The Power of Vulnerability in Personal and Professional Life
Theresa Hubbard and Walker Bird
Walker Bird and Theresa Hubbard are joined by Mary Messner to discuss her journey of trusting her intuition during a major life transition. Mary opens up about her decision to leave a demanding executive role to become a stay-at-home mom—a choice that challenged her sense of identity and forced her to confront societal expectations and self-doubt.
She reflects on how this decision strengthened her trust in herself and her inner knowing, which continues to guide her in other areas of life. Mary also shares her current work as a keynote speaker, where she inspires others with her "Dream, Feel, Create" framework for workplace creativity.
This episode offers honest reflections on vulnerability, authenticity, and the value of having trusted people to support you through life’s big decisions.
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Episode Transcript
Walker Bird [00:00:00]:
We are so excited about sharing with you our new retreat: Becoming Unshakeable: From Self-Doubt to Daring.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:08]:
Yeah, we love doing retreats. It's a lot of fun. We really enjoy that group in person process. Everything that Walker and I create is something that we do with a lot of intention. Every retreat we do is a new retreat. We don't repeat retreats. And so it's always an adventure for us in creating the next one based off where he and I are in our own personal growth journey.
Walker Bird [00:00:36]:
Yeah. We look forward to holding space for you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:38]:
Yeah. We hope you'll consider joining us.
Walker Bird [00:00:45]:
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life. Each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:13]:
Well, hello, Mary. Hi. How are you? Good.
Walker Bird [00:01:17]:
We're good.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:18]:
Yeah. Thank you for joining us today.
Mary Messner [00:01:20]:
Absolutely. Thanks for having me. I appreciate the, the invite and the opportunity to chat.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:26]:
Yeah. Well, it was really nice meeting you last year when we did. And so, like I had said in my email, you had been on my mind as someone I knew that we would enjoy having this conversation with. So thank you for taking the time.
Mary Messner [00:01:39]:
I appreciate that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:41]:
Yeah, it's good to be here. Oh, thank you. Okay, so we like to jump right in, Mary. So when you think about your knowing at this point in your life, what does it feel like for you?
Mary Messner [00:02:00]:
I've been thinking about this question a lot.
Theresa Hubbard [00:02:02]:
Okay.
Mary Messner [00:02:04]:
I know when, when you first invited me to be on the podcast, I remember thinking, I'm. I'm not your ideal guest.
Theresa Hubbard [00:02:13]:
Guessed.
Mary Messner [00:02:14]:
I don't, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about a question like that. But, but then you said, no, no, we. We want you there for a reason. So now you gave me a reason to. To continue thinking about all of this. And, and it's been interesting as I've been, you know, trying to process all the different ways, like how I would define the word knowing and how I would recognize that experience or that feeling in me.
Theresa Hubbard [00:02:41]:
Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:02:44]:
The answer felt like it wasn't obvious. And also at the same time, it does feel like it's obvious. And I hope I'm making some sense here, at least. Maybe I will in a few minutes. What I mean by all of that is that I think for a long time, as I figured out who I was professionally and personally and just navigated the normal transitions we have through life, from college to working to marriage, to having kids. There was this. I'll use the word pressure, even though that may not be the right word. But.
Mary Messner [00:03:22]:
But there's all this external noise coming at us that. That says, here's how you should or should not show up.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:29]:
Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:03:30]:
And I have. I have found it oftentimes easy to not listen to the noise. And I. And I'll say transparently that I feel very lucky to be able to tune that out and to be able to come back to that inner peace. The thing that I said was hard to identify. Well, I. I think I do have a. I've been able to navigate the world understanding what feels right for me in each moment and making decisions for me.
Mary Messner [00:04:00]:
And I'm not saying 100% of the time, there are many times see people around you and you compare yourself and all of that. But I can recognize the moments that I'm doing it and get back to what I think is truly important. The part that I think has been more pivotal on that experience is recognizing when I am changing as a person, when I'm finding new identities from, you know, who I was as a individual, career focused woman to who I am as a mom.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:35]:
Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:04:36]:
That has probably been the harder journey to stay consistent with my knowing. It's less about the external voices and it's my own. My own internal voice to be able to give myself permission to settle in to who I. Who I become in each new phase of life. I hope that made sense. That was kind of winding, but yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:00]:
And absolutely. What are you thinking? As she shares?
Walker Bird [00:05:03]:
That I'm wondering how you check in, you know, to. To. What is it that you feel or. Or think, you know, when you know you're in that space. Yeah. This is the right way to go.
Mary Messner [00:05:17]:
I think a big part of it is just being very. Seeking to understand why I'm feeling the way that I'm feeling. And I. And I'll give you a really good example when I. So I. I very focused on a career early on and it gave me a lot of energy. I love to work and I loved accomplishing things and I love challenging myself to try new things.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:44]:
Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:05:45]:
And then I became a mom and I was like, what in the. What in the heck am I doing? I. I don't know what's important anymore. But I did. I mean, I knew what was now important was my kiddos. But that was such a huge departure from what had consumed so much of my life. This professional mental accomplishment of Doing hard things and pushing myself. And then I became a mom.
Mary Messner [00:06:14]:
And suddenly it was not about me. It was about making sure that she had everything that she needed. But I hung on to that previous self for a really long time. Yeah, I'll say six months. It wasn't actually that long, but six months in the moment felt like an eternity. And I ended up quitting my job to stay home. And my company offered me an opportunity to stay part time, which was great. But in that moment, the reason that I didn't quit when I was on maternity leave, when I first got that itch to say, your priorities have shifted.
Mary Messner [00:06:50]:
You need to spend your time somewhere else.
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:52]:
Mm.
Mary Messner [00:06:53]:
It was because I was really trying to hold on to who I was. And so, Walker, when you say, what is. What is that kind of experience for you? The whole thing that changed. That changed that moment. There. There are probably two. Two pieces. The first one was, I Remember Mother's Day 2015.
Mary Messner [00:07:15]:
Sunday is Mother's Day. I did not sleep that night because the whole time I was wrestling with this idea of I am not spending my time in the place that I really want to. The only reason. The reason why I keep going back into who I was before was because it was familiar and I understood it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:07:37]:
Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:07:39]:
So if I say, why did I do it? It was because I understood it. I didn't understand this new feeling that I had. And so I was trying to kind of run away from it, but I laid in bed all week trying to dissect why I was feeling the way I was feeling. And I got up and I went to work the. The next day, and there was a meeting that all of us would sit in together, a whole team of executives, and we were supposed to make, you know, the big decisions for the organization. And I remember looking around this group and thinking, I'm choosing to be here versus there with my daughter. And I was physically saying there because she was at the daycare at work, you know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:22]:
Oh, sure, sure.
Mary Messner [00:08:23]:
And so it was a little bit of this culmination of spending time understanding why I was feeling the way I was feeling. And then there was a very pivotal moment when it all came together, and I was like, what the heck?
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:35]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:08:39]:
That's a big inflection point, isn't it?
Mary Messner [00:08:44]:
Eight hours of a sleepless night to get there. But, I mean, it was a long time coming, but. But it all came to a head right then.
Walker Bird [00:08:50]:
Sure. We talk a lot about, you know, checking in with your body as a guidance system, in addition to just going through the mental exercise. And I'm wondering if there was a component of that that you can recall as you, as you were thinking back on it, you know, and it's a pretty striking scene. You in the big, in the boardroom, you know, that's a huge kind of pressure cooker environment. So anyway, I didn't know if that occurred to you or if you think about it, if there was some response from the body.
