:
So let's put that back in terms of how we revert to different ages when we're with family or different modes of behavior. The avoidance could be more prevalent in a situation like. And I don't know who we're talking to if it was your. A parent or a sibling, but. Oh, yeah, the kids need, you know, yeah. And I don't know what. How was your experience with that? I mean, it sounds like you didn't revert, but that would be easy to do.
Theresa [00:17:28]:
Oh, yeah. No, in that particular sudden, you become.
Walker [00:17:30]:
The young girl answering mom, if it was mom.
Theresa [00:17:33]:
Yeah, yeah. No, in that particular one, I didn't revert. I was just like. Yeah. You know, I said what I said, you know, and then I did, you know, tell my kids, grandma and grandpa would love to see you.
Walker [00:17:49]:
Nice.
Theresa [00:17:49]:
You know, so just, you know, be thoughtful. You know that they have their own sense of their own mortality and they want to spend time, you know, with you too. So. And it doesn't.
Walker [00:18:00]:
What a nice way of saying it. That's what I was looking for. Because my way was shaming.
Theresa [00:18:04]:
Oh.
Walker [00:18:05]:
Not intentionally, but it was more practical, which is. Yeah. People die.
Theresa [00:18:09]:
Oh, yeah.
Walker [00:18:10]:
You know, but that brings an element of shame versus the way you just said it. So say it for us again.
Theresa [00:18:15]:
Yeah, I just said, teach us again. Grandma and grandpa have their own sense of their mortality.
Walker [00:18:19]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:18:20]:
Right.
Walker [00:18:20]:
And they would like to spend time with you too.
Theresa [00:18:23]:
Right. And they would like to spend time with you.
Walker [00:18:24]:
That's so much better.
Theresa [00:18:25]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I know my mom did say something about, you know, I don't remember exactly, but it was something about them loving her or something. And I said, oh, no. I said, oh, no, mom, my children love you. It's just they have their own lives too.
Walker [00:18:49]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:18:50]:
And that's just not how I communicate with them.
Walker [00:18:53]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:18:53]:
So. And so the message to them was, you know, grandma and grandpa have their own sense of their mortality. Right. And they want to spend time with you.
Walker [00:19:06]:
Yeah. Nice.
Theresa [00:19:07]:
So, yeah. And everyone that was in town did go, so they did not go to the follow up reunion the next day except my youngest. And so, you know, and that again, is their choice. I mean, I'm glad that they chose to go on Thanksgiving and I'm glad they spent that time. And. And I also want them to know they have choices, but that has always been part of parenting, so.
Walker [00:19:37]:
Yeah, well, I mean, another aspect of what we're talking about is for when we're in that situation where somebody, a family member is wanting us to go along or whatever is, you know, your kids know, healthy boundaries and they know how to speak up for themselves. And so I think, you know, it can be really hard when you start getting that pressure. Well, we've had you one day because they want you more, you know, but, you know, I've got other obligations and being able to stand in that and feel good about yourself in the process is really important. And what I know about your children is they were fine.
Theresa [00:20:15]:
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Walker [00:20:17]:
You know.
Theresa [00:20:17]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:20:18]:
Despite what anybody else may have felt. But of course, the people that are feeling that are also going back to their inner child.
Theresa [00:20:27]:
Right.
Walker [00:20:27]:
Of abandonment itself.
Theresa [00:20:29]:
Oh, yeah.
Walker [00:20:30]:
You know, the loving me piece.
Theresa [00:20:31]:
Yeah. Choose me, love me, see me, value me.
Walker [00:20:34]:
As we all do.
Theresa [00:20:36]:
As we all do. Yeah.
Walker [00:20:38]:
So I had this thought. Do you. Oh, go ahead.
Theresa [00:20:40]:
No, go ahead.
Walker [00:20:40]:
I just, I don't want to lose it.
Theresa [00:20:42]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:20:44]:
A couple of things in the, in the process of interacting with family. It used to drive my ex crazy when I was around my siblings.
Theresa [00:20:53]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:20:54]:
Because of the way we act.
Theresa [00:20:56]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:20:56]:
And we do act different.
Theresa [00:20:58]:
Yes.
Walker [00:21:00]:
And I think it was threatening.
Theresa [00:21:03]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:21:04]:
Control.
Theresa [00:21:04]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:21:05]:
It could have been a million things. I'm not sure because we didn't have conversations like this.
