What Is Whispering to Me?

Walker Bird [00:00:04]:
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life. Each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:32]:
Well, hello, Brad.

Brad Hill [00:00:34]:
Hello. Hello.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:35]:
Thanks for joining us today.

Brad Hill [00:00:37]:
Yeah. Honored to be here.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:38]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:00:39]:
Honored to be in the space. This is. Bravo.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:43]:
Well done.

Brad Hill [00:00:44]:
Thank you. Well done. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:48]:
Well, you and I met several months ago. Yep. Through a mutual friend. Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:00:53]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:53]:
So would you tell us a little bit about you and, you know, what your. I don't know. Not the story that we typically tell people about who we are, but maybe a little bit more about who you are.

Brad Hill [00:01:06]:
Come. You know, Grew up in North Louisiana, yada, yada. Oldest of three siblings. I always had a sense that, I don't know. I, you know, we're talking before, I always had a pretty good sense of, like, internal tuning fork. Like, I'm gonna do this.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:33]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:01:34]:
You know, I don't know. This is not for me. Everybody's doing this. Cool. Yeah, I'm doing this.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:40]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:01:42]:
Mom and dad got divorced. I was six. No, that's not true. I think a little older than that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:50]:
Okay.

Brad Hill [00:01:51]:
And oldest, over responsible, you know. You know, got to be the man of the house. All that. And really, for most of my life. And very involved in church stuff. Okay. That's. That's.

Brad Hill [00:02:11]:
I mean, sports stuff as well. Very involved in church stuff. Found a sense of identity in the groups I was a part of religiously with that. And I just, I. I didn't. I didn't feel my anger toward my dad until probably 17, 18, and. Yeah. And so just happy.

Brad Hill [00:02:49]:
Go lucky. Like, I remember playing sports. I remember I was asked to. To preach at a church experience. And I was like, sure. As a teenager at 16.

Walker Bird [00:03:03]:
Oh, my. Okay, go ahead.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:05]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:03:05]:
So, yeah, Sunday night. Sunday night. It was not intimidating to me, you know, is like, okay, you know, I mean, there's a strike, three points, blah, blah. And I remember walking off the stage and people. People looked at me differently. I remember thinking that, like, I knew that. It's like, huh. Like, literally, like a day ago, a few of these people just did not.

Brad Hill [00:03:39]:
You know what I mean? Like, and all of a sudden, it's like, oh, man. Like, let's get together.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:43]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:03:44]:
Cool. And so I knew, you know, junior year, high school, senior year, high school. And I'll throw this in as well. There were some Aspects to relationship with dad. There was definitely abuse there. Okay. What I remember, what I've remembered so far is definitely moments of physical abuse. And I learned later that how I dealt with that trauma was being uber nice.

Brad Hill [00:04:21]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:04:21]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:04:22]:
Go along to get along. Don't. Don't bring anything up. And. And that seemed to work until I met people that wanted to actually get to know me. And so fast forward, junior senior year of high school, had preached or spoken a lot, was deciding, okay, where do I want to go? Like, do I want to do like a, you know, ministry pastor thing, or do I want to do sports broadcasting? I love sports stuff.

Theresa Hubbard [00:04:55]:
Right.

Brad Hill [00:04:57]:
And I. I knew that I wasn't going to be where I was. Everybody in my. Everybody in my class, literally, you know, they were going to college around, you know, Oak Grove, Louisiana. And I just knew. I was like, no, this ain't for me. Like, and does that make sense? Like, I knew at. I.

Brad Hill [00:05:23]:
I don't know where I'm going, but I know I'm not going to be here. And. And so I went to Oklahoma City to college. Got a degree in pastoral ministry. Like, minor in pastoral ministry. I'm major pastoral ministry mimer, Like Bible, Latin, Greek, Aramaic, all that. And. And met my wife there.

Brad Hill [00:05:49]:
Amazing. Like, amazing experience. Still didn't really look at the anger, like, the actual rage.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:04]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:06:04]:
That I had. Didn't. Didn't look at it, probably because I just did. I don't know that I would have known what to do. Right. So did some amazing stuff in college. We started this event. Started this event.

Brad Hill [00:06:26]:
I was like, helping out a lot of different churches. The churches I was at is like, man, this is 90. I was there 95 to 99. Okay. This ain't it, man. Like, what I'm smelling in churches back then and what I was experiencing from what people were really dealing with was not matching up. Right. So I was like, I'm just going to create something.

Walker Bird [00:06:51]:
Tell us more about the not matching.

Brad Hill [00:06:53]:
Up what people were really, what I experienced people were really interested in and wanting to be aligned with was not matching up with what I experienced. A lot of the religious communities that I was a part of were actually offering. Does that make sense? Like, it just was not there, wasn't aligned. And so they just kind of accept it. It's like, okay. And I've never been that person.

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:23]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:07:24]:
I was like, I don't know how to, you know, I'm not interested in pushing this down. I'm actually interested in amplifying this. Right. Like, that seems to Work. Well, for me, it's worked in my life. And so we just created something. I was like, okay, well, I want to create a space that helps people explore. Explore their spiritual journey.

Brad Hill [00:07:45]:
Right. And I. We were connected to nothing. Okay. And it blew up big. Wasn't planning for it. You know, it's just like, this is fun. I want to do fun.

Brad Hill [00:07:56]:
So, like, great. Like, I want. Honestly, it's like, I want to do fun with fun people. Like, that's what.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:00]:
That's it.

Brad Hill [00:08:01]:
That's life. Okay.

Walker Bird [00:08:03]:
I like it.

