Holding Space For Hard Conversations

Walker Bird [00:00:00]:
If you've been wishing for deeper trust and authenticity in your relationships, looking for better communication skills with your partner, we hope that you'll join us for our latest course, 10 Essential Skills to Build Stronger and Healthier Relationships.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:13]:
Yeah. Everything that Walker and I do is something that we put energy into creating it thoughtfully and intentionally. We're very curious about what might be most helpful for people in building healthier skills in relationship. We recognize it's something that we all need to practice time and time again and know that we're not just talking about intimate partners in this course. We're talking about family, co workers, friends. We really want to walk through this process of building healthier relationship in all areas of our life, and we hope that you consider joining us. Enrollment opens February 1st. Launching March 20th, first day of spring and the first day of our retreat.

Walker Bird [00:01:03]:
Yeah. Yeah, we'll see you there.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:05]:
Thank you.

Walker Bird [00:01:11]:
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life. Each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path. Hello.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:41]:
Hello. How are you?

Walker Bird [00:01:43]:
I'm good. How are you?

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:45]:
I'm good. Good. I've been sick, but I feel like I made some good choices in regards to taking some probiotics and some other things that are helping my body recover from whatever infection it's fighting, so.

Walker Bird [00:02:03]:
Good. Yeah. You usually don't get that sick.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:05]:
No, no. But I really think I got Covid, like, two months ago, and I think I probably killed off more of my.

Walker Bird [00:02:12]:
Gut back my biome and start over. Start over.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:15]:
Yeah. Well, at least help it out, right? Help it out. So, yeah, no, that was. It was pretty quick turnaround as soon as I did that, so. That was really good. So better tonight? My mind feels like it's working better, so. Thanks, babe. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:02:33]:
I'm glad you feel better.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:35]:
Yeah. So, yes, I know Walker doesn't know what we're gonna talk about tonight, so I told him. I told him that I had an awareness during my own therapy session today that I felt would be really helpful, you know, to process through and to, you know, not to assume that I know what was going on for you, but to better understand, you know, what was going on for you. So there has been this, I would say, more active problem for the last year with a. I don't know, how much can I say? Like, in general, can I talk about it, like, in general, I don't know.

Walker Bird [00:03:34]:
What the problem that you talk about is.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:36]:
Oh, with my commercial building.

Walker Bird [00:03:39]:
Oh, sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:39]:
Oh, okay. So problem with property manager.

Walker Bird [00:03:43]:
Yeah. You're not getting charged appropriately for the common area maintenance.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:49]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:03:50]:
I'll help you out with the legal first factor. Keep you out of trouble.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:53]:
Thank you. Thank you. And. And it's something that I have brought up multiple times over the years. Concerns. Not often, but when it would come into my attention, I would bring it up and I just, you know, got brushed aside with the same kind of answer. And there was a part of me that was aware that I felt like that I. I just didn't know, you know, and so what I was asking about, I must have just misunderstood or I must have just been wrong about.

Theresa Hubbard [00:04:28]:
And so after a few years of bringing it up, it just, you know, shuffled down into a lower priority piece because I just thought I must just not understand. And then. And then this. And then there were, you know, some other things over the last 22 years. It's been a long time since I've been in that building and I do own that building and. But nothing huge. I mean, overall, I take really good care of the building and it's just been overall a positive experience. And then last year, a new property manager had taken over and I got a reconciliation about a year ago.

Theresa Hubbard [00:05:19]:
That was basically a bill that said I needed to pay a substantial amount more than I had ever paid in the last 22 years. And it was more than I had paid the entire year.

Walker Bird [00:05:34]:
Right. Like four times as much.

Theresa Hubbard [00:05:38]:
No, not four times as much for that one particular. It was more than double.

Walker Bird [00:05:43]:
Double?

Theresa Hubbard [00:05:43]:
Yeah, it was more than double. And so I basically said, and, and then. And then we didn't receive it. And then I got this email, like, why aren't you paying this? I'm like, I don't even know what you're talking about. And then, you know, went through it and I was like, I don't owe you for these things. Like, you. This isn't stuff I'm responsible for. I think, you know, I know you're a new property manager, but I don't think you understand that, that you don't do those things for me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:10]:
So I don't pay those things for you because you don't do those things for me. I own my own building. I am not a tenant of your person. I own this building. And there was just a lot of pushback. And for me, this process of my understanding being questioned just made me go back like through all of my files, like, okay, am I misunderstanding something or something that I'm doing wrong? And in that process of going back through everything over the last 22 years, I came across those emails that I had sent years ago asking for clarification on things that I thought I shouldn't be paying for. And that just led into more investigation and more research and more seeking understanding. Plus then there's an office complex next door, which is actually where we record everything.

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:18]:
And, and, and in for that, I get very detailed information all throughout the year. From what? From the property management. Different property management company, not the same on everything. And so I then pulled all the information from, from this building's common area maintenance and compared it to the building next door. Again, separate complexes, but right next door to each other. And I was then further surprised at the difference in expenses for properties that are similar but right next door. And so in an effort to do it well this time and not on my own, I reached out to an attorney that I've known for a very long time to ask for guidance. So went through it with him, sent him all the documentation.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:20]:
He didn't feel like it would be something that would be that hard to resolve. Felt like it was pretty cut and dry. What the problem was and that we would have a resolution. Should not be complicated. And it has been almost a year with really no progress. Sent the information. We've made requests trying to get documentation. Nothing, nothing, nothing.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:52]:
The property manager, you know, and it was dealing directly with the person who runs the association and who owns the majority of the buildings in the office complex. And so. But again, nothing. No progress, no progress. And then their attorney gets involved. No progress, no progress. And what we're asking for is not. I mean, it's within the.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:18]:
I don't know what you call it. The. I can ask for it. Like I have the. I have the ability to ask for what I'm asking for.