Mary Messner [00:09:26]:
You know, I haven't thought about it in that way. I will say, you know, physically, I would drop my daughter off at daycare and I would cry every morning. I mean, it was, there's feelings there as well, obviously, but it was, it was not something I could control. There were, there were tears every day for months, and everybody said it would get easier. But I do think that there was probably an element of anxiousness that probably lived there constantly. As I was saying, as I was telling myself I probably wasn't making the right decision of how I was spending my time, that probably did present itself as a bit of nervous anxiousness, if I reflect on it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:10:12]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:10:13]:
And when you finally said the words, what happened then?
Mary Messner [00:10:19]:
That was amazing. I, I, so here, here was what was really interesting is, is giving myself that permission. So I said, I remember walking back to my office and talking to a co worker of mine. We sat down together and I said, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna, I'm gonna quit my job. And she said, good for you. I want to quit, too. And then I called my husband.
Mary Messner [00:10:44]:
All right. Like, just fine. His exact words were, can I curse?
Theresa Hubbard [00:10:51]:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:10:54]:
His exact words were, shit or get off the pot already. And so his point was like, you've been, you've known that this needed to happen, and you've just been delaying the inevitable. So just, I mean, we've been talking about this for so long. And then, you know, the third thing that happened, when I went in and told my boss this, he immediately said, you know, I would love to keep you here full time or keep you here part time. I'd create a position for you if I could. But also, I want you to know that my family went through this. For one of the parents, we made the decision for one of us to stay home. And it was the best decision we ever made for our family.
Mary Messner [00:11:31]:
And I, I'm not trying to tell people, go stay home with your kids by any means. That's a, it's, it's obviously a personal decision. But think what was so interesting is when I did fully embrace that, it Was like all these other doors opened up. I now gave someone else permission the same to do the same thing. I demonstrated it, demonstrated the trust that my husband had in me to make the decision, patience that he had in me to allow myself to get there. It showed me the example in my boss of him having gone through a similar experience and how it turned out for their family. So, you know, embracing it wholly. That's not just an individual journey, if you will.
Mary Messner [00:12:11]:
Once I think you're honest with that, it starts creating connections that you didn't even know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:12:17]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Walker Bird [00:12:20]:
It's fascinating to me how we create this, the resistance, you know, it's almost like, I don't know, prison comes to mind where we're, you know, we put a fence around our. Ourselves, you know, what we know we need, and just there's this suffering associated with that. I mean, my heart just hurts thinking of you. You know, a professional executive dropping your daughter off and just not being able to control the tears that were coming. And your body, your soul is saying, hey, hello.
Mary Messner [00:12:59]:
What's so interesting about that, too, is the, you know, I said earlier that I always felt like I had the ability to shut out the outside world and make decisions that are right for me in that moment. I mean, the reality is that part of the reason I held on to who I was before for so long was not just because I was comfortable being, you know, this professional go getter, but I was a woman who had broken barriers very quickly, and that was. That was something to celebrate. That was a societal thing to say as a young woman and what you've already accomplished professionally, you are setting an example for other women. You're setting an example for your daughter.
Theresa Hubbard [00:13:46]:
Right.
Mary Messner [00:13:46]:
And so here's. Yes, I have this internal voice, but that was a moment I absolutely let external voices come in and challenge this decision I was struggling with.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:01]:
Yeah. And how unaware that we often are that there are external voices that are carving our path for us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's so great, Mary.
Mary Messner [00:14:16]:
So that's the inner knowing. That's the. I kept coming back when I was challenging myself to really think about this.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:22]:
Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:14:23]:
I kept coming back to that moment and just that the whole thing came down to us always growing and shifting who we are as humans and how you kind of navigate that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:41]:
Right. So that was almost 10 years ago. So when you think about the process for you since then, what's that been like and how have you best supported yourself since you've made that choice?
Mary Messner [00:15:02]:
I think making that choice and embracing it wholly has made every other choice since then easier. I, you know, I did stay part time. I ended up going back to work full time when my, my oldest was, I think they were both two and four. So I have two, I have two of them now. They're 22 months apart. And, and so I went back full time because I was ready to challenge my brain and in kind of new, in different ways again. But I think I've continued to be able to say, to gauge what really is important in the moment. And that means, you know, I'm not the, the PTA mom because for me it, all it does is create anxiety and stress.
Mary Messner [00:15:58]:
But I will show up as often as I can and I will sometimes tell my kids yes and sometimes tell them no, I can't be there. And that's also okay. And so there's, I think making that, that big fundamentally life changing decision to lean into what really mattered to me. It's a guidepost now that I can say, am I making that decision not perfect about it by any means, but to be able to say, am I making that decision because of someone else, because of fomo, because of comparison, or am I making it because it's actually something that's important and it's easier, I will say it's easier now to tease those two things apart.
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:40]:
Sure. Oh, yeah. Mary, I think we often don't really know why we're doing what we're doing or just doing it. And it's something that my children for sure, I would say overall have had a lot of irritation around. But I think as they have gotten older, because they're now 17 to 29, which is, oh, at least I know why I'm doing what I'm doing. Whereas when they were younger it's like, why are you asking me that? You know, I would say because I want you to know why you're doing what you're doing. You know, it's okay. I may not agree and it may not work out and that's fine.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:20]:
I just want you to do it intentionally.
Mary Messner [00:17:23]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I have that conversation with my 10 year old all the time. Help me understand why, why you made that decision. It's usually, it's usually in, in the midst of some heated breakdown with her sister that just, that just occurred. But you're right, there is, you know, I, and, and she's, they're, they're 10 and 8 now and so they don't always know the answers to that, to the question ask them. But it does start planting seeds to start.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:52]:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I know. I agree. Their ability, it's. It's a skill for them now because it's been practiced. Right. As opposed to starting to ask ourselves that when we're in our 30s, 40s, or 50s, it's kind of like, I don't, I don't know. Yeah, yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:15]:
And then also what do you really want?
Mary Messner [00:18:18]:
Or someone else said or, you know, and you could start naming the reasons, but. But yeah, they're. They're usually the external reasons if you don't take time to think about it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:28]:
Right, right. So what was the process for you realizing that you were more clear than you thought you were about your knowing?
Mary Messner [00:18:43]:
It was, it was. I mean, still being more clear. It was still very hard to settle into it. I think I, I remember, you know, I think who I, Who I had been was such a part of my identity, you know, And I remember I went and got a massage. I love to tell stories. They. They help me connect.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:16]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:19:17]:
I'm a speaker and so I. Stories are how I try to express things. So you'll go on my little storytelling journey here today. I went and got a massage. Was a gift or something. Massage Envy. And you write on the form that you fill out what you do, you write down your profession. And I wrote down.
Mary Messner [00:19:41]:
The first time I'd written it, I wrote, S A H M for stay at home mom. Well, that feels interesting to write down. And I handed the clipboard back in with this piece of paper on it. And the person working the front desk said, oh, you're a stay at home mom. That's amazing. I was like that. I, I didn't. It's not why I did it.
Mary Messner [00:20:08]:
I didn't do it to get. I didn't do it to get these ex. Like, a, didn't feel sincere and B, it was back to like, I did this for me, not for anybody else's opinion of it, but yet someone El. Else was immediately expressing an opinion. And that. So that was something that. I mean, again, I, I knew why I did it. I'd taken the time, I processed it, I made the decision I was going down the path.
