Why We Perform in Relationships
Theresa Hubbard and Walker Bird
What if the safety you feel isn’t real—but a role you’re playing? In this reflective and honest conversation, Theresa and Walker explore how self worth, safety, and identity intersect in relationships at work, at home, and within ourselves.
They unpack how the roles we adopt—especially in professional or intimate settings—can protect us, but also keep us from feeling truly seen. This episode invites you to examine the masks you wear, the stories you tell yourself, and how increased awareness can lead to a more authentic and aligned connection.
What You’ll Learn
- How performative behaviors shape our relationships
- Why “feeling safe” can sometimes be a false sense of security
- What congruence and authenticity actually look like in everyday life
Episode Links & Resources
Mandy Froehlich website
EMERGE – Soul Purpose Branding
Take the Relationship Assessment
Join us in the 10 Essential Skills to Build Stronger and Healthier Relationships course
Watch the episode on YouTube
Softening Into Courage Meditation
Release & Integration Meditation
My Inner Knowing Full episode link
My Inner Knowing website
My Inner Knowing Facebook
My Inner Knowing Instagram
My Inner Knowing LinkedIn
Sign up for the My Inner Knowing newsletter
✨ Subscribe and share the episode with someone ready to remember who they are
Spotify Chapters
00:00 Welcome + Setting the Stage
02:05 Why We Feel Safer in Some Roles
10:17 How Intimacy Can Feel Less Safe
16:13 The Cost of Performing at Work
30:02 Clothing, Congruence, and Intentionality
46:48 Final Reflections on Self-Worth
Keywords
self worth, emotional safety, authentic relationships, performative behavior, identity in relationships, congruence
Episode Transcript
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:00]:
We wanted to take a moment to encourage you to take the 10 Essential Skills to Build Stronger and Healthier Relationship course.
Walker Bird [00:00:09]:
We've all heard it said that when you get to the end of your life, you're not looking back at the money that you made or the things that you had, but at the relationships that you had with your children, your family, your friends, and your co workers. We hope you'll join us.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:24]:
Yeah. We truly believe it is worth the effort.
Walker Bird [00:00:32]:
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life. Each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:01]:
Well, hello.
Walker Bird [00:01:01]:
Hi there.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:04]:
How are you?
Walker Bird [00:01:06]:
A little on edge.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:07]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Walker Bird [00:01:09]:
There's a lot of work to try to get done before we leave town. Yeah, that's my. What I want to do. I don't want to be working while we're traveling.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:17]:
Yeah, yeah. Agreed. A very minimal amount.
Walker Bird [00:01:22]:
So. Yeah, just, you know, struggling to get focused.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:25]:
Yeah. Okay.
Walker Bird [00:01:26]:
Yeah. Well, how are you?
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:29]:
I'm okay. Yeah. Yeah. There is a lot to do before we go, so trying to. And it will all be just fine. Yeah. But wanting it to go well, the trip, for it to be smooth. Right.
Walker Bird [00:01:47]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:48]:
So. So what I was. What was on my mind this morning that I thought would be an interesting conversation?
Walker Bird [00:01:55]:
You've been thinking.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:56]:
I've been thinking. I've been thinking about what do we tell ourselves that creates safety for us in relationship? So I'm just. I'm going to try to figure out how to say this as succinctly as possible. I believe sometimes that we feel safer in certain relationships, but I think that sometimes we might feel safer because we're actually performing. What I'm curious about is I think in our intimate relationships, we can feel less safe. And I think sometimes we are for sure. So it's not about that, but I think we can feel less safe in our relationships because maybe we aren't performing. What do you think? Are you like.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:18]:
What are you talking about?
Walker Bird [00:03:21]:
I don't know. I don't. The intimate relationships thing came in and I just. There was a disconnect for me there.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:29]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:03:29]:
You know, when you were like, but we're probably not. But do we feel safer when we're not performing or vice versa? So you got to try again. Come in another direction here.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:39]:
Okay, so how about to be more Specific.
Walker Bird [00:03:43]:
Oh, okay.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:44]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:03:45]:
You have an agenda.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:50]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:03:50]:
You have an idea.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:51]:
I do. I have an idea. So, for example, I think sometimes we might feel safer in our relationships at work. Maybe we have friends there that we feel like are safer because we don't either have a lot of negative interactions or even maybe not much interaction, but it's not contentious, so it feels safer. But oftentimes in those environments, there's a role that we're playing as opposed to showing those people at work, all of ourselves. So is the safety that we may feel around other people real, or is it really because they don't know who we are?
Walker Bird [00:04:57]:
They know parts of us.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:58]:
Parts of us. Right.
Walker Bird [00:04:59]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:00]:
And then we may have a harder time in our home feeling seen, loved, heard, understood. And that may be true, but could it be because at home we're playing less of a role and more of who we are without the role is showing, and that makes the people around us more uncomfortable. And so maybe there's more. Maybe there's more tension or frustration in our more intimate relationships because there's less role playing.
Walker Bird [00:05:49]:
Fascinating.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:51]:
Just curious. What do you think?
Walker Bird [00:05:55]:
What do you do?
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:00]:
I want to know what you're thinking, and then I'll tell you.
Walker Bird [00:06:04]:
I immediately want to test your hypothesis. Oh, really? Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:08]:
Okay, go ahead.
Walker Bird [00:06:10]:
I mean, what was going through my mind is for us to reveal more and to be in less of a role so that more of our parts are seen or more parts of us are seen anyway. You know what I'm saying? Different aspects of the truth about ourselves. Right. Don't we have to have a higher level of safety before we start to reveal those anyway? And that comes with intimate relationships?
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:40]:
Sometimes, I believe so.
Walker Bird [00:06:43]:
Okay.
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:43]:
What I think about is. And I don't actually know the technical term or maybe the most accepted term in family therapy, but when I was younger in my career, we would call a certain phenomenon a flip flop. And so something that was endearing about you when we were newer in relationship then becomes one of the most frustrating things. And so. And the reason that might be most of the time. I'm not saying all the time. Some people's behaviors can escalate into ways that are. That are unhealthy and unsafe.
