It Is What It Is
In this thought-provoking episode, hosts Walker Bird and Theresa Hubbard unpack the layered meaning behind the phrase "It is what it is." Through personal stories and heartfelt reflections, they explore how acceptance, self-awareness, and thoughtful communication shape our experiences and relationships.
Together, the hosts dive into the complexities of parenting, codependency, and embracing imperfections. Walker offers insights on using "It is what it is" as a lens for navigating challenges, including his own journey through divorce.
The conversation spans diverse topics: the mind-body connection, the art of mindful communication, and the balance between spontaneity and intentional living. Whether discussing emotional disconnection or behavior patterns, Walker and Theresa guide listeners toward resilience and growth, helping them align with their inner knowing.
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Episode Transcript
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life. Each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path. How are you?
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:33]:
I'm good. How are you? Good, good.
Walker Bird [00:00:37]:
Happy to see you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:38]:
Yeah, good to see you, too. Yeah. So you're out in Oregon.
Walker Bird [00:00:43]:
Yeah. Doesn't look like Missouri anymore.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:47]:
No, no, no. You're working on the place that's going to be our future retreat center. Home.
Walker Bird [00:00:54]:
Yes.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:55]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a beautiful place. So I'm glad you get to be there. And I'm glad we get to do this this way, too.
Walker Bird [00:01:06]:
Me too.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:07]:
Yeah. It's nice. So today we're talking about it is what it is. So where would you like to start?
Walker Bird [00:01:21]:
Well, it's probably a phrase that I started in our relationship. Not about our relationship, but just about the period of time where, you know, I was starting my journey, basically.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:36]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:01:37]:
And trying to come into a space of more allowing, you know, accepting the circumstances of life and working towards being content with how things are. Not having to change my experience, but coming into a more, I guess, observational role.
Theresa Hubbard [00:02:12]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:02:13]:
Finding the good where you are.
Theresa Hubbard [00:02:17]:
So for you, more like a mantra.
Walker Bird [00:02:20]:
Well, yes. And. And also, you know, when feelings of judgment or victim, you know, perception being victimy. Because I was, you know, it was the midst of my divorce, which went on forever, and just a lot of different challenges. Personally, it was important to be able to recognize when I was getting into those modes of thinking, whether it was being the victim or fighting with God, feeling like I was being punished for things I'd done in the past, you know, things like that. And so it's a phrase with a lot of meaning for me to change my default network, I guess.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:12]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:03:13]:
Shift gears.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:14]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:03:15]:
You say it is what it is and accept where I am. It doesn't mean that I'm turning passive or giving up or anything else. It's just recognizing instead of being in a judgment mode myself to shift into something else. It's just those challenges that help us grow. It is what it is. Helps me remember that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:40]:
Yeah. Yeah. Was it something that you feel like was always helpful? Was there a period of time where that phrase maybe meant something else? Maybe more dismissive or maybe more passive? Or. Do you think that. Not for you, not for me.
Walker Bird [00:04:03]:
I don't think so, anyway. I mean, you may have made other observations along the way. You know, as I am in and out of presence and just the human condition and more so present now than before, but still it comes and goes.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:20]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:04:21]:
So I may have said it in a dismissive way, but I don't think I've used it that way because it's significant for me. And there was another phrase that you taught me, which is, of course they did.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:36]:
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Walker Bird [00:04:42]:
Which is. I probably have used that in a more sassy way, I think, you know, of course they did. But it's useful regardless, just because it also helps reset your brain into I am where I am, and I don't have to be trending downward or depressed or victimized or anything else. Yeah, that's stuck. And trying to figure out the, you know, the motivation behind other people's behaviors. So I think the two phrases actually go hand in hand. And I know this is. It is what it is episode.
Walker Bird [00:05:33]:
But of course they did is a really helpful adjunct.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:40]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:05:40]:
has been for me.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:42]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:05:43]:
And it's a way for me to just, like, shift out of it, you know, it's like those Emmer effers, you know, how can they Blah, blah, blah. Well, of course they did, I think, is your wisdom. And maybe you could share with us your wisdom behind it, you know, what it means to you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:00]:
Sure. You know, for me, what I noticed over the years was that people, you know, when they would come into therapy, would. There was often, like, an element of surprise that they were demonstrating, which I felt like was genuine at somebody's, you know, behavior that was really that person's pattern. And so, of course, me sitting in the chair I'm sitting in, I can see the pattern happening. And so for me, if someone came in and were sharing with me a behavior of another person, it didn't matter. Family member, boss, co worker, doesn't matter, friend. It wasn't surprising to me. And when I think about how do we change our.