Theresa [00:21:10]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:21:10]:
But it wasn't an. It wasn't a pleasant experience afterwards.
Theresa [00:21:17]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:21:17]:
To. Because the conversation would just be, you know.
Theresa [00:21:21]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:21:23]:
Very judgmental.
Theresa [00:21:24]:
Sure, sure.
Walker [00:21:25]:
In other words, I don't like you when you're around your family.
Theresa [00:21:28]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:21:31]:
And I don't know that it's necessarily bad to. As long as we're aware of it. Right. To step into how we interact with family. I like playing with my sisters.
Theresa [00:21:49]:
Yeah. And I. Oh, babe.
Walker [00:21:52]:
It's complex.
Theresa [00:21:53]:
It is. Because I think it can look like so many things. I mean, you know what I was thinking was I don't mind the plane. I don't mind the plane. You know, I don't like it when people aren't kind to each other. I don't like it when people are trying to control other people's behavior. You know, one of the things that I would say that I witnessed, you know, once really clearly was your loss of power. And that was really hard to watch, you know, as your partner, because I was like, he just lost all of his power.
Theresa [00:22:33]:
He just became a four year old little boy. And that was hard to see and not from a. I don't know, I guess it made me sad, you know, it didn't make me angry. I just was. I just hadn't ever seen that from you, you know, and so, you know, you're.
Walker [00:23:01]:
This is with siblings.
Theresa [00:23:02]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:23:03]:
Yeah. Well, I don't know what the situation was because obviously it was subconscious or not harmful for me.
Theresa [00:23:10]:
Oh, right. It was for sure subconscious. And I don't really, you know, I couldn't go back and be like, oh, this was happening then. And that's what that was About.
Walker [00:23:17]:
Right.
Theresa [00:23:18]:
I just remember witnessing it and being like, whoa. And I think that probably is common often in family situations where your role in the family was one of no power. And I don't mean you, just you walker. I mean in family systems.
Walker [00:23:35]:
Right.
Theresa [00:23:35]:
You know that you're going to have siblings who didn't have power and to find safety, reverted to, I don't know, a more dependent role or a more pleasing role, you know, because that's what was safe for them. I think some people, you know, if you have more passive parents, you're going to have a sibling that. Or non engaged or neglectful parents. Like you'll have a sibling who is like in charge. Right?
Walker [00:24:14]:
I have one.
Theresa [00:24:15]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:24:16]:
Because both of my parents were extremely neglectful.
Theresa [00:24:19]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:24:20]:
And we're on our own.
Theresa [00:24:21]:
Yeah. And so I think, you know, again, we step back into those, you know, roles, you know, that we played. You know, I did a family session, you know, the other day, you know, with adult, you know, siblings, because I'm, you know, trying to learn more, you know, about, you know, trying to help this person, you know, find more freedom. And for me, understanding the roles that people play in families is really helpful. And not just, you know, the person that I'm working with, but, you know, the role of the sibling or the role of the parent because it can help me figure out places that they get stuck emotionally that I may not see when they're in my office because they're not playing that role with me the same way they play it with their family.
Walker [00:25:10]:
Right.
Theresa [00:25:11]:
Like there may be some transference, countertransference that happens. Right, right. But it's not the same as putting them in a role with their family where then it's like, oh, well, I've never even seen that part. And I. That happens sometimes, even with spouses. Like, you know, maybe, you know, I'll work with somebody for a year or two and then they bring their spouse with them and then I'm like, oh, I have not seen that part of you. Right. And so this is not.
Theresa [00:25:42]:
It's not just our family, but any.
Walker [00:25:45]:
Different situations I've seen that happen with you in the differences situation. Sure. Not family.
Theresa [00:25:52]:
Yeah. And so parts of you come out, you know, and I think the best we can do is be aware of it.
Walker [00:26:01]:
Yes.
Theresa [00:26:03]:
And just keep practicing. Right. Yeah.
Walker [00:26:05]:
I mean, here's the question that I've got for you is, you know, it's. It isn't necessarily bad is what my premise is.
Walker [00:26:13]:
Right.
Walker [00:26:15]:
Unless it's harmful and we know it, but we still stay in the role or it's harmful and we don't know it.
Theresa [00:26:24]:
Right.