Theresa Hubbard [00:07:31]:
But really the belief behind that was. Was that we changed the value of that behavior. Like, my what? So you may not. You may have been, for example, like a jokester, right? Like, oh, he's so funny. And now it's like, ugh, he's so irritating. So they would call that the flip flop. Like, Your behavior may actually be the same, but I've decided that I don't like it anymore. And so what I'm doing, looking at is really how do we value what's really happening in our relationship, is what I'm talking about.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:13]:
And so, you know, is there, like, a perceived safety that we have around people who don't know us and we think it's safer because it really isn't very challenging and they don't really know us because we're really playing a role versus at home. It's more uncomfortable and more stressful, but I'm not playing much of a role there. But I think. I think being at home is harder, but maybe it's just because we're playing less of a role as opposed to it being less safe. So for me, what I'm coming at is how do we value those things? I think we. We often don't look at things very deeply. It's more surface. And if we.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:54]:
We come up with a reason in our mind, that seems to make sense. And that's true, but we may not test it out. So for me, it is about how are we valuing what's actually happening in our relationship? Are we being curious?
Walker Bird [00:09:18]:
Well, I think it's easy to get in patterns with your intimate partner.
Theresa Hubbard [00:09:23]:
Yes. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:09:24]:
Okay. And then I. So that can happen. And I think curiosity is the antidote to that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:09:33]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:09:33]:
Doing a podcast together is an antidote to that as well.
Theresa Hubbard [00:09:36]:
But it has been for us.
Walker Bird [00:09:38]:
It has. No, it's. I'm kind of. There's. It seems like there's more than one issue going on. But coming back to the. The safety piece, you know, there's a lot more of us out there at home than there is in other places. You know what I'm saying? I mean, you know more about me than many other people ever will, even though you don't know at all, I'm sure.
Walker Bird [00:10:05]:
Right. And I feel safe enough, you know, to be able to do that. But it's. It's an interesting. It cuts both ways, I guess, is what I would say.
Theresa Hubbard [00:10:22]:
Tell me more.
Walker Bird [00:10:23]:
When you are that vulnerable, it can feel unsafe just because it can feel potentially dangerous. Like, as in, I could lose this relationship. Especially if the pattern that you've had in the past or behavior like you're saying that used to be endearing to your partner now just irritates your partner and that, you know, it's. That's heartbreaking to contemplate something that they thought was so cute or just a quirk in your Personality that was fun, and now you're being judged by it. Now all of a sudden, what felt safe doesn't feel safe anymore, depending on how the partner who's flip flopped presents it. Right. At the same time, I think we have to hold in mind that we're all changing. And so, you know, to soften the blow of that, you know, it just depends on how.
Walker Bird [00:11:26]:
It's for how you're interacting, really. You know, if you start treating me with disdain because, I don't know, I, like, shake my booty at you, you know, something like that. And all of a sudden you're like, God, you know, that's going to hurt my feelings. If all of a sudden you're like, would you stop it?
Theresa Hubbard [00:11:47]:
Yeah, that won't happen.
Walker Bird [00:11:49]:
But it can.
Theresa Hubbard [00:11:51]:
It could. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:11:52]:
Yeah. So I. I don't know if I'm fathoming your depths yet, but those are at least initial reactions to the topic. What are you thinking?
Theresa Hubbard [00:12:12]:
Hmm. I think we are often disappointed relationally because I do think that, you know, I know that I have talked about this before on a different podcast episode, but I remember this client, years, years, years ago, talked about how the first six months of a relationship, someone only gets my representative.
Walker Bird [00:12:45]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:12:46]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:12:46]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:12:47]:
Surprise. Right. Right. You know, and I. And I think that is common because I do think it goes to the fear of abandonment, you know, peace that we have. And so I need to play this role that I've been taught, or I need to play a role that I feel like society is telling me I have to play. I don't think many of us show up just being who we are. And I've seen reels out there where people.
Theresa Hubbard [00:13:28]:
They're not being who they are, but they're playing, like, the opposite role. Right. Because they're like, can I. If I'm. If I freak this person out at the beginning, then I don't want them to stay. Right. So they. They.
Theresa Hubbard [00:13:43]:
They're testing. Right. So we can have different ways of testing. What I'm curious about is, can we. Can we practice being more authentic in all of our relationships so that we're more consistent no matter the setting? And I instantly think of. I'm not, like, talking about burp being and farting at the office in front of everybody. I'm not talking about that.
Walker Bird [00:14:20]:
That's not me.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:21]:
I know. I know, but I do. I do know other people other than you. Right. You were not who came to mind when I was thinking about that. But I. That's not. That's not what I'M talking about.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:46]:
What I'm talking about again is how do we value the people in our relationship at the same time, holding the lens in regards to is, is this relationship that feels good real because they know who I am, or does this relationship feel good because they don't know who I am? What are you thinking?
Walker Bird [00:15:23]:
I think it would be best if every day, in every way, we could be our most authentic self.
Theresa Hubbard [00:15:30]:
Yes.
Walker Bird [00:15:32]:
I don't know, however, that that's practical for the work setting. For example, you know, get in work and then if you want to socialize, go socialize.
Theresa Hubbard [00:15:46]:
Yeah, I don't think about it like that. I mean, I think. I'm not. I don't want the people in my office to perform. Right, right.
Walker Bird [00:15:54]:
Agreeing.
Theresa Hubbard [00:15:54]:
Right. I mean, I want them to be who they are and I want people to come in and do their work and go home and. And so I want. I mean, can't it be both? Can't we. Can't we be who we are and still focus on work?
Walker Bird [00:16:13]:
I think we can.
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:14]:
Okay, tell me more.
Walker Bird [00:16:17]:
Well, if you were just doing your thing, right. Without putting on airs or speaking in a different voice, because I know people in the law business that use a different voice when they're on the job. And I'm like, are you kidding?
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:33]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:16:33]:
But they do. All of a sudden, the radio comes out. Wow, this is craz.