Walker Bird [00:09:25]:
Sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:26]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:09:26]:
What you've overpaid or been overcharged.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:29]:
Right. And documentation.

Walker Bird [00:09:30]:
Intentionally right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:32]:
In documentation to support that. And I can't get anything right. And then I actually asked for just an authorization to get comparable to have someone give me a quote so that I can find out exactly what the cost would be. And I can't get that, you know, just can't get it. And I. And I've made an effort to involve you in this as little as possible because you don't need one more thing to do. It's not that I don't ask you questions occasionally, but I've never asked you to, like, dive in deep into it. And so I really have, you know, I think grown through the process, you know, gotten clear, more clear on what I can ask for.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:23]:
And so within the last month, I have come to a place where I am done being patient about it. And because what I believe is what is being done is wrong. And, and I don't have any evidence to show otherwise. And I've been asking, right, And I've gotten nothing.

Walker Bird [00:10:56]:
Stonewalled.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:57]:
Stonewalled, right, Absolutely. Deflective, avoidant. Right, Absolutely. And so within the last month, you know, I sent an email to the attorneys handling it, basically saying that I'm done and that any emotion in this email, you know, isn't directed towards you, it's directed to the situation where there is a really simple solution that is being ignored and that if I don't have a resolution by actually today, that I'm done putting forth any effort to resolve it in this way through emails, essentially. And then last Friday I received an email from my attorney, from the other attorney, basically saying, well, we, we're going to do it differently going forward. We're not going to charge you right now for anything that you may have owed us in a reconciliation for last year, but there's nothing we can do about the past. And my response, you know, my. Oh, and not only that, but I should be grateful that the, the person that is supposed to be managing the association and owns the majority of the buildings, I should be grateful for them, for what they've done for me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:51]:
And I was like, interesting. So there was a reaction for sure in my body and I was very aware that I wanted to respond immediately, but I didn't. You know, I thought about it, wrote a draft, waited till the next day, and actually was proud of myself because I had a ton of work to do in regards to preparing the course that's launching. And I was actually able to do work before finishing the email. And so I was like, look, you can, you can even shift in focus and the emotion's not, you know, taking you over. And then I finished the email and the email is very direct. The email is basically saying that isn't it nice that they have showed some responsibility, but it's not enough. And maybe the attorney doesn't really understand the context of this, but I've been asking for this, about this for at least seven years and have been brushed aside and brushed aside.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:15]:
And I know I've spent money on attorney's fees and, and, and, and, and oh, that thing that I Should be grateful for that. She covered the expense on this. Large expense that we had was actually something that I told her was a problem over 10 years ago. And had they dealt with it 10 years ago, the expense probably wouldn't have been so large. So, yeah, I'm not okay with just accepting whatever you've decided to hand over when these are issues that I've brought up for over 10 years. And I felt like my response was direct and clear and true. And I didn't ask for you to read over it ahead of time. And when I asked you to look at it earlier this week, there was something that happened to you when you read the email.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:27]:
And what I was looking for was that was awesome. And yes, that's all true. Everything you said is true. Because that's what I wanted really, was for you to look at it. I want you to be proud of me because I did a really good job. And it was direct and thoughtful and detailed and clear. And do you remember what your reaction was?

Walker Bird [00:15:53]:
Nope.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:54]:
Okay, so your reaction was, well, that was a lot of emotion. And I said, yeah, I know. That's not what I was looking for. And you were like, what are you looking for? And I said, well, I want you to read it and I want you to tell me. Like, is what I said true? I mean, was I not accurate? And so what I know is, is that when you read it, you had an emotional reaction that somehow got in the way of being able to talk about it, and we got there. I mean, that's not it. But I'm wondering, what was it that you think was happening for you when you read what I wrote?

Walker Bird [00:16:48]:
I'm not sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:51]:
Okay.

Walker Bird [00:16:52]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:53]:
Okay. What are you thinking?

Walker Bird [00:16:55]:
Well, a lot of things.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:57]:
Okay.

Walker Bird [00:16:58]:
That's okay, because you left this as a pregnant pause. Well, what's the conversation going to be about? And, well, I don't want to give you a clue because that'll.

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:06]:
I didn't want you to overthink. I didn't want you to overthink.

Walker Bird [00:17:08]:
Yeah, no, I mean, I don't know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:14]:
Okay, well, what I'm aware of is you focused on the emotion that was in there. And so what I was curious about is whether or not. And this is what my. You know, the curiosity came for me today when I was in therapy. And as. As I am in this place in my life where I am, I am more skilled at being direct. Is there some reaction, do you think, that you have, to what your body might perceive as my anger?

Walker Bird [00:17:59]:
Well, that's a big statement. And A big question.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:02]:
Yeah, it is. And that's why I'm curious because. Well, because we've talked a little bit about this, you know, and so. And I thought, I wonder, you know, because I know that when you read it, I lost you, you know, you were kind of gone when you read it. And then when I. And then I said that, you know, you said that was a lot of emotion. I was like, yeah, I know. And then I said, well, what about the things that I said? And you were like, I don't know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:33]:
And then you went back and it was great. I mean, you read it one line and you were like, yes, that's true. Yep. And you read the next line. Yep.

Walker Bird [00:18:43]:
Well, you told me what I said was true.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:46]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:18:46]:
And so I had to analyze it line by line.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:48]:
Right. Which was great. Which is great because that's when we got to what I needed from you. Right. But what I know is that your first reaction was to react to my emotion in the email. And so that's what I was curious about, you know, was it that, the way that I said it, so direct. I do not care that what he thinks he's giving me is enough. I do not care that blah, blah, blah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:24]:
So that's what I was curious about. And it's okay if you're not sure.