Mary Messner [00:20:33]:
But it still didn't mean that every single step was always easy. At the end of the day, I can feel really good about the decision, but there's always those little curveballs that get thrown in where you got to kind of, kind of reset. And that was one of those examples of. I don't care what the person at Massage Envy thought about my career, but they, they hit a Nerve.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:55]:
Sure. Yeah. A little bit of insecurity or uncertainty. Yeah, yeah. And we can use those to help us get more clear. You know, I always say provides us an opportunity for contrast. Right. Let me.
Mary Messner [00:21:09]:
Yes.
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:10]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did make this choice. It is what I want.
Mary Messner [00:21:14]:
It is what I wanted. Yeah. Even when the question comes up, I can come back and re anchor myself in the fact that I made the decision that, that I wanted to. You know, I mentioned I'm a speaker and I, you know, I'm, I have a keynote that I'm doing tomorrow and I'm really nervous today. And you know, Walker, you were talking about how does it kind of feel in your body when you're doing that, that big thing. I know when I get up on a stage and I speak, it is the most energy selfishly receiving moment. I, I, the energy that I feel in me is, I mean, it's a high like no other runner is high. Same kind of a thing.
Mary Messner [00:22:00]:
I just really love it. And also every day before I do it, I'll feel fine tomorrow. Today, it's the day before I miss little puddle of nerves and I don't want to screw it up. And then I go, why do I even put myself through this? Is the energy really worth it to feel as nervous as I feel right now? And then I'll wake up tomorrow morning going, yes, today is. And so it's fascinating. You know, you think about, like, I could lean into that and say, oh, my body's telling me that I shouldn't be do this.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:33]:
And I actually think it's my body.
Mary Messner [00:22:34]:
Telling me I care that I want to do this badly enough.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:40]:
Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:22:41]:
That I'm a little anxious.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:43]:
Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:22:44]:
About it. Oh, I wouldn't have always said that I, that I could have named that of like, this is normal one day before I knew my be nervous. And I actually get to embrace it because it means that, that this is something that's really important to me. And so I don't know. Those feelings are weird. I'm living in this moment.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:04]:
I love it, Mary. I love your transparency. And it makes so much sense to me. I mean, I have a, I want to do it well in everything that I step into. And for me, that time ahead of time is kind of, I mean, this is how I imagine it. It's like I'm just trying to get all of my energy in my body aligned so, so that we're all going in the same direction. Right. Because, you know, it's not like that insecurity can't come in and that insecurity can't come in.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:36]:
And, you know, they're pulling, like, from different parts. And so I do feel like I'm just, like, telling my body, regulating my energy. You got this. Yeah. You got this, this. You love this. You are passionate about this. You know this.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:52]:
Yeah, yeah.
Mary Messner [00:23:54]:
And it's. And I think there's a consistency now that I know. I know the physical, the feelings I will have.
Theresa Hubbard [00:24:01]:
Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:24:02]:
As I get ready for it. I know what happens the day before. And I. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:24:09]:
Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:24:09]:
That's pretty wild.
Theresa Hubbard [00:24:11]:
Yeah, that's. It's great.
Walker Bird [00:24:13]:
Yeah. No, it's a really discerning point, too. I think it's important and in thinking about some of the things that I've shared in the podcast, you know, because I'm a trial lawyer, so we. I have to stand up in front of a bunch of strangers and convince them of something or at least lead them, you know, to the. To a conclusion that hopefully matches mine. But you have to discern between the body's response, whether it's a fear response, you know, is there emotion around it, etc. And I'll come in and out of that, you know, depending on what's happening while a trial is going on. And I go through a process of grounding.
Walker Bird [00:24:54]:
I mean, the last time there was sheer panic when a witness was destroying my case and I had to ground myself in the midst of it because what my body wanted to do was run out of the room, literally. And luckily, through a lot of work, I was able to, you know, to hold on to that, you know, and just take a deep breath, feel my feet on the ground, get grounded back in, so that the feedback from the body was actually, you know, was actual feedback telling me, we're going to make it through this versus run like hell now.
Mary Messner [00:25:32]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:25:32]:
Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:25:33]:
And it's funny because I think you do. You have to study those feelings. I mean, there's a lot of people that would say, I won't ever get up and speak. Speak. Whether you're a trial lawyer, a keynote speaker, or a, I don't know, leading a meeting at a. At a company in front of three people, they won't get up and speak because the nerves stopped them. And I think. I think there's an opportunity to try and study why those nerves exist.
Mary Messner [00:25:58]:
Why, you know, is it because you genuinely don't want. Like, that is just not something you want to do? You don't want anybody looking at you? Or is it because you care about it and so you want to do A good job and that creates an internal pressure in you. And you know, my 10 year old has, has developed a. I mean, maybe it's a fear, I don't know, that the idea of competing in sports where people are watching her and judging her and it's like completely stops her from wanting to do anything. And so I'm going through this process with her of like, help me, like, I really want to understand what that feels like and why do you, you know, and again, she's 10. She doesn't, she doesn't understand it yet. But I'm hoping.
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:48]:
Right, right, right.
Mary Messner [00:26:50]:
Hoping we can figure it out.
Walker Bird [00:26:52]:
Yeah. What a nice process. Lucky for her.
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:54]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:26:55]:
You know, to have a mom with insight to go down that path. Help her start learning how to check in.
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:01]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I believe she'll get there. Yeah. You know, it's, it's interesting, Mary, because when you were talking what I was thinking, I think we've been through this place in our culture for sure. I don't know, over the last 80, 100 years. When I look at like my parents and their awareness of their body experience typically is only around physical health as opposed to how does this impact me emotionally or mentally. And then I think, you know, there's, at some point we started paying a little bit more attention to the body, but then really not knowing how to interpret the information that it's giving. And so it makes me think about what you were sharing earlier.
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:50]:
Like I could take this feeling and I could use it to tell myself this means I shouldn't be doing this as opposed to spending the time to get clear. What is my body really telling me? It might feel like this thing that feels like fear or it feels like, yeah, fear and regret or this isn't my path or I'm not being, you know, authentic to myself. But I don't know that we spend the time to really get clear. So for you, how do you think you best support, I don't know, your continued learning about what's going on inside of you and what your body's telling you? I mean, are there certain classes you've taken or books you've read or people that you've worked with who you feel like, you know, were really important part of your journey?
Mary Messner [00:28:52]:
Gosh, yes, there's lots. There's several different. There's a couple different things that I'll throw out there. So you mentioned parents. You know, my dad is very in touch with his. The feelings that he's experiencing in response to different things. He's went Through a couple rounds of cancer and cancer treatments. And the whole time he was so intentional about what he was bringing forward and the positive, I mean, this guy is like, he goes on vacation and never rains.
Mary Messner [00:29:25]:
Like he just, things just work out for him and he's health wise, he's doing great. And, and he attributes so much of that, of just his worldview that he is always intentional on seeing the positive outcome of what could be of any given situation.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:43]:
Right.
Mary Messner [00:29:43]:
You know, he's out there just manifesting all this stuff like sunshine and rainbows and so, you know, as role model, he, he, he. And, and I think he's always been that way. I don't think as a child I realized it. We talk a lot more openly now.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:59]:
Sure.