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:38]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:16:39]:
Yeah. You know, I don't need that. But it's human. It's just human.
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:46]:
But performative. Performative, because we feel like it is best that we play a role in this situation.
Walker Bird [00:16:57]:
Let me ask you this. What's the difference between being performative and getting your work mind on putting on your work coat.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:07]:
Oh, man. Okay, let me think.
Walker Bird [00:17:12]:
Because I'm a very different person as a lawyer than I am when I'm not.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:19]:
Yeah, but you've been working on those being more congruent.
Walker Bird [00:17:22]:
Oh, I have. I'm a much nicer lawyer than I used to be.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:25]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:17:26]:
But I'm still different. And it's just because of what I do.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:30]:
Right. And the role that you feel like you need to play in those situations.
Walker Bird [00:17:40]:
Yeah. I think I'm just trying to analyze as we go, but I think if we look at that transformation for me, and it's not complete. I don't know that it ever would be complete. But I think I'm a strong person, but I don't think that my nature is combative. I can be aggressive in certain circumstances and do the warrior, all those things. I can be that when it's needed. But I used to think it was needed all the time.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:22]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:18:23]:
And my experience in changing that role or the degree of that role has been a positive experience. I think that I'm more. It's less stressful to work with opposing attorneys. And I can still hold boundaries, though, because it's critical with what I do. Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:46]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:18:48]:
But there's a. Just. Just a different degree, I think, a different way of approaching it. I can still have a boundary and not be an ass.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:57]:
Right. Just.
Walker Bird [00:18:59]:
Sorry, I'm not doing that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:00]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:19:00]:
Versus fu.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:03]:
Right. Right.
Walker Bird [00:19:04]:
Or I will not compromise on anything.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:07]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:19:08]:
You know, and also, it just. When you bring your own energy, whatever your nature may be, I just think the universe is more able to allow things to flow to you than when you have a role that carries an energy that is not congruent with your essence. And, you know, I struggle with my essence and being a trial lawyer, but the more congruent that is has become, the more success I've had with settlements, settlement amounts, jury verdicts, being able to walk through each day without despising everything I do.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:01]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:20:02]:
Or what everybody else does, too.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:04]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:20:06]:
So I don't know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:08]:
I think about when. When I was young and I stepped into the corporate world young. When I was 18, I got, you know, a job at a law firm. I was going to be a lawyer. We. Our offices were on the. The top floor of the tallest building in Kansas City. Right.
Walker Bird [00:20:31]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:31]:
I mean, 18, I was big time.
Walker Bird [00:20:33]:
Oh, yeah. I would have thought I was big time, too.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:37]:
And what I know is that. What I know is that in order to have done that, because that was not a part of my upbringing at all. Right. Like that it was. Yes. So unfamiliar to me.
Walker Bird [00:20:53]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:54]:
That I was playing a role. Right. And I mean, I can clearly remember, like, even getting ready for work and looking at myself in the mirror and ask. I mean, asking myself to some degree, like, do you fit the right. Okay, is this, you know, our. Is how you're dressed, does it fit the role? Your hair, does it fit the role? How you answer the phone, does it fit the role? How you engage with clients, does it fit the role? Like, I was very intentional about making sure I fit what I perceived the role to be. And I think in most regards, I was successful. But I think looking back, it was mostly performative.
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:47]:
You know, I don't know that there were many interactions that I had that were really me. I think it was. There was a lot of fear that was behind all of that. There wasn't freedom, who I was at my core wasn't safe or enough. So I was pretending because that felt safer. And so I think about years ago, gosh, I don't even know how long ago, I had a client that came in to a session and he was new and he said, you know, your website's really deceptive. You know, who it looks like you are isn't who you are. And ultimately he meant it as a compliment.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:05]:
But it was the first awareness that I had that who I was and what I presented was incongruent. And that really started me in another level of trying to find congruence in myself. And so I went through a process. Oh, I can't remember exactly what it was called, but sole purpose, something. Anyway, it was a really interesting process where it helped me get really clear about who I was as who I was putting myself out there to be as a clinician. And it was much more resonant of who I was, that website. But there was also fear that I had to post it. Like, if I put out something that is truly reflective of who I am, then how will that impact my business? And I remember it being hard.
Theresa Hubbard [00:24:21]:
And I also remember, you know, for it to be live. Right. And eventually, you know, that resonance came, right? Like who I am and who that mirrors back to me, like, those are the same. Does that make sense? But I even remember somebody that I was working with in marketing that was like, well, you're going to lose clients if you put yourself out there like that.
Walker Bird [00:24:50]:
Guess who was right?
Theresa Hubbard [00:24:54]:
Yeah. Right. Thank you.
Walker Bird [00:24:57]:
Yeah. And so fascinating.
Theresa Hubbard [00:25:01]:
So I think the performative, you know, peace is an expectation that we have. And so in relationship, whatever level of relationship. Again, what I'm trying to do by having this conversation is raise our awareness of it so that we can ask ourselves, when am I pretending? When do I feel that I can be myself? Is there any place that I feel like I can be myself?
Walker Bird [00:25:33]:
Do I know who myself is?
Theresa Hubbard [00:25:35]:
Do I know who myself is? Right. And if there are places that I feel like I actually can be myself, then what is the health of my relationships in those situations?
Walker Bird [00:25:50]:
Okay.
Theresa Hubbard [00:25:50]:
Right. And then again it just increasing our awareness of these ways that we get into relationship and defining ourself and others in relationship that may be true or not true.
Walker Bird [00:26:06]:
Mm hmm.
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:10]:
I think about, you know, Mandy when I go to class, like yoga class with her. I just smile like the whole time because I really feel like Mandy just shows up as Mandy. And it's one of the things that I just love about being in the class is because as the, the guide, there is congruence. And so for me, it's even what I recognize is even easier for my body. Sure, right. Because the energy, if we want to go to an energy perspective, the energy from the guide is congruent.
Walker Bird [00:27:06]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:08]:
My body doesn't have to try to figure out Mandy's energy. Right. Because it's just congruent.