Walker Bird [00:19:30]:
Well, I could. It's coming.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:32]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:19:33]:
I think, I mean, at least how I can explain it as I sit here right now. But number one, I put my attorney hat on when I read stuff like that. So you're going to find an emotional come down while in. When I'm in an analytic mode, not when I'm in a trial mode. Okay. Because I can't go there. And so part of the reaction, I think, is as a professional, when I read something from a client that you know is emotional because there was emotional charge in the letter. My concern at that point for you, because you weren't dealing with me, you were dealing with these other attorneys.

Walker Bird [00:20:12]:
She just reminded me to put my hand down so I don't tap the table.

Theresa Hubbard [00:20:17]:
It's something he does when he's thinking. Well, it's when I talk too. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:20:25]:
My concern was that they would have a view of you as being dramatic, overly emotional and irrational.

Theresa Hubbard [00:20:36]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:20:36]:
Not assessing the situation from an objective standpoint. But I also know that your current attorneys are not aggressive.

Theresa Hubbard [00:20:45]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:20:47]:
And that's not, you know, when I do act on clients cases, especially when I feel like there's been overreaching or delay and obfuscation because you filled me in on facts as, as we view them. Right, right. I don't, you know, the kindness goes away for me. It's like, listen, this is the way it's going to be. But my concern, part of it, I think, was that. That they would not see that as a rational analysis of the situation.

Theresa Hubbard [00:21:26]:
Okay. Because.

Walker Bird [00:21:28]:
Because there was emotion associated with it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:21:31]:
Okay, so does that mean that in order for me to be effective that I can't communicate with emotion?

Walker Bird [00:21:43]:
No.

Theresa Hubbard [00:21:44]:
It's okay. Just asking.

Walker Bird [00:21:45]:
I know, it's okay. I don't dictate how you act.

Theresa Hubbard [00:21:48]:
I know, but the concern, even, Even if it didn't trigger you specifically.

Walker Bird [00:21:54]:
Well, it may have. That was the other part of the answer that was coming. Okay, but go ahead.

Theresa Hubbard [00:21:58]:
Okay.

Walker Bird [00:21:58]:
Even if it didn't trigger me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:22:00]:
Even if it didn't trigger you, you were concerned I would trigger the attorneys that represent me.

Walker Bird [00:22:06]:
Yes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:22:07]:
Okay. Okay. Why do you think so?

Walker Bird [00:22:10]:
Because I get the sense that they think you're not being reasonable anyway, that you should. You're making a big deal out of something that isn't worth the expenditure. And they. There's relationship with one of them, at least not deep, but some surfacey.

Theresa Hubbard [00:22:28]:
Right. Community relationship. Right.

Walker Bird [00:22:30]:
And some background. So.

Theresa Hubbard [00:22:35]:
So I should just eat the overpayment?

Walker Bird [00:22:38]:
Well, over the years, I've given clients advice before. You know, if I, If I'm looking at it from just a numbers perspective, I will say, Listen, I charge $750 an hour, whatever it is. Back in the day, I've come a long way, but, you know, I used to charge $450 an hour. And I can eat up your dispute in my attorney's fees in a heartbeat.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:07]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:23:07]:
Before we ever even get to the courtroom.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:09]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:23:10]:
Maybe before a deposition's even taken. So from a business perspective, that may not make sense to you.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:17]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:23:18]:
So I, I want you to think about it. And if people were. And this comes from a divorce context, usually when a parent came with an adult child, the parent would be beating the drum in the background and I would just look and say, listen, I understand, but see the picture over on my counter or on my buffet there, that's my daughter. And if you want to pay for her to go through college, will go all the way.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:48]:
Right. Right.

Walker Bird [00:23:49]:
And you may not be happy with the result when we get there.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:53]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:23:53]:
Or you may, but the choice is yours.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:56]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:23:57]:
That would be the speech that I would give people if I thought that there was emotion overriding a rational decision.

Theresa Hubbard [00:24:03]:
Okay.

Walker Bird [00:24:04]:
In your case, I have no idea what your attorneys are Thinking I get the sense that they view it that way because they're not acting aggressively.

Theresa Hubbard [00:24:14]:
Okay.

Walker Bird [00:24:15]:
Okay. So that's what was going partially through my mind. Consciously through my mind.

Theresa Hubbard [00:24:21]:
Right, right.

Walker Bird [00:24:23]:
Maybe not fully consciously, but that's. I know immediately that that's part of the analysis for me. And that isn't me saying that you're irrational. Does it make business sense to me? Only up to a certain degree. Right. And we would have had that conversation had you been my client, which is, listen, we can do X, Y and Z. Let's come swing and we'll see what happens next. Then you can make a decision if you want to go further.

Theresa Hubbard [00:24:52]:
Right. Nobody has swung for me.

Walker Bird [00:24:54]:
Right, right, right. And. But I also know that you're in a point in your life where the business side of this issue takes a back seat.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:04]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:25:04]:
And if that's your choice, as long as it's an intentional and rational choice.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:09]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:25:09]:
Then it's your choice.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:11]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:25:12]:
So I want you to understand I wasn't judging you for having emotion associated with it. That was. They're going to perceive this as an irrational decision making, part of rational decision making process.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:29]:
Yeah. And maybe so.

Walker Bird [00:25:30]:
Yeah. But I don't. I want to be clear. I'm not trying to dictate how you act. And if I tried, what I know is it wouldn't happen anyway. But we don't do that. We both come too far.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:42]:
Right, Right. Right.