Brad Hill [00:08:03]:
Enneagram, 7, 8. And so. So we did. And then at the end of the time, this is my. Between my junior, senior year of college, met Reagan. That was the. She was the first relationship that first person I had been with that I didn't feel like, needed me. Like, she just wanted me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:32]:
Right.

Brad Hill [00:08:32]:
You know, like, she didn't need me. She just wanted me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:35]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:08:36]:
And that was new.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:40]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:08:42]:
And. And so. Yeah. So progressing. Then a guy become a friend. Had a. Had a church in Kansas City. He came down to our gathering.

Brad Hill [00:08:56]:
We called the gathering Soul Asylum. It was not connected to anything. It's just, you know, we actually changed the Y to an I, so we didn't have, like, any. There's a band, used to be called Soul Asylum. Oh, yeah.

Walker Bird [00:09:06]:
This is back in the mid-90s or late-90s.

Brad Hill [00:09:08]:
Late-90s. Okay. Yeah. And so just kind of following, like, what's next? Like, just internal following, like, I wonder what's next.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:18]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:09:20]:
Moved to Olathe, Kansas. I never been. I remember the first time I came up here. Never been to Kansas City. Never been to Kansas. I was driving on i35, and there is a. There's an exit, literally, called Cattle pens on the i35.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:37]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:09:37]:
I was like, what in the hell? Where in the hell are we going? Like, what is happening? And. And it's just new. It's like, okay, next chapter. Like, next adventure. And with Reagan, you know, awesome new. Like, we are totally on. We don't need each other. We want each other.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:03]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:10:03]:
Right. Yeah. Very honest with each other. She knew all my story that I knew to tell back then.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:09]:
Sure.

Brad Hill [00:10:09]:
Okay. And vice versa. Yeah. She didn't care if I was a pastor. She didn't care about any of that. You know, she's like, me. And moved to Olathe, Kansas, Started working at a large church in Olathe called Any. At that time, it was called Indian Creek.

Brad Hill [00:10:25]:
It's not that name now, but Any Creek Community Church. And. And I was like, man, all right, cool. About a year and a half in the. One of the questions I ask people, because it's asked of me, is what's whispering to you that you've been reluctant to acknowledge, right?

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:46]:
Oh, yeah.

Brad Hill [00:10:46]:
And that awareness has really been helpful in my life, especially if I feel stuck. And so about a year and a half, and what was whispering to me was, you know, you're going to have to deal with what's really down there at some point. Right. I was like, I mean, I just pray about it. I'll just pray about it. Come on now. Like, you know, let God deal with it. It and.

Brad Hill [00:11:25]:
Except you don't deal with it. I didn't deal with it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:11:28]:
Right.

Brad Hill [00:11:29]:
And. And. And then my view of God was changing dramatically. I was like, man, I actually care about transformation, not information. Like, I want to be a part of stuff that actually transforms people to help them be who they really want to be.

Theresa Hubbard [00:11:54]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:11:55]:
You know, and this ain't it. This ain't working. So I've never done therapy. Nothing. Had a friend of mine that went through this seminar at that time. It was called Breakthrough.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:14]:
Okay.

Brad Hill [00:12:14]:
Okay. It's a four weekend seminar. And he didn't. He couldn't tell me what happened. He couldn't tell me anything about it. I was like, oh. And like, then what was interesting is, like, everybody I was working with at any creek, they all went through this thing and they were just like, oh, you'd love it, dude. Like, can you tell me what happens? Okay.

Brad Hill [00:12:33]:
And it got to the point where, like, so many people had told me, you need to do this. That I noticed recognized cynicism, like, strongly pop up. I was like, if we. One other person tells me, you know, you gotta try this, you know, I am going to vomit. And I was so cynical, which now I know, like, definitely pay attention to the stuff I am cynical and sarcastic about, because that is the way home.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:06]:
Absolutely.

Brad Hill [00:13:06]:
It is leading me. The cave you fear holds the treasure you seek. It is leading there. Oh, yeah. It is leading there. And so I can be curious about it or I can, you know, just try to shut it down. It won't get shut down, but I can try to. Right, right.

Brad Hill [00:13:22]:
And so I went through this thing and life changing.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:31]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:13:32]:
Like, I never ever done work like that. And one of the things that I didn't realize it then, but like, I. Thankfully I was curious about it is Reagan would say something to me like, I love you. And I loved her. That was true. But it. For whatever reason, it was so hard for me to say back to her three English words.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:11]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:14:12]:
Like, I love. I'd be like, oh, yeah, me too. Love you. You know, some bs, Right? And it's like, man, what is. What is that?

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:24]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:14:25]:
You know, and I. I is great because for what? For whatever reason, I guess. Grace. Whatever. Like, I. Historically, I would beat myself up on that instead of just being curious about it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:41]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:14:42]:
But this time I was curious. I was like, man, what's that? Well, literally, like, three weeks later, I'm going into this thing called breakthrough. It's like, huh? And got a chance to really dive in to my life and my story. Got a chance to really lean into. I mean, just anger. Like, the anger that I thought nobody knew. Right. And with dad not being present with myself.

Brad Hill [00:15:22]:
Yeah. And got a chance to find my way home. You know? Um, I never done that kind of work. And it was. I mean, it was. Seminar does not tell a story. I know you guys do some of this work. Immersive.

Brad Hill [00:15:41]:
Tells it way better. Like, I think, you know, some of the work I get to do now. I mean, seminar. I rarely say that just because I think people think classroom style, setting. We're going to go take notes. I'm like, you're not going to do any of that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:54]:
You're right.

