Shame and the Lost Moments for Kindness
Theresa Hubbard and Walker Bird
In this heartfelt episode of My Inner Knowing, Theresa and Walker explore the tender emotions of shame and regret, sharing personal stories that reveal how these feelings shape our choices and connections. Theresa reflects on pivotal moments from her past, including witnessing injustice and facing fear, while Walker offers insights on courage, vulnerability, and the balance between bravery and self-preservation.
Together, they unpack how societal pressures and personal boundaries influence our actions and how shame can become a pathway to growth and deeper connection. Join Theresa and Walker for an honest conversation that inspires self-compassion and the courage to live authentically.
Connect with My Inner Knowing!
Watch the episode on YouTube
My Inner Knowing website
My Inner Knowing Facebook
My Inner Knowing Instagram
Episode Transcript
Walker [00:00:04]:
My inner knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life. Each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path. Well, hello.
Theresa [00:00:35]:
Hello. How are you?
Walker [00:00:38]:
I am fantastic.
Theresa [00:00:39]:
Are you? Tell me more.
Walker [00:00:42]:
Just have been sharing a lot of love with people this week.
Theresa [00:00:50]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:00:51]:
And it feels good.
Theresa [00:00:53]:
Yay. Yeah.
Walker [00:00:56]:
Giving and. And also practicing non attachment.
Theresa [00:01:01]:
Hmm. So today there's several things that we were going to talk about. We want to start out with talking about shame as a missed opportunity for kindness. That's something that you've said. Do you remember where that comes from?
Walker [00:01:26]:
There are multiple examples.
Theresa [00:01:29]:
Okay.
Walker [00:01:29]:
Over my life where I was given the opportunity to step forward to help somebody in one way or another that I let slip through my fingers.
Theresa [00:01:46]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:01:47]:
And there's some piece of shame associated with the memories when I think about it.
Theresa [00:01:54]:
Okay. Yeah.
Walker [00:01:56]:
A not enoughness. I wasn't a good enough person.
Theresa [00:02:02]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:02:03]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:02:05]:
You know, when you said that and I was thinking about talking about it today, one of the other things I was thinking about was not just a missed opportunity for kindness to others, but also to herself.
Walker [00:02:20]:
Sure.
Theresa [00:02:21]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Theresa [00:02:24]:
Because then when we. We do have regret or guilt or shame, then mostly I think we're reinforcing a negative story about whether we're a good person or not.
Walker [00:02:38]:
Sure. And it's interesting because I think, like me, many people that's not on the radar screen or a second.
Theresa [00:02:48]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:02:48]:
Tell me more. What are you thinking?
Walker [00:02:51]:
Thinking about ways that we let other people down or we let ourselves down by not acting for other people versus times we let ourselves down because we were not acting on our own behalf as if we were our own best friend. The beloved of ourself.
Theresa [00:03:13]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:03:14]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:03:15]:
It's so interesting that you say that because sometimes being the beloved of ourself is not acting in what appears to be the benefit of someone I was thinking about rescuing.
Theresa [00:03:31]:
Right.
Walker [00:03:32]:
Tell us more.
Theresa [00:03:33]:
Well, just how you know, when you were speaking, I was what I met. What popped in my mind was how, you know, how do we not. How do we reconcile in our mind not helping someone who maybe we witness struggling or has asked us for help. Like, where's the balance there? And I was thinking that we can actually set a healthy boundary and make a choice that is in our highest good and in the highest good of the other. And we could still feel shame about it because of the way that we've been trained or conditioned.
Walker [00:04:32]:
Sure.
Theresa [00:04:35]:
So, like everything, it's complex.
Walker [00:04:38]:
It is. I was thinking while you were talking, you know, maybe I could give some examples.
Theresa [00:04:44]:
Sure.
Walker [00:04:44]:
And then we could talk about, well, what are the rescuing aspects of that versus just a missed opportunity? And. And it's not. I don't walk around. I don't think I walk around with a lot of shame about those instances, but they are missed opportunities, potentially. Or potentially. It's what you're talking about. So I don't know.
Theresa [00:05:09]:
Yeah. It's so funny.
Walker [00:05:10]:
Are you ready?
Theresa [00:05:12]:
Yeah. I don't want to forget this. So will you forget what you were going to say?
Walker [00:05:19]:
No.
Theresa [00:05:19]:
No. Okay. No. Okay. So I'm ready, you're ready. And I don't think I shared this with you, but I don't think we hug people very well. And I mean, I don't think there is a connection. You know, I think a lot of times we're hugging because we're supposed to be hugging.
Theresa [00:05:42]:
Maybe it's a family member. It seems appropriate or whatever. And for whatever reason, when Xander and I were in Chicago over the weekend, we were leaving the Airbnb we were staying at, and we were driving by this hotel and there was an like an obvious like older father, like I would say 80s or 90s, and his probably closer to our age son hugging in front of the hotel. But it was a tap, tap. Not even like, like, no. None of their body touching other than like they both just leaned in and like, tap, tap. And there was a part of me that wanted to yell out the window, like, I. And I had some like, missed opportunity experience.
Theresa [00:06:35]:
That's words coming up. But part of me wanted to roll down the window and say, you guys need to try that hug again. Because mean it, whatever it is. Right. Because we can be struggling with someone and still send them love.
Walker [00:06:54]:
Right.
Theresa [00:06:56]:
But anyway, I was like, dang it, missed opportunity. I wish I had rolled down the window and not, you know, not done it in a shaming way, but in an empowering way. Like, it's okay. We need so much permission.
Walker [00:07:14]:
Get on in there, boys.
Theresa [00:07:15]:
That's right. I don't even know exactly what I wouldn't said, but yeah, yeah, do over.
Walker [00:07:25]:
I'll push people's hands out of the way, you know, when they. It's like, I'll come on in here, you know, And I mean, you kind of sense.
Theresa [00:07:33]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:07:34]:
And.
Theresa [00:07:35]:
Well, maybe.
Walker [00:07:36]:
Or maybe not.
Theresa [00:07:37]:
Or maybe not.
Walker [00:07:38]:
It is what it is. I was talking to Libby, my Daughter about that. Because she hugged everybody when she was little.
Theresa [00:07:46]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:07:46]:
She just loved everybody, and it would break her heart. And Mother's Day out even. You know, she's two. She would be so heartbroken that people didn't like her hugs. We just had that conversation after you and I went there for Thanksgiving.
Theresa [00:08:05]:
Oh, yeah. Connection being seen. Validated.
Theresa [00:08:13]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:08:15]:
Anyway, so shame. Missed opportunities. Let's go back there.
Walker [00:08:19]:
Yeah. Do you have shame about not saying something to the.
Theresa [00:08:22]:
No. Just a little regret. Just a little regret. Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:08:31]:
What held you back?
Theresa [00:08:36]:
I don't think I thought of it quick enough.
Walker [00:08:38]:
Chicago traffic.
Theresa [00:08:39]:
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And I think sometimes, like, I like to process things or I'm trying to figure out what I would say. So it was probably that, you know, some of it was probably traffic. Some of it was, you know, what would I say? Not having time to process. Yeah. I'll just stop here in the middle of the street while I think about what I want to say.
Theresa [00:09:06]:
Then I can roll my window down.
Walker [00:09:07]:
Okay.
Theresa [00:09:08]:
Yeah. Glad you didn't do that. Yeah. Yeah. No, but sometimes I. I mean, as fast as my brain processes, sometimes not as fast as I'd like it to. So. Missed opportunities for kindness.
Walker [00:09:26]:
Sure. There are many for me.
Theresa [00:09:29]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:09:31]:
What does that say about me? There's the shame piece coming right in. Fascinating. The first one that I can think of is in junior high, it was an old building that had. You could. They had rails on the outside from the parking lot. You could go down a ramp to get into the basement under the gym.
Theresa [00:09:58]:
Okay.
Walker [00:09:59]:
And so all the eighth graders, that was their spot, this railing. And they'd sit on the railing, and everybody would mill about, etc. And there was this developmentally challenged young man named Leroy. And Leroy was. The system had passed him through.
Walker [00:10:24]:
Right.
Walker [00:10:25]:
They just kept pushing him on because nobody wanted to deal with it. But he was the sweetest. Probably six year old.