Walker [00:26:25]:
And so how do you strike that balance? How do you know? Because I just don't feel like being able to get back in. It's just, you know, you hear stories. Well, I haven't seen that person in years, and it was just like two peas in a pod, et cetera. And the only way that can be is that you're both reverting in some way to what you were like when that was going on. Does that make that a bad interaction? Not necessarily.
Theresa [00:26:51]:
No. I don't think it has to. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Walker [00:26:55]:
And the other thought I had was about siblings, which is be curious about who your siblings are as adults.
Theresa [00:27:00]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:27:01]:
Have that curious conversation. So you learn.
Theresa [00:27:05]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:27:06]:
How we're different. And that part is a challenge. But it's still interesting. I know I interact with at least one sibling.
Theresa [00:27:13]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:27:14]:
Way differently.
Theresa [00:27:15]:
Right.
Walker [00:27:15]:
Than I used to. I'm able to have direct conversation. You hurt me.
Theresa [00:27:20]:
Right.
Walker [00:27:20]:
When you did X, Y or Z. Yeah. I love you, but that hurt me.
Theresa [00:27:25]:
Yeah, yeah.
Walker [00:27:26]:
With a adult response.
Theresa [00:27:29]:
Yeah. Right, right. You're able to stay in your prefrontal cortex. Right. Yeah, yeah. Even if you're having an emotional response, it's not taking over. So. No, babe, I don't.
Theresa [00:27:44]:
I don't think it has to be bad. I don't. Again, I think, you know, it can be playful, it can be fun. I think what often happens is that one person isn't okay with the relationship the way it used to be, and they want it to shift, and maybe somebody doesn't want it to shift.
Walker [00:28:12]:
Sure.
Theresa [00:28:13]:
Right.
Walker [00:28:14]:
Sure.
Theresa [00:28:15]:
And so then you have a choice. Do you allow yourself to step back into that space in order to maintain relationship with that person? Do you risk the relationship having some level of abandonment if the person doesn't like how you've grown? Right. You know, one of the things that we talked about in school and. Ooh, it's going to be really pushing my vocabulary. But, you know, like, we. But we like homeostasis. Right. Like, we don't.
Theresa [00:28:58]:
We don't. We don't like it when one person changes the dynamic because then we can't predict what's going to happen and then we don't feel safe. Does that make sense? And so I think, like, being around our family, I think we can go in with an intention. Like, I'm going to hold my boundaries this time, and I'm going to be this way at Christmas. And then we get in there and then we Don't. Right. And so then we're. We're giving mixed messages.
Theresa [00:29:36]:
Right. Because we're not really clear. We are. We're not really clear yet. We just know that we don't like it, but we don't know how to do it. Well, we haven't. So. And if.
Theresa [00:29:52]:
So if we're only practicing it on holidays, we're probably not going to get good at it. Does that make sense? And so I think, you know, how do we practice it? Well, we have to practice it in other relationships, too. But maybe our partner relationship doesn't trigger us as much as our family system does.
Walker [00:30:19]:
Depends on the circumstance.
Theresa [00:30:21]:
Oh, sure. Yeah, sure. Anyway, I just think it's really complex. But no, I don't think it has to be negative. I just think that it's. If we grew up in a household where you said whatever was on your mind, that probably still happens when you're an adult. And if you grow up in a household where you avoided topics, that probably still happens as an adult. And so if we want it to be different, how do we do it? And how do we hold on to ourself? And I think anytime we change, it's messy.
Theresa [00:31:05]:
You know, we talk about the pendulum swinging. You know, it's, it's. It's hard for us to change, like, incrementally. You know, it's like in order for me to be around my family, and I'm using this in general terms, I can't be that because it's too easy for me to slide back. So I can't, I can't be. I can't walk in. If we're going to use, like, let's say, percentages, I can't be 5 percentage points different around my family. In order to maintain myself, we often need to be farther away from that.
Theresa [00:31:48]:
So maybe 50% different or 75% different in order to hold on to ourself around them. And so when we change, we tend to swing the pendulum all the way over here. And then maybe that doesn't work. And we're really trying to find this place in the middle. But I don't know how to get from here to here. I have to swing all the way over here in order to come back. But I think we get so much pushback when we swing all the way that it just takes so much energy that we go. We just, like, forget it.
Theresa [00:32:25]:
I'll just keep playing that role.
Walker [00:32:28]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:32:29]:
Yeah. Too much pushback.
Walker [00:32:31]:
I wonder. I'm thinking about My Inner Knowing. Checking in.