Walker Bird [00:27:17]:
Right. Yeah. I think it's similar to what I was saying. I think it's important. I think it's also important to recognize that we will try on different roles for ourselves to define who. Who we really are. Right, absolutely. And.
Walker Bird [00:27:36]:
And leaving space for that as well, instead of saying, well, I'm a faker or whatever it is, is just recognizing that change occurs hopefully throughout our lives, that we're being curious. And I think then being congruent or trying to be congruent with whatever you're trying out is really important.
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:53]:
Yeah, agreed.
Walker Bird [00:27:55]:
And it was just what came to mind back. Back to me was, you know, I told you the other day, for years I didn't wear a suit to depositions. I wasn't going to show that level of respect to opposing counsel or their witnesses.
Theresa Hubbard [00:28:11]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:28:12]:
And I might dress up a little bit for my own clients. Yeah. Or even wear a suit for them. And I just recently decided I am wearing a suit and a tie.
Theresa Hubbard [00:28:22]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:28:23]:
To all of those interactions. Unless we're traveling, you know, across the country and then I might show up in a button down shirt. But that's a change in role and it's very intentional.
Theresa Hubbard [00:28:36]:
Right. So tell us about that.
Walker Bird [00:28:38]:
Everything that's going on in our country.
Theresa Hubbard [00:28:41]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:28:45]:
To me that there's a lack of civility. And I think bringing back that even dress that level of professionalism is a good message to me to stay professional. I'm not going to go down into the depths. That doesn't mean I'm soft.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:03]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:29:04]:
But I don't have to be savage about it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:06]:
Right, right.
Walker Bird [00:29:07]:
And sends a message also to them and whoever the witness might be. I think it's, you know, it's fascinating and maybe it's old school. Return to old school. Because when I started 30 years ago, God, it's almost been 30 years. You know, I wore a coat and a tie every day.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:25]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:29:26]:
Every day. Sometimes three piece suit.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:28]:
Yeah. And it's so interesting because I think about what's the difference between I'm expected to do this and something that really is resonant with how I want to walk in the world. Right, right. And and the suit is. What it sounds like is the suit is your reminder of how you want to walk in the world. Right. It's kind of like, you know, how I'll say before I testify in a hearing or something, I will repeat the four agreements to myself before I go in the courtroom. Right, right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:02]:
That is like my suit for me. Right. It's like, this is how you want to walk in the world. Remember these four things? Right.
Walker Bird [00:30:11]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:11]:
Is like that. That's what you're talking about.
Walker Bird [00:30:14]:
It is like that. And it's fascinating, since we do the T shirts, for my inner knowing about choosing your intention for the day.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:20]:
Yes.
Walker Bird [00:30:22]:
But it. I guess it's not a whole lot different than that, but it's bigger to me also. Just respect for the rule of law.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:30]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:30:31]:
You know, and I think that comes back to, well, how are we going to behave with each other as lawyers and with other people, so that people who are outside the profession, when they see it, they can see it maybe start seeing it differently.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:44]:
Right. It would be nice if the role of. No, that's not what I'm. The. How we perceived attorneys became respectful again, as opposed to how a lot of people see attorneys and the court system.
Walker Bird [00:31:06]:
And the court system is under attack.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:08]:
Right, right.
Walker Bird [00:31:09]:
And I think, you know, we. We all, as attorneys, bear some responsibility for that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:15]:
Absolutely.
Walker Bird [00:31:16]:
Because people used to wear suits in the 80s.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:19]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:31:19]:
And there was a lot of lawyer jokes when I came out of school. I guess I was in the 90s, that sort of thing. And so there's still that perception, and there may be, always will be, but I think the way we carry ourselves and comport ourselves with each other is a way. That's my way of trying to come back around to respect for that system. I have to respect it myself before anybody else will.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:47]:
Right, right.
Walker Bird [00:31:48]:
Yeah. And act with integrity in dress, in manner, in deed.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:54]:
Yeah, I like it.
Walker Bird [00:31:55]:
Yeah, me too.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:58]:
I like it.
Walker Bird [00:31:59]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:59]:
Yeah. You know, I think about the clothing piece. I think. I think about someone in our office years ago who, you know, would come in, you know, essentially like they had just rolled out of bed. Right. And. And I'm casual at the office. I wear jeans most days.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:33]:
But there is effort that I put into getting ready in the morning. I don't just grab what's laying on the floor. I don't go to work and what I slept in. You know, there is effort even if I am dressed casually. And for me, there is this place that I feel like I'm still in where I don't really know how I want to present because I do feel like there's still a part of me that's like I should dress up just like I did. And every day when I was at the law firm or the accounting firm, and then there's a part of me that's like, but that's not me. I like doing it when I do. Like, you know, Megan's wedding, you know, that was nice.
Theresa Hubbard [00:33:37]:
Or speaking at an engagement, like, that was nice, but, but I don't think that's who I am every day. And there is effort that I put into it. And so that energy is congruent. Right? Yeah. Yeah. What are you thinking?
Walker Bird [00:34:02]:
Just, I, I, I was thinking back as a, as a young attorney and we, you know, double breasted suits, those were my favorite.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:10]:
Oh, yeah.
Walker Bird [00:34:11]:
You remember.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:12]:
It's a long time ago.
Walker Bird [00:34:13]:
But in any event, I liked it. It was a role that I liked. You know, it was important to me to be seen that particular way. And now it's different. And I like that a lot better. I think it's more congruent. That was something that I think or I thought was expected back then, et cetera. But this is for me, because it's not expected by anybody else.
Walker Bird [00:34:38]:
But I do think that it makes a, it's a statement that I want to make. That's my choice. And so I feel the congruence between the two. It doesn't mean I sit around in a suit when I'm just at my office.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:49]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:34:51]:
But in any event, I, I think the intentionality is a really important component of how we're going to proceed with revealing ourselves to others.
Theresa Hubbard [00:35:03]:
Right. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:35:06]:
Yeah. Interesting.