Mary Messner [00:29:59]:
So that has been a huge, it's been a huge. Just from a role model standpoint.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:05]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:30:07]:
The other thing that I will say is I, I think now that I am aware, you know, I think, I think previously, and it wasn't necessarily just the, the transitioning career that gave me this insight to being aware. It's certainly a practice and I think experiences, studying experiences and focusing on how I feel about them. I have spoken to certain audiences and I will walk off that stage and say, oh my gosh, I am buzzing right now. That felt so good. And I will walk off stage with other audiences and I will say that I did terribly. That was awful. I feel awful. And I have a good, a good friend of mine who I will call up and I'll dissect all of that with her and she'll say, well, tell me about this, tell me about how the audience responded here.
Mary Messner [00:31:00]:
Tell me about that. And sometimes it'll be, I didn't do a good job and you know, we live and learn. And other times it will say, it'll be very clear that the people I spoke in front of, we just weren't each other's people. And so the energy levels didn't match. And I didn't get anything from speaking to that group. Not that I did anything wrong. It just, I didn't get, I didn't get what I needed. I didn't give them what they needed.
Mary Messner [00:31:28]:
And, and that's okay. Or sometimes it's a topic that they asked me to speak on and that topic doesn't give me any energy. And so to have someone that I feel like I can study that with and be really honest and say, I feel awful, I think I suck.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:46]:
Quit.
Mary Messner [00:31:46]:
My job, you know, to, to help me dissect it, that, that I think has Been really important. So, you know, certainly my dad. But then also having people that I'm comfortable being very vulnerable with and talking about failure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:03]:
Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:32:04]:
Or fear of failure or questioning failure. That's important.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:09]:
Yeah. Yeah. Such a great point, Mary.
Walker Bird [00:32:14]:
And hard to do.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:15]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:32:16]:
Even if we're not working with somebody else, that we're vulnerable. To be vulnerable with ourselves in evaluating when things don't go so well or flat on your face. It's. It's really important because the best learning comes.
Mary Messner [00:32:31]:
Well, and I think it's also. It, you know, it's a relationship builder.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:35]:
Absolutely.
Mary Messner [00:32:36]:
I. I like to. I like to know. I like to be in charge. I like to know what I'm doing. I like to be clear. And so to be able to open up those conversations and to say to somebody, okay, I don't actually don't think I know what I'm doing, and I don't think I'm in control in this moment and letting somebody else kind of take the wheel, that, for me, is very uncomfortable. But, you know, and it's not something that I do all of the time, but the moment that I do when I.
Mary Messner [00:33:10]:
When I do that with my husband and I say, okay, I'm. I need some help with this, I'm really stuck. I mean, our relationship in that moment just exponentially.
Theresa Hubbard [00:33:22]:
Oh, yeah.
Mary Messner [00:33:23]:
Gets better. It's. And that's a reminder to be vulnerable more often, too.
Theresa Hubbard [00:33:29]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:33:30]:
It's. Yeah, it's fascinating because I say all the time that vulnerability, for me as a trial lawyer is my secret power.
Theresa Hubbard [00:33:37]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:33:39]:
Because it is. It creates connection. And you point, you know, just the observation of your relationship with your husband when you go there. And it's just. It's nice to see it from a broader context. So thanks. Yeah. Cool.
Theresa Hubbard [00:33:55]:
Yeah. The trust that you've built there. Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:33:59]:
Yeah. And I think there's another, you know, that I think I. There's, you know, the vulnerability can have a little bit of a buzzword connotation to it that, you know, vulnerable and. And authenticity is another word that I think I am very big on showing up authentically. But vulnerability, that's a whole nother layer of. Right. Authenticity that I. I don't reserve for everyone.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:25]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:34:27]:
But I. Allowing that space with the people that I do truly trust, who I know that when they're going to give me the hard feedback or tell me the hard thing, they're doing it solely with the goal of supporting me in that process. That's. Those are those moments where it's. Where it's pretty special.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:45]:
Yeah, yeah. Yes, it is.
Walker Bird [00:34:48]:
Before we are finished, because I know you've got a meeting you need to get to, but tell us a little bit about your speaking. You know, what you're doing now. If you want to share.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:59]:
Everybody.
Mary Messner [00:35:00]:
Yeah. So I, I am a keynote speaker. I speak on creativity in the workplace. And for me, there's a lot of similarities in what we're talking about here. When I think about creativity, it's. This isn't like the arts and crafts kind of creativity, although that's certainly a part of it. It's just simply bringing a willingness to think differently into place, to try new ideas, to consider new possibilities. And I have a framework that I speak about and I call it Dream, Feel, Create.
Mary Messner [00:35:35]:
And you know, when we're faced with a challenge or a problem we're trying to solve at work or even some new idea, just our natural instinct is to like, jump in and say, all right, I'm going to, I'm going to go. I'm going to come up with the thing. And what I do is say, first you need to start with your dream for the thing. So limitations aside, what, gosh, if you could really go after it, what would that look like? What would be the big, huge dream? And then the second piece is. All right. If you achieve that dream. Oh, that feel like. And sometimes that makes you go wrong dream.
Mary Messner [00:36:19]:
If I, if I actually that. That business idea. That sounds so cool of me, starting my own business. And I'm going to go out there and get my llc. Okay, well, back up. Let's go. Let's go to the dream. What's the dream for the business? Oh, to own a multimillion dollar business.
Mary Messner [00:36:33]:
Okay, what would that feel like?
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:36]:
Right.
Mary Messner [00:36:39]:
Actually wouldn't feel so good. I feel that feels like busy. So it's walking through that process. So starting with a dream, focusing on the feeling, and then you go in, create. And that's to me, that it's what I've done professionally, like the journey that I've always followed. I study companies that are really successful and unique and unexpected, expected. And they are going down that same path as well. So.
Mary Messner [00:37:04]:
Yeah, Walker, to answer your question, when I, when I speak to audiences, whether it's a conference or, you know, an individual company, that is the message that I am bringing forward.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:16]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:37:17]:
Nice. I like the framework.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:19]:
Yeah, it is. It's really nice. Yeah. And similar. Right. To what we're doing, just in a different way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So people can find you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:27]:
What, what would be the. Your preferred ways of people finding you LinkedIn. Okay.
Mary Messner [00:37:33]:
I mean, I am on Instagram, Facebook. I don't do much on Facebook. Instagram is a whole other world that I have technology that I just have never taken the time to learn. I'm there. You can find me on Instagram. I'm there. As the Mary Messner. I went bold with my.
Mary Messner [00:37:50]:
With my handle.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:51]:
Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:37:53]:
LinkedIn, I think, is just a really beautiful space to. To put thought out there in a supportive environment. And so that's. That's my spot.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:02]:
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Mary. It was great. I knew it would be. And I look forward to further conversations in whatever context that might be. But it was really nice spending this time with you.
Walker Bird [00:38:15]:
Thank you. So nice to meet you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:17]:
Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:38:18]:
Thank you very much.
Walker Bird [00:38:20]:
If you've been wishing for deeper trust and authenticity in your relationships, looking for better communication skills with your partner, we hope that you'll join us for our latest course, 10 essential skills to building Stronger and healthier Relationships.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:33]:
Yeah. Everything that Walker and I do is something that we put energy into creating it thoughtfully and intentionally. We're very curious about what might be most helpful for people in building healthier skills in relationship. We recognize it's something that we all need to practice time and time again and know that we're not just talking about intimate partners in this course. We're talking about family, co workers, friends. We really want to walk through this process of building healthier relationship in all areas of our life, and we hope that you consider joining us. Enrollment opens February 1st. Launching March 20th.