Theresa [00:32:35]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:32:36]:
And when I leave Even if I do step back into that role, I don't leave feeling bad most of the time. Last Thanksgiving, I've told, I've talked about this before on our show where we were playing a game and it got hyper competitive crazy. And then there was some passive aggressiveness that came out from my brother in law and then there was overt aggressiveness by me. I mean, not I'm going to beat you up, but you know, just words.
Theresa [00:33:01]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:33:02]:
I went into lawyer mode and it was ugly, you know, but in any event, most of the time I'm not. I don't have anxiety going in.
Theresa [00:33:13]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:33:13]:
I don't think. Anyway.
Theresa [00:33:14]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:33:15]:
And I don't have bad feelings coming out this. The thing with Libby was just interesting. Just I was like, I think we've been doing that.
Theresa [00:33:31]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:33:32]:
And so I'm trying, what I'm trying to do is not lump all of us together into how God awful, you know, it can be that I've lost all boundaries and it was just a train wreck to go see my family, et cetera. And I'm sure there are clients.
Theresa [00:33:48]:
Absolutely.
Walker [00:33:48]:
That, that is what that's like. Because there can be victimizers, right?
Theresa [00:33:56]:
Sure, sure. Yeah.
Walker [00:33:58]:
But it's not always that way.
Theresa [00:34:01]:
No, no.
Walker [00:34:01]:
And so I'm wondering, you know, if you, if you leave the family interaction and you use some introspection, how did that go? What am I feeling? If you feel steady and clear or whatever it is your guidance system is. You're knowing.
Theresa [00:34:23]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:34:23]:
Then to me. Was it bad? I don't think so.
Theresa [00:34:29]:
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. You know, I think it's such an individual process. I think your, your, your comment is helpful because I think, you know, can we do that in the middle of it too? I mean, not, you know, try. Yeah. I mean, not everybody just sees their family for the day. Right.
Theresa [00:34:48]:
I mean, there's plenty of people that travel and you're with your family for two days, five days, maybe seven days. Right? Yes. And so I think, you know, even if it's just a day, if you notice yourself anxious or, you know, depressed or angry, you know, can you go into another room and get grounded and breathe and, you know, I don't know, pause for a moment.
Walker [00:35:22]:
Absolutely.
Theresa [00:35:23]:
You know, listen to some bilateral music. Imagine roots crying out the bottoms of your feet trying to just get. Find yourself again?
Walker [00:35:33]:
Sure. 15 minute nap.
Theresa [00:35:35]:
A 15 minute nap? Yeah.
Walker [00:35:37]:
Meditate.
Theresa [00:35:38]:
Yeah, yeah.
Walker [00:35:39]:
Sit quietly in a chair and.
Theresa [00:35:41]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:35:41]:
Enjoy a cup of tea or glass of tea or whatever.
Theresa [00:35:45]:
Yeah, yeah.
Walker [00:35:45]:
To get yourself present Right, right.
Theresa [00:35:49]:
And we talked about this a little bit on one of the other episodes, which is, you know, go into your observer. I think if you can enter, you know, family gatherings like that and just watch, I think you'll learn a lot about your system and you know, more likely to understand the role, you know, that you play in the system. But again, understand that that's been cultivated our entire life. You know, I have a client right now who is living had, you know, moved back home to live with their parent and just been struggling so much. And in our conversation recently, recognizing that, it's like I'm just a teenager again, you know, like I'm in the same house and I'm in my siblings room and it's decorated the same and the living room's the same and the kitchen's the same and everything's the same. And when I lived here the last time, it was not good. It's not good. And so even though it's not that, you know, anymore, you know, they haven't reverted to that period of time literally, emotionally, it's taking them back, you know, being around their parent, being in the same surroundings, you know, again, their body is responding.
Walker [00:37:21]:
Back to your hometown.
Theresa [00:37:22]:
Back to your hometown. Sure.
Walker [00:37:24]:
People went to school, school with all those things contribute to this.
Theresa [00:37:28]:
Oh yeah. I mean, it can no different if people go to a high school reunion. Right, right. I mean, that's why I've never gone.
Walker [00:37:37]:
I don't know.