Walker Bird [00:25:43]:
Yeah. So did you feel like I was trying to dictate to you the question that. The way you asked the question that led to this? Sounds like you were concerned that maybe I was.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:53]:
No, it was actually more like were you triggered by my perceived anger about the situation? Because we've talked about that before.

Walker Bird [00:26:02]:
Sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:03]:
Because. Because that was not the feedback that you gave me. You said, ooh, that was a lot of emotion. And then the conversation was over. And then I said, well, what about what I wrote? That's not what I was looking for. And you were like, what? I'm like, well, did I, Did I say it right? You know, or. I mean, was it accurate? And you were like, I don't know. And I was like, well, I want to know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:29]:
And then you read through it again, and that's when we went through it line by line.

Walker Bird [00:26:33]:
And.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:33]:
And so that was really my concern was, were you reacting to the emotion? Because it was like you hadn't read it from anything except that.

Walker Bird [00:26:49]:
Well, I don't know that I was done with saying that's a lot of emotion. You had children that I Was like, we're done. I'm walking, you know, like, I'm done helping you or giving you feedback or whatever. But I think that was my shorthand way of saying, that's a lot of emotion.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:06]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:27:07]:
You know, but without saying. And I. My concern is that these guys will think, you know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:14]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:27:14]:
That it's not a rational process.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:17]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:27:18]:
That it's an emotional process.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:20]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:27:21]:
And they'll discount it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:22]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:27:22]:
Tell me more about that from a law perspective only. Okay. Because I. My fear while we're having this conversation is being cast as, like, women can't have strong emotion.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:34]:
Well, I, you know, this is something that, that I know is in there for you. I mean, it's something we've talked about. And so that's what I'm.

Walker Bird [00:27:44]:
That women can't have strong emotion.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:46]:
Anger. Well, that anger is a trigger for you.

Walker Bird [00:27:51]:
Well, sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:52]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:27:53]:
I was abused as a child.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:54]:
Right, right.

Walker Bird [00:27:56]:
By my mother.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:57]:
Right. So what I'm curious. I mean, the, the point of having this conversation is I think this can happen a lot in relationship when we're looking for something from our partner or someone else. Right. It can be a family member. And then the emotion of what someone's experiencing in that exchange kind of overtakes what someone's looking for.

Walker Bird [00:28:25]:
Well, I mean, part of the struggle that I had with it is when we were done with that conversation, you said, well, that's not what I wanted.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:34]:
Right. It wasn't.

Walker Bird [00:28:35]:
And you know, my. I. And I can hear you, babe. But you know, my reaction to that is, well, I'm not here to tell you what you want me to tell you.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:43]:
Right. But I, But I didn't, I didn't want that.

Walker Bird [00:28:47]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:47]:
I literally wanted to know if the arguments I made were true.

Walker Bird [00:28:51]:
Yes. And when you were direct.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:53]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:28:53]:
You got a direct answer.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:55]:
Right. Right.

Walker Bird [00:28:56]:
And you said, I wanted you to tell me it was great.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:58]:
Right. Because I did. But it was great.

Walker Bird [00:29:03]:
It was a good letter. If I was writing it trying to convince those guys, I wouldn't have written it in that emotional tone.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:11]:
But that's you versus an attorney. But I'm not an attorney.

Walker Bird [00:29:14]:
You're not.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:14]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:29:15]:
You know, but there's more to the. There's more to this discussion between you and I.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:20]:
Tell me more.

Walker Bird [00:29:21]:
Well, we've had run ins in the past because you have, you have strong opinions and you're very smart. You've got a huge array of skills and background in law. Right. And sometimes it feels like you're second guessing my opinions as a lawyer with 30 years of experience.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:39]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:29:39]:
And that pushes on my ego or I'm not enoughness. You know, it isn't that I'm so proud that you can't call into question, but it's. It's like you take a really strong stance, like, you know better than me is how I interpret it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:56]:
Right, Right.

Walker Bird [00:29:57]:
And I'm not discounting your, you know, your intuition and your gut sense and your business sense, all those things.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:05]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:30:05]:
But I do know that I've walked down paths that you haven't walked down.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:09]:
Right. And that's what I'm talking about.

Walker Bird [00:30:11]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:11]:
Right. Because. Sorry.

Walker Bird [00:30:17]:
Left that on for you today because I never have my ringer on.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:21]:
Thanks, babe.

Walker Bird [00:30:22]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:22]:
Yeah. And that's exactly what I'm talking about. Right. Because. Because I'll say, you know, not in this conversation, because this wasn't part of it. I'll say, I'm not an attorney. I don't know. And so.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:35]:
But that's what I'm talking about is when you. Like when you just said, it's like. Like I'm pushing back on your ego. And that's not what I was doing. Right. I really wanted your opinion as an attorney about whether what I said was true and accurate, and I wanted you to be proud of me for it being true and accurate. That's what I wanted. Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:05]:
And so I hear what you're saying about, you know, I am aware, you know, Luke would say that I have gravitas in my speaking. And I don't. And I don't. But I don't always think about it like that. You know, like, I don't think about. I don't think I'm communicating in such a way as, like, I'm telling you what to do for me. I'm clear in what I'm experiencing, and I'm fine if you challenge me. Like, if you had read that and you would have been like, teresa, that is not true, what you said right there.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:43]:
You know, I would have been like, okay, oh, well, next time. Now I know better. But I was curious again, because of your reaction if what I had written was bumping up against something for you.