Theresa [00:10:33]:
Wow.
Walker [00:10:33]:
Maybe. And at the bottom of the ramp, down the ramp and to the bottom, they called it the spit pit. And when children were being cruel to one another, they would grab somebody's jacket or their books or something, they'd throw it down in the spit pit. And then everybody sitting there, if you had to run down to get your stuff, it was the gauntlet.
Theresa [00:10:58]:
Wow.
Walker [00:11:00]:
And Leroy was really heavy, you know, and didn't have any money. And his shirts were. You know, his belly was always out of his shirt, and they were dirty and torn. You know, all those things. I mean, this is somebody that, you know, needed protecting.
Theresa [00:11:26]:
Yes.
Walker [00:11:29]:
So somebody threw Leroy's jacket down there. And I was a watcher. I did not spit on Leroy, but I was just a watcher, as everyone was jeering, et cetera. And he was laughing, you know, thinking it was funny. Enjoying the attention, really. But not.
Theresa [00:11:50]:
Right. Right.
Walker [00:11:51]:
And so I can still see his face and these gray hazel eyes looking up at the crowd, leaning over that railing and putting his hand up. Don't you spit on me.
Theresa [00:12:08]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:12:09]:
So there's still shame associated with that. And I don't think that's rescuing. No, that is somebody that I could have helped, because I could have. It was big.
Theresa [00:12:22]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:12:24]:
And people liked me. So if I could go back in time, I would have told everybody to cut it out and walk down with Leroy to get his stuff.
Theresa [00:12:37]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:12:39]:
So it's hard to be brave.
Walker [00:12:43]:
Yeah. Well, it's a repeat thing, now that you had me thinking about it.
Theresa [00:12:48]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:12:49]:
Tell me more.
Walker [00:12:50]:
Well, when I was in college, there was a John Cougar concert in Kansas City. So a friend and I drove over. Drove over. It's in the days where you had to go stand in line from early in the morning to try to get the best seat. And we drove over. I don't know. Got her. 10pm the night before.
Walker [00:13:19]:
Would wait all night, and we're in line, and there's this. His name's not coming to me. I could probably remember it, though, just because this was so impactful. But he was a little bit likely, Roy. Not nearly that challenged, but he was. We were standing outside of Kemper arena or wherever we were. But in any event, we're on the sidewalk in downtown Kansas City, and this is before all the urban renewal, so it was a little bit rough. Not terribly.
Walker [00:13:57]:
Not compared to big, bigger cities. But he's sitting there and he's. I think he was first in line. And there was a, you know, one of those very loud, aggressive young guys that, for whatever reason, I think he wanted his spot. So he was trying to intimidate everybody in the line. And the guy's name was Randy, not the bad actor. But in any event, all of a sudden, this guy went after Randy. And we were probably.
Walker [00:14:42]:
I don't know, my best friend and I were five people back standing there, and I just watched. So he starts wailing on Randy, and Randy's basically helpless. And these two guys that are a couple behind us, boom, immediately go running up there, grab the guy, shove him up against the wall and hold him.
Theresa [00:15:12]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:15:12]:
To save Randy. And through all that process, my friend and I both just stood there, hearts racing but not acting frozen. Yes.
Theresa [00:15:22]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:15:25]:
And so after they. They didn't pound him, but they roughed him up. There were a couple of med students at UMKC in the six year program and they were scared to death afterwards that they were going to get expelled.
Theresa [00:15:41]:
Wow.
Theresa [00:15:42]:
Wow.
Walker [00:15:42]:
So they came over. The guy just loudmouth, I'm going to get my friends. I'll be back. All that stuff just screeching all the way down the street that he was coming back for his revenge. And they came up to us because we were basically the next two biggest guys there, the watchers. So still, shame could have killed Randy for all I know.
Theresa [00:16:09]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:16:10]:
It was outrageous. And to. To know that I stood by and did nothing and they didn't even hesitate. That's who I want to be.
Theresa [00:16:23]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:16:27]:
Aren't you doing that work?
Walker [00:16:29]:
Oh, absolutely.
Theresa [00:16:31]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:16:32]:
But I want to be the person that it just. There's not any hesitation. You see wrong being done. And you. These days. This is a long time ago, 1980s. Not everybody was carrying a gun back then. Etc, so.
Walker [00:16:53]:
But it's not as if violent crime didn't happen. That was violent crime. Now whether that guy had been armed, etc, I don't know what was going through my mind. All I know is we froze.
Theresa [00:17:02]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:17:03]:
So those guys came up and they just said, hey, you know, we're really worried we're gonna get kicked out of school for that. If he comes back with friends, will you help? And we said, yes, we will.
Theresa [00:17:13]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:17:14]:
And then everybody's hyper vigilant etc. And he didn't show back up.
Theresa [00:17:17]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:17:18]:
Until the concert and security hauled that guy out. So it was a missed opportunity. Something that I would change if I could go back.
Theresa [00:17:32]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:17:33]:
I would still be scared though. And you hear the things in the news about people getting attacked on the trains or those sorts of things. I want to be the person that steps in regardless of the risk.
Theresa [00:17:48]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:17:49]:
Not letting you kill this person.
Theresa [00:17:51]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:17:54]:
Not if I can stop you. So rescuing.
Theresa [00:17:58]:
No. Well, yes, but not in the way that we talk about it typically in the mental health field.
Walker [00:18:08]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Walker [00:18:11]:
So those were opportunities the universe gave me to learn.
Theresa [00:18:18]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:18:19]:
So then the issue is you can. In those situations you can get hurt.
Theresa [00:18:26]:
Yeah, absolutely.
Walker [00:18:27]:
Killed.
Theresa [00:18:28]:
Absolutely.
Theresa [00:18:30]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:18:31]:
And I think my choice is that's what I will do if I see that again.
Theresa [00:18:43]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:18:44]:
So there's other times too.
Theresa [00:18:55]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:18:55]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:18:57]:
Do you want to keep going?
Walker [00:18:59]:
I do. Just to give another different scenario example. This one's much more innocuous and just. But it's really struck Home with me.
Theresa [00:19:07]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:19:08]:
And I've told you about it before. You know, I'm a young man just out of law school. I've got a modest house in a small town in. In a cute little neighborhood, but nothing fancy at all. And we didn't have a lot of money, but we had, you know, enough that if I'd wanted to do this. So a girl scout came to the.
Walker [00:19:31]:
Door.
Walker [00:19:34]:
And instead of just buying a box of cookies from her.
Theresa [00:19:37]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:19:38]:
I said I couldn't. And then I, you know, closer. She's like, okay. And I closed the door and I went back in. And two seconds later I was like, oh. So I turned around and came back out and she was gone.
Theresa [00:19:50]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:19:50]:
I walked up the street. She was nowhere to be found. She probably went through the side yard in tears. So I swore to myself at that point, if some kid ever comes up and asks me at my door, do you want to buy this? Yeah, I'm buying.
Theresa [00:20:08]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:20:09]:
Even if it's just one.
Theresa [00:20:11]:
Right.
Walker [00:20:11]:
And to tell them, hey, that takes a lot of courage to do that.
Theresa [00:20:15]:
Thank you.
Walker [00:20:18]:
Talk about a missed opportunity. Just. It would, in the big scheme of things, cost me nothing to have potentially made a big impact. You know that moment that you take to just hold somebody in that space. You have value and, and being able to dig deep. Because that takes courage.
Theresa [00:20:42]:
It does.
Walker [00:20:44]:
And just to be able to hold that space for them, to encourage it. Don't want to do that again. Rescuing little bit.
Theresa [00:21:03]:
I think it's hard, babe. I don't think anything's so simple. Maybe. Maybe what she needed was to not make the sale. I don't know.
Walker [00:21:24]:
I don't know either. And that's true.
Theresa [00:21:26]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:21:27]:
But I'm sitting here thinking, what if it had been a Kirby vacuum salesman?
Theresa [00:21:30]:
Right.
Walker [00:21:30]:
500, $700 in the 70s for a vacuum or Encyclopedia Britannica salesman.
Theresa [00:21:38]:
Oh yeah.