Theresa Hubbard [00:35:09]:
Yeah. What else are you thinking?
Walker Bird [00:35:11]:
Oh, just going back to, um, I got us off track a little bit, I guess. But back to the intimate relations piece and whether we feel less safe when we're not, when we're not stepping into some role.
Theresa Hubbard [00:35:30]:
Yeah. And that specifically is, are we lying to ourselves? Right. I mean, really, you know what? So when I say how we're valuing the story, and again, sometimes we do feel less safe. So I'm not talking about those times. I'm talking about, hmm, we are human. We are going to struggle. We are going to have conflict. Life is going to happen.
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:06]:
And what do we tell ourselves about those things and the people that are with us during those things? We can often lie to ourselves about whether we feel safe. You know, I'm just not safe. And it's like, is it not safe or is it uncomfortable?
Walker Bird [00:36:32]:
Mm, uncomfortable to be who we Are. Is that what you're saying?
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:40]:
To be who we are or to. To be seen? Like, we can want to be seen and at the same time not want to be seen? That's what I mean. Sure. Right. Like, I want you to tell me the truth. I don't want you to tell me the truth. Right.
Walker Bird [00:36:55]:
We're so complex.
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:56]:
Right. I want you to be. I'm trying to think of something else. I want you to be more playful with me. Why are you doing that? Right. That's so. Does that make sense? So to me, it's like we can be lying to ourself about what we want. And what is that for us? You know, are we even thinking about it? How are we valuing it? You know, is.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:26]:
You know, we're asking this person for something which we think is going to make us feel safe, and then it doesn't make us feel safe. And then again, I just. To me, it's about awareness. All of it's about increasing our awareness of who we are in a role. Are we playing a role right now? Sometimes we can act like we're not playing a role, but we're still playing a role. Very complex. And so I just know that these are not things we typically talk about. So that's why it was on my mind was for us to consider ourselves in these different roles.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:10]:
And then again, how is safety ultimately connected to it for us? Because, again, I think we can feel safe in relationships that are not our intimate relationships, but it's because that person doesn't really know us. I think. I. I think. I don't know if I talked about this on podcast or not. So a long time ago, I was at a retreat, and some guy was hitting on me and was very direct about wanting to have an affair. And. And I.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:56]:
I'm sorry, I just think that it's amusing. And so I said, oh, so you really want to get to know me? And he's like, yes, I want to get to know you. And I was like, well, then let's start with my four cesarean sections.
Walker Bird [00:39:12]:
Nice.
Theresa Hubbard [00:39:14]:
And he's like, yeah, I don't want to hear about that. And I was like, oh, okay. Well, you don't actually want to get to know me. And I did. On purpose. Right. I mean, I was teaching. Right.
Walker Bird [00:39:28]:
I don't think I've ever heard that one. You haven't? No, I've heard others, but not that one.
Theresa Hubbard [00:39:35]:
And so, no, he wanted really just a role. Right. And so he may have felt safe in the role he was in. He may have felt safe in the role me. Felt safe with me in the role I was in. Right. That's not real, but we think it's real. We can value that feeling of safety and connection as real and to not be real at all.
Theresa Hubbard [00:40:03]:
So again, for me, it's all about how are we valuing things? Are we even aware whether we're in a role or not in a role? Do we experiment with not being in a role? And what does that look like, you know, with the people around us that we're in intimate relationship with? Whether it's our partner or children or parents or siblings, our friends. Would they be okay if we weren't playing a role? I don't know. Just things I'm thinking about. What are you thinking?
Walker Bird [00:40:45]:
Life's a mystery. That's what I'm thinking.
Theresa Hubbard [00:40:50]:
It's really complex.
Walker Bird [00:40:52]:
It is. Well, I'm thinking about your young self. You.
Theresa Hubbard [00:40:55]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:40:56]:
Back at the big law firm on the 40th floor or whatever.
Theresa Hubbard [00:40:58]:
Right. It was 40th floor. Yep.
Walker Bird [00:41:01]:
See, I even know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:41:03]:
I think there's 41 floors now, but there was 40 back. Yeah. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:41:10]:
How would you act differently today if you weren't playing that role, but you were that age again in that law firm?
Theresa Hubbard [00:41:18]:
If I wasn't playing a role, how.
Walker Bird [00:41:21]:
Would you have changed?
Theresa Hubbard [00:41:23]:
That is a really good question.
Walker Bird [00:41:26]:
Or would you have you say, well, it wouldn't have worked. I don't know the interesting part.
Theresa Hubbard [00:41:34]:
Yeah, that is a really good question. I don't know if I know I could be myself now in that environment. I don't know how it would be perceived for sure what people would decide about who I am now in that environment. Yeah. I would guess that if the people that I worked with back then heard me now 35 years later, that that would probably be surprising to them to some degree. You know, maybe not everybody that worked there. There could have been some people that saw past my performative to me. Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:42:44]:
But I think for other people, they'd be like, holy cow. Like, that is a very different person than the role she was playing. Yeah. I think I was more who I was in high school. I don't think I really cared so much about high school. And so I don't know that I played as much of a role. But I guess we'd have to ask the people I went to high school with who maybe haven't had much contact with me in over 35 years. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:43:35]:
I just think I was kind of doing my own thing and I wasn't really thinking about It. But I knew as soon as I stepped into that office building that I had to play a role. Yeah. But I would get tired, too, of playing a role. I mean, I think about, like, the ending, you know, like, you know, when I left that first law firm. Oh. I was like, 22. I think I'd been there four years.
Theresa Hubbard [00:44:06]:
I think I had started, like, getting tired of the role, but then I think I stepped right into another role.
Walker Bird [00:44:13]:
Yes, we did.
Theresa Hubbard [00:44:14]:
And then got tired of that role. I think that went on for a bit. I would just shift into a different but similar role.
Walker Bird [00:44:26]:
I don't know. I'm. I'm. And I know we're getting close to. To time, but, you know, as you look over the span of your life, we are certainly, I think, trying a lot more roles on when we're younger.