Theresa Hubbard [00:39:20]:
First day of spring and the first day of our retreat. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:39:24]:
Yeah, we'll see you there.
Theresa Hubbard [00:39:26]:
Thank you. Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth, and we strive to be more compassionate every day.
We are so excited about sharing with you our new retreat: Becoming Unshakeable: From Self-Doubt to Daring.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:08]:
Yeah, we love doing retreats. It's a lot of fun. We really enjoy that group in person process. Everything that Walker and I create is something that we do with a lot of intention. Every retreat we do is a new retreat. We don't repeat retreats. And so it's always an adventure for us in creating the next one based off where he and I are in our own personal growth journey.
Walker Bird [00:00:36]:
Yeah. We look forward to holding space for you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:38]:
Yeah. We hope you'll consider joining us.
Walker Bird [00:00:45]:
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life. Each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:13]:
Well, hello, Mary. Hi. How are you? Good.
Walker Bird [00:01:17]:
We're good.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:18]:
Yeah. Thank you for joining us today.
Mary Messner [00:01:20]:
Absolutely. Thanks for having me. I appreciate the, the invite and the opportunity to chat.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:26]:
Yeah. Well, it was really nice meeting you last year when we did. And so, like I had said in my email, you had been on my mind as someone I knew that we would enjoy having this conversation with. So thank you for taking the time.
Mary Messner [00:01:39]:
I appreciate that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:41]:
Yeah, it's good to be here. Oh, thank you. Okay, so we like to jump right in, Mary. So when you think about your knowing at this point in your life, what does it feel like for you?
Mary Messner [00:02:00]:
I've been thinking about this question a lot.
Theresa Hubbard [00:02:02]:
Okay.
Mary Messner [00:02:04]:
I know when, when you first invited me to be on the podcast, I remember thinking, I'm. I'm not your ideal guest.
Theresa Hubbard [00:02:13]:
Guessed.
Mary Messner [00:02:14]:
I don't, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about a question like that. But, but then you said, no, no, we. We want you there for a reason. So now you gave me a reason to. To continue thinking about all of this. And, and it's been interesting as I've been, you know, trying to process all the different ways, like how I would define the word knowing and how I would recognize that experience or that feeling in me.
Theresa Hubbard [00:02:41]:
Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:02:44]:
The answer felt like it wasn't obvious. And also at the same time, it does feel like it's obvious. And I hope I'm making some sense here, at least. Maybe I will in a few minutes. What I mean by all of that is that I think for a long time, as I figured out who I was professionally and personally and just navigated the normal transitions we have through life, from college to working to marriage, to having kids. There was this. I'll use the word pressure, even though that may not be the right word. But.
Mary Messner [00:03:22]:
But there's all this external noise coming at us that. That says, here's how you should or should not show up.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:29]:
Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:03:30]:
And I have. I have found it oftentimes easy to not listen to the noise. And I. And I'll say transparently that I feel very lucky to be able to tune that out and to be able to come back to that inner peace. The thing that I said was hard to identify. Well, I. I think I do have a. I've been able to navigate the world understanding what feels right for me in each moment and making decisions for me.
Mary Messner [00:04:00]:
And I'm not saying 100% of the time, there are many times see people around you and you compare yourself and all of that. But I can recognize the moments that I'm doing it and get back to what I think is truly important. The part that I think has been more pivotal on that experience is recognizing when I am changing as a person, when I'm finding new identities from, you know, who I was as a individual, career focused woman to who I am as a mom.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:35]:
Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:04:36]:
That has probably been the harder journey to stay consistent with my knowing. It's less about the external voices and it's my own. My own internal voice to be able to give myself permission to settle in to who I. Who I become in each new phase of life. I hope that made sense. That was kind of winding, but yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:00]:
And absolutely. What are you thinking? As she shares?
Walker Bird [00:05:03]:
That I'm wondering how you check in, you know, to. To. What is it that you feel or. Or think, you know, when you know you're in that space. Yeah. This is the right way to go.
Mary Messner [00:05:17]:
I think a big part of it is just being very. Seeking to understand why I'm feeling the way that I'm feeling. And I. And I'll give you a really good example when I. So I. I very focused on a career early on and it gave me a lot of energy. I love to work and I loved accomplishing things and I love challenging myself to try new things.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:44]:
Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:05:45]:
And then I became a mom and I was like, what in the. What in the heck am I doing? I. I don't know what's important anymore. But I did. I mean, I knew what was now important was my kiddos. But that was such a huge departure from what had consumed so much of my life. This professional mental accomplishment of Doing hard things and pushing myself. And then I became a mom.
Mary Messner [00:06:14]:
And suddenly it was not about me. It was about making sure that she had everything that she needed. But I hung on to that previous self for a really long time. Yeah, I'll say six months. It wasn't actually that long, but six months in the moment felt like an eternity. And I ended up quitting my job to stay home. And my company offered me an opportunity to stay part time, which was great. But in that moment, the reason that I didn't quit when I was on maternity leave, when I first got that itch to say, your priorities have shifted.
Mary Messner [00:06:50]:
You need to spend your time somewhere else.
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:52]:
Mm.
Mary Messner [00:06:53]:
It was because I was really trying to hold on to who I was. And so, Walker, when you say, what is. What is that kind of experience for you? The whole thing that changed. That changed that moment. There. There are probably two. Two pieces. The first one was, I Remember Mother's Day 2015.
Mary Messner [00:07:15]:
Sunday is Mother's Day. I did not sleep that night because the whole time I was wrestling with this idea of I am not spending my time in the place that I really want to. The only reason. The reason why I keep going back into who I was before was because it was familiar and I understood it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:07:37]:
Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:07:39]:
So if I say, why did I do it? It was because I understood it. I didn't understand this new feeling that I had. And so I was trying to kind of run away from it, but I laid in bed all week trying to dissect why I was feeling the way I was feeling. And I got up and I went to work the. The next day, and there was a meeting that all of us would sit in together, a whole team of executives, and we were supposed to make, you know, the big decisions for the organization. And I remember looking around this group and thinking, I'm choosing to be here versus there with my daughter. And I was physically saying there because she was at the daycare at work, you know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:22]:
Oh, sure, sure.
Mary Messner [00:08:23]:
And so it was a little bit of this culmination of spending time understanding why I was feeling the way I was feeling. And then there was a very pivotal moment when it all came together, and I was like, what the heck?
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:35]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:08:39]:
That's a big inflection point, isn't it?
Mary Messner [00:08:44]:
Eight hours of a sleepless night to get there. But, I mean, it was a long time coming, but. But it all came to a head right then.
Walker Bird [00:08:50]:
Sure. We talk a lot about, you know, checking in with your body as a guidance system, in addition to just going through the mental exercise. And I'm wondering if there was a component of that that you can recall as you, as you were thinking back on it, you know, and it's a pretty striking scene. You in the big, in the boardroom, you know, that's a huge kind of pressure cooker environment. So anyway, I didn't know if that occurred to you or if you think about it, if there was some response from the body.