Walker [00:21:38]:
Somebody who. But I don't have that same soft spot in my heart for the adult who is scrapping to feed their family with door to door sales.
Theresa [00:21:47]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:21:49]:
Versus a child.
Theresa [00:21:51]:
A child.
Theresa [00:21:52]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:21:52]:
No, I hear you.
Walker [00:21:54]:
And the. Are they really any different? Maybe. But usually the adults want a lot more money.
Theresa [00:22:05]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:22:05]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:22:06]:
Not three dollars.
Walker [00:22:07]:
It was 250 at the. I think it may have been two bucks.
Theresa [00:22:10]:
Two bucks for a box of girls. Oh, you're shaming your. Yourself again.
Walker [00:22:15]:
I. Well, it's just like. Really? You can't go find eight quarters somewhere? Oh, no. Yeah. The. The shame pieces is some. A piece of that. That I think we should talk about and why do we do it and what should we do about it? How do you deal with it? What do you think? Kind of wisdom?
Theresa [00:22:39]:
Well, you know, it's interesting going back to the door to door person. I think, man, there's just so much that goes into it, you know.
Theresa [00:22:56]:
Can.
Theresa [00:22:56]:
We even pause and think about it? Regardless of what is presented to us? Right. Is really what I'm thinking about. Not just the door to door sales, whether it's an adult or a child, but can we pause or are we just reacting? Are we reacting to an old story? Are we tired? Are we sick? Are we. Are we broke? Right. Yeah, Broke, broke. I would guess there was very, very little that we purchased growing up from anybody that came door to door.
Theresa [00:23:28]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:23:29]:
So. But now in our life, can we pause to. To think about it? To think about the, you know, what's being asked of us, or is it reactive? Because it can be reactive, yes. Reactive, no. It doesn't have to just be your reactive. No. A reactive. Yes.
Theresa [00:23:53]:
Is often rescuing, you know, whether it's avoidance of ourself or wanting them to avoid, you know, uncomfortableness. I'm not talking about Leroy or Randy because to me, I would have harmed someone. So. Because I was a fighter when I.
Walker [00:24:11]:
Was younger, you'd have been those guys right up immediately.
Theresa [00:24:15]:
Yeah, Yeah.
Theresa [00:24:17]:
I broke some kid in the neighborhood's hand because he was picking on my brother. Yeah, Yeah. I think he was a year older than me. I still remember his name. Anyway, I won't say it out loud, but yeah, there was. I mean, it's interesting because as you were sharing that, I thought, man. But it wasn't like I thought about it either. It was a reactive decision.
Theresa [00:24:45]:
Right. That I was having. Whether that or I remember, like, it was hard for me to. Ooh, it's gonna make me bringing it. Often when the abuse was happening, my parents were frozen and they didn't get up off the couch. That's my phrase. Right.
Walker [00:25:19]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:25:20]:
Because they didn't know what to do. And so for me, I don't sit on the couch. What I've learned is how for it to not be reactive. I've learned for it to be more intentional. But I put myself in danger, you know, out of reacting and proving I was brave and strong. And I remember once, I was 16 driving, and my parents were in their car driving, and we were going to my grandparents, and we were like next to each other at a stoplight, and there was. So it was like a T intersection and we were going straight and there was A metro bus? No, it couldn't have been a t intersection because there was a car in the left hand turn lane, but there was a metro bus crossing in front of us and like going left and the car that was in the left hand turn lane had. It had died in the middle of the intersection and it was full of people.
Theresa [00:26:46]:
And the metro bus, when the light turned green, decided to try to go. And then there were cars behind it. And so the metro bus ends up getting stuck in the middle of the intersection. Can't go forward, can't go backward, and everybody's just sitting there. And I'm like, well, this is crazy. And not thinking about it, I mean, that this is crazy. Was probably instantaneous. I wasn't actually thinking about it.
Theresa [00:27:17]:
And I got out of my car and told the people that were in the car that had died in the intersection to put it in neutral. And I got in between the car and the metro bus and pushed the car out of the intersection and then got in my car and drove the rest of the way to my grandparents. And I remember my parents being like, who is that person? You know, like, I mean, like they knew it was me, but I mean, like, I think that was something that was always like a thing for them, like, who is she, you know, doing that? But I couldn't sit on the couch. And I don't want to say that I always responded. I'm sure there are times that I did not respond. But I've put a lot of effort as an adult to. To doing it intentionally. Even if I'm afraid.
Walker [00:28:24]:
There'S a. A balance there somewhere. When I've been in public places where somebody is raising their voice and they're, you know, putting. They're being cruel to somebody or threatening. Not in a actual hands on way like with Randy. And the question at that point is where. What's the point where you. Do we have any responsibility to intervene? And that's a personal decision.
Theresa [00:29:03]:
Absolutely, absolutely.
Walker [00:29:05]:
And where do you. Where is the point where you step in? It's a good way to get shot these days.
Theresa [00:29:15]:
Well, and I don't know how many people carry guns or don't carry guns. I just know that it's more than it used to be.
Walker [00:29:21]:
Right.
Theresa [00:29:23]:
I don't actually ever think of getting shot for sure. After I became a mother, you know what, I chose to be brave around changed. There was, I think, a pretty instantaneous response to I need to be here to raise my children. I think we've talked about this a little bit before, but it Would depend on the circumstances.
Walker [00:29:58]:
Right.
Theresa [00:29:59]:
It really would be a time where I would, you know, think clearly as best I could about what choice am I making? Do I trust myself? Do I trust others? I mean, what I can tell you is when I see people being brave. Whoo. I mean, I just cry. I mean, you know, like, if there's, like, a real, you know, or, you know, some clip that comes up on my phone, which will probably start now again tonight, since we're talking about it, and my phone's in the same room. But when I see those things, you know, like, you know, somebody caught in a rip current and people form a human chain to go out and save that person. I mean, that just. I mean, so many people being brave. Yeah.
Theresa [00:30:57]:
To save somebody. Right.
Walker [00:30:59]:
Yeah. And some people drown doing it, too.
Theresa [00:31:01]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:31:02]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:31:02]:
There was actually a homeless man that drowned in Yachats this year trying to save someone that that happened to.
Walker [00:31:10]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:31:10]:
It's really sad. I'm pretty sure that you met him.
Walker [00:31:15]:
Oh, really? You think that was him?
Theresa [00:31:17]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:31:19]:
Yes, I helped him out.
Theresa [00:31:20]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Theresa [00:31:25]:
Risking his life to save somebody. Mm.
Theresa [00:31:32]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:31:35]:
It's hard, babe. I don't think there's an answer. I just think, what. What's our integrity? Right. I mean, what's the best we can do in that moment?
Walker [00:31:46]:
Right.
Theresa [00:31:47]:
You know, because to me, it's like, can we reduce the amount of shame? Because I don't think shame reinforces good behavior or good choices or thoughtful choices, you know?
Walker [00:31:58]:
Sure, if you think it's interesting to me, because I. What life do you want to live? The one where you tried to save somebody's life, even if you failed and died, or where you turned your back. But then there's also a part of me that would assess my abilities to swim, the chances of us both drowning.
Theresa [00:32:26]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:32:27]:
That would go through my head, to be quite honest about it. I'm not sure I would dive into the Pacific Ocean.
Theresa [00:32:33]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:32:35]:
With a riptide.
Theresa [00:32:37]:
Right.
Walker [00:32:38]:
Or sneaker wave, whatever it is that got the person to go do that.
Theresa [00:32:43]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:32:44]:
And I feel shame in talking about saying that, but that's the honest truth.
Theresa [00:32:49]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:32:53]:
It's like the man that died a couple of years ago at the Devil's churn, Right. When he tried to jump across the chasm and fell in. And, you know, it's just crazy in there.
Theresa [00:33:03]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:33:04]:
And the paramedics would not go in.
Theresa [00:33:06]:
Right.
Walker [00:33:07]:
Because they were not right. Water rescue trained for that scenario, and they didn't have the equipment, so they made a calculated decision. This is my understanding from reading the news accounts, I wasn't there. We don't need five dead people.
Theresa [00:33:28]:
Right.
Walker [00:33:29]:
Versus one. But it's just horrific.
Theresa [00:33:31]:
It is.