Theresa Hubbard [00:07:01]:
The connections in our brain? For me, it's having conversation with ourselves. And so when someone would do something, even if we felt surprise in our body, if we could say to ourself, of course they did. Of course they did, maybe it would stop being so surprising for my body. Maybe it would stop being so traumatic for me to be so surprised when it really was their pattern they were demonstrating. And so it's. It. It is for me when I'm sharing that with someone, really an attempt to change our body's experience of that. So of course they did.
Theresa Hubbard [00:07:48]:
Of course they did. And it's not about them, really, as it is about me, the person that it's. That's experiencing it.
Walker Bird [00:07:58]:
We have choice.
Theresa Hubbard [00:07:59]:
We have choice. Right.
Walker Bird [00:08:01]:
How will we react?
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:02]:
How will we react? Right. And I recognize that, you know, we can have this incongruence, you know, because trauma to me is, you know, what. What did our body not predict happening negatively. So if I can train my body and my mind to expect it instead of continuing to be surprised, maybe it will cause me less pain. Maybe I won't feel as helpless. Maybe I can find more safety even in myself if I cannot be surprised by the pattern of behavior that someone exhibits. So I think about that, and then I think with that, I. I need to share a little bit about patterns and exceptions to behavior because we often.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:59]:
And I don't know why. It's not something I've studied, but why we can give so much value to exceptions to behavior instead of patterns of behavior. And I'm sure there's a reason. But whether we negatively value exceptions to behavior, like someone in our life consistently in their pattern shows that they love us and care for us, and that is demonstrated regularly. And then they have a bad day or they're not well, and they act out of their pattern, and then we can blow that up into, oh, my gosh, whatever. You know, they don't care about me. They don't love me. They don't.
Theresa Hubbard [00:09:44]:
Right. When it was just an exception to their behavior. It's not their pattern. And then also, if you want to go the other way, which is someone consistently shows us the pattern of behavior is not healthy and it's harmful to us, and then they do something that's an exception to their behavior, it's positive. And then we overvalue that, and then it's like, oh, gosh, okay.
Walker Bird [00:10:11]:
Well, that makes me think of narcissism or narcissistic people or narcissists.
Theresa Hubbard [00:10:18]:
Sure. And I don't think it has to be that. But sure. In the narcissist world realm. Right. And whether you're, you know, have a personality disorder or, you know, again, we all have narcissistic traits. But again, I'm looking at exceptions to behavior versus patterns of behavior. And so.
Theresa Hubbard [00:10:37]:
But yes, that would be part of someone who is a narcissist, that they would do one caring, empathetic, selfless thing once every three or six months. And then we're like, oh, yeah, it's fine, it's fine. It's like, really? No, their pattern of behavior is really.
Walker Bird [00:11:00]:
Very harmful or Multiple in a row.
Theresa Hubbard [00:11:03]:
Or multiple in a row. Right. But again, exceptions to behavior versus patterns of behavior.
Walker Bird [00:11:09]:
So it's a big teaching, babe. I. You know, and it's one that I'm still learning. So it's part of your wisdom as a therapist for all the thousands or tens of thousands of hours. Hours you've spent working with people. But I believe my. Well, my personal experience, and I would guess this is common. We are.
Walker Bird [00:11:32]:
So when you first start down that road, you're living in a space of just reacting to pretty much everything that happens. You're not really present.
Theresa Hubbard [00:11:47]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:11:49]:
Don't have perspective. And so there's no clue about people's patterns and how that plays into relationship and understanding of actions. And so I. I just. I think that that's where people find themselves. So when you first started talking to me about patterns, I was like, you know, she just thinks differently. And not in the b. Not in the bad.
Walker Bird [00:12:16]:
You know, the. Teresa doesn't know what she's about. Not like that. Just that you process differently. You do process differently than I do. We all do.
Theresa Hubbard [00:12:24]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:12:26]:
But that is not just a processing difference. It's a knowledge difference and an experience difference.