Mary Messner [00:09:26]:
You know, I haven't thought about it in that way. I will say, you know, physically, I would drop my daughter off at daycare and I would cry every morning. I mean, it was, there's feelings there as well, obviously, but it was, it was not something I could control. There were, there were tears every day for months, and everybody said it would get easier. But I do think that there was probably an element of anxiousness that probably lived there constantly. As I was saying, as I was telling myself I probably wasn't making the right decision of how I was spending my time, that probably did present itself as a bit of nervous anxiousness, if I reflect on it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:10:12]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:10:13]:
And when you finally said the words, what happened then?
Mary Messner [00:10:19]:
That was amazing. I, I, so here, here was what was really interesting is, is giving myself that permission. So I said, I remember walking back to my office and talking to a co worker of mine. We sat down together and I said, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna, I'm gonna quit my job. And she said, good for you. I want to quit, too. And then I called my husband.
Mary Messner [00:10:44]:
All right. Like, just fine. His exact words were, can I curse?
Theresa Hubbard [00:10:51]:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:10:54]:
His exact words were, shit or get off the pot already. And so his point was like, you've been, you've known that this needed to happen, and you've just been delaying the inevitable. So just, I mean, we've been talking about this for so long. And then, you know, the third thing that happened, when I went in and told my boss this, he immediately said, you know, I would love to keep you here full time or keep you here part time. I'd create a position for you if I could. But also, I want you to know that my family went through this. For one of the parents, we made the decision for one of us to stay home. And it was the best decision we ever made for our family.
Mary Messner [00:11:31]:
And I, I'm not trying to tell people, go stay home with your kids by any means. That's a, it's, it's obviously a personal decision. But think what was so interesting is when I did fully embrace that, it Was like all these other doors opened up. I now gave someone else permission the same to do the same thing. I demonstrated it, demonstrated the trust that my husband had in me to make the decision, patience that he had in me to allow myself to get there. It showed me the example in my boss of him having gone through a similar experience and how it turned out for their family. So, you know, embracing it wholly. That's not just an individual journey, if you will.
Mary Messner [00:12:11]:
Once I think you're honest with that, it starts creating connections that you didn't even know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:12:17]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Walker Bird [00:12:20]:
It's fascinating to me how we create this, the resistance, you know, it's almost like, I don't know, prison comes to mind where we're, you know, we put a fence around our. Ourselves, you know, what we know we need, and just there's this suffering associated with that. I mean, my heart just hurts thinking of you. You know, a professional executive dropping your daughter off and just not being able to control the tears that were coming. And your body, your soul is saying, hey, hello.
Mary Messner [00:12:59]:
What's so interesting about that, too, is the, you know, I said earlier that I always felt like I had the ability to shut out the outside world and make decisions that are right for me in that moment. I mean, the reality is that part of the reason I held on to who I was before for so long was not just because I was comfortable being, you know, this professional go getter, but I was a woman who had broken barriers very quickly, and that was. That was something to celebrate. That was a societal thing to say as a young woman and what you've already accomplished professionally, you are setting an example for other women. You're setting an example for your daughter.
Theresa Hubbard [00:13:46]:
Right.
Mary Messner [00:13:46]:
And so here's. Yes, I have this internal voice, but that was a moment I absolutely let external voices come in and challenge this decision I was struggling with.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:01]:
Yeah. And how unaware that we often are that there are external voices that are carving our path for us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's so great, Mary.
Mary Messner [00:14:16]:
So that's the inner knowing. That's the. I kept coming back when I was challenging myself to really think about this.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:22]:
Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:14:23]:
I kept coming back to that moment and just that the whole thing came down to us always growing and shifting who we are as humans and how you kind of navigate that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:41]:
Right. So that was almost 10 years ago. So when you think about the process for you since then, what's that been like and how have you best supported yourself since you've made that choice?
Mary Messner [00:15:02]:
I think making that choice and embracing it wholly has made every other choice since then easier. I, you know, I did stay part time. I ended up going back to work full time when my, my oldest was, I think they were both two and four. So I have two, I have two of them now. They're 22 months apart. And, and so I went back full time because I was ready to challenge my brain and in kind of new, in different ways again. But I think I've continued to be able to say, to gauge what really is important in the moment. And that means, you know, I'm not the, the PTA mom because for me it, all it does is create anxiety and stress.
Mary Messner [00:15:58]:
But I will show up as often as I can and I will sometimes tell my kids yes and sometimes tell them no, I can't be there. And that's also okay. And so there's, I think making that, that big fundamentally life changing decision to lean into what really mattered to me. It's a guidepost now that I can say, am I making that decision not perfect about it by any means, but to be able to say, am I making that decision because of someone else, because of fomo, because of comparison, or am I making it because it's actually something that's important and it's easier, I will say it's easier now to tease those two things apart.
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:40]:
Sure. Oh, yeah. Mary, I think we often don't really know why we're doing what we're doing or just doing it. And it's something that my children for sure, I would say overall have had a lot of irritation around. But I think as they have gotten older, because they're now 17 to 29, which is, oh, at least I know why I'm doing what I'm doing. Whereas when they were younger it's like, why are you asking me that? You know, I would say because I want you to know why you're doing what you're doing. You know, it's okay. I may not agree and it may not work out and that's fine.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:20]:
I just want you to do it intentionally.
Mary Messner [00:17:23]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I have that conversation with my 10 year old all the time. Help me understand why, why you made that decision. It's usually, it's usually in, in the midst of some heated breakdown with her sister that just, that just occurred. But you're right, there is, you know, I, and, and she's, they're, they're 10 and 8 now and so they don't always know the answers to that, to the question ask them. But it does start planting seeds to start.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:52]:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I know. I agree. Their ability, it's. It's a skill for them now because it's been practiced. Right. As opposed to starting to ask ourselves that when we're in our 30s, 40s, or 50s, it's kind of like, I don't, I don't know. Yeah, yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:15]:
And then also what do you really want?
Mary Messner [00:18:18]:
Or someone else said or, you know, and you could start naming the reasons, but. But yeah, they're. They're usually the external reasons if you don't take time to think about it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:28]:
Right, right. So what was the process for you realizing that you were more clear than you thought you were about your knowing?
Mary Messner [00:18:43]:
It was, it was. I mean, still being more clear. It was still very hard to settle into it. I think I, I remember, you know, I think who I, Who I had been was such a part of my identity, you know, And I remember I went and got a massage. I love to tell stories. They. They help me connect.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:16]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:19:17]:
I'm a speaker and so I. Stories are how I try to express things. So you'll go on my little storytelling journey here today. I went and got a massage. Was a gift or something. Massage Envy. And you write on the form that you fill out what you do, you write down your profession. And I wrote down.
Mary Messner [00:19:41]:
The first time I'd written it, I wrote, S A H M for stay at home mom. Well, that feels interesting to write down. And I handed the clipboard back in with this piece of paper on it. And the person working the front desk said, oh, you're a stay at home mom. That's amazing. I was like that. I, I didn't. It's not why I did it.
Mary Messner [00:20:08]:
I didn't do it to get. I didn't do it to get these ex. Like, a, didn't feel sincere and B, it was back to like, I did this for me, not for anybody else's opinion of it, but yet someone El. Else was immediately expressing an opinion. And that. So that was something that. I mean, again, I, I knew why I did it. I'd taken the time, I processed it, I made the decision I was going down the path.
Mary Messner [00:20:33]:
But it still didn't mean that every single step was always easy. At the end of the day, I can feel really good about the decision, but there's always those little curveballs that get thrown in where you got to kind of, kind of reset. And that was one of those examples of. I don't care what the person at Massage Envy thought about my career, but they, they hit a Nerve.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:55]:
Sure. Yeah. A little bit of insecurity or uncertainty. Yeah, yeah. And we can use those to help us get more clear. You know, I always say provides us an opportunity for contrast. Right. Let me.