Theresa Hubbard [00:44:39]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:44:39]:
And I'm not saying we should become static. I don't think that's good either. But I also think, hopefully, as we become more introspective and do our work, that we start to develop a core understanding of this. This is, you know, these are parts of me that are not unchangeable, but known. More static. So we're more comfortable in our skin, I guess.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:15]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:45:16]:
It seems easier to me now to be who I want to be, who I am.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:21]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:45:22]:
Than it did when I was younger.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:23]:
Sure, sure. When you were saying that, I was. I was imagining myself settling into a contemplative place, like, let's say before I went out to an event and I was trying to imagine myself, like, do I feel congruent? Do I feel like how I am presenting myself physically, emotionally, mentally, do those feel congruent? Or do I feel like I'm playing a role or that I have to play a role? And if I don't play a role, what's the fear? And so I'm just imagining myself having that short conversation with myself. And it's not about not ever playing a role. It's just, do I even know when I am?
Walker Bird [00:46:28]:
That's exactly what was coming to mind.
Theresa Hubbard [00:46:30]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:46:30]:
Is the intention.
Theresa Hubbard [00:46:32]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:46:32]:
I am choosing.
Theresa Hubbard [00:46:35]:
This.
Walker Bird [00:46:36]:
Yes. Right. So we're not just on autopilot.
Theresa Hubbard [00:46:39]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:46:40]:
But you've chosen.
Theresa Hubbard [00:46:41]:
Right?
Walker Bird [00:46:42]:
Big difference, Right?
Theresa Hubbard [00:46:43]:
Absolutely.
Walker Bird [00:46:44]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:46:44]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:46:45]:
I like it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:46:46]:
Thank you.
Walker Bird [00:46:46]:
Thank you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:46:47]:
Yeah. Yeah. Any final thoughts?
Walker Bird [00:46:54]:
Hang in there. Yeah, we're all still figuring it out. I do think that we get. You get more of a sense of self, hopefully. But I don't want to be the same person always.
Theresa Hubbard [00:47:04]:
No.
Walker Bird [00:47:05]:
I do want to develop a sense of myself, though. Some core Beliefs and. But I'm still working on it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:47:13]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:47:13]:
You know, even at 56.
Theresa Hubbard [00:47:15]:
Absolutely.
Walker Bird [00:47:16]:
And that's okay, too. But the intentional part is really the biggest difference for me at this point in my life. And I think it could have been a lot earlier.
Theresa Hubbard [00:47:24]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:47:25]:
I'm choosing to do this, and these are the reasons why. Okay. And maybe in certain circumstances, like the law firm, you would still need, but you still might do some things differently.
Theresa Hubbard [00:47:38]:
Oh, for sure.
Walker Bird [00:47:39]:
That's what I.
Theresa Hubbard [00:47:41]:
There are plenty of things I would do differently.
Walker Bird [00:47:43]:
Yeah. Anyway, that's, I think, flexibility and grace for ourselves, but also the recognition that doing your work will give you that sense of self and then you can make decisions about how much you'll share or what role you're going to play in what situations. And will you adjust it as you go through that day in that situation? Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:48:08]:
Yeah. Just continuing to increase our awareness of ourself in different situations. And again, that's what this talk was all about was, you know, can I pay more attention to myself in different interactions so that I'm learning more about what I'm doing and why am I doing what I'm doing?
Walker Bird [00:48:31]:
Yeah. I think the intentional part, if I'm living intentionally, that brings a level of congruence with my presentation. Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:48:43]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:48:43]:
And it may not be all of who I am at all, you know, because my casual self is. Will be different than it is in the business world or in the courtroom.
Theresa Hubbard [00:48:52]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:48:53]:
But you still, by making the choice and having contemplated it, you create congruence, I think.
Theresa Hubbard [00:48:59]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:48:59]:
What do you think?
Theresa Hubbard [00:49:00]:
Oh, I agree.
Walker Bird [00:49:00]:
My. On track.
Theresa Hubbard [00:49:01]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The intentionality. Right. And again. Hmm. It's funny because when you said that, I was thinking of a very extreme example of someone saying, okay, I'm going to step into this role and it is crazy and I'm doing it anyway, is still going to be more congruent than if I'm doing it on autopilot. Right.
Walker Bird [00:49:33]:
Why does she act that way? Right. Why do I act that way? Yeah. No, I agree.
Theresa Hubbard [00:49:44]:
Yeah. Always interesting, always learning, always so much growth opportunities every day in our life. Yeah. Thanks for the conversation.
Walker Bird [00:50:00]:
Yeah. Thank you. Love you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:50:01]:
I love you too. Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth, and we strive to be more compassionate every day.
We wanted to take a moment to encourage you to take the 10 Essential Skills to Build Stronger and Healthier Relationship course.
Walker Bird [00:00:09]:
We've all heard it said that when you get to the end of your life, you're not looking back at the money that you made or the things that you had, but at the relationships that you had with your children, your family, your friends, and your co workers. We hope you'll join us.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:24]:
Yeah. We truly believe it is worth the effort.
Walker Bird [00:00:32]:
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life. Each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:01]:
Well, hello.
Walker Bird [00:01:01]:
Hi there.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:04]:
How are you?
Walker Bird [00:01:06]:
A little on edge.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:07]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Walker Bird [00:01:09]:
There's a lot of work to try to get done before we leave town. Yeah, that's my. What I want to do. I don't want to be working while we're traveling.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:17]:
Yeah, yeah. Agreed. A very minimal amount.
Walker Bird [00:01:22]:
So. Yeah, just, you know, struggling to get focused.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:25]:
Yeah. Okay.
Walker Bird [00:01:26]:
Yeah. Well, how are you?
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:29]:
I'm okay. Yeah. Yeah. There is a lot to do before we go, so trying to. And it will all be just fine. Yeah. But wanting it to go well, the trip, for it to be smooth. Right.
Walker Bird [00:01:47]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:48]:
So. So what I was. What was on my mind this morning that I thought would be an interesting conversation?