Theresa Hubbard [00:12:33]:
Yeah. And I. I do think it was easier for me, babe, because my brain does see patterns.
Walker Bird [00:12:40]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:12:41]:
It can't help it. How I value those patterns, I think, is the wisdom. I think. I. I think seeing it is easy for my brain, valuing it. And so I'm very cautious. I mean, I've had my own misvaluing of patterns over the years. And so I am.
Theresa Hubbard [00:13:04]:
I'm very cautious when I meet someone new who I feel like is someone that having relationship with would be healthy and connected and fun. And I'm asking myself, are you observing patterns, or do you see what you want to see? Is there some area that you're lacking or struggling with? What's this reaction about for you? Right. Just keep watching patterns, slowing down, taking time, you know, and it doesn't always work. I mean, I was at the office right before this, and, you know, talking to, you know, two of my team, and we were having a great conversation, and I realized there was nothing slow about that conversation. You know, it was like, all, like, energy, emotion, and it wasn't bad. You know, it was just like I wasn't. I was in. Somewhere in my brain.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:16]:
I wasn't as present as I would have liked to have been. Mm. So practice.
Walker Bird [00:14:24]:
It is interesting because I, you know, I'm intuitive. That's how I walk in the world. And I don't know, I think when we're seeing patterns, if you're able to see it or start or inclining the mind to see it, it helps.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:41]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:14:42]:
With choice.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:43]:
Absolutely.
Walker Bird [00:14:44]:
How will I respond to this?
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:47]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:14:47]:
Or like you said, what value do I place on that experience with that person? And I would say that a lot of times still, I'm just in the, you know, in the moment. Do you agree with that? For me, yeah. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:15:12]:
Tell me more about what you're thinking about that.
Walker Bird [00:15:19]:
A lot of times in interactions with people, I don't have a process going on where I'm assessing. Where are we? I'm just experiencing the experience.
Theresa Hubbard [00:15:29]:
Right, Right.
Walker Bird [00:15:33]:
And I don't know. I don't know what I'm saying. I was just. It's. It's an interesting discussion. Right?
Theresa Hubbard [00:15:42]:
Well, yeah. It makes me think about. Are you talking about that in those situations that your observer isn't engaged? Is that.
Walker Bird [00:15:52]:
I would say that's true. And then I would say that it's afterward for me, where the observations may or may not arise. It depends on the experience. Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:01]:
Okay. Okay.
Walker Bird [00:16:02]:
More positive experience, probably less introspection. More negative experience, probably more introspection. Looking at how did that happen and what was. How does that fit into my experiences with this person? I don't know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:27]:
Yeah. Interesting.
Walker Bird [00:16:29]:
So more work to do.
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:32]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:16:33]:
And I think we just. I mean, I know you and I process very differently.
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:37]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:16:37]:
Maybe that's just a difference. That doesn't, you know, mean that I'm not on a, you know, path of growth.
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:46]:
Sure, sure. Yeah. I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that my observer developed as a result of starting meditation or whatever it was there.
Walker Bird [00:17:08]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:10]:
Again, I think that it's. It's just been. I've done a lot of work on its role and its voice and. And its value. Yeah, I do think so.
Walker Bird [00:17:30]:
What do you think?
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:32]:
Huh? No, you. Your microphone cut out of it, so I didn't hear you put my hands.
Walker Bird [00:17:36]:
Up in front of it. Let me ask you this question. When I raised my arms, I blocked it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:41]:
Oh, okay.
Walker Bird [00:17:44]:
What do you think the interplay is between telling yourself it is what it is, or. Of course they did. And the observer role, recognizing patterns. Is there a danger associated with using those phrases to change your mindset?
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:09]:
Okay, so if I think about it is what it is. I. You know, you touched on it earlier about the victim piece. I think it can be a resignation for sure. Like, I have no control. You know, somebody said something to me earlier today about. I don't have choice. And, and I said, okay, let's relanguage that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:43]:
I think it's really important. You do have choice. What you're choosing is to stay, and that's okay. But when you tell yourself you don't have choice, you increase fear in your body, you increase helplessness in your body. And so for me, that, well, it is what it is, you know, can be a helplessness piece, you know, a resignation piece. And, and so I think that could be not very helpful as a you as opposed to using it like you were talking about earlier, which is. It is what it is now. What do I choose?