Walker Bird [00:32:01]:
Obviously, there's some piece of that. But also, in our interactions, we have had a couple of legal things come up. Right. Where I've assisted you with legal issues, or we're talking about, you know, a client's case or whatever it may be. And. And what I feel like ought to be direct, since you're asking, is. Well, I don't know that you're asking. But you're raising the issue, so I'm going to tell you.

Theresa Hubbard [00:32:28]:
Is that.

Walker Bird [00:32:28]:
Okay.

Theresa Hubbard [00:32:28]:
Well, I. Well, I know what you're talking about now. I didn't know what you were talking about before.

Walker Bird [00:32:33]:
Yeah, I mean, it's. But it's. I'm getting astride of what you want to talk about, but it does touch on why my reaction was the reaction that I.

Theresa Hubbard [00:32:43]:
Yes. And for me, when I go back, that is a completely different place. Right. This situation is not that situation.

Walker Bird [00:33:08]:
I'm not talking just about that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:10]:
Yeah, but that was. That was something that I'm. That was about mine. I'm not talking about other things. I'm talking about situations that involve me. And I remember saying to you, I don't fucking care.

Walker Bird [00:33:35]:
I don't remember that. About what? We won't go there. About a legal issue.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:44]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't remember specifically, but.

Walker Bird [00:33:47]:
Oh, I think I know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:48]:
Okay. Okay. Yeah. And it's to me, like, that the. That emotion and this emotion, they are not the same, you know, the. Obviously. Right. For me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:10]:
So there is, like, in, you know, that, you know, situation from several years ago. Yeah. Very different for me, emotionally. This situation is very different. I don't feel that. I don't feel helpless or not protected or, you know, misunderstood. Like, I don't. Like.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:05]:
So when I would say those things in the past, I mean, that was so. From my little girl. Right?

Walker Bird [00:35:13]:
Sure. That's on that particular thing.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:16]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:35:17]:
That's one piece of what I'm talking about.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:19]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:35:20]:
And I get that you're right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:34]:
And I think that, you know, process, you know, I learned a lot. I mean, it wasn't all good. Right. I'm not a fan of the legal process for the most part, because I don't think it's practiced like it could be. And I don't mean you. And I think you are clear. I don't mean you. I've learned a lot from you in all the areas that you step into.

Theresa Hubbard [00:36:25]:
And so where I am now, who I am now, how I walk in the world now, as opposed to how I did four years ago or five years ago or six. Who do you know me to be now?

Walker Bird [00:36:47]:
I don't know what you mean.

Theresa Hubbard [00:36:50]:
I mean, like, is the. Is the reaction that you had something that's. I'm thinking about who Teresa is today and how she's grown today and what her intention is today and where she is about this today, or am I pulling from things from the past that are informing how I'm engaging with you today.

Walker Bird [00:37:17]:
Well, right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:18]:
And this is what I'm talking about relationally.

Walker Bird [00:37:20]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:21]:
Like how we can not be communicating clearly because we're not here today having this conversation with. Who is sitting in front of me right now? Who is this person that has grown? Who is this person that puts effort into relationship every day? I mean, for both of us.

Walker Bird [00:37:45]:
You did all those things six years ago, too.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:49]:
Anyway, so that's the point of this, you know, like, when we're having conversation. Are we having conversation with who you are today? Who I am today?

Walker Bird [00:38:02]:
Well, it's the best, you know, our best effort to do that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:05]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:38:06]:
Because the past informs our behavior, our reactions, our predispositions, all of that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:12]:
Right. Patterns and exceptions. Right?

Walker Bird [00:38:15]:
Well, if you're aware, sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:18]:
Right. But that's what we're talking about. What is the benefit of doing the work that we want people or are encouraging people to do? Right. I mean, what comes from seeing the person who's in front of me today? What are you thinking?

Walker Bird [00:38:43]:
Oh, that. I don't know. I guess I'm feeling defensive and shameful.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:54]:
Oh, why, babe?

Walker Bird [00:38:56]:
Like, you're telling me that I wasn't seeing you as you are today, that I was prejudging you and it wasn't fair and.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:05]:
But that's what we do, right? I mean, but that's what we're trying to do less of. Right? It's not about perfection. Right. We don't always do it. Well, sure.

Walker Bird [00:39:24]:
This is one of those hard conversations.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:28]:
It's one of the hard ones, and we can still do them.

Walker Bird [00:39:34]:
Yeah. I don't know. There's other things that come up for me, but.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:50]:
Go ahead.

Walker Bird [00:39:55]:
Setting aside the case that you were talking about, I think it's the way that you'll say it sometimes, because you'll question me when I say it's this way.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:11]:
Like, it can't be that way, you know?

Walker Bird [00:40:15]:
And it doesn't feel like you're. It's just like you're effing wrong, buddy. And you don't know what you're talking about. And I'm like, yeah, I kind of do when I know what I'm talking about. About most of the time.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:25]:
I don't think I think that, but go ahead.

Walker Bird [00:40:27]:
Well, that's what goes through my mind, and that is driven by a whole lifetime of my experience, not just with you. Right. Goes all the way back to when I was a baby.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:39]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:40:40]:
So I can try and try again, you know, to. To be present. I also think that there's a shared responsibility I know you're not saying this, but sometimes I feel like partners. And in this case, if you had been more direct with me, you know, do you think this is accurate, what I wrote?

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:08]:
I just thought that's where you'd go, but I can see it. I just thought you were going to be so impressed, that you'd be like, wow, that was fucking amazing. I really didn't think that you'd get stuck on the emotion piece. But. No, I hear you. I hear you asking for me to be more direct. Right.