Theresa [00:37:38]:
Yeah, we revert right back to our roles. Yeah, yeah. No, I went, I think maybe twice. And that was difficult because I'm like, whew. I am so far away from that that it was just hard, you know, to. I don't want to go back to that role, you know, that I was playing when I was a teenager. I was glad to be done with high school. So again, respecting the physiology piece of it, you know, that what's familiar, you know, what we talked about, you know, with her is because everything's decorated the same, you know, could she even just get different bedding, you know, spend 50 bucks on a seven piece comforter and sheet set that's not her old sister's bedroom? Does that make sense? You know, can you just take down what's on the walls and put it under the bed and then if your parents want to put it back when you're not there anymore, you know, like it's still there, but you've created a space that is where you are in your life right now.
Theresa [00:38:44]:
Not, you know, where you were 35 years ago. And so, and it does matter. I just don't think we pay attention to it. And so, so some of this isn't. I just want it to not be this like shame reaction, you know, like I'm just not doing it right when I'm around my family.
Walker [00:39:04]:
Right.
Theresa [00:39:05]:
I want there to be an understanding that this is a real physiological thing that happens. Our body, even if we're not going to our parents house or you know, something like that, it can again, still being around the people that we are, we're most familiar with at a particular time in our life, our body goes there. I mean, you know, what it makes me think of is, you know, like people who have Alzheimer's and they play music that they liked in their teens and twenties and their body goes right back there. Right, right. And they're able to communicate and dance and sing and you know, I mean, it just. Their body has a response to this too. It's not just your mind.
Walker [00:39:49]:
Right.
Theresa [00:39:50]:
And so I just want that to be clear. And so observer is the, you know, walking in and being like, oh, okay, yeah. Like I know that about my dad and my brother and how they interact. I'm just seeing it differently. Instead of being reactive to it, I'm just like, oh, right. This is what my mother and my brother, you know, that's what their relationship is. Or this is what my two siblings relationship is. Whatever.
Theresa [00:40:27]:
If we can go in it with that intention that we are experimenting and practicing, that we're here to learn as opposed to get sucked into the energy of what is familiar, I think we can have a different experience. But a lot of people have anxiety around family gatherings and they feel like they have to go. They'll get a lot of guilt or shame thrown at them if they don't. Or they just avoid completely. Yeah. But it is a particularly stressful time for people, even if you don't notice stress around your siblings. I'm just saying that for other people it's very stressful.
Walker [00:41:23]:
Sure. And I guess ultimately it comes back to how do you. And we've talked about a few things you can do, but how do you maintain the best relationship that you can have, whatever it may be? It may not be the greatest relationship ever, but it's still relationship with family when you're not together but once a year or a few times a year and still hold on to yourself.
Theresa [00:41:56]:
Yeah. You know, for me, it would be willing to have a converse. It would be willing to have a conversation with your parents or your siblings. It's having words that are not threatening. But again, if it's a relationship that you're wanting, that you're reinforcing, that I want connection with you. I just can't do this, that old role anymore. It takes me to a place that's not good for me. It's not healthy for me.
Theresa [00:42:36]:
I don't like that part of myself. But I think being what?
Walker [00:42:42]:
Let me stop for a second. So what if the response is, what the hell are you talking about?
Theresa [00:42:49]:
Yeah, yeah. I'm just aware that when I'm around you, I don't like how I act. Whether you see it or not, I'm snarkier. Whether you see it or not, I'm more passive aggressive. And I leave here and I don't feel good about myself.
Walker [00:43:09]:
Right.
Theresa [00:43:09]:
I don't want that anymore. I want relationship with you. I just don't want to have it be that way because I don't feel good when I leave here. And it doesn't mean that you won't have family members that are dismissive of that. But it's really about you holding on to yourself. Right. You being direct about what you need. It doesn't mean you're going to get what you need or what.
Theresa [00:43:35]:
Right.
Walker [00:43:36]:
Well, it's scary. People want to hold on to that because it's scary. And it's not. It can be abusive. Right. That just can be an aspect of all this. But it can also just be fear of losing that, you know, whatever there is left of that relationship. You know what I'm saying?
Theresa [00:43:56]:
Sure.
Walker [00:43:57]:
I think people. It can react. Well, I don't want to change that because then what do we have. If you're not going to have contact throughout the year and have conversation.
Theresa [00:44:09]:
Right, right. Yeah.
Walker [00:44:11]:
To see each other as you are now. So that's just an added layer of, you know, what do you do going forward? And so it just strikes me that it's a process with family of moving in that direction versus you just show up once a year and have to go through all this. But some. That's maybe really simplistic. You have to deal with it all the time.