Mary Messner [00:21:09]:
Yes.
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:10]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did make this choice. It is what I want.
Mary Messner [00:21:14]:
It is what I wanted. Yeah. Even when the question comes up, I can come back and re anchor myself in the fact that I made the decision that, that I wanted to. You know, I mentioned I'm a speaker and I, you know, I'm, I have a keynote that I'm doing tomorrow and I'm really nervous today. And you know, Walker, you were talking about how does it kind of feel in your body when you're doing that, that big thing. I know when I get up on a stage and I speak, it is the most energy selfishly receiving moment. I, I, the energy that I feel in me is, I mean, it's a high like no other runner is high. Same kind of a thing.
Mary Messner [00:22:00]:
I just really love it. And also every day before I do it, I'll feel fine tomorrow. Today, it's the day before I miss little puddle of nerves and I don't want to screw it up. And then I go, why do I even put myself through this? Is the energy really worth it to feel as nervous as I feel right now? And then I'll wake up tomorrow morning going, yes, today is. And so it's fascinating. You know, you think about, like, I could lean into that and say, oh, my body's telling me that I shouldn't be do this.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:33]:
And I actually think it's my body.
Mary Messner [00:22:34]:
Telling me I care that I want to do this badly enough.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:40]:
Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:22:41]:
That I'm a little anxious.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:43]:
Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:22:44]:
About it. Oh, I wouldn't have always said that I, that I could have named that of like, this is normal one day before I knew my be nervous. And I actually get to embrace it because it means that, that this is something that's really important to me. And so I don't know. Those feelings are weird. I'm living in this moment.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:04]:
I love it, Mary. I love your transparency. And it makes so much sense to me. I mean, I have a, I want to do it well in everything that I step into. And for me, that time ahead of time is kind of, I mean, this is how I imagine it. It's like I'm just trying to get all of my energy in my body aligned so, so that we're all going in the same direction. Right. Because, you know, it's not like that insecurity can't come in and that insecurity can't come in.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:36]:
And, you know, they're pulling, like, from different parts. And so I do feel like I'm just, like, telling my body, regulating my energy. You got this. Yeah. You got this, this. You love this. You are passionate about this. You know this.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:52]:
Yeah, yeah.
Mary Messner [00:23:54]:
And it's. And I think there's a consistency now that I know. I know the physical, the feelings I will have.
Theresa Hubbard [00:24:01]:
Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:24:02]:
As I get ready for it. I know what happens the day before. And I. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:24:09]:
Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:24:09]:
That's pretty wild.
Theresa Hubbard [00:24:11]:
Yeah, that's. It's great.
Walker Bird [00:24:13]:
Yeah. No, it's a really discerning point, too. I think it's important and in thinking about some of the things that I've shared in the podcast, you know, because I'm a trial lawyer, so we. I have to stand up in front of a bunch of strangers and convince them of something or at least lead them, you know, to the. To a conclusion that hopefully matches mine. But you have to discern between the body's response, whether it's a fear response, you know, is there emotion around it, etc. And I'll come in and out of that, you know, depending on what's happening while a trial is going on. And I go through a process of grounding.
Walker Bird [00:24:54]:
I mean, the last time there was sheer panic when a witness was destroying my case and I had to ground myself in the midst of it because what my body wanted to do was run out of the room, literally. And luckily, through a lot of work, I was able to, you know, to hold on to that, you know, and just take a deep breath, feel my feet on the ground, get grounded back in, so that the feedback from the body was actually, you know, was actual feedback telling me, we're going to make it through this versus run like hell now.
Mary Messner [00:25:32]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:25:32]:
Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:25:33]:
And it's funny because I think you do. You have to study those feelings. I mean, there's a lot of people that would say, I won't ever get up and speak. Speak. Whether you're a trial lawyer, a keynote speaker, or a, I don't know, leading a meeting at a. At a company in front of three people, they won't get up and speak because the nerves stopped them. And I think. I think there's an opportunity to try and study why those nerves exist.
Mary Messner [00:25:58]:
Why, you know, is it because you genuinely don't want. Like, that is just not something you want to do? You don't want anybody looking at you? Or is it because you care about it and so you want to do A good job and that creates an internal pressure in you. And you know, my 10 year old has, has developed a. I mean, maybe it's a fear, I don't know, that the idea of competing in sports where people are watching her and judging her and it's like completely stops her from wanting to do anything. And so I'm going through this process with her of like, help me, like, I really want to understand what that feels like and why do you, you know, and again, she's 10. She doesn't, she doesn't understand it yet. But I'm hoping.
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:48]:
Right, right, right.
Mary Messner [00:26:50]:
Hoping we can figure it out.
Walker Bird [00:26:52]:
Yeah. What a nice process. Lucky for her.
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:54]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:26:55]:
You know, to have a mom with insight to go down that path. Help her start learning how to check in.
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:01]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I believe she'll get there. Yeah. You know, it's, it's interesting, Mary, because when you were talking what I was thinking, I think we've been through this place in our culture for sure. I don't know, over the last 80, 100 years. When I look at like my parents and their awareness of their body experience typically is only around physical health as opposed to how does this impact me emotionally or mentally. And then I think, you know, there's, at some point we started paying a little bit more attention to the body, but then really not knowing how to interpret the information that it's giving. And so it makes me think about what you were sharing earlier.
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:50]:
Like I could take this feeling and I could use it to tell myself this means I shouldn't be doing this as opposed to spending the time to get clear. What is my body really telling me? It might feel like this thing that feels like fear or it feels like, yeah, fear and regret or this isn't my path or I'm not being, you know, authentic to myself. But I don't know that we spend the time to really get clear. So for you, how do you think you best support, I don't know, your continued learning about what's going on inside of you and what your body's telling you? I mean, are there certain classes you've taken or books you've read or people that you've worked with who you feel like, you know, were really important part of your journey?
Mary Messner [00:28:52]:
Gosh, yes, there's lots. There's several different. There's a couple different things that I'll throw out there. So you mentioned parents. You know, my dad is very in touch with his. The feelings that he's experiencing in response to different things. He's went Through a couple rounds of cancer and cancer treatments. And the whole time he was so intentional about what he was bringing forward and the positive, I mean, this guy is like, he goes on vacation and never rains.
Mary Messner [00:29:25]:
Like he just, things just work out for him and he's health wise, he's doing great. And, and he attributes so much of that, of just his worldview that he is always intentional on seeing the positive outcome of what could be of any given situation.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:43]:
Right.
Mary Messner [00:29:43]:
You know, he's out there just manifesting all this stuff like sunshine and rainbows and so, you know, as role model, he, he, he. And, and I think he's always been that way. I don't think as a child I realized it. We talk a lot more openly now.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:59]:
Sure.
Mary Messner [00:29:59]:
So that has been a huge, it's been a huge. Just from a role model standpoint.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:05]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:30:07]:
The other thing that I will say is I, I think now that I am aware, you know, I think, I think previously, and it wasn't necessarily just the, the transitioning career that gave me this insight to being aware. It's certainly a practice and I think experiences, studying experiences and focusing on how I feel about them. I have spoken to certain audiences and I will walk off that stage and say, oh my gosh, I am buzzing right now. That felt so good. And I will walk off stage with other audiences and I will say that I did terribly. That was awful. I feel awful. And I have a good, a good friend of mine who I will call up and I'll dissect all of that with her and she'll say, well, tell me about this, tell me about how the audience responded here.