Walker Bird [00:41:34]:
Which you can, because you may not have known when you asked what you really wanted.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:38]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:41:38]:
You know, you were hopeful that I'd say, that's an amazing letter.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:45]:
Well, I did with that. I did. Yeah. But I did, I wanted the factual stuff too. Yeah. Because I didn't want to be, I mean, I really didn't think I was overstepping, but I did want that too, but. No, I hear you. I want to come back to that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:00]:
We don't often ask for what we really want. Right, true.

Walker Bird [00:42:06]:
And you may ask for what you want and not get it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:08]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:42:09]:
You know, because when you say, it's not what I wanted you to say, I didn't turn around and say, well, that was the most amazing letter I've ever read, which I just, I, I, I don't think that that's healthy for a relationship that you say, well, that's what I wanted you to say. And so then I say it to make you feel better and to get out of trouble or whatever it is, you know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:31]:
Yeah. No, no, I wouldn't want you to lie to me. I mean. Yeah, absolutely not. No, I really, I mean, I wanted you to be proud of me, but I really wanted to know, I mean, ultimately, when it came down to it, did I say anything incorrect? Right. And you gave me the feedback, which was good. Helpful. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:58]:
But going back to hardcore. Sorry I've been sick. Much better today. I think we already talked about that, but it's still in there. But laughing too much will make it make me want to cough. Being more specific in what we're needing. What else?

Walker Bird [00:43:54]:
I guess, I don't know. Think through what your reaction will be if you don't get what you wanted, you know, I mean, if you're going to ask the question of a partner, then you need to be prepared to take the answer that you got. And that may not saying, well, that's the end, that's the end of it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:25]:
Which I didn't and you didn't.

Walker Bird [00:44:27]:
No. And I didn't either. I mean, it may have felt that way when I said, that's a lot of emotion, you know, and I could see that. And I'm sorry if I hurt you.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:38]:
Oh, yeah. I don't think it hurt me. It's just what I wanted, your first reaction to me. Yeah. That's all.

Walker Bird [00:44:51]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:52]:
Yeah. What.

Walker Bird [00:44:56]:
I think as a partner, you know, I don't. I want you to feel good. Right. And it all depends on context, too, you know, when and when. I can just tell you, when you put me in the lawyer role, I'm a different person.

Theresa Hubbard [00:45:13]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:45:16]:
I am.

Theresa Hubbard [00:45:19]:
Yeah. It's tricky.

Walker Bird [00:45:21]:
Well, that is. You know, and I'm just. I'm not just a transactional guy. I'm a litigator.

Theresa Hubbard [00:45:29]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:45:31]:
So, you know, there's a fierceness that comes with that, and. And there's an ego piece, a protective piece, reactive piece. I mean, there's just a lot associated with it. But I hear you when you say, you know, I need you to not draw on, you know, your history with. If a woman is angry, how, you know, how does that impact you? And I think it's important for me to analyze that, to look at it and be able to then see the issue within our interactions. That is part of, you know, where I am coming from.

Theresa Hubbard [00:46:24]:
Thanks, babe.

Walker Bird [00:46:25]:
Before taking the next step or talking.

Theresa Hubbard [00:46:39]:
What?

Walker Bird [00:46:41]:
No, I just. It's gonna take some thought on my part. So what came up in the therapy session for you since that's what started all this?

Theresa Hubbard [00:46:54]:
Well, it's interesting because Walker, that son of a bitch. It's so funny because you said that forever, and I'm like, I know. It's not what I think. No. What I think probably happens for most of us, which was. It was a little bit later. It wasn't like, right away, because I really did want your feedback on whether what I had said was accurate, but did trigger within me that I had crossed the line in asking too much, for sure. And so even what I'm aware of right now, sitting in this chair is even when I shared with you on the drive over here, this is the email that I'm sending on Monday morning.

Walker Bird [00:47:55]:
You got a similar answer, didn't you?

Theresa Hubbard [00:47:59]:
Even me needing to tell you that was me reaffirming to myself that what I am asking for is not wrong, that I am not being an unreasonable woman in asking, because that's the trigger. When I said to you, this conversation is about growth for me. Remember when I said that this is about growth for me, was your reaction then triggered in me that I was being an unreasonable woman and I can't be angry knowing you have the trigger about women being angry. Right.

Walker Bird [00:48:44]:
Well, men, too.

Theresa Hubbard [00:48:45]:
Men too. But that was like, you know, that's what it triggered in me was doubt. Because your reaction wasn't like, that's fucking awesome. Then my trigger then is. It was too much. Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating, huh? Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:49:13]:
So then I had to work through that throughout the week. Right. What you're asking for isn't wrong, Teresa. You've been reasonable, you've been kind, you've been patient. You've provided all the documentation. You've been open, You've been willing. Where's the line, Teresa? When do you get to draw the line?

Walker Bird [00:49:39]:
Yeah. I'm curious why you have to question yourself about whether you're asking for too much. I mean, we've had that conversation multiple times.

Theresa Hubbard [00:49:48]:
Oh, sure. Well, I just think it's a message that I've received my whole life, for sure.

Walker Bird [00:49:54]:
To be clear, I don't run around saying misogynistic things and saying women are overly emotional and shouldn't be angry or anything like that. I'm feeling defensive because I don't want people who watch us to think that that's who I am in the background, because it's not. Does it. Does it raise things inside me when you get angry? Yes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:50:21]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:50:22]:
If that is fear.

Theresa Hubbard [00:50:23]:
Okay. Okay. To be clear, Walker does not do that. This is just. This is just our internal processes that we're sharing about how complex we are and how messy it is. Right.

Walker Bird [00:50:40]:
Well, I mean, there's. There's both of our. It's like. What do we call that? The trauma dance. That's what this is.