Brad Hill [00:15:55]:
Okay. Like, this is full immersion. Like, think going out in the ocean. You can tiptoe, and you're. You're. You're barely above water. You got to jump to stay with the waves. Probably more than that, you know, And.

Brad Hill [00:16:11]:
And it's going to feel like you're being put out of the only game you've ever known.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:17]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:16:18]:
But what you don't know yet is there is way more in you than you know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:25]:
Mm.

Brad Hill [00:16:25]:
And the only way I will know. You will know is to step into these moments that call on me to step up.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:39]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:16:40]:
You know, and it's incredible. I mean, there were moments in that immersive that if you had told me before I went in that we're going to do this right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:58]:
Right.

Brad Hill [00:16:59]:
Hell no way. Like, no. But that is exactly. That is exactly what I needed.

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:08]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:17:09]:
And so I came out of that, and honestly, I was like, yes, like that. And I realized. I started to realize, like, this is actually what I've always really cared about. Like, I looked down this road, I pursued it down this road because I thought, okay, this is gonna happen. Down this road is the best way to do it. And it served me for a season.

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:40]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:17:41]:
And then kept going and going and going. It's like, okay, what I really care about Is being a part of stuff that transforms people's lives.

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:57]:
Right.

Brad Hill [00:17:58]:
People that want to. I don't have energy for people that don't, you know, and we're going. I hear you say you do. We'll see. You know, but they want to change their story. And so, yeah, I mean, it was. I mean, processing through anger with my dad. I mean, honestly, there's an exercise in there that you get to go there.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:39]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:18:40]:
Like, I got to go there and unleash it. Unleash the peace, so to speak.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:46]:
Right.

Brad Hill [00:18:46]:
And my dad. Is somebody playing. My dad is just there.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:51]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:18:53]:
And present and taking it and doing nothing. And there's like this wonderful confusion in my experience after real growth, there's like a moment for me where like, what. What just happened?

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:18]:
Sure.

Brad Hill [00:19:19]:
You know, and that's how I know it's like it's probably gonna take me like five years to like, this, you know, discern and like, put it all together, what that was. But. But that was something big, right? And. Yeah. And so the dominoes of that, I was. I mean, I stayed that church for another three, four years. Thankfully, they fired me. And it didn't feel like a gift when it happened.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:50]:
Right.

Brad Hill [00:19:51]:
Holy cow, was it a gift. I could have easily gone to another church. I was like, this. I don't think this is for me. You know, I'm not sure what I'm gonna do, but I don't. I don't want to put myself in a place that asks me to be something I know I'm not. Right. And so I'm just not gonna.

Brad Hill [00:20:18]:
And so, you know, started this coaching business as a 2008. I was like, wow, people pay you to. I mean, okay, they will pay me to basically, like, listen and give wisdom and perspective and tools.

Theresa Hubbard [00:20:40]:
Yes.

Brad Hill [00:20:42]:
And then. Oh, you know, Godspeed, God bless. No. Oh, great. Yes. Get some certification. Sure. Wrote a book, started a podcast, had multiple part time jobs, odd in jobs, et cetera.

Brad Hill [00:21:02]:
Now really started checking in on, okay, what do I actually believe in? Like, what is resonant with me in this chapter of my life.

Theresa Hubbard [00:21:13]:
Right.

Brad Hill [00:21:16]:
And I was like, man. And about that time, the founders of Heart Connection, who I grew very close to. Okay, they're now the grandparents to our kid or one of the grandparents. He's like, dude, you should volunteer. Actually, I think he asked me to be on the board. Okay, what do I have to do? And he's like. He told me, I was like, okay, sure. And I checked in.

Brad Hill [00:21:47]:
I was like, okay, yeah, I really believe in this. Like, I Like, I don't have to like Jedi mind trick myself to believe in it. Like, I like. Yes. And so started volunteering a ton. Like helping out build community. You know, 6,500 people from 38 states, seven countries have been through the immersives. Right.

Brad Hill [00:22:10]:
With our connection. And. And wow. Yes. And just neck deep into, you know, creating immersive, like exercises, tools, etc, Right. To help people flourish. You know what I tell people is like, man, water treading is not an Olympic sport. You know, you can be the best water treader in history.

Brad Hill [00:22:33]:
It just means it's going to take longer for you to die. That's all that means. Yeah, right. Like, where do you want to go?

Theresa Hubbard [00:22:41]:
Right?

Brad Hill [00:22:41]:
Slash grow.

Theresa Hubbard [00:22:42]:
Right, Right, right.

Brad Hill [00:22:44]:
And. And so, yeah, I mean, all these things start happening. And then I remember thinking, I was like, you know what? I want to do this. I love leadership. Love it. I love visionary leadership. Like, my entire life, I've seen things other people don't see. I see what could be.

Brad Hill [00:23:09]:
I know. You know, it's like, Look, I know 90% of people don't see this or think it's ridiculous. Cool. I don't. I don't need to prove them wrong. Right. I just know I'm gonna do it. So let's go.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:24]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:23:25]:
And. And so ask me if I wanted to. I was like, okay, I'm gonna create something that does this for people. Right. And then I remember telling the founders and they said, would you like to lead heart connection? It's like, wow. With decision making authority. And I was like, yeah, it's like, went back, checked in with Reagan. I was like, yeah, that's align.

Brad Hill [00:23:57]:
There's massive alignment. Let's go. Had a vision for it. And then it just, everything took off. And. And so that's what I did. Like, and I, I knew, well, I'll go down three paths and then whatever resonates with you guys, you can let me know. But I mean, started creating stuff, right.