Walker [00:33:32]:
And my guess is the trauma from that is lifelong.
Theresa [00:33:37]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:33:38]:
Making that decision and choosing not to.
Theresa [00:33:42]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:33:44]:
But it would be. If you've seen this place. It's a chasm that comes in from the ocean that the waves have cut into the basalt, and it just swells and crashes 30ft high. It's insane.
Theresa [00:34:01]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:34:03]:
So what do you.
Theresa [00:34:04]:
Do.
Walker [00:34:07]:
You think you'd dive in?
Theresa [00:34:09]:
No, no. But for me, I'm always planning, you know, the. What do I need to have on me to be able to help. Help someone. Right, right, right.
Theresa [00:34:28]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:34:29]:
How. How would I respond?
Theresa [00:34:31]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:34:32]:
What would I do?
Theresa [00:34:34]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:34:35]:
There's always a part of me that's looking.
Theresa [00:34:38]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:34:40]:
Those. To me, they're all opportunities. And it doesn't have to be right or wrong, but it does have consequences.
Theresa [00:34:48]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:34:48]:
Choices that we make or are oblivious.
Theresa [00:34:51]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:34:52]:
Response.
Theresa [00:34:53]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:34:53]:
Maybe we don't even notice because we're present enough. If you were to be the therapist for one of those first responders who is standing there. There were other people who had tied together belts and clothes and tried to throw down a lifeline. This guy would grab hold, and then he would lose it with the next wave until he hit his head.
Theresa [00:35:23]:
Right.
Walker [00:35:25]:
But if you were dealing with those people or who didn't dive in.
Theresa [00:35:33]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:35:33]:
Or the paramedics. Especially the paramedics. I think they made a professional decision. It's probably between two. But people were angry.
Theresa [00:35:43]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:35:44]:
I know.
Walker [00:35:46]:
How would you help with the shame of that?
Theresa [00:35:51]:
Well, having worked with first responders, veterans for years, you know, there's so much that goes into what they call a moral injury. Mm.
Walker [00:36:12]:
It's deep.
Theresa [00:36:13]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Theresa [00:36:16]:
And some people don't recover. You know, some of the suicide is that, you know, they don't find their way out. The shame is too much, I think, holding space for them. Well, not trying to talk them out of it. Allowing them to work through the process, supporting their body in the process. You know, I wish we could think our way out of trauma, but that doesn't tend to be how it works. Loving them. I mean, truly loving them.
Theresa [00:37:09]:
Because they don't feel lovable.
Theresa [00:37:15]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:37:17]:
Even the ones that tried, you know, the ones that couldn't, you know, ordered not to, whatever. But the ones that tried to and failed, there's still a significant amount of shame that can go along. I mean, that was, I would say, for me, my first awareness of, like, secondary trauma. As a therapist was, you know, working. I'm not going to repeat the story because it's too much. Nobody needs that in their mind. But he did try and he was unsuccessful and he was working through it so much. And it's so interesting because, my gosh, I probably haven't seen him in over 10 years, but he actually showed up on my, you know, like, friend request things, and I was like, whoa, I haven't seen that name in a really long time.
Theresa [00:38:31]:
And I just remember, you know, him trying to work through that, not feeling like he was strong enough, good enough. Just the sadness and the grief and, you know, will I be able to be successful next time? And so it's a lot. Yeah. And for me, it was his reality, was my biggest fear. And so that's, you know, part of what stuck to me about it. It was just so resonant with my own fear.
Theresa [00:39:24]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:39:29]:
So holding space, unconditional love, not trying to talk them out of it, supporting them, explaining the body and the mind. I think that peace, but not telling somebody they shouldn't feel that way. I don't think that's helpful.
Walker [00:39:47]:
Sure.
Theresa [00:39:48]:
Or, you know, why are you still thinking about it? It's been 10 years, whatever, you know, like.
Walker [00:39:54]:
Yes. Just get over it.
Theresa [00:39:56]:
Right, Right. There was nothing you could do to move on. Right. If we were that simple. So. Oh.
Walker [00:40:06]:
Not every choice to help somebody is a life or death situation for the. For us.
Theresa [00:40:15]:
No.
Walker [00:40:15]:
As. As a potential actor.
Theresa [00:40:17]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:40:18]:
Right. And I talk. I've done it several times in closing arguments and trial.
Theresa [00:40:24]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:40:25]:
You are. Have been put in a position where you can make a difference. You. And. And you have the power. Because maybe you wanted to help people before, but now you've got the power to do it if you choose to do it. It.
Theresa [00:40:40]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:40:40]:
And the question is, why are we here?
Theresa [00:40:44]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:40:45]:
Are we here to help our fellow man, fellow woman, fellow people?
Theresa [00:40:51]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:40:53]:
Are we here to choose to turn away? And it's powerful stuff, but even I don't always step up. I want to do it more and more.
Theresa [00:41:08]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:41:09]:
I mean, when I think about, you know, who you put effort into being, you know, and even watching you grow, you know, as an attorney over the last seven or eight years, I think you're more brave than you were when I met you.
Walker [00:41:32]:
I agree.
Theresa [00:41:35]:
Willing.
Walker [00:41:37]:
The safety part for me as a child was to freeze.
Theresa [00:41:41]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:41:41]:
Absolutely.
Walker [00:41:42]:
It's the only way to survive. Survive. That I could find.
Theresa [00:41:46]:
Right.
Walker [00:41:46]:
Fighting back was not going to.
Theresa [00:41:48]:
Right.
Walker [00:41:49]:
Stop it.
Theresa [00:41:50]:
Right.
Walker [00:41:52]:
So my work is to overcome that.
Theresa [00:41:55]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:41:57]:
Every day you work on overcoming your freeze.
Walker [00:42:00]:
I do.
Theresa [00:42:03]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:42:04]:
Our body's just trying to protect us.
Walker [00:42:06]:
Yeah. Well. And that just so people know, that's going to be the subject of our next retreat.
Theresa [00:42:14]:
Yes. Becoming unshakable. Yeah. From self doubt to daring.
Walker [00:42:21]:
From self doubt to daring. And I chose the daring.
Theresa [00:42:25]:
Yes, you did.
Walker [00:42:26]:
There are so many opportunities that I've been given to be daring.
Theresa [00:42:31]:
Yes.
Walker [00:42:32]:
In my career that I've taken now. And I think we've got a lot to share with people and maybe help others overcome that freeze response like mine. Or there's many other responses.
Theresa [00:42:46]:
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To come into presence and groundedness and be able to be intentional and thoughtful in our decisions. Yes. To be brave, you know, doing things even when we're afraid.
Walker [00:43:00]:
And to recognize the power of vulnerability.
Theresa [00:43:03]:
Yes.
Walker [00:43:04]:
And this is my. I repeat it. But it's true.
Theresa [00:43:08]:
Yes. Yeah.
Walker [00:43:10]:
In the courtroom and in life.
Theresa [00:43:12]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:43:13]:
What have we got to lose? Ultimately? We're all have a one way ticket.
Theresa [00:43:19]:
Yes.
Walker [00:43:20]:
It may be repeated depending on your beliefs.
Theresa [00:43:23]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:43:24]:
But it's a one way ticket this time.
Theresa [00:43:26]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:43:28]:
So what do we choose?
Theresa [00:43:30]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:43:31]:
What do we choose?
Walker [00:43:32]:
And do we freeze ourselves and beat ourselves up because we didn't choose that time or that time. Or that time. Or that time. Well, today's the day.
Theresa [00:43:40]:
Today's the day.
Walker [00:43:41]:
And if it's not today.
Theresa [00:43:42]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:43:43]:
There'll be another opportunity.
Walker [00:43:45]:
Then I'll try again tomorrow.
Theresa [00:43:47]:
Yeah, yeah.
Walker [00:43:48]:
So I'm excited about it. I have a lot to share along those lines. I've had to do a lot.
Theresa [00:43:53]:
Yes.
Walker [00:43:53]:
In my training.
Theresa [00:43:54]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Walker [00:43:57]:
What?
Theresa [00:43:58]:
I was just thinking maybe you'll let me do that exercise I keep wanting to do and you're like, oh, another liability release. It's not that dangerous. But you're an attorney.