Walker Bird [00:19:30]:
That really is a critical second part.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:33]:
Absolutely.
Walker Bird [00:19:34]:
Becoming present versus just resigning. You may not even go down to full victim. You may just rush it under the rug and then deal with it later.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:44]:
Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, this. The same could be said about, you know, of course they did, you know, is it a resignation? Right. Is it. Am I reinforcing helplessness or is it. Of course they did. Reinforcing to me the reality of what's happening. So then I have an awareness that I can choose differently.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:15]:
Should I do that? Because I don't have to do that. Right?
Walker Bird [00:20:20]:
Yeah. There doesn't have to be action taken with. Of course they did. To me, it is also a way of diffusing the power that somebody else else's actions have over you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:34]:
Absolutely. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:20:35]:
Because it severs in a way, it severs that cord.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:43]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:20:46]:
So I would guess, you know, now that you. We are digging a little bit deeper. Sometimes it would prolong my victim, but for the most part. No.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:58]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:20:58]:
I think it's just like. Yeah, I'm not going to be controlled by that. I'm not going to let my emotions, my anger or my indignance or whatever it is in response to that. No, of course they did and.
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:11]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:21:12]:
Move on.
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:13]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:21:14]:
And I think there's more choice after that, which is will I continue having interaction or how will I interact differently, etc. Fascinating stuff. Yeah, it is powerful tools that need to. Some practice to be used wisely.
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:31]:
Right, yeah. Oh, I agree. More conversation. More conversation. Always more conversation. You know, it's interesting, you know, tying it into the knowing. You know, I mentioned this earlier when you told me about, you know, the phrase and that it was helpful for you.
Walker Bird [00:21:55]:
It is what it is.
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:57]:
Yeah, it is what it is. Right, right. We were at this antique store and, and, and we saw it, you know, like on this, like, you know, it was a. I don't know, like 2 or 3 inch high, 16, 18 inch long board. Like on this shelf in this room at this antique store. And. And we were laughing. Hahaha.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:22]:
I remember that.
Walker Bird [00:22:26]:
And I liked it. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:27]:
Yeah. And then later you were, you were like, oh, I wish I had gotten that. And I was like, well, you know, go by and, and get it. And you went by and it wasn't there. And, and it was funny because I knew it was there. You know, that was my knowing. And I, and I can't tell you why, I just knew it was there. And so we went together and you showed me.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:53]:
And you were like, see, it's not here. And I was like, it is here. I know it's here. And I, you know those like booze and antique stores can just be full of stuff. Right. Like they just bring in stuff. And so I just started digging around, you know, and in this back corner against the wall, it had fallen off the shelf there. It was laying there.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:20]:
And you still have it and it's displayed.
Walker Bird [00:23:24]:
It is one of my favorite spots.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:28]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:23:34]:
It's fascinating. I mean the, the fact that it was that important for the universe to bring it to you to give to me speaks volumes about its power in my life.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:47]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:23:48]:
Then and now even I still like it. So find it helpful. And which leads me to. Some people don't find it helpful. Like there's a family member that I was talking to at your parents place. It was entirely reactive to that. It is what it is. You know, I'm not being disrespectful to, to her, but she was very reactive and I was just like, wow, you know, I find it really helpful actually.
Walker Bird [00:24:23]:
So what do you think the. And I don't mean about her, but what do you think the reactivity that people have to that. Where does that come from? What do you think about it?
Theresa Hubbard [00:24:40]:
Well, what I imagine is several different things. I think it can be used, you know, again as a deflection, you know, by people. You know, like to me it wouldn't be any different if you're using it that way to be. It's just who I am, you know.
Walker Bird [00:25:00]:
Right. I mean it's like in legal terms you call some arguments a shield and sometimes it's a sword.
Theresa Hubbard [00:25:06]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:25:07]:
But would be another person saying it to you as just an excuse for whatever it is they did.
Theresa Hubbard [00:25:13]:
Right, right, right, right. And so I could see in that regard, you know, if they have somebody in their life who's used that or a form of that as a deflection, as a way to not Change anything. To not put any effort into, you know, there being a different interaction or relationship. I could see how it could be very triggering for someone if they've experienced that.
Walker Bird [00:25:43]:
I think we can use it on ourselves too, right?