Brad Hill [00:24:25]:
Saw a vision. Like, we're going to do this, we're going to do this, we're going to do this, we're going to do this. Let's do it together. It's way more fun together. Let's go.

Theresa Hubbard [00:24:33]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:24:33]:
We'll raise money, all the things. And was great. Covid hits. Okay.

Theresa Hubbard [00:24:42]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:24:42]:
And my job changed about a year into covet. I knew it. It's like, okay, we do in person immersive experiences. We can try to replicate it on zoom. It is not the same.

Theresa Hubbard [00:24:53]:
Right, Right.

Brad Hill [00:24:56]:
Let's just acknowledge it's not the same. You can do it, but there is no way it' the same.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:01]:
Right.

Brad Hill [00:25:01]:
Okay. And I'm not interested in pretending like it is.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:04]:
Right.

Brad Hill [00:25:06]:
And so I knew that I knew nine months into Covid, okay, My job just changed. It doesn't matter how I feel about it, okay. Like, my job just changed. And my job is to make sure we are still here when this is over. Yeah, that's my job. And. And so at the end of COVID we were. We took some hits for sure, but we heart connections still around.

Brad Hill [00:25:37]:
And I knew. It's like, okay. I kept. I kept waiting for, okay, well, I'll get a, like, vision of where we're going to go. And that never came. And I remember thinking, I was like, you know what? I could, like, come up with something and nobody would know, you know? And it's like, yeah, you would know. And I've done that before. And I'm like, man, like, I.

Brad Hill [00:26:05]:
I've. There's a cost to running red lights, right?

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:11]:
Sure.

Brad Hill [00:26:12]:
And I was like, no, I'm not doing that. And I was like, I just. I don't have vision for it. It is time to move on. It is time to shift. And was working with my therapist. She's. She's incredible.

Brad Hill [00:26:28]:
And she told me about. She's like, do you want to remove? I was like, yeah, I do. I do. She's like, here's what I think could happen. Here's what I think will happen. And short story long, what she said is exactly what happened. And so there were some hard things that happened in 2023, but none of them were surprising to me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:50]:
Okay.

Brad Hill [00:26:51]:
Because I mean, it's like, man, she literally, like, freaking Yoda. Like, do you know? I'm like, well, yeah, that's happened. That's happening right now. Crazy. And, yeah, just this internal knowing, this internal sense of time.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:09]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:27:10]:
You know, I think back on my time at the church, and I was like, I probably knew my wife quit going to the church two years before I got fired. She's like, I'm out. You know? I was like, well, future reference, like, she's like, I'd rather tend to my garden on Sunday mornings. I knew. I knew, but I wasn't in a place I wasn't willing to take the courageous step then aligned with what I knew. And this I knew. I was like, I'm now I know the way home here. And.

Brad Hill [00:27:53]:
And so, yeah, another path, I think is all aligned with, like, just kind of internal knowing. We did not want kids. Married Since July of 2000 we did not want kids. Like, you guys should have kids. You'd be great parents. Don't project your shit on me. Like, we did not want kids. We're good.

Brad Hill [00:28:13]:
And wife's a second grade teacher. Awesome. Okay. Six and a half years ago. Six and a half years ago, I remember her saying, how do you feel about having a kid? And I heard myself say, I think it'd be awesome. And immediately it's like a butthole tightening moment. I was like, oh my God, like what? And then I'm 48 now. So was that 42, 43.

Brad Hill [00:28:50]:
Then. Yeah. And then we have a little boy. And. Yeah. And just a sense, all those moments, like this is the way, like just an internal knowing. It's not void of anxiety, obviously. It's not void of challenge, obviously.

Brad Hill [00:29:23]:
In fact, it probably is going to have more. Right. Is it right for me right now?

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:32]:
Mm.

Brad Hill [00:29:35]:
Not. Is not hard. Right. Is it right for me right now? Yeah. Yes. Cool. Let's go. You know, and I love being a dad.

Brad Hill [00:29:54]:
Like today actually, I dropped him off. He's five. It's his last day of preschool.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:01]:
Oh, okay.

Brad Hill [00:30:03]:
Like, all the feelings and, and, and it just, all I think about that is like, you know, all these leveling up rites of passage in life that I have definitely run from. Right. But that is the way to create the life I really want. And there is, I believe there's like an incident, deep internal sense of what I really want and making choices that are aligned with that. Creating space in my life to hear that, trusting people that know and want that for me. Right. Yeah. So I'm a dad to a five year old kid.

Brad Hill [00:30:58]:
I stepped away from amazing job. And I am, I feel like I'm very aligned with my values. I didn't really think deeply about that before. Like, what I value most in this season of my life is number one, I want my family to flourish, not just tread water. And I'm a part of the family, so I'm including me emotionally, spiritually, physically, all of it. And number two is I want to be a part of shit that helps people that want to, to flourish, that want to. Right. And so that's, that's what I'm doing.

Brad Hill [00:31:59]:
That's what I'm doing. Like I'm, I've, I've got a job. I work 25, 30 hours a week right now. I love. It's a new arena. It's mostly sales stuff. I'm building a business, like actually building a business that I wanted to do when I stepped away from our Connection called the Way Home. Okay.

Brad Hill [00:32:17]:
The Way Home. Coaching, consulting, and immersives. So we do immersives. Come to us. Immersives. I do coaching, but what we also do is, like, tailoring immersives for people and businesses. So 176 tools and exercises. I'm going to sit with you, going to listen to.

Brad Hill [00:32:34]:
To you. Okay. This is what you suck at. You probably hopefully know as a leader, if you don't, you probably shouldn't be the leader. And. And this is what you're great at. And if I can create an experience that helps you get great at what you suck at, then I think you're gonna flourish, you know? So, yeah. And this is new.