Mary Messner [00:31:00]:
Tell me about that. And sometimes it'll be, I didn't do a good job and you know, we live and learn. And other times it will say, it'll be very clear that the people I spoke in front of, we just weren't each other's people. And so the energy levels didn't match. And I didn't get anything from speaking to that group. Not that I did anything wrong. It just, I didn't get, I didn't get what I needed. I didn't give them what they needed.
Mary Messner [00:31:28]:
And, and that's okay. Or sometimes it's a topic that they asked me to speak on and that topic doesn't give me any energy. And so to have someone that I feel like I can study that with and be really honest and say, I feel awful, I think I suck.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:46]:
Quit.
Mary Messner [00:31:46]:
My job, you know, to, to help me dissect it, that, that I think has Been really important. So, you know, certainly my dad. But then also having people that I'm comfortable being very vulnerable with and talking about failure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:03]:
Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:32:04]:
Or fear of failure or questioning failure. That's important.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:09]:
Yeah. Yeah. Such a great point, Mary.
Walker Bird [00:32:14]:
And hard to do.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:15]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:32:16]:
Even if we're not working with somebody else, that we're vulnerable. To be vulnerable with ourselves in evaluating when things don't go so well or flat on your face. It's. It's really important because the best learning comes.
Mary Messner [00:32:31]:
Well, and I think it's also. It, you know, it's a relationship builder.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:35]:
Absolutely.
Mary Messner [00:32:36]:
I. I like to. I like to know. I like to be in charge. I like to know what I'm doing. I like to be clear. And so to be able to open up those conversations and to say to somebody, okay, I don't actually don't think I know what I'm doing, and I don't think I'm in control in this moment and letting somebody else kind of take the wheel, that, for me, is very uncomfortable. But, you know, and it's not something that I do all of the time, but the moment that I do when I.
Mary Messner [00:33:10]:
When I do that with my husband and I say, okay, I'm. I need some help with this, I'm really stuck. I mean, our relationship in that moment just exponentially.
Theresa Hubbard [00:33:22]:
Oh, yeah.
Mary Messner [00:33:23]:
Gets better. It's. And that's a reminder to be vulnerable more often, too.
Theresa Hubbard [00:33:29]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:33:30]:
It's. Yeah, it's fascinating because I say all the time that vulnerability, for me as a trial lawyer is my secret power.
Theresa Hubbard [00:33:37]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:33:39]:
Because it is. It creates connection. And you point, you know, just the observation of your relationship with your husband when you go there. And it's just. It's nice to see it from a broader context. So thanks. Yeah. Cool.
Theresa Hubbard [00:33:55]:
Yeah. The trust that you've built there. Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:33:59]:
Yeah. And I think there's another, you know, that I think I. There's, you know, the vulnerability can have a little bit of a buzzword connotation to it that, you know, vulnerable and. And authenticity is another word that I think I am very big on showing up authentically. But vulnerability, that's a whole nother layer of. Right. Authenticity that I. I don't reserve for everyone.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:25]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:34:27]:
But I. Allowing that space with the people that I do truly trust, who I know that when they're going to give me the hard feedback or tell me the hard thing, they're doing it solely with the goal of supporting me in that process. That's. Those are those moments where it's. Where it's pretty special.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:45]:
Yeah, yeah. Yes, it is.
Walker Bird [00:34:48]:
Before we are finished, because I know you've got a meeting you need to get to, but tell us a little bit about your speaking. You know, what you're doing now. If you want to share.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:59]:
Everybody.
Mary Messner [00:35:00]:
Yeah. So I, I am a keynote speaker. I speak on creativity in the workplace. And for me, there's a lot of similarities in what we're talking about here. When I think about creativity, it's. This isn't like the arts and crafts kind of creativity, although that's certainly a part of it. It's just simply bringing a willingness to think differently into place, to try new ideas, to consider new possibilities. And I have a framework that I speak about and I call it Dream, Feel, Create.
Mary Messner [00:35:35]:
And you know, when we're faced with a challenge or a problem we're trying to solve at work or even some new idea, just our natural instinct is to like, jump in and say, all right, I'm going to, I'm going to go. I'm going to come up with the thing. And what I do is say, first you need to start with your dream for the thing. So limitations aside, what, gosh, if you could really go after it, what would that look like? What would be the big, huge dream? And then the second piece is. All right. If you achieve that dream. Oh, that feel like. And sometimes that makes you go wrong dream.
Mary Messner [00:36:19]:
If I, if I actually that. That business idea. That sounds so cool of me, starting my own business. And I'm going to go out there and get my llc. Okay, well, back up. Let's go. Let's go to the dream. What's the dream for the business? Oh, to own a multimillion dollar business.
Mary Messner [00:36:33]:
Okay, what would that feel like?
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:36]:
Right.
Mary Messner [00:36:39]:
Actually wouldn't feel so good. I feel that feels like busy. So it's walking through that process. So starting with a dream, focusing on the feeling, and then you go in, create. And that's to me, that it's what I've done professionally, like the journey that I've always followed. I study companies that are really successful and unique and unexpected, expected. And they are going down that same path as well. So.
Mary Messner [00:37:04]:
Yeah, Walker, to answer your question, when I, when I speak to audiences, whether it's a conference or, you know, an individual company, that is the message that I am bringing forward.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:16]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:37:17]:
Nice. I like the framework.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:19]:
Yeah, it is. It's really nice. Yeah. And similar. Right. To what we're doing, just in a different way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So people can find you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:27]:
What, what would be the. Your preferred ways of people finding you LinkedIn. Okay.
Mary Messner [00:37:33]:
I mean, I am on Instagram, Facebook. I don't do much on Facebook. Instagram is a whole other world that I have technology that I just have never taken the time to learn. I'm there. You can find me on Instagram. I'm there. As the Mary Messner. I went bold with my.
Mary Messner [00:37:50]:
With my handle.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:51]:
Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:37:53]:
LinkedIn, I think, is just a really beautiful space to. To put thought out there in a supportive environment. And so that's. That's my spot.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:02]:
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Mary. It was great. I knew it would be. And I look forward to further conversations in whatever context that might be. But it was really nice spending this time with you.
Walker Bird [00:38:15]:
Thank you. So nice to meet you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:17]:
Yeah.
Mary Messner [00:38:18]:
Thank you very much.
Walker Bird [00:38:20]:
If you've been wishing for deeper trust and authenticity in your relationships, looking for better communication skills with your partner, we hope that you'll join us for our latest course, 10 essential skills to building Stronger and healthier Relationships.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:33]:
Yeah. Everything that Walker and I do is something that we put energy into creating it thoughtfully and intentionally. We're very curious about what might be most helpful for people in building healthier skills in relationship. We recognize it's something that we all need to practice time and time again and know that we're not just talking about intimate partners in this course. We're talking about family, co workers, friends. We really want to walk through this process of building healthier relationship in all areas of our life, and we hope that you consider joining us. Enrollment opens February 1st. Launching March 20th.
Theresa Hubbard [00:39:20]:
First day of spring and the first day of our retreat. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:39:24]:
Yeah, we'll see you there.
Theresa Hubbard [00:39:26]:
Thank you. Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth, and we strive to be more compassionate every day.