Theresa Hubbard [00:50:47]:
Right? Right.

Walker Bird [00:50:48]:
Your trauma, my trauma. Dancing right off to the side of the two of us trying to have a conversation where I give you feedback on a letter or respond to you talking about sending an email.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:02]:
Right, Right.

Walker Bird [00:51:04]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:05]:
Yeah, yeah.

Walker Bird [00:51:11]:
Mm.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:18]:
What?

Walker Bird [00:51:20]:
You tell me. What else?

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:31]:
I don't know, babe. I don't know that there's anything else. I just thought it would be an interesting conversation to have because I was aware of what my shame reaction was, and then the fear that came and the work that I had to do throughout the week to not back down from the deadline that I set.

Walker Bird [00:51:58]:
Fascinating.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:59]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:52:00]:
I just don't. Wouldn't have anticipated that. You know, I don't see you that way.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:07]:
A lot that goes on inside.

Walker Bird [00:52:09]:
Sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:09]:
No, a lot of processing, a lot of working through fear. What?

Walker Bird [00:52:20]:
That's just not how I see you.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:23]:
Struggling, questioning, working through that questioning your.

Walker Bird [00:52:27]:
You know, when you get firm on something, it doesn't ever strike me that you're questioning it in the background.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:36]:
Oh, sure, yeah. Yeah. I, I don't, I don't think. I couldn't not. I think that's always happening. It's like. Even if, even though I am very clear what I'm doing on Monday morning, it doesn't mean that sending that email on Monday morning will be easy for me. There will still be a part of me that will be, that will struggle a bit with how the attorney that I've known for so long will then he decide that I am somebody that I'm not because for the first time in 24, five years, he will see me set a boundary around something he's never had to see me set a boundary around because our relationship has never been that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:34]:
So then do I become.

Walker Bird [00:53:38]:
An unreasonable woman?

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:40]:
An unreasonable woman? Because I said enough.

Walker Bird [00:53:47]:
Does he become an uncaring. No man.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:50]:
He doesn't. Not for me. That's not me. It's not where I go.

Walker Bird [00:53:58]:
Yeah. I mean, but it's. My point is that it's a two way street. What I, what I would say is I think, I think it would be helpful to be very direct about, you know, there is emotion for me around this because I feel like I have been wronged and minimized not by you, but by. I told them that I did clear about that and I'm willing to spend more money than I might recover to make my point.

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:43]:
I already said that.

Walker Bird [00:54:45]:
Well, then he didn't hear you very well.

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:48]:
Yeah, two weeks ago I said both those things.

Walker Bird [00:54:50]:
Okay.

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:50]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:54:51]:
I mean, at the end of the day, you know, if I had a parent have that conversation, I don't know that there was ever a time where they said, I'd love to put your daughter through college. They were like, oh, yeah. You know, and then it stopped and it was. That's how. That was my philosophy about that type of work.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:08]:
Sure. So for me, I'm at that point in my life. Right.

Walker Bird [00:55:13]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:14]:
I have not done anything wrong. I haven't done anything wrong. Right, right.

Walker Bird [00:55:20]:
And you, if you were overreaching, you know, I don't know how it will all play out. We don't know for sure about certain aspects and we're not going to get into the details. But you're not asking for something that's not possible.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:35]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:55:36]:
You know, if it was just flat out never going to happen just because it wasn't within the bounds of the law.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:43]:
Right, right. Then that'd be different.

Walker Bird [00:55:45]:
He would be justified in saying you are unreasonable.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:48]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:55:50]:
But what I'm asking, when you're rational and say, you know, I understand from a business decision perspective, this may not make sense, but this is what I want.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:00]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:56:00]:
And they're not hearing you, then you've got a problem.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:03]:
Right. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:56:06]:
If you hadn't said those things, you would need to.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:09]:
Oh, sure, yeah. No, I could.

Walker Bird [00:56:11]:
You know what I'm saying? This is part of that. That can be whole. The whole point of the conversation, you know, whether it's with me as your partner or some other person, whether it was a female attorney or male attorney, you know, being very direct about those aspects. So they can. You're not leaving them guessing.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:32]:
Right? No, no, I didn't. I was very clear.

Walker Bird [00:56:34]:
Because the truth is there is emotion around it. And not surprisingly.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:38]:
So, yeah, yeah, different.

Walker Bird [00:56:41]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:41]:
Emotion. It's really. To me, at this point, you know, it's a justice issue. It's like, okay, someone is very clear that they're taking advantage of people and an unwillingness to rectify it. And for me, it's like, okay, well, now you've even admitted that what you were doing wasn't the way it should be done, but you're not going to do anything about it in the past. And, oh, by the way, be grateful for what they've done for you. You benefited from my mistake. I mean, which I didn't.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:22]:
But that's the story that's being woven. Right. And I'm just not okay with it anymore. And so for me, and I was very clear with the attorneys in a phone call that we had a few weeks ago, when I explained to them, you know, the emotion piece, this isn't about you. I'm not upset with you. This sedition, this is ridiculous that this has continued. This was a simple solution. Very simple.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:50]:
They refuse to rectify it. And I'm not just fighting for me anymore. I'm fighting for everybody. That this person impacts that for every person that they are taking advantage of. Every one, everyone. And I can choose that because it's just not okay. Just run your business, honestly. Run it well.

Theresa Hubbard [00:58:40]:
I mean, this person has the resources and they don't do it well in a lot of ways, not just this way. That's what it's about for me. And I understand it doesn't make business sense, and I understand the risk.

Walker Bird [00:59:30]:
I see something in your eyes. What is it?