Brad Hill [00:33:03]:
Okay.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:04]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:33:07]:
I was in Salina for work month and a half ago. Okay. There's a podcast I'm. I'm really digging. This guy named Jason Wilson right now is a therapist. African American dude. Does amazing work with, like, inner city kids in Detroit and uses mixed martial arts. Okay.

Brad Hill [00:33:27]:
To do this. And as a podcast, I'd set to listen to. And driving back from Solana one Sunday morning, I'm listening to it, and he's talking about his stuff with his dad. Right. I'm like, okay, I didn't think about it. And he's on this, on this all smoke podcast, writes two retired NBA guys, and he's talking about abuse experience with his dad and how real healing is finding a way to forgive them. And I don't mean, like the forgive and forget bullshit. I mean, like, fully, I am forgiving you for this thing.

Brad Hill [00:34:28]:
Right. I'm acknowledging this thing. I'm acknowledging this moment. I'm acknowledging this reality. I am choosing to forgive you for that. Right. For me. Right, Right.

Walker Bird [00:34:48]:
Right.

Brad Hill [00:34:48]:
I'm not. I don't, you know, cool if it helps you. Right. And I'm driving and he's talking about stuff with his dad. And I remember he's like. He was saying. He's like. I remember thinking, when's the last time I cried? And I'm listening to it and I'm thinking, yeah, like, when's the last time that I just, like, let that emotion and tears come out, you know?

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:26]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:35:28]:
And then I hear him saying that his dad had Parkinson's. It's in the nursing home. And he goes to see him after everything. I mean, it's like decades of abuse. And he's there taking care of him. And he's like, I'm walking out and he says, I feel God. Tell me to go back in there and say to him, you weren't the dad I wanted, but you were the dad I needed. And I'm listening to this.

Brad Hill [00:36:11]:
I'm literally listening, and I'm like, here it comes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:36:16]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:36:19]:
It's like. And I just let it happen. I let the wave hit the. Hit the beach. And I felt this sense, this internal, knowing voice. Like, you need to tell your dad that today. It's like, okay. And literally driving from Salina, there's, like, this little town called Cottonwood Falls that I love.

Brad Hill [00:36:59]:
Like, driving past all this a mess, whatever that means. Beautiful, actually. And. And I did. I was like, hey, dad. And I knew. I was like, okay. You know, he's probably gonna be in church, so I want.

Brad Hill [00:37:18]:
I want to leave him a message that he can save this. Okay? And so I did. And, like, honestly, it took me, like, 30 seconds just to be able to say something, like, just sobbing and. Yeah. And then afterwards, you know, it's like pure oxygen you're breathing, you know, like, there's that confusion and stuff. It's like, what. What was that? Like, what's happening? You know? And what I noticed was when I listened to him share about his encounter with his dad, and tears started coming immediately, like, resistance cynically pops up.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:17]:
Sure.

Brad Hill [00:38:17]:
It's like, you've done this work. Come on, now. Like, you've. Who care? Like, just who cares? And then I thought, thankfully, cool. You've done this work. Who cares? Easy. Just go ahead and do it. And the cave you fear holds the treasure you seek.

Brad Hill [00:38:41]:
I was like, this is for sure. Like, I just say this, like, if you're stuck. If you're stuck and you experience yourself being super cynical or sarcastic about something, I will bet my bank account that that is the way home for you. That is 100% been the way for me. And I told Dad. I was like, you know, you weren't the dad I wanted, but you were the dad I needed. And I want you to know I know you regret not being present for substantial moments in my life. I know you do.

Brad Hill [00:39:27]:
I want you to know I forgive you. Like, you don't owe me anymore. And not just that, but there was a season in my life where I would have said that. And then if I'd have found out, the next day, he won the lottery, and he called me. He had no idea. Like, hey, you know, I won the lottery. I would have said to him, oh, that's awesome. And inside, I'm like, holy shit.

Brad Hill [00:40:00]:
How unjust is this? That's what I would have done personally. Sure. And that's not the way home either.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:09]:
Right.

Brad Hill [00:40:11]:
And so. So, yeah, I'm. I am learning to love myself and others. Well, that's what I'm learning to do. So.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:30]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that.

Brad Hill [00:40:33]:
Yeah. So that's. That's. That's a little bit.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:37]:
So I would say that's resonant. Learning to love ourselves and others. Well, yeah.

Brad Hill [00:40:47]:
Yeah. I. I was in a session with my counselor one time, and it was the second session that I remember, and she said, so I played sports in high school. I wasn't the greatest at many of them, but some of them I was. I love playing tennis. Like, I was actually pretty good at tennis. And she's like, you know when people would talk shit to you? I was like, oh, yeah, I loved it. She's like, it never bothered you, did it? I was like, no.

Brad Hill [00:41:29]:
She's like, do you want to know why? I was like, yes, yes. She's like, because nobody's saying anything nearly as bad as what you're saying to yourself. I was like, damn, that's true.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:53]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:41:54]:
And she said, you not only need to let yourself off the hook, but you just need to know there's no hook. And I lost it. And I just don't know anyone that is suffering from a judgment deficit in their life. I don't know anybody's like, you know what? You need some more judgment in your life. That's what's missing here. You know, I don't know anyone. Almost everyone I know is suffering from a loving kindness. Grace.

Brad Hill [00:42:40]:
Grace. Deficit. And yet I have bought the idea that what's going to solve this is some more judgment, you know, for myself and others and.

Theresa Hubbard [00:43:00]:
Right.