Walker [00:44:17]:
Yes, I am.
Theresa [00:44:22]:
Oh, you, you. I love you.
Walker [00:44:30]:
I love you too.
Theresa [00:44:31]:
Thanks for the conversation today.
Walker [00:44:33]:
Yeah. I'm grateful for the opportunity to do this.
Theresa [00:44:39]:
Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth and we strive to be more compassionate and every day.
My inner knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life. Each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path. Well, hello.
Theresa [00:00:35]:
Hello. How are you?
Walker [00:00:38]:
I am fantastic.
Theresa [00:00:39]:
Are you? Tell me more.
Walker [00:00:42]:
Just have been sharing a lot of love with people this week.
Theresa [00:00:50]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:00:51]:
And it feels good.
Theresa [00:00:53]:
Yay. Yeah.
Walker [00:00:56]:
Giving and. And also practicing non attachment.
Theresa [00:01:01]:
Hmm. So today there's several things that we were going to talk about. We want to start out with talking about shame as a missed opportunity for kindness. That's something that you've said. Do you remember where that comes from?
Walker [00:01:26]:
There are multiple examples.
Theresa [00:01:29]:
Okay.
Walker [00:01:29]:
Over my life where I was given the opportunity to step forward to help somebody in one way or another that I let slip through my fingers.
Theresa [00:01:46]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:01:47]:
And there's some piece of shame associated with the memories when I think about it.
Theresa [00:01:54]:
Okay. Yeah.
Walker [00:01:56]:
A not enoughness. I wasn't a good enough person.
Theresa [00:02:02]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:02:03]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:02:05]:
You know, when you said that and I was thinking about talking about it today, one of the other things I was thinking about was not just a missed opportunity for kindness to others, but also to herself.
Walker [00:02:20]:
Sure.
Theresa [00:02:21]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Theresa [00:02:24]:
Because then when we. We do have regret or guilt or shame, then mostly I think we're reinforcing a negative story about whether we're a good person or not.
Walker [00:02:38]:
Sure. And it's interesting because I think, like me, many people that's not on the radar screen or a second.
Theresa [00:02:48]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:02:48]:
Tell me more. What are you thinking?
Walker [00:02:51]:
Thinking about ways that we let other people down or we let ourselves down by not acting for other people versus times we let ourselves down because we were not acting on our own behalf as if we were our own best friend. The beloved of ourself.
Theresa [00:03:13]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:03:14]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:03:15]:
It's so interesting that you say that because sometimes being the beloved of ourself is not acting in what appears to be the benefit of someone I was thinking about rescuing.
Theresa [00:03:31]:
Right.
Walker [00:03:32]:
Tell us more.
Theresa [00:03:33]:
Well, just how you know, when you were speaking, I was what I met. What popped in my mind was how, you know, how do we not. How do we reconcile in our mind not helping someone who maybe we witness struggling or has asked us for help. Like, where's the balance there? And I was thinking that we can actually set a healthy boundary and make a choice that is in our highest good and in the highest good of the other. And we could still feel shame about it because of the way that we've been trained or conditioned.
Walker [00:04:32]:
Sure.
Theresa [00:04:35]:
So, like everything, it's complex.
Walker [00:04:38]:
It is. I was thinking while you were talking, you know, maybe I could give some examples.
Theresa [00:04:44]:
Sure.
Walker [00:04:44]:
And then we could talk about, well, what are the rescuing aspects of that versus just a missed opportunity? And. And it's not. I don't walk around. I don't think I walk around with a lot of shame about those instances, but they are missed opportunities, potentially. Or potentially. It's what you're talking about. So I don't know.
Theresa [00:05:09]:
Yeah. It's so funny.
Walker [00:05:10]:
Are you ready?
Theresa [00:05:12]:
Yeah. I don't want to forget this. So will you forget what you were going to say?
Walker [00:05:19]:
No.
Theresa [00:05:19]:
No. Okay. No. Okay. So I'm ready, you're ready. And I don't think I shared this with you, but I don't think we hug people very well. And I mean, I don't think there is a connection. You know, I think a lot of times we're hugging because we're supposed to be hugging.
Theresa [00:05:42]:
Maybe it's a family member. It seems appropriate or whatever. And for whatever reason, when Xander and I were in Chicago over the weekend, we were leaving the Airbnb we were staying at, and we were driving by this hotel and there was an like an obvious like older father, like I would say 80s or 90s, and his probably closer to our age son hugging in front of the hotel. But it was a tap, tap. Not even like, like, no. None of their body touching other than like they both just leaned in and like, tap, tap. And there was a part of me that wanted to yell out the window, like, I. And I had some like, missed opportunity experience.
Theresa [00:06:35]:
That's words coming up. But part of me wanted to roll down the window and say, you guys need to try that hug again. Because mean it, whatever it is. Right. Because we can be struggling with someone and still send them love.
Walker [00:06:54]:
Right.
Theresa [00:06:56]:
But anyway, I was like, dang it, missed opportunity. I wish I had rolled down the window and not, you know, not done it in a shaming way, but in an empowering way. Like, it's okay. We need so much permission.
Walker [00:07:14]:
Get on in there, boys.
Theresa [00:07:15]:
That's right. I don't even know exactly what I wouldn't said, but yeah, yeah, do over.
Walker [00:07:25]:
I'll push people's hands out of the way, you know, when they. It's like, I'll come on in here, you know, And I mean, you kind of sense.
Theresa [00:07:33]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:07:34]:
And.
Theresa [00:07:35]:
Well, maybe.
Walker [00:07:36]:
Or maybe not.
Theresa [00:07:37]:
Or maybe not.
Walker [00:07:38]:
It is what it is. I was talking to Libby, my Daughter about that. Because she hugged everybody when she was little.
Theresa [00:07:46]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:07:46]:
She just loved everybody, and it would break her heart. And Mother's Day out even. You know, she's two. She would be so heartbroken that people didn't like her hugs. We just had that conversation after you and I went there for Thanksgiving.
Theresa [00:08:05]:
Oh, yeah. Connection being seen. Validated.
Theresa [00:08:13]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:08:15]:
Anyway, so shame. Missed opportunities. Let's go back there.
Walker [00:08:19]:
Yeah. Do you have shame about not saying something to the.
Theresa [00:08:22]:
No. Just a little regret. Just a little regret. Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:08:31]:
What held you back?
Theresa [00:08:36]:
I don't think I thought of it quick enough.
Walker [00:08:38]:
Chicago traffic.
Theresa [00:08:39]:
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And I think sometimes, like, I like to process things or I'm trying to figure out what I would say. So it was probably that, you know, some of it was probably traffic. Some of it was, you know, what would I say? Not having time to process. Yeah. I'll just stop here in the middle of the street while I think about what I want to say.
Theresa [00:09:06]:
Then I can roll my window down.
Walker [00:09:07]:
Okay.
Theresa [00:09:08]:
Yeah. Glad you didn't do that. Yeah. Yeah. No, but sometimes I. I mean, as fast as my brain processes, sometimes not as fast as I'd like it to. So. Missed opportunities for kindness.
Walker [00:09:26]:
Sure. There are many for me.
Theresa [00:09:29]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:09:31]:
What does that say about me? There's the shame piece coming right in. Fascinating. The first one that I can think of is in junior high, it was an old building that had. You could. They had rails on the outside from the parking lot. You could go down a ramp to get into the basement under the gym.
Theresa [00:09:58]:
Okay.
Walker [00:09:59]:
And so all the eighth graders, that was their spot, this railing. And they'd sit on the railing, and everybody would mill about, etc. And there was this developmentally challenged young man named Leroy. And Leroy was. The system had passed him through.
Walker [00:10:24]:
Right.
Walker [00:10:25]:
They just kept pushing him on because nobody wanted to deal with it. But he was the sweetest. Probably six year old.
Theresa [00:10:33]:
Wow.
Walker [00:10:33]:
Maybe. And at the bottom of the ramp, down the ramp and to the bottom, they called it the spit pit. And when children were being cruel to one another, they would grab somebody's jacket or their books or something, they'd throw it down in the spit pit. And then everybody sitting there, if you had to run down to get your stuff, it was the gauntlet.
Theresa [00:10:58]:
Wow.