Theresa Hubbard [00:25:46]:
Oh, sure. Yeah. What are you thinking when you say that?
Walker Bird [00:25:49]:
Oh, excusing bad choices.
Theresa Hubbard [00:25:54]:
Oh, like if we say I shouldn't.
Walker Bird [00:25:56]:
Say excusing, it's dismissing. It could be used dismissively about bad choices or. Yeah, yeah. Okay.
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:05]:
Yeah, yeah. We could use it. Right. To be deflective and avoidant and.
Walker Bird [00:26:10]:
Of our own behavior.
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:12]:
Yeah. Of our own behavior.
Walker Bird [00:26:13]:
Right. How I am.
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:15]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:26:17]:
And sometimes how I am is just fine. And sometimes we, instead of defending ourselves, you know, we take time on our own to think about that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:29]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:26:31]:
Is that who I want to be?
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:33]:
Yes. I mean, what I was thinking was, is it even a thoughtful response? Right. If someone asks me something and I really take the time to answer it, to be thoughtful, to be curious with myself, you know, what is that about for me? I don't know. It's interesting, I guess. There's a part of me that's like, I don't want to live in the desert. I want to live in the forest, by water, in the mountains. And that is what it is. I mean, I don't know that anybody's going to talk me into wanting to live in the desert, but, you know, I think about, you know, parenting and that conversation, you know, that Luke and I had last week, you know, where he was really upset with me for rescuing, you know, you and him.
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:55]:
Yeah. Which was. It was rescuing. Not rescuing as in the good rescuing like we've talked about, but the codependent, you know, like, I need to manage this relationship because as what he said to me is, you don't trust the health of mine in Walker's relationship. And I was like, ooh, yeah. And I could have said, it is what it is. I'm going to do it anyway. Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:28:26]:
I'm going to stay. Not trusting, essentially, is what the response would have meant as opposed to, what is that about for me? Why do I feel the need? What am I afraid of? And then the response being, you're right, not helpful. Thank you for teaching me. And I'll work on that, because that's mine.
Walker Bird [00:29:03]:
Very different responses, very different uses of a powerful phrase. You know, I think there's a lot of phrases that we use loosely.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:14]:
What else is coming to mind?
Walker Bird [00:29:16]:
Oh, I. Not nothing. But I just. I know that it's true. Just age old phrases that come out that if you toss the ball in the air and you're spinning it around. Looking at all the aspects like we are in our conversation, all of a sudden you realize, wow, that's powerful stuff and I need to use it appropriately. Yeah, yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:40]:
I just don't think we're very thoughtful or intentional about our conversations. I think it's so much of it's just reactive, why we're here. Right.
Walker Bird [00:29:57]:
To help ourselves learn and to help our listeners.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:01]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Walker Bird [00:30:03]:
Just think.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:04]:
Yeah, slow down. What is that really about for me? What do I really want? Because, you know, that's something I'll say. What do I really want? Yeah, what do you really want? What do you really need right now? Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:30:19]:
Heartfelt way again, that's another phrase, right?
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:24]:
Oh, sure, yeah.
Walker Bird [00:30:26]:
What do you really want versus what do you really want?
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:31]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you want from me?
Walker Bird [00:30:37]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:39]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:30:40]:
Relationship killer, right? No, there's like, one of the topics that I've thrown out for us to either talk about or write a blog on is relationship killer.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:51]:
Yeah, yeah.
Walker Bird [00:30:52]:
Phrases that we use that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:56]:
Yeah, what do you want from me? Is very different than what do you really want right now? Not the same words. I mean, the same words, right, but not the same energy behind them at all. I mean, when I ask that, you know, what do you really want right now? I mean, it's really curious. Like, I really do want to know, you know, what's happening. When I ask myself that, what do I really want right now? What do I really want right now? I'm being genuinely curious with myself. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:31:29]:
It's a really good question to ask ourselves, isn't it? A lot of times just we don't think about it and we don't know. We're just going through life. Who, me included?