Brad Hill [00:43:01]:
And that plays out in leadership, and that plays out in family. That plays out in raising the kid. That plays out in so many freaking ways.

Theresa Hubbard [00:43:08]:
Right.

Brad Hill [00:43:09]:
And it's like, the evidence. Need evidence. Here's the evidence.

Theresa Hubbard [00:43:14]:
Right.

Brad Hill [00:43:15]:
Not one time has this worked. Yeah, this will be the one. You know, it didn't work for your dad. It didn't work for his dad. You know what I mean? Like, on and on. Like, what do you need? You need to risk vulnerability to go here.

Theresa Hubbard [00:43:33]:
Mm.

Brad Hill [00:43:35]:
And I get to choose that. And, yeah.

Walker Bird [00:43:39]:
So, yeah, the judgment piece is interesting to me because it's where it comes up for me all the time, and I'll notice it, and I'll say, oh, judging mind. You know, the Buddhist approach.

Brad Hill [00:43:52]:
And.

Walker Bird [00:43:54]:
But while you were talking about it, I realized what I'm also doing is, you know, because it's like there's. I think I'm missing a step, and this would be like, you're talking about when cynicism comes up. Judgment's the same for me. And I think the step may be. And I want to throw this at you to see what you think. That in a way, when I'm recognizing it, then I'm saying, well, I shouldn't be doing that to myself, and I'm not. Then further examining the dark cave is what I would call what's inside judgment.

Brad Hill [00:44:26]:
Enough.

Walker Bird [00:44:27]:
I'm just saying, well, I should. You know, I don't want to be that way, so I don't want to trap this inside. But I'm not really asking. The next question is, well, you know, what is driving versus judgment? Exactly.

Brad Hill [00:44:38]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:44:39]:
So how do you get people on that next step?

Brad Hill [00:44:43]:
I mean, I can tell you, for me, sometimes it's just that it's just been around people that will acknowledge that and ask those questions. My experience as well is when I'm in. You cannot hear what you want acknowledge. Right, right. And so when I'm in an immersive scenario, communal experience, whatever, and I get to see the cost of this. That makes sense. Like, I get to see the cost of this. I say the cost of this.

Brad Hill [00:45:30]:
I mean, if there's not a cost, I'm probably not changing. Right, right. But when I get to see it and feel it and acknowledge it, it's like, oh, my God. Okay, enormous cost. I mean, what's the cost of me not looking at my hurt with my dad? Well, it is not loving my wife. Well, you know, direct line. Not loving myself. Well, being okay.

Brad Hill [00:46:16]:
And strangely connected to people that don't either want to or know how to love me. Well, you know, like, what am I. What am I doing? Why don't I keep going back to this when I know that's the cost? It's like, damn. Okay. I just think, in my experience, I think that a lot of folks just don't connect the dots. Like, they don't have people in their lives that could say, hey, you know, this is because of this. You know what I mean? And I'm lucky enough to have those people. I mean, yeah, I don't know if that's helpful, but, like, no, I think it's good.

Brad Hill [00:47:12]:
That's. That is at least for me, when I've had people that love me enough to tell me the truth and say, hey, this. You. Do you know what the cost of this is? You know? No. Okay, well, I just want to share.

Theresa Hubbard [00:47:29]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:47:29]:
You know, I mean, we. I easily do that. If it's like, financial stuff, you know, it's like, okay, well, do you know, I mean, you're paying 40,000 bucks for a 80 early 90s truck that has 190,000 miles on it that had a transmission replaced. Do you know that? Do you know what this, you know this is gonna be? Yeah, I don't care. Okay, well, you don't. You don't care about. You got it? Cool. Why? And you know.

Brad Hill [00:48:13]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:48:15]:
So you said something else too. There's multiple things that have caught my. My interest. But when your therapist told you why you weren't.

Brad Hill [00:48:27]:
Her view.

Theresa Hubbard [00:48:27]:
Why.

Walker Bird [00:48:28]:
Or why you weren't responding or reactive to when people would talk smack and talk.

Brad Hill [00:48:34]:
Yeah, yeah.

Walker Bird [00:48:36]:
And you said, she's like, as you're saying worse things to yourself. You need to learn to let yourself off the hook. And. And here's the part that really fascinated me. You need to learn that there is no hook.

Brad Hill [00:48:46]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:48:46]:
What does that mean to you now?

Brad Hill [00:48:56]:
That I'm playing a game that doesn't exist. That, like, I insisted on it. You know what I mean? Like, I insisted on playing a game that does not exist. No one else is playing that game for me. I am the one that's like, I insist on being punished more. Well, nobody else wants to. I don't care. You know, why? Why? And one of there's a.

Brad Hill [00:49:33]:
There is a exercise in breakthrough in the seminars and we'll do it. Seminars Working to build. I was talking to a friend about this today. So it's ironic, but you'd have your name tag, right? Your name, you know, and then there's a moment where that name tag gets taken away and the people that are part of your journey give you a name tag, right? They give you one. And there's a lot of them. There's judge, jury, executioner. There's mad as hell. There's a lot of them.

Brad Hill [00:50:15]:
And the idea is that this is who you actually think you are. And it's also where you are stuck, probably. And if you aren't, you can get stuck there. I can tell you exactly what my name tag was. My name tag was almost dot, dot, dot, dot, Never enough. It's like, you know, keep trying though. I mean, you're almost there. It will never be enough.

Brad Hill [00:50:48]:
I will never be enough. And who gets to find enough God, you know, who is defining enoughness? And when do I get there and do I have any evidence of anyone actually getting there? And does this work? Is this working for anybody? You know, and no. And it's quitting that game. It's like, okay, well, I can. You know, who's going to tell me? Give me something else to be enough about. Okay. Or, you know what? You're almost there. Like, you can just celebrate a little bit.