Theresa [00:44:35]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. What I was talking about earlier, you know, practicing and holding on to yourself with every interaction, you know, whether it's in person or on the phone. If we keep giving mixed messages, people are just gonna hope that we don't follow through.
Walker [00:44:59]:
Quit acting so weird.
Theresa [00:45:01]:
Yeah, yeah.
Walker [00:45:02]:
But if we really do, you're really just not yourself.
Theresa [00:45:05]:
Right. Actually, I am more myself than I have been.
Walker [00:45:11]:
To me, I was 2540 years ago or whatever.
Theresa [00:45:14]:
Yeah, yeah. But I think it requires us to do our work, you know, in regards to, you know, who am I separate from my family? And you know, for some people, that isn't safe and they're not going to find out who they are separate from their family. And that's okay. They get that choice. I just wanted to find out who I was separate from my family. I didn't want to play a role, you know, that I had learned. It wasn't great, my role. I mean, maybe I got some attention, you know, maybe I got laughs.
Theresa [00:45:51]:
I mean, I was a good storyteller, but it was all pretend. It was all about safety. It wasn't about me knowing who I was. It wasn't about me being able to hold on to myself or making decisions for myself. I mean, at some level it was all fear based. And so. And what I feel fortunate about in my family is that I feel like with the exception of one sibling who just doesn't know me anymore.
Theresa [00:46:31]:
I think.
Theresa [00:46:32]:
All of my siblings and my parents have adapted to who I am. I'm not saying they like it all the time, but I don't really get pushback. So in that regard it's been successful. They haven't abandoned me. I have relationship and I think it's healthier than it ever was.
Walker [00:47:04]:
I'm just thinking of people looking back with nostalgia, you know, you remember what Theresa, she was such a good storyteller, you know, I just wonder what happened to the joy in her life, you.
Walker [00:47:14]:
Know.
Walker [00:47:17]:
Maybe that sort of stuff. And my point being, we have to stand within our own truth, right?
Theresa [00:47:24]:
Absolutely.
Walker [00:47:25]:
That I like who I am. If we're working on ourselves. I like who I am.
Theresa [00:47:29]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:47:30]:
And I'm okay if you're nostalgic about who I used to be, but it's not who I am today. And I can love you regardless.
Theresa [00:47:38]:
Right, Right. Yeah. If we could allow people to be different, you know what I would say for the people listening as you step into the holidays, can you allow people to be different?
Walker [00:47:55]:
Let's turn that mirror around.
Theresa [00:47:57]:
Right?
Walker [00:47:57]:
Yeah. It's true.
Theresa [00:47:58]:
Can you allow it to. Right, Right. Someone to be in a different role or are you wanting them to be predictable? Because we can want that for ourselves to be in a new role, but not want the people around us to be in a new role. Right. And so we're so complex. We are so flex. So can we allow that as well for the people in our family and our friends and our partner. And our partner.
Theresa [00:48:26]:
Right. Because that's tricky too, you know. You know, we've heard a lot of stuff over the years. People don't really change. And that's absolutely not true.
Walker [00:48:35]:
Right.
Theresa [00:48:36]:
If they're making effort to change, we actually can get healthier. Or. I don't even know why I'd have a job. But. But can we allow our children to grow? Can we allow them to be someone different than they were when they left the house, 18, young adult, whatever? Or do we want them to stay in a role when, you know, when it was most safe? So. Yeah. So. Yes.
Theresa [00:49:14]:
Look in the mirror. Can we allow it to.
Walker [00:49:17]:
Yeah. And also the pause between stimulus and response, as we've talked about many times.
Theresa [00:49:24]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:49:25]:
We learn that every time we meditate.
Theresa [00:49:27]:
Yes.
Walker [00:49:28]:
To incline our minds to more of that. And I think at this time of year, that's really important, especially when all this is going on. You're feeling the anxiety, etc. To check in so that you're not reactive. Because when you're reactive, you're much more likely to just drop right back into that old spot. Right?