Walker Bird [00:01:55]:
You've been thinking.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:56]:
I've been thinking. I've been thinking about what do we tell ourselves that creates safety for us in relationship? So I'm just. I'm going to try to figure out how to say this as succinctly as possible. I believe sometimes that we feel safer in certain relationships, but I think that sometimes we might feel safer because we're actually performing. What I'm curious about is I think in our intimate relationships, we can feel less safe. And I think sometimes we are for sure. So it's not about that, but I think we can feel less safe in our relationships because maybe we aren't performing. What do you think? Are you like.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:18]:
What are you talking about?
Walker Bird [00:03:21]:
I don't know. I don't. The intimate relationships thing came in and I just. There was a disconnect for me there.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:29]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:03:29]:
You know, when you were like, but we're probably not. But do we feel safer when we're not performing or vice versa? So you got to try again. Come in another direction here.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:39]:
Okay, so how about to be more Specific.
Walker Bird [00:03:43]:
Oh, okay.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:44]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:03:45]:
You have an agenda.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:50]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:03:50]:
You have an idea.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:51]:
I do. I have an idea. So, for example, I think sometimes we might feel safer in our relationships at work. Maybe we have friends there that we feel like are safer because we don't either have a lot of negative interactions or even maybe not much interaction, but it's not contentious, so it feels safer. But oftentimes in those environments, there's a role that we're playing as opposed to showing those people at work, all of ourselves. So is the safety that we may feel around other people real, or is it really because they don't know who we are?
Walker Bird [00:04:57]:
They know parts of us.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:58]:
Parts of us. Right.
Walker Bird [00:04:59]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:00]:
And then we may have a harder time in our home feeling seen, loved, heard, understood. And that may be true, but could it be because at home we're playing less of a role and more of who we are without the role is showing, and that makes the people around us more uncomfortable. And so maybe there's more. Maybe there's more tension or frustration in our more intimate relationships because there's less role playing.
Walker Bird [00:05:49]:
Fascinating.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:51]:
Just curious. What do you think?
Walker Bird [00:05:55]:
What do you do?
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:00]:
I want to know what you're thinking, and then I'll tell you.
Walker Bird [00:06:04]:
I immediately want to test your hypothesis. Oh, really? Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:08]:
Okay, go ahead.
Walker Bird [00:06:10]:
I mean, what was going through my mind is for us to reveal more and to be in less of a role so that more of our parts are seen or more parts of us are seen anyway. You know what I'm saying? Different aspects of the truth about ourselves. Right. Don't we have to have a higher level of safety before we start to reveal those anyway? And that comes with intimate relationships?
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:40]:
Sometimes, I believe so.
Walker Bird [00:06:43]:
Okay.
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:43]:
What I think about is. And I don't actually know the technical term or maybe the most accepted term in family therapy, but when I was younger in my career, we would call a certain phenomenon a flip flop. And so something that was endearing about you when we were newer in relationship then becomes one of the most frustrating things. And so. And the reason that might be most of the time. I'm not saying all the time. Some people's behaviors can escalate into ways that are. That are unhealthy and unsafe.
Theresa Hubbard [00:07:31]:
But really the belief behind that was. Was that we changed the value of that behavior. Like, my what? So you may not. You may have been, for example, like a jokester, right? Like, oh, he's so funny. And now it's like, ugh, he's so irritating. So they would call that the flip flop. Like, Your behavior may actually be the same, but I've decided that I don't like it anymore. And so what I'm doing, looking at is really how do we value what's really happening in our relationship, is what I'm talking about.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:13]:
And so, you know, is there, like, a perceived safety that we have around people who don't know us and we think it's safer because it really isn't very challenging and they don't really know us because we're really playing a role versus at home. It's more uncomfortable and more stressful, but I'm not playing much of a role there. But I think. I think being at home is harder, but maybe it's just because we're playing less of a role as opposed to it being less safe. So for me, what I'm coming at is how do we value those things? I think we. We often don't look at things very deeply. It's more surface. And if we.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:54]:
We come up with a reason in our mind, that seems to make sense. And that's true, but we may not test it out. So for me, it is about how are we valuing what's actually happening in our relationship? Are we being curious?
Walker Bird [00:09:18]:
Well, I think it's easy to get in patterns with your intimate partner.
Theresa Hubbard [00:09:23]:
Yes. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:09:24]:
Okay. And then I. So that can happen. And I think curiosity is the antidote to that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:09:33]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:09:33]:
Doing a podcast together is an antidote to that as well.
Theresa Hubbard [00:09:36]:
But it has been for us.
Walker Bird [00:09:38]:
It has. No, it's. I'm kind of. There's. It seems like there's more than one issue going on. But coming back to the. The safety piece, you know, there's a lot more of us out there at home than there is in other places. You know what I'm saying? I mean, you know more about me than many other people ever will, even though you don't know at all, I'm sure.
Walker Bird [00:10:05]:
Right. And I feel safe enough, you know, to be able to do that. But it's. It's an interesting. It cuts both ways, I guess, is what I would say.
Theresa Hubbard [00:10:22]:
Tell me more.
Walker Bird [00:10:23]:
When you are that vulnerable, it can feel unsafe just because it can feel potentially dangerous. Like, as in, I could lose this relationship. Especially if the pattern that you've had in the past or behavior like you're saying that used to be endearing to your partner now just irritates your partner and that, you know, it's. That's heartbreaking to contemplate something that they thought was so cute or just a quirk in your Personality that was fun, and now you're being judged by it. Now all of a sudden, what felt safe doesn't feel safe anymore, depending on how the partner who's flip flopped presents it. Right. At the same time, I think we have to hold in mind that we're all changing. And so, you know, to soften the blow of that, you know, it just depends on how.
Walker Bird [00:11:26]:
It's for how you're interacting, really. You know, if you start treating me with disdain because, I don't know, I, like, shake my booty at you, you know, something like that. And all of a sudden you're like, God, you know, that's going to hurt my feelings. If all of a sudden you're like, would you stop it?
Theresa Hubbard [00:11:47]:
Yeah, that won't happen.