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:49]:
Yeah. Let's practice. I mean, I just keep it practicing. I mean, to me, again, always an experiment. Always practicing. You know, I don't always do it well. I mean, it's like when Luke and I were having that conversation, you know, he was telling me, you know, you are not doing this very well right now. And I'm like, I am trying.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:14]:
I am so tired. It's 1:00 in the morning. I'm really trying. I'm trying, I'm trying. Yeah. And what he needed from me, he couldn't tell me. I mean, he was able to talk about it the next day, but in that moment, he couldn't. He was just in distress and struggling and feeling abandoned emotionally by me because I could not connect with the amount of emotional Dysregulation he was experiencing.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:55]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:32:57]:
Glad you're not perfect. Oh, I'm glad you're human. You know what I'm saying? I just. When we've talked about this in prior podcasts, which is we can express a lot of wisdom. It doesn't mean we. You and I always follow it or have. Sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:33:19]:
Or. Yeah. Or have it. I mean, like, I'm sitting there. I mean, I was trying so hard. I mean, literally for like an hour and a half, and I just was like, I cannot pull this up. I cannot. Like, it was not coming.
Theresa Hubbard [00:33:31]:
It wasn't coming. And then I just said, I'm so sorry, you know, because I was. I was tired and I was, you know, defending myself kindly, you know, I was doing it very gently, you know, but it wasn't helpful. I couldn't see clearly or think clearly, you know, in that moment to really value the amount of pain he was experiencing. Yeah. Which is hard.
Walker Bird [00:34:19]:
Relationship is hard.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:21]:
Yeah. All the people I want to do it the most with all the time. Right. You and the kids. Yeah. And it just doesn't always happen, you know, for me, it's really that, you know, the conversation ended, you know. Well, you know, as we were, you know, working through the. The emotion part of it, and even though I couldn't, you know, couldn't get it all, you know, that night, I was able to start hearing his, you know, pain and just be, you know, with him differently.
Theresa Hubbard [00:35:03]:
I think my energy was really calm at first, but it was probably protected and, you know, had my own shame going on even. And it was because I knew before I even sent the text to him that it was rescuing, but I felt like, well, I have to do it anyway. That's my responsibility, you know, and it wasn't. So I'm sure I was more protected at the beginning. Knowing which I did tell him I knew I shouldn't ascend it. I mean, when he very first said it, it's like, why did you. Because I was tired and I wasn't thinking clearly. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:35:54]:
But I also don't want, you know, my kids, as much effort as I put into having healthy relationship with them. I don't want them to think I'll always do it well. I don't want them to think that I do it perfectly. I want them to know they can, you know, lose their too. I want them to know that they can be human regardless of the skills I've learned and have taught them, you know, it's just not the way life is and so not helpful. And that's something that Luke and I will have more conversation about. You know, his reaction, you know, for me, you know, I did say a little bit about it, but it's just like, I don't expect you to be perfect. I don't expect you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:36]:
I don't. I don't have that expectation. But I do think the amount of effort I put into doing it well can lead them to believe maybe I do, even though I don't, because I wasn't triggered. I wasn't upset about what happened, you know, before. I was just tired and rescuing, but I wasn't upset. So. Yeah, we're just so complex. We are.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:18]:
Anything else that comes to mind about it, babe?
Walker Bird [00:37:22]:
No. I think it's been a really good conversation and helpful to. To be intentional about what tools we use, how we use them. But ultimately, for me, it's about examining our lives. It's great to be in the moment and. And just experience sometimes, just like traveling, you know, I always say some of the best adventures are when we deviate from the itinerary and just go down that side road or Absolutely. Street, whatever it is, because we don't have a preconceived notion of how it's supposed to go. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:58]:
Yeah, agreed.
Walker Bird [00:38:00]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:00]:
Stepping into the unknown is while. While it is, I think, often fearful is really like, wow. I mean, we have just seen some of the most amazing things when we just were like, turn down that road.
Walker Bird [00:38:13]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:14]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:38:15]:
Remember the cliff dwellings we found outside, like, north of Sedona, out of nowhere? We're just, hey, let's drive in the country. Because, you know, I like to do that. And all of a sudden we're like, what's that?
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:26]:
And there's, like, two rangers there and maybe like, six people.
Walker Bird [00:38:30]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:31]:
They hardly get any visitors. Right. Because they're out in the middle of nowhere, and we would never. Would never even have known to look for it. We just came upon it. Yeah. And it was amazing.