Theresa Hubbard [00:59:38]:
I think it's just clarity. I think it's important to be clear, but it doesn't mean there's not doubt that comes popping up even if I'm clear. It just means more conversation I have to have inside myself.

Walker Bird [01:00:14]:
It's just, it's a lot. It's, it's because it said, you know, it's right in what I do, right? And over many years, you know, I did things and it would be, you know, to me, if you're asking me to carry your flag as a lawyer, but you don't want to pay for.

Theresa Hubbard [01:00:40]:
It.

Walker Bird [01:00:43]:
Then I'm reactive. And I think there, over the 30 years I've done this, there have been times where I have carried the flag just because I felt guilty, you know, even though the person had no intention of having any part of it, any skin in the game or making sure that I was paid for my time, etc. And so there's a piece of that in this too. When I hear you say that and I, you know, we all want, well, I don't know that we all want. Some of us reach the point where it's just like we're not backing down anymore. I'm not just going to turn away. I'm going to, you know, pursue this because I think it's right. And from the attorney's perspective, that's great.

Walker Bird [01:01:33]:
Just be willing to pay all the way if you want to go all the way. And that's hard. It's hard to tell people that because, you know, we're. I, at least I'm in it because I do care about justice, but the business part of it, because I know from experience, you get to the end of that road and the person may still not be satisfied. Let's say you lose and it costed five times as much as what you were owed. You know, that can be a difficult situation. And I'm not saying that's you because they don't think it's you.

Theresa Hubbard [01:02:10]:
It's not me.

Walker Bird [01:02:10]:
If you go that direction, you will do it knowingly. And from that perspective, I think it's the right thing to do.

Theresa Hubbard [01:02:21]:
Right. I'm not asking anybody to carry my flag. I'm asking them to do their job. I'm asking them to do what I've been paying them to do, which is to fight for me.

Walker Bird [01:02:50]:
Did I tricker you?

Theresa Hubbard [01:02:57]:
I wanted to be clear that I wasn't asking someone to carry the flag for me. I want them to be my advocate because that's what I hired them to do it. I'm sure as an attorney, it's hard. Maybe you don't come up against people or I don't know. Have clients like me very often who are willing. I won't have regret if I lose. I won't ask you to eat it if I lose. I know that happens.

Theresa Hubbard [01:04:21]:
People want you to take less than what they agreed to. That's what I'm asking for.

Walker Bird [01:04:39]:
Yeah, well, if you heard me saying that was you. That's not what I was saying.

Theresa Hubbard [01:04:48]:
No, I don't think that's what you were saying about me. I think it's being clear about what we're accepting the responsibility of. And I think your point is important because sometimes we do want other people to carry the flag for us while we sit back and we're not invested in the outcome. That isn't what I'm asking. And it's not what you do. What are you thinking?

Walker Bird [01:05:41]:
That it's a hard conversation.

Theresa Hubbard [01:05:46]:
It is. I was thinking, should this be module 10 of the course?

Walker Bird [01:05:56]:
I don't know. What's module 10?

Theresa Hubbard [01:05:58]:
How to have hard conversations.

Walker Bird [01:06:04]:
I think we're gonna need a follow up. I'm not sure that it's everything I'd.

Theresa Hubbard [01:06:09]:
Want it to be. It's okay. It's okay. It's just a teaser. Then where?

Walker Bird [01:06:59]:
Yeah, I don't know. It's. It's difficult. I think that. I mean, how I feel is that you have a lawyer thing. Because you say it a lot, you know, and so I. There's a part of me that's defensive. Probably anytime we interact on legal stuff.

Theresa Hubbard [01:07:39]:
There'S been a lot of disappointment. Not about you. And not just attorneys. It's really about for me, people who have the ability to not sit on the couch. And they do anyway. That's my trauma. It doesn't really matter who it is or what their position is. Priests in the church, teachers that I had, parents.

Theresa Hubbard [01:09:16]:
I would say a lot of people in authority figures. It's probably one of the reasons that I talk so often about people in positions of authority, about being brave. It's hard to be brave. I think we worry a lot about getting kicked out of the cool kids club.

Walker Bird [01:10:12]:
I'm not in anyone's club.

Theresa Hubbard [01:10:16]:
I don't think I was.

Walker Bird [01:10:18]:
I've been in a club before, but.

Theresa Hubbard [01:10:36]:
It. I love you.

Walker Bird [01:11:07]:
I love you too.

Theresa Hubbard [01:11:10]:
What?

Walker Bird [01:11:12]:
I'm ready for this one to be over.

Theresa Hubbard [01:11:24]:
Sorry, I don't want to start coughing. Thank you.

Walker Bird [01:11:43]:
It's all the emotion.

Theresa Hubbard [01:11:53]:
For being willing to just keep stepping in to hard things. That's what it's about. Because it is hard anyway, right? It is hard conversation. Avoiding hard conversation. It's hard. Anyway.

Walker Bird [01:12:28]:
Yes.

Theresa Hubbard [01:12:36]:
Thank you for being brave.

Walker Bird [01:12:40]:
We are so excited about sharing with you our new retreat, Becoming Unshakeable: From Self-Doubt to Daring.

Theresa Hubbard [01:12:48]:
Yeah, we love doing retreats. It's a lot of fun. We really enjoy that group in person process. Everything that Walker and I create is something that we do with a lot of intention. Every retreat we do is a new retreat. We don't repeat retreats. And so it's always an adventure for us in creating the next one based off where he and I are and our own personal growth journey.

Walker Bird [01:13:17]:
Yeah. We look forward to holding space for you.

Theresa Hubbard [01:13:19]:
Yeah. We hope you'll consider joining us. Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth and we strive to be more compassionate every day.