Theresa [00:49:47]:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's interesting having a conversation today with someone who was talking about how they, you know, they make a. A commitment essentially to do Christmas different every year, and then they do the same thing every year, and they're like, why do we keep doing that? Right. And I was just saying, you know, for me, too, I mean, you know, I wanted, you know, Christmas to be different, and I just keep every year doing a little bit different. A little bit different, a little bit different, you know, recognizing that, you know, it may be different for my kids, but, you know, they aren't, you know, 1, 6, 10, and 14 anymore. And, you know, am I buying things for them that mean anything out of some expectation or old story or sense of, you know, needing them to have the perfect experience or, you know, can I. Can I risk an epic fail by doing something different? And so to me, same.
Theresa [00:51:08]:
Am I willing to risk doing something different? Yeah. That might be respectful of where they are now. And it can still be fun. You know, like last year I bought, for the first time, everybody got matching pajamas. I'd never done that before. And then it was funny because we're not Jewish, but I bought Hanukkah pajamas, but I didn't know that. I just liked them because they were blue. And everybody thought it was funny, but it was nice, you know, I just keep trying new things.
Theresa [00:51:45]:
This year I bought a big group gift for my kids, something that they could do together. So. And maybe they'll be like, what the heck?
Walker [00:51:56]:
Or maybe their next will be they're all doing it together.
Theresa [00:52:00]:
Right. And maybe so. I don't know.
Walker [00:52:02]:
It's that parental like wish, you know.
Theresa [00:52:07]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:52:07]:
And it may be or may not. We'll see.
Theresa [00:52:09]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:52:10]:
Be interesting. I'll bet it is, though.
Theresa [00:52:11]:
Yeah. It'll be interesting.
Walker [00:52:13]:
At least with a couple. Maybe all.
Theresa [00:52:16]:
So always experimenting.
Walker [00:52:19]:
I like it.
Theresa [00:52:20]:
Yeah. Just willing to risk. I mean, I think it's what you were saying earlier is, am I willing to risk loss? I think it's hard. I don't know. Often that we are.
Walker [00:52:40]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:52:42]:
What are you thinking?
Walker [00:52:43]:
Oh, that. I just need to give the whole exchange with Libby some thought. I want to be as supportive as I can for her to be stronger in getting through the stormy seas.
Theresa [00:53:00]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:53:03]:
And I think I do a pretty good job of that. But a few times we were not in that space. Yeah. And it wasn't a bad interaction. I didn't think we. It was anything. No, there was nothing. Nobody was angry, nobody was upset or anything else.
Walker [00:53:25]:
It just was our speech.
Theresa [00:53:29]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:53:33]:
But we both thought we were really cute.
Theresa [00:53:35]:
Sure.
Walker [00:53:39]:
But when you're talking about, can I accept change? And I don't think that's me trying to. And sorry, this is personal processing. But it is fascinating to hold on to that. Maybe there's a piece. So that's what I want to give some more thought to because I like it when she talks business. Because I just sit there with wonder.
Theresa [00:54:01]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:54:02]:
Like, where did that person come from? You rock. You know, that is so cool.
Theresa [00:54:07]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:54:08]:
And then I also like her kind, you know, funny younger self too.
Theresa [00:54:12]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:54:14]:
So anyway.
Theresa [00:54:15]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:54:16]:
Fascinating.
Theresa [00:54:17]:
Yeah. Again, I don't think it has to be bad. I just think being aware of it and. And again, is it. Is it playful or is it really about safety and fear and again.
Walker [00:54:31]:
Oh, gosh.
Theresa [00:54:32]:
Yeah. I mean, I just think all we can do is pay attention and see.
Walker [00:54:38]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, hopefully it's not about that, but I don't know. Now you got me wondering. Oh, no, I. There was a lot of stress. She started the new job. It's scary.
Walker [00:54:53]:
There's a lot of pressure with some really harsh. What do they call it, measures that they have to meet.
Theresa [00:55:05]:
Sure, sure.
Walker [00:55:05]:
You know, metrics. Harsh metrics. In this new job she has. And I was thinking maybe that was, you know, it was safe to not have to deal with all that and to get younger, you know, and then maybe I was responding, but maybe I started it. I don't know.
Theresa [00:55:23]:
Yeah. Who knows? You know, it's interesting as you talk about it, it makes me think about, you know, when I was. After I lost the baby and almost died, and I was in the icu, you know, my mom coming, and I absolutely was a little girl. You know, I was afraid, confused, and the best thing she could do for me was to nurture me like I was.
Walker [00:56:10]:
Right.
Theresa [00:56:11]:
Right. Her moving into an adult space and trying to cognitively talk me out of my fear would not have been helpful.