Walker [00:11:00]:
And Leroy was really heavy, you know, and didn't have any money. And his shirts were. You know, his belly was always out of his shirt, and they were dirty and torn. You know, all those things. I mean, this is somebody that, you know, needed protecting.
Theresa [00:11:26]:
Yes.
Walker [00:11:29]:
So somebody threw Leroy's jacket down there. And I was a watcher. I did not spit on Leroy, but I was just a watcher, as everyone was jeering, et cetera. And he was laughing, you know, thinking it was funny. Enjoying the attention, really. But not.
Theresa [00:11:50]:
Right. Right.
Walker [00:11:51]:
And so I can still see his face and these gray hazel eyes looking up at the crowd, leaning over that railing and putting his hand up. Don't you spit on me.
Theresa [00:12:08]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:12:09]:
So there's still shame associated with that. And I don't think that's rescuing. No, that is somebody that I could have helped, because I could have. It was big.
Theresa [00:12:22]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:12:24]:
And people liked me. So if I could go back in time, I would have told everybody to cut it out and walk down with Leroy to get his stuff.
Theresa [00:12:37]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:12:39]:
So it's hard to be brave.
Walker [00:12:43]:
Yeah. Well, it's a repeat thing, now that you had me thinking about it.
Theresa [00:12:48]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:12:49]:
Tell me more.
Walker [00:12:50]:
Well, when I was in college, there was a John Cougar concert in Kansas City. So a friend and I drove over. Drove over. It's in the days where you had to go stand in line from early in the morning to try to get the best seat. And we drove over. I don't know. Got her. 10pm the night before.
Walker [00:13:19]:
Would wait all night, and we're in line, and there's this. His name's not coming to me. I could probably remember it, though, just because this was so impactful. But he was a little bit likely, Roy. Not nearly that challenged, but he was. We were standing outside of Kemper arena or wherever we were. But in any event, we're on the sidewalk in downtown Kansas City, and this is before all the urban renewal, so it was a little bit rough. Not terribly.
Walker [00:13:57]:
Not compared to big, bigger cities. But he's sitting there and he's. I think he was first in line. And there was a, you know, one of those very loud, aggressive young guys that, for whatever reason, I think he wanted his spot. So he was trying to intimidate everybody in the line. And the guy's name was Randy, not the bad actor. But in any event, all of a sudden, this guy went after Randy. And we were probably.
Walker [00:14:42]:
I don't know, my best friend and I were five people back standing there, and I just watched. So he starts wailing on Randy, and Randy's basically helpless. And these two guys that are a couple behind us, boom, immediately go running up there, grab the guy, shove him up against the wall and hold him.
Theresa [00:15:12]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:15:12]:
To save Randy. And through all that process, my friend and I both just stood there, hearts racing but not acting frozen. Yes.
Theresa [00:15:22]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:15:25]:
And so after they. They didn't pound him, but they roughed him up. There were a couple of med students at UMKC in the six year program and they were scared to death afterwards that they were going to get expelled.
Theresa [00:15:41]:
Wow.
Theresa [00:15:42]:
Wow.
Walker [00:15:42]:
So they came over. The guy just loudmouth, I'm going to get my friends. I'll be back. All that stuff just screeching all the way down the street that he was coming back for his revenge. And they came up to us because we were basically the next two biggest guys there, the watchers. So still, shame could have killed Randy for all I know.
Theresa [00:16:09]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:16:10]:
It was outrageous. And to. To know that I stood by and did nothing and they didn't even hesitate. That's who I want to be.
Theresa [00:16:23]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:16:27]:
Aren't you doing that work?
Walker [00:16:29]:
Oh, absolutely.
Theresa [00:16:31]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:16:32]:
But I want to be the person that it just. There's not any hesitation. You see wrong being done. And you. These days. This is a long time ago, 1980s. Not everybody was carrying a gun back then. Etc, so.
Walker [00:16:53]:
But it's not as if violent crime didn't happen. That was violent crime. Now whether that guy had been armed, etc, I don't know what was going through my mind. All I know is we froze.
Theresa [00:17:02]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:17:03]:
So those guys came up and they just said, hey, you know, we're really worried we're gonna get kicked out of school for that. If he comes back with friends, will you help? And we said, yes, we will.
Theresa [00:17:13]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:17:14]:
And then everybody's hyper vigilant etc. And he didn't show back up.
Theresa [00:17:17]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:17:18]:
Until the concert and security hauled that guy out. So it was a missed opportunity. Something that I would change if I could go back.
Theresa [00:17:32]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:17:33]:
I would still be scared though. And you hear the things in the news about people getting attacked on the trains or those sorts of things. I want to be the person that steps in regardless of the risk.
Theresa [00:17:48]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:17:49]:
Not letting you kill this person.
Theresa [00:17:51]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:17:54]:
Not if I can stop you. So rescuing.
Theresa [00:17:58]:
No. Well, yes, but not in the way that we talk about it typically in the mental health field.
Walker [00:18:08]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Walker [00:18:11]:
So those were opportunities the universe gave me to learn.
Theresa [00:18:18]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:18:19]:
So then the issue is you can. In those situations you can get hurt.
Theresa [00:18:26]:
Yeah, absolutely.
Walker [00:18:27]:
Killed.
Theresa [00:18:28]:
Absolutely.
Theresa [00:18:30]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:18:31]:
And I think my choice is that's what I will do if I see that again.
Theresa [00:18:43]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:18:44]:
So there's other times too.
Theresa [00:18:55]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:18:55]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:18:57]:
Do you want to keep going?
Walker [00:18:59]:
I do. Just to give another different scenario example. This one's much more innocuous and just. But it's really struck Home with me.
Theresa [00:19:07]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:19:08]:
And I've told you about it before. You know, I'm a young man just out of law school. I've got a modest house in a small town in. In a cute little neighborhood, but nothing fancy at all. And we didn't have a lot of money, but we had, you know, enough that if I'd wanted to do this. So a girl scout came to the.
Walker [00:19:31]:
Door.
Walker [00:19:34]:
And instead of just buying a box of cookies from her.
Theresa [00:19:37]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:19:38]:
I said I couldn't. And then I, you know, closer. She's like, okay. And I closed the door and I went back in. And two seconds later I was like, oh. So I turned around and came back out and she was gone.
Theresa [00:19:50]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:19:50]:
I walked up the street. She was nowhere to be found. She probably went through the side yard in tears. So I swore to myself at that point, if some kid ever comes up and asks me at my door, do you want to buy this? Yeah, I'm buying.
Theresa [00:20:08]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:20:09]:
Even if it's just one.
Theresa [00:20:11]:
Right.
Walker [00:20:11]:
And to tell them, hey, that takes a lot of courage to do that.
Theresa [00:20:15]:
Thank you.
Walker [00:20:18]:
Talk about a missed opportunity. Just. It would, in the big scheme of things, cost me nothing to have potentially made a big impact. You know that moment that you take to just hold somebody in that space. You have value and, and being able to dig deep. Because that takes courage.
Theresa [00:20:42]:
It does.
Walker [00:20:44]:
And just to be able to hold that space for them, to encourage it. Don't want to do that again. Rescuing little bit.
Theresa [00:21:03]:
I think it's hard, babe. I don't think anything's so simple. Maybe. Maybe what she needed was to not make the sale. I don't know.
Walker [00:21:24]:
I don't know either. And that's true.
Theresa [00:21:26]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:21:27]:
But I'm sitting here thinking, what if it had been a Kirby vacuum salesman?
Theresa [00:21:30]:
Right.
Walker [00:21:30]:
500, $700 in the 70s for a vacuum or Encyclopedia Britannica salesman.
Theresa [00:21:38]:
Oh yeah.
Walker [00:21:38]:
Somebody who. But I don't have that same soft spot in my heart for the adult who is scrapping to feed their family with door to door sales.
Theresa [00:21:47]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:21:49]:
Versus a child.
Theresa [00:21:51]:
A child.
Theresa [00:21:52]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:21:52]:
No, I hear you.
Walker [00:21:54]:
And the. Are they really any different? Maybe. But usually the adults want a lot more money.
Theresa [00:22:05]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:22:05]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:22:06]:
Not three dollars.