Brad Hill [00:51:37]:
Right now, I feel pretty good. But then the next day somebody else is. You know what I mean? Or just hear me on this. An option is you could quit all together and leave the room. You do not have to play this game. Like, you know what I mean? Like, really? Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:52:07]:
What does leaving the room look like for you?

Brad Hill [00:52:10]:
I'm not going to participate in this. Right. And not only am I not participating, I'll just say this. When you get. When I got. When you get that awareness and that clarity, just know that you have built relationships of people that are cool with that. You know what I mean? Like, they're cool with it. And so if you decide you're not playing a game that they're comfortable playing, don't expect them to be okay with it.

Brad Hill [00:52:43]:
You know? They're not going to be okay with it. And if I expect them to, I'm going to be disappointed if I don't expect them to. I'm like, this is exactly. Yeah, that's right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:54]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:52:55]:
And it's telling because, hard truth, they actually don't love you. Well. And it's because they either don't know how or. Or because they don't, you know, And. But what I found is there are people who do and are. And they are right there. And interestingly, I would push them away, you know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:35]:
Sure.

Brad Hill [00:53:35]:
They're right there.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:36]:
Right.

Brad Hill [00:53:37]:
And not anymore. Lean into them, you know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:43]:
Yeah. They weren't playing. So we push them away because they're not playing the game.

Brad Hill [00:53:48]:
Yes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:48]:
Yes. Yeah. I think about, you know, often, you know, with couples in the. I learned a game in my family. You learned a game in your family? You learned a game in your family. Right. And so we're in a couple now. I'm playing my game, you're playing your game.

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:11]:
We're not playing the same game. But we want you to play because it's what we know.

Brad Hill [00:54:15]:
Right. We're supposed to.

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:16]:
We're supposed to. Right.

Brad Hill [00:54:18]:
We should.

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:18]:
And then we get mad. Right. But we don't think about it like that. That we're playing a game. Right.

Brad Hill [00:54:26]:
Yep. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:27]:
And it can be so frustrating. Right. So it's like, okay, however you want to, whatever you want to call it. Right. What the. A trauma dance or whatever, trigger, whatever. But we are. We are in a pattern that is familiar because we spent 18 years approximately, learning the rules.

Brad Hill [00:54:51]:
Yes. Right. This is. This is how I be.

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:56]:
Mm.

Brad Hill [00:54:56]:
Is how I have to be, you know?

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:59]:
Yeah. And even with ourselves. Right. Doesn't have to be a game. I mean, I was bringing up relationally, but with ourself. Right. Because we witness our parents. We did an episode where.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:12]:
Oh, shoot, do you call yourself names? Right. And how. How we often pick up habits that our parents did, you know, that demonstrated their lack of self worth, and then they just became a part of how we engage with ourself. Right?

Brad Hill [00:55:29]:
Yes, man.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:31]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:55:32]:
Yeah. I've seen that a few times with my kid, and it's like, it catches me, and I'm like, okay. And I don't even. I didn't even know I was doing that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:45]:
Right.

Brad Hill [00:55:45]:
You know?

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:45]:
Right.

Brad Hill [00:55:46]:
And he's saying it to himself.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:48]:
Right.

Brad Hill [00:55:49]:
I'm like, who. I'm not okay with that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:53]:
Right.

Brad Hill [00:55:55]:
You know?

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:55]:
Right.

Brad Hill [00:55:55]:
I'm not okay with that. And. And so what am I gonna do about it? You know? And so. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:03]:
Well, you have choice, right?

Brad Hill [00:56:05]:
I do.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:06]:
Do you get mad about it? Do you avoid it? Do you increase awareness process? Find a different way?

Brad Hill [00:56:15]:
Yeah. Be gracious. Right?

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:18]:
Right.

Brad Hill [00:56:19]:
I'm learning to choose that more. I'm learning to. Yeah, for sure. Be graceful. Him. I'm like, hey, man. Like, I'm. I mean, I'm not okay with you saying that to yourself, you know?

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:36]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:56:37]:
And he's like, oh, okay. You know? But why do you learn by watching you? Like, I learned by watching you is like, yeah. And I've been okay with this. Why am I okay with this? You know? And. And, yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:56]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:56:58]:
Finding those moments of learning, though, especially around our children or the ones that we want to love.

Brad Hill [00:57:04]:
Well, mirrors, man. It's.

Walker Bird [00:57:07]:
It's a gift. It's sometimes hard when we spot it, but what a gift and an opportunity, right, to keep. Keep moving in the right direction or a better direction.

Brad Hill [00:57:17]:
Yeah. 100%. 100%. So, yeah, that's a bit of my story.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:25]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [00:57:27]:
I love it. Like, I love what I'm doing right now in life. I love where I feel my life is growing to. I love. Can help my leaders, for sure, but, like, just people I want to grow in general. And there's a grit that comes. Like an emotional grit that comes with going into that cave again and again and again. Because I.

Brad Hill [00:58:00]:
My experience is, once I've done it, I know it's worth it. Doesn't make. In my experience, it doesn't make it any less terrifying or scary or any of that, but, I mean, it's worth it. It's going to be worth it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:58:21]:
Absolutely.

Brad Hill [00:58:22]:
You know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:58:22]:
Yeah. I think it's often difficult for us to believe that there's more freedom on the other side of this work.