Walker Bird [00:38:46]:
So, you know, I don't. I don't want to be in the moment analyzing all the time.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:54]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:38:54]:
Sometimes I do just want to experience. But I also believe it's really important for us to step back from time to time or frequently and examine the things that we're talking about. What do I really want? What do I want? Why do I behave the way I behave? And why did I use that phrase? Is it productively, or was it a, you know, a use that just saved up troubles for later, you know?
Theresa Hubbard [00:39:30]:
Yeah. Deflection, avoidance, whatever. Yeah. Dismisses.
Walker Bird [00:39:33]:
It builds up Oh, a great example. It builds up until you're sick inside your body. And you know, it was really important. I thought a really thoughtful piece for you when you said listen, it's. Of course they did. As a way to remind my body know to get in touch with my body. Yeah, That's a critical piece that I need to keep working on.
Theresa Hubbard [00:40:00]:
Our body is so important. I really do wish it was something that we taught, more focused on, more. I know we're working on it. I mean, we're trying to make it more common language. I mean, not just us. I mean, you know, there are more people than us talking about what is your. What you're knowing, what do you feel in your body? You know, how do you value that? But that is part of what all of this is about. What is your body telling you how to value it accurately? Learning to trust yourself.
Walker Bird [00:40:41]:
And learning the interaction between the brain mind and the body mind. Because dismissive just ignores. And it builds up in the body. The issues in the tissues. Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:40:59]:
Well, you know, it's so funny because there's different phrases around that. The issues in the tissues. Yes. Your body holding the body keeps a score. Or. Oh, gosh, there's another book. I can't think of the name of it right now. The Gabor Mate book.
Theresa Hubbard [00:41:21]:
Yeah, it's not coming to me, but we'll put it in the, in the notes. And then there's the tissue issue, which is a different. Which is when someone's in distress, instead of just letting them cry and snot all over themselves, we interrupt their process by handing them Kleenex rescuing. Yeah, yeah, we can't. We may not even have that intention, but we often are interrupting someone's process. Yeah. People's deep emotional pain can cause us a lot of distress too. You know, we can bring up our own feelings of helplessness.
Theresa Hubbard [00:41:58]:
And I don't know what to do with that.
Walker Bird [00:42:02]:
And so, like, when I hear babies crying, it's like.
Theresa Hubbard [00:42:07]:
Yeah, distress.
Walker Bird [00:42:09]:
So that issue is still in my tissue. Well, I recognize that. So I'm working on it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:42:17]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:42:17]:
I, I what I use it, the terms or the phrases dismissively. Without the additional pieces, then it can be storing up. Yeah, and I interrupted you. Sorry, go ahead.
Theresa Hubbard [00:42:35]:
Oh, I was just gonna say I don't have any doubt that whatever pieces are left will get worked on when we have grandchildren. Yeah. What does that do to your body when I say that?
Walker Bird [00:42:52]:
Fear.
Theresa Hubbard [00:42:54]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:42:58]:
I mean, I was a great caregiver. I just, you know, I would respond to Libby crying in the night. Etc. But it still caused me great distress.
Theresa Hubbard [00:43:05]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:43:07]:
But in that when. I guess when I have the ability to comfort, it's not. It's not nearly. I mean initially the reaction is distress but then when I'm providing love and comfort, then I. I'm not in distress. Helping, you know, soothe.
Theresa Hubbard [00:43:32]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:43:33]:
When it is not something that, you know, somebody else's child, like on an airplane. Because that causes you distress, whatever it is. And it's so distressing to me. Yeah. I used to get angry. I don't get angry anymore. Said that all of a sudden just.
Theresa Hubbard [00:43:52]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:43:53]:
Distress.
Theresa Hubbard [00:43:57]:
Our body holds a lot.
Walker Bird [00:43:59]:
It does.
Theresa Hubbard [00:44:00]:
Yeah. Thanks.
Walker Bird [00:44:03]:
It is what it is.
Theresa Hubbard [00:44:04]:
It is.
Walker Bird [00:44:05]:
But what am I going to choose to do about it?
Theresa Hubbard [00:44:09]:
Yeah. Yeah. Because we can. Yeah, we can. It's hard work. Absolutely worth it. Absolutely.
Walker Bird [00:44:19]:
Love you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:44:20]:
I love you too, babe.
Walker Bird [00:44:22]:
Conversations.
Theresa Hubbard [00:44:23]:
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth and we strive to be more compassionate every day.