Walker [00:22:07]:
It was 250 at the. I think it may have been two bucks.
Theresa [00:22:10]:
Two bucks for a box of girls. Oh, you're shaming your. Yourself again.
Walker [00:22:15]:
I. Well, it's just like. Really? You can't go find eight quarters somewhere? Oh, no. Yeah. The. The shame pieces is some. A piece of that. That I think we should talk about and why do we do it and what should we do about it? How do you deal with it? What do you think? Kind of wisdom?
Theresa [00:22:39]:
Well, you know, it's interesting going back to the door to door person. I think, man, there's just so much that goes into it, you know.
Theresa [00:22:56]:
Can.
Theresa [00:22:56]:
We even pause and think about it? Regardless of what is presented to us? Right. Is really what I'm thinking about. Not just the door to door sales, whether it's an adult or a child, but can we pause or are we just reacting? Are we reacting to an old story? Are we tired? Are we sick? Are we. Are we broke? Right. Yeah, Broke, broke. I would guess there was very, very little that we purchased growing up from anybody that came door to door.
Theresa [00:23:28]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:23:29]:
So. But now in our life, can we pause to. To think about it? To think about the, you know, what's being asked of us, or is it reactive? Because it can be reactive, yes. Reactive, no. It doesn't have to just be your reactive. No. A reactive. Yes.
Theresa [00:23:53]:
Is often rescuing, you know, whether it's avoidance of ourself or wanting them to avoid, you know, uncomfortableness. I'm not talking about Leroy or Randy because to me, I would have harmed someone. So. Because I was a fighter when I.
Walker [00:24:11]:
Was younger, you'd have been those guys right up immediately.
Theresa [00:24:15]:
Yeah, Yeah.
Theresa [00:24:17]:
I broke some kid in the neighborhood's hand because he was picking on my brother. Yeah, Yeah. I think he was a year older than me. I still remember his name. Anyway, I won't say it out loud, but yeah, there was. I mean, it's interesting because as you were sharing that, I thought, man. But it wasn't like I thought about it either. It was a reactive decision.
Theresa [00:24:45]:
Right. That I was having. Whether that or I remember, like, it was hard for me to. Ooh, it's gonna make me bringing it. Often when the abuse was happening, my parents were frozen and they didn't get up off the couch. That's my phrase. Right.
Walker [00:25:19]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:25:20]:
Because they didn't know what to do. And so for me, I don't sit on the couch. What I've learned is how for it to not be reactive. I've learned for it to be more intentional. But I put myself in danger, you know, out of reacting and proving I was brave and strong. And I remember once, I was 16 driving, and my parents were in their car driving, and we were going to my grandparents, and we were like next to each other at a stoplight, and there was. So it was like a T intersection and we were going straight and there was A metro bus? No, it couldn't have been a t intersection because there was a car in the left hand turn lane, but there was a metro bus crossing in front of us and like going left and the car that was in the left hand turn lane had. It had died in the middle of the intersection and it was full of people.
Theresa [00:26:46]:
And the metro bus, when the light turned green, decided to try to go. And then there were cars behind it. And so the metro bus ends up getting stuck in the middle of the intersection. Can't go forward, can't go backward, and everybody's just sitting there. And I'm like, well, this is crazy. And not thinking about it, I mean, that this is crazy. Was probably instantaneous. I wasn't actually thinking about it.
Theresa [00:27:17]:
And I got out of my car and told the people that were in the car that had died in the intersection to put it in neutral. And I got in between the car and the metro bus and pushed the car out of the intersection and then got in my car and drove the rest of the way to my grandparents. And I remember my parents being like, who is that person? You know, like, I mean, like they knew it was me, but I mean, like, I think that was something that was always like a thing for them, like, who is she, you know, doing that? But I couldn't sit on the couch. And I don't want to say that I always responded. I'm sure there are times that I did not respond. But I've put a lot of effort as an adult to. To doing it intentionally. Even if I'm afraid.
Walker [00:28:24]:
There'S a. A balance there somewhere. When I've been in public places where somebody is raising their voice and they're, you know, putting. They're being cruel to somebody or threatening. Not in a actual hands on way like with Randy. And the question at that point is where. What's the point where you. Do we have any responsibility to intervene? And that's a personal decision.
Theresa [00:29:03]:
Absolutely, absolutely.
Walker [00:29:05]:
And where do you. Where is the point where you step in? It's a good way to get shot these days.
Theresa [00:29:15]:
Well, and I don't know how many people carry guns or don't carry guns. I just know that it's more than it used to be.
Walker [00:29:21]:
Right.
Theresa [00:29:23]:
I don't actually ever think of getting shot for sure. After I became a mother, you know what, I chose to be brave around changed. There was, I think, a pretty instantaneous response to I need to be here to raise my children. I think we've talked about this a little bit before, but it Would depend on the circumstances.
Walker [00:29:58]:
Right.
Theresa [00:29:59]:
It really would be a time where I would, you know, think clearly as best I could about what choice am I making? Do I trust myself? Do I trust others? I mean, what I can tell you is when I see people being brave. Whoo. I mean, I just cry. I mean, you know, like, if there's, like, a real, you know, or, you know, some clip that comes up on my phone, which will probably start now again tonight, since we're talking about it, and my phone's in the same room. But when I see those things, you know, like, you know, somebody caught in a rip current and people form a human chain to go out and save that person. I mean, that just. I mean, so many people being brave. Yeah.
Theresa [00:30:57]:
To save somebody. Right.
Walker [00:30:59]:
Yeah. And some people drown doing it, too.
Theresa [00:31:01]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:31:02]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:31:02]:
There was actually a homeless man that drowned in Yachats this year trying to save someone that that happened to.
Walker [00:31:10]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:31:10]:
It's really sad. I'm pretty sure that you met him.
Walker [00:31:15]:
Oh, really? You think that was him?
Theresa [00:31:17]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:31:19]:
Yes, I helped him out.
Theresa [00:31:20]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Theresa [00:31:25]:
Risking his life to save somebody. Mm.
Theresa [00:31:32]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:31:35]:
It's hard, babe. I don't think there's an answer. I just think, what. What's our integrity? Right. I mean, what's the best we can do in that moment?
Walker [00:31:46]:
Right.
Theresa [00:31:47]:
You know, because to me, it's like, can we reduce the amount of shame? Because I don't think shame reinforces good behavior or good choices or thoughtful choices, you know?
Walker [00:31:58]:
Sure, if you think it's interesting to me, because I. What life do you want to live? The one where you tried to save somebody's life, even if you failed and died, or where you turned your back. But then there's also a part of me that would assess my abilities to swim, the chances of us both drowning.
Theresa [00:32:26]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:32:27]:
That would go through my head, to be quite honest about it. I'm not sure I would dive into the Pacific Ocean.
Theresa [00:32:33]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:32:35]:
With a riptide.
Theresa [00:32:37]:
Right.
Walker [00:32:38]:
Or sneaker wave, whatever it is that got the person to go do that.
Theresa [00:32:43]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:32:44]:
And I feel shame in talking about saying that, but that's the honest truth.
Theresa [00:32:49]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:32:53]:
It's like the man that died a couple of years ago at the Devil's churn, Right. When he tried to jump across the chasm and fell in. And, you know, it's just crazy in there.
Theresa [00:33:03]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:33:04]:
And the paramedics would not go in.
Theresa [00:33:06]:
Right.
Walker [00:33:07]:
Because they were not right. Water rescue trained for that scenario, and they didn't have the equipment, so they made a calculated decision. This is my understanding from reading the news accounts, I wasn't there. We don't need five dead people.
Theresa [00:33:28]:
Right.
Walker [00:33:29]:
Versus one. But it's just horrific.
Theresa [00:33:31]:
It is.
Walker [00:33:32]:
And my guess is the trauma from that is lifelong.
Theresa [00:33:37]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:33:38]:
Making that decision and choosing not to.
Theresa [00:33:42]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:33:44]:
But it would be. If you've seen this place. It's a chasm that comes in from the ocean that the waves have cut into the basalt, and it just swells and crashes 30ft high. It's insane.
Theresa [00:34:01]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:34:03]:
So what do you.
Theresa [00:34:04]:
Do.