Brad Hill [00:58:33]:
Yes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:58:34]:
But I, I mean, what I've seen with people over the years, not just myself, is that at some point, if you keep stepping in, you're like, I know it's there. I may not be able to see it right now, but I do know it's there.

Brad Hill [00:58:50]:
There is a, I, I can't come up with a better word other than just faith and that, you know, I can't, I can't come up with a better word than like, I do have my experience and I have the experience of other people and I'm here and I'm scared as hell. Okay. And I know that's the way. Okay. Yeah, I'm gonna go, you know, like, let's do it. And, and yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:59:26]:
Yeah. Just a few things, Brad, before we wrap up. Time always goes by so fast. What do you feel like when at the beginning today you mentioned, you know, like your inner tuning fork. How do you access that today? What does it feel like for you? And when it's harder to get clear, what do you do to help yourself get back?

Brad Hill [00:59:55]:
One? I have people in my life that are closest to me that know that tuning fork in me. So literally, literally I have, I call my Brad Hill board. Like I have the bhb, right. And, and these are people I trust. They know the way home. It's not theory to them. Right. They are doing this.

Brad Hill [01:00:20]:
And, and so I asked them, you know, hey, I'm thinking about this or I'm wrestling with this and I really want feedback. I want your feedback. And really close friends, same thing. Like they're doing this in their life. So that's the first thing comes to my mind for me personally, I, I, there's a place I go to. Okay. My favorite place on earth is North Shore, Oahu, Hawaii by the way. So like that's awesome.

Brad Hill [01:00:51]:
But around here in Kansas, there's a place that I go to that is like I, I get excited when I know I'm going there because I know it is going to be adventurous. Shalom. Right? And there's a place called Cottonwood Falls, Kansas. There's like some hiking areas that are people don't know about for whatever reason. There's literally like a five layer waterfall in Kansas.

Theresa Hubbard [01:01:21]:
Wow.

Brad Hill [01:01:22]:
And for me that gives me a ton of clarity. Like I was like, okay. And when I'm out there, you know, a day or two Days. I just get into it, and whatever pops up, I take notes on it.

Theresa Hubbard [01:01:39]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [01:01:39]:
You know? Yeah. So, yeah, that works for me. But, like, something to get out of the. This rhythm that is not working for me.

Theresa Hubbard [01:01:49]:
Right.

Brad Hill [01:01:49]:
You know.

Theresa Hubbard [01:01:50]:
Right.

Brad Hill [01:01:51]:
I've been skydiving. That's helped sometimes, man. Whatever it is, to, like, get out of my kind of monkey mind. Right. And it involves. There are. I do think there are times where it's important to do things that get you out of your box, to help you realize that the reason that you are where you are in your life is because you've jumped.

Theresa Hubbard [01:02:20]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [01:02:21]:
You took a risk. The relationships that matter most happen because I took a risk. We decided to have a kid. I moved. You know what I mean? It's like, all of it, if I just look at it. So it's good for me to put myself in a situation where I can get outside of that box, and I'm going to find that I'm going to get clarity for the stuff that really matters when I take a risk in this space. Does that make sense?

Theresa Hubbard [01:02:47]:
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And then. Last question. You've mentioned Joseph Campbell's work several times. Are there other people that you have referenced that you feel like are a good lighthouse for you?

Brad Hill [01:03:01]:
Yep. Well, I love. I mean, I guess, like a mentor to me. And he's on my board, this guy named Paul Young, a book called the Shack, like, years ago. He is. I've. He's awesome. Love him.

Brad Hill [01:03:17]:
Steven Pressfield, the War of Art. I read that book. I read it literally every year. Anytime I'm feeling stuck, I read it. Sometimes it's important to know the fight you're in.

Theresa Hubbard [01:03:28]:
Absolutely.

Brad Hill [01:03:29]:
Like, resistance is a thing.

Theresa Hubbard [01:03:31]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [01:03:32]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [01:03:32]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [01:03:33]:
It does not care about you. Right. It does not care. Does not care how you feel. It's there. It's a thing, and that is it. It's helpful to know something that personifies it, you know?

Theresa Hubbard [01:03:47]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [01:03:47]:
That's helpful for me. Yeah. And. And I just think, like, a really good space with a really connected friend is, I think, highly underrated.

Theresa Hubbard [01:04:00]:
I agree.

Brad Hill [01:04:01]:
Like, I'm all about fire pits in the backyard. And let's just. Let's go. Let's talk, you know, so. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [01:04:08]:
Yeah, us too.

Brad Hill [01:04:10]:
Awesome.

Theresa Hubbard [01:04:10]:
Yeah. Thanks, Brad.

Walker Bird [01:04:11]:
Thank you so much. I had about 100 more questions.

Brad Hill [01:04:14]:
Okay.

Walker Bird [01:04:15]:
We'll have to do that for round two.

Brad Hill [01:04:18]:
I was gonna say.

Theresa Hubbard [01:04:18]:
Yeah.

Brad Hill [01:04:19]:
Okay.

Theresa Hubbard [01:04:19]:
Or lunch or. Yeah.

Brad Hill [01:04:22]:
So thank you. I'm up for all of it. Yeah. Appreciate it.

Theresa Hubbard [01:04:25]:
Yeah. Thank you. We wanted to take a moment to encourage you to take the 10 Essential Skills to Build Stronger and Healthier Relationship course.

Walker Bird [01:04:37]:
We've all heard it said that when you get to the end of your life, you're not looking back at the money that you made or the things that you had, but at the relationships that you had with your children, your family, your friends and your co workers. We hope you'll join us.

Theresa Hubbard [01:04:51]:
Yeah. We truly believe it is worth the effort. Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth and we strive to be more compassionate every day.