Walker [00:56:20]:
Right.
Theresa [00:56:21]:
For me, her allowing me to be in that space when I was afraid, not living there, because that wouldn't have been helpful either. But in that, you know, level of distress, you know, that my mom could allow me to be a little girl for a while. Yeah. Was helpful.
Walker [00:56:46]:
Well, it's, I think, an important point, too, because I think I myself, in this conversation, have been putting some judgment on it. Right.
Theresa [00:56:57]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:56:58]:
Sometimes it just is. We just are, and it's what we need in that moment.
Theresa [00:57:03]:
Right, Right.
Walker [00:57:04]:
You just need it to be held.
Theresa [00:57:06]:
Right, Right.
Walker [00:57:07]:
You know?
Theresa [00:57:08]:
Yeah. You know, it's interesting, babe, because you brought it up and. And I didn't know, you know, until we sat down, but when I look back, you know, in those, know, three, four days that we spent with her, I didn't even notice.
Walker [00:57:28]:
Oh, I thought you said. Yeah, I. I noticed that I just hadn't said something.
Theresa [00:57:32]:
No, no, no, no. I have noticed that happen in the past. In the past, sure. Right. No, I didn't notice. It didn't stick out to me, so I didn't. I. So even if it was happening, there wasn't a.
Theresa [00:57:48]:
Ooh, what's that about happening for me? So.
Walker [00:57:52]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:57:52]:
Yeah. And so maybe it was because, you know, I knew she was in distress. You know, I mean, I know it's not how she and I converse, you know, when she and I were talking about, you know, the stressful things.
Walker [00:58:08]:
Sure.
Theresa [00:58:08]:
You know, but I haven't been around that long.
Walker [00:58:12]:
I would agree it wasn't extreme. It was just enough that I noticed.
Theresa [00:58:15]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:58:16]:
I could probably think of two instances.
Theresa [00:58:18]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:58:19]:
But just interesting.
Theresa [00:58:21]:
It is interesting just to pay attention.
Walker [00:58:23]:
And not necessarily bad.
Theresa [00:58:25]:
Right.
Walker [00:58:25]:
Just what we both needed at that moment.
Theresa [00:58:29]:
Again, all of that.
Walker [00:58:30]:
Also, that's part of just observing our lives. Right.
Theresa [00:58:35]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:58:35]:
Why did I do that? And was. Do I want that?
Theresa [00:58:40]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:58:42]:
Be intentional.
Theresa [00:58:43]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:58:44]:
Or try to be.
Theresa [00:58:45]:
Well, try to be. Right.
Walker [00:58:46]:
Because we all slide in and out of that. Right.
Theresa [00:58:49]:
Sure. And is it even something that's worth having a conversation about if it isn't something that feels like it's been harmful.
Walker [00:58:59]:
Right, agreed.
Theresa [00:59:00]:
I mean, I'm not saying this is easy stuff. None of this is easy.
Walker [00:59:03]:
No.
Theresa [00:59:04]:
Right. But you know what we don't want too right. Is if it really was something that wasn't detrimental to you, it's not impacting your relationship. I mean, you've opened the door. You've given her permission many times the last several years to let you know if she's struggling with something.
Walker [00:59:25]:
Right.
Theresa [00:59:25]:
And so, you know, to me it's kind of like, is it one of those situations in this case with you, with her, Is it kind of like the over apologizing where I'm so observant of my relationship with her? I'm trying to make sure I don't do anything that's harmful. And so then are you valuing it as harmful when maybe it wasn't? I mean, I don't know, babe. I mean, I'm just. I'm just saying that I think it's kind of like again, the pendulum swinging right. When we're trying to create change, it's hard to know where the balance is. So, I mean, I'm not saying. I know. I'm just.
Theresa [01:00:07]:
It's just what's coming to mind. And maybe it was fine and maybe it was the nurturing she needed and maybe she needed that playful piece. I don't know. I just know she is trying to find her way and it's hard and scary and uncertain.
Walker [01:00:27]:
Yeah, me too.
Theresa [01:00:29]:
Yeah. Yeah, me too.
Walker [01:00:32]:
Even with all my wisdom.
Theresa [01:00:34]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for the conversation, babe. Thank you.
Walker [01:00:40]:
I love you.
Theresa [01:00:40]:
Yeah, I love you too. Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth and we strengthen, strive to be more compassionate every day.