Walker [00:34:07]:
You think you'd dive in?
Theresa [00:34:09]:
No, no. But for me, I'm always planning, you know, the. What do I need to have on me to be able to help. Help someone. Right, right, right.
Theresa [00:34:28]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:34:29]:
How. How would I respond?
Theresa [00:34:31]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:34:32]:
What would I do?
Theresa [00:34:34]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:34:35]:
There's always a part of me that's looking.
Theresa [00:34:38]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:34:40]:
Those. To me, they're all opportunities. And it doesn't have to be right or wrong, but it does have consequences.
Theresa [00:34:48]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:34:48]:
Choices that we make or are oblivious.
Theresa [00:34:51]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:34:52]:
Response.
Theresa [00:34:53]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:34:53]:
Maybe we don't even notice because we're present enough. If you were to be the therapist for one of those first responders who is standing there. There were other people who had tied together belts and clothes and tried to throw down a lifeline. This guy would grab hold, and then he would lose it with the next wave until he hit his head.
Theresa [00:35:23]:
Right.
Walker [00:35:25]:
But if you were dealing with those people or who didn't dive in.
Theresa [00:35:33]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:35:33]:
Or the paramedics. Especially the paramedics. I think they made a professional decision. It's probably between two. But people were angry.
Theresa [00:35:43]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:35:44]:
I know.
Walker [00:35:46]:
How would you help with the shame of that?
Theresa [00:35:51]:
Well, having worked with first responders, veterans for years, you know, there's so much that goes into what they call a moral injury. Mm.
Walker [00:36:12]:
It's deep.
Theresa [00:36:13]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Theresa [00:36:16]:
And some people don't recover. You know, some of the suicide is that, you know, they don't find their way out. The shame is too much, I think, holding space for them. Well, not trying to talk them out of it. Allowing them to work through the process, supporting their body in the process. You know, I wish we could think our way out of trauma, but that doesn't tend to be how it works. Loving them. I mean, truly loving them.
Theresa [00:37:09]:
Because they don't feel lovable.
Theresa [00:37:15]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:37:17]:
Even the ones that tried, you know, the ones that couldn't, you know, ordered not to, whatever. But the ones that tried to and failed, there's still a significant amount of shame that can go along. I mean, that was, I would say, for me, my first awareness of, like, secondary trauma. As a therapist was, you know, working. I'm not going to repeat the story because it's too much. Nobody needs that in their mind. But he did try and he was unsuccessful and he was working through it so much. And it's so interesting because, my gosh, I probably haven't seen him in over 10 years, but he actually showed up on my, you know, like, friend request things, and I was like, whoa, I haven't seen that name in a really long time.
Theresa [00:38:31]:
And I just remember, you know, him trying to work through that, not feeling like he was strong enough, good enough. Just the sadness and the grief and, you know, will I be able to be successful next time? And so it's a lot. Yeah. And for me, it was his reality, was my biggest fear. And so that's, you know, part of what stuck to me about it. It was just so resonant with my own fear.
Theresa [00:39:24]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:39:29]:
So holding space, unconditional love, not trying to talk them out of it, supporting them, explaining the body and the mind. I think that peace, but not telling somebody they shouldn't feel that way. I don't think that's helpful.
Walker [00:39:47]:
Sure.
Theresa [00:39:48]:
Or, you know, why are you still thinking about it? It's been 10 years, whatever, you know, like.
Walker [00:39:54]:
Yes. Just get over it.
Theresa [00:39:56]:
Right, Right. There was nothing you could do to move on. Right. If we were that simple. So. Oh.
Walker [00:40:06]:
Not every choice to help somebody is a life or death situation for the. For us.
Theresa [00:40:15]:
No.
Walker [00:40:15]:
As. As a potential actor.
Theresa [00:40:17]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:40:18]:
Right. And I talk. I've done it several times in closing arguments and trial.
Theresa [00:40:24]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:40:25]:
You are. Have been put in a position where you can make a difference. You. And. And you have the power. Because maybe you wanted to help people before, but now you've got the power to do it if you choose to do it. It.
Theresa [00:40:40]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:40:40]:
And the question is, why are we here?
Theresa [00:40:44]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:40:45]:
Are we here to help our fellow man, fellow woman, fellow people?
Theresa [00:40:51]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:40:53]:
Are we here to choose to turn away? And it's powerful stuff, but even I don't always step up. I want to do it more and more.
Theresa [00:41:08]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:41:09]:
I mean, when I think about, you know, who you put effort into being, you know, and even watching you grow, you know, as an attorney over the last seven or eight years, I think you're more brave than you were when I met you.
Walker [00:41:32]:
I agree.
Theresa [00:41:35]:
Willing.
Walker [00:41:37]:
The safety part for me as a child was to freeze.
Theresa [00:41:41]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:41:41]:
Absolutely.
Walker [00:41:42]:
It's the only way to survive. Survive. That I could find.
Theresa [00:41:46]:
Right.
Walker [00:41:46]:
Fighting back was not going to.
Theresa [00:41:48]:
Right.
Walker [00:41:49]:
Stop it.
Theresa [00:41:50]:
Right.
Walker [00:41:52]:
So my work is to overcome that.
Theresa [00:41:55]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:41:57]:
Every day you work on overcoming your freeze.
Walker [00:42:00]:
I do.
Theresa [00:42:03]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:42:04]:
Our body's just trying to protect us.
Walker [00:42:06]:
Yeah. Well. And that just so people know, that's going to be the subject of our next retreat.
Theresa [00:42:14]:
Yes. Becoming unshakable. Yeah. From self doubt to daring.
Walker [00:42:21]:
From self doubt to daring. And I chose the daring.
Theresa [00:42:25]:
Yes, you did.
Walker [00:42:26]:
There are so many opportunities that I've been given to be daring.
Theresa [00:42:31]:
Yes.
Walker [00:42:32]:
In my career that I've taken now. And I think we've got a lot to share with people and maybe help others overcome that freeze response like mine. Or there's many other responses.
Theresa [00:42:46]:
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To come into presence and groundedness and be able to be intentional and thoughtful in our decisions. Yes. To be brave, you know, doing things even when we're afraid.
Walker [00:43:00]:
And to recognize the power of vulnerability.
Theresa [00:43:03]:
Yes.
Walker [00:43:04]:
And this is my. I repeat it. But it's true.
Theresa [00:43:08]:
Yes. Yeah.
Walker [00:43:10]:
In the courtroom and in life.
Theresa [00:43:12]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker [00:43:13]:
What have we got to lose? Ultimately? We're all have a one way ticket.
Theresa [00:43:19]:
Yes.
Walker [00:43:20]:
It may be repeated depending on your beliefs.
Theresa [00:43:23]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:43:24]:
But it's a one way ticket this time.
Theresa [00:43:26]:
Yeah.
Walker [00:43:28]:
So what do we choose?
Theresa [00:43:30]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:43:31]:
What do we choose?
Walker [00:43:32]:
And do we freeze ourselves and beat ourselves up because we didn't choose that time or that time. Or that time. Or that time. Well, today's the day.
Theresa [00:43:40]:
Today's the day.
Walker [00:43:41]:
And if it's not today.
Theresa [00:43:42]:
Yeah.
Theresa [00:43:43]:
There'll be another opportunity.
Walker [00:43:45]:
Then I'll try again tomorrow.
Theresa [00:43:47]:
Yeah, yeah.
Walker [00:43:48]:
So I'm excited about it. I have a lot to share along those lines. I've had to do a lot.
Theresa [00:43:53]:
Yes.
Walker [00:43:53]:
In my training.
Theresa [00:43:54]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Walker [00:43:57]:
What?
Theresa [00:43:58]:
I was just thinking maybe you'll let me do that exercise I keep wanting to do and you're like, oh, another liability release. It's not that dangerous. But you're an attorney.
Walker [00:44:17]:
Yes, I am.
Theresa [00:44:22]:
Oh, you, you. I love you.
Walker [00:44:30]:
I love you too.
Theresa [00:44:31]:
Thanks for the conversation today.
Walker [00:44:33]:
Yeah. I'm grateful for the opportunity to do this.
Theresa [00:44:39]:
Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth and we strive to be more compassionate and every day.