Walker Bird [00:11:49]:
But it can.
Theresa Hubbard [00:11:51]:
It could. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:11:52]:
Yeah. So I. I don't know if I'm fathoming your depths yet, but those are at least initial reactions to the topic. What are you thinking?
Theresa Hubbard [00:12:12]:
Hmm. I think we are often disappointed relationally because I do think that, you know, I know that I have talked about this before on a different podcast episode, but I remember this client, years, years, years ago, talked about how the first six months of a relationship, someone only gets my representative.
Walker Bird [00:12:45]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:12:46]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:12:46]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:12:47]:
Surprise. Right. Right. You know, and I. And I think that is common because I do think it goes to the fear of abandonment, you know, peace that we have. And so I need to play this role that I've been taught, or I need to play a role that I feel like society is telling me I have to play. I don't think many of us show up just being who we are. And I've seen reels out there where people.
Theresa Hubbard [00:13:28]:
They're not being who they are, but they're playing, like, the opposite role. Right. Because they're like, can I. If I'm. If I freak this person out at the beginning, then I don't want them to stay. Right. So they. They.
Theresa Hubbard [00:13:43]:
They're testing. Right. So we can have different ways of testing. What I'm curious about is, can we. Can we practice being more authentic in all of our relationships so that we're more consistent no matter the setting? And I instantly think of. I'm not, like, talking about burp being and farting at the office in front of everybody. I'm not talking about that.
Walker Bird [00:14:20]:
That's not me.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:21]:
I know. I know, but I do. I do know other people other than you. Right. You were not who came to mind when I was thinking about that. But I. That's not. That's not what I'M talking about.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:46]:
What I'm talking about again is how do we value the people in our relationship at the same time, holding the lens in regards to is, is this relationship that feels good real because they know who I am, or does this relationship feel good because they don't know who I am? What are you thinking?
Walker Bird [00:15:23]:
I think it would be best if every day, in every way, we could be our most authentic self.
Theresa Hubbard [00:15:30]:
Yes.
Walker Bird [00:15:32]:
I don't know, however, that that's practical for the work setting. For example, you know, get in work and then if you want to socialize, go socialize.
Theresa Hubbard [00:15:46]:
Yeah, I don't think about it like that. I mean, I think. I'm not. I don't want the people in my office to perform. Right, right.
Walker Bird [00:15:54]:
Agreeing.
Theresa Hubbard [00:15:54]:
Right. I mean, I want them to be who they are and I want people to come in and do their work and go home and. And so I want. I mean, can't it be both? Can't we. Can't we be who we are and still focus on work?
Walker Bird [00:16:13]:
I think we can.
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:14]:
Okay, tell me more.
Walker Bird [00:16:17]:
Well, if you were just doing your thing, right. Without putting on airs or speaking in a different voice, because I know people in the law business that use a different voice when they're on the job. And I'm like, are you kidding?
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:33]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:16:33]:
But they do. All of a sudden, the radio comes out. Wow, this is craz.
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:38]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:16:39]:
Yeah. You know, I don't need that. But it's human. It's just human.
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:46]:
But performative. Performative, because we feel like it is best that we play a role in this situation.
Walker Bird [00:16:57]:
Let me ask you this. What's the difference between being performative and getting your work mind on putting on your work coat.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:07]:
Oh, man. Okay, let me think.
Walker Bird [00:17:12]:
Because I'm a very different person as a lawyer than I am when I'm not.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:19]:
Yeah, but you've been working on those being more congruent.
Walker Bird [00:17:22]:
Oh, I have. I'm a much nicer lawyer than I used to be.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:25]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:17:26]:
But I'm still different. And it's just because of what I do.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:30]:
Right. And the role that you feel like you need to play in those situations.
Walker Bird [00:17:40]:
Yeah. I think I'm just trying to analyze as we go, but I think if we look at that transformation for me, and it's not complete. I don't know that it ever would be complete. But I think I'm a strong person, but I don't think that my nature is combative. I can be aggressive in certain circumstances and do the warrior, all those things. I can be that when it's needed. But I used to think it was needed all the time.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:22]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:18:23]:
And my experience in changing that role or the degree of that role has been a positive experience. I think that I'm more. It's less stressful to work with opposing attorneys. And I can still hold boundaries, though, because it's critical with what I do. Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:46]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:18:48]:
But there's a. Just. Just a different degree, I think, a different way of approaching it. I can still have a boundary and not be an ass.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:57]:
Right. Just.
Walker Bird [00:18:59]:
Sorry, I'm not doing that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:00]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:19:00]:
Versus fu.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:03]:
Right. Right.
Walker Bird [00:19:04]:
Or I will not compromise on anything.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:07]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:19:08]:
You know, and also, it just. When you bring your own energy, whatever your nature may be, I just think the universe is more able to allow things to flow to you than when you have a role that carries an energy that is not congruent with your essence. And, you know, I struggle with my essence and being a trial lawyer, but the more congruent that is has become, the more success I've had with settlements, settlement amounts, jury verdicts, being able to walk through each day without despising everything I do.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:01]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:20:02]:
Or what everybody else does, too.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:04]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:20:06]:
So I don't know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:08]:
I think about when. When I was young and I stepped into the corporate world young. When I was 18, I got, you know, a job at a law firm. I was going to be a lawyer. We. Our offices were on the. The top floor of the tallest building in Kansas City. Right.
Walker Bird [00:20:31]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:31]:
I mean, 18, I was big time.
Walker Bird [00:20:33]:
Oh, yeah. I would have thought I was big time, too.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:37]:
And what I know is that. What I know is that in order to have done that, because that was not a part of my upbringing at all. Right. Like that it was. Yes. So unfamiliar to me.
Walker Bird [00:20:53]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:54]:
That I was playing a role. Right. And I mean, I can clearly remember, like, even getting ready for work and looking at myself in the mirror and ask. I mean, asking myself to some degree, like, do you fit the right. Okay, is this, you know, our. Is how you're dressed, does it fit the role? Your hair, does it fit the role? How you answer the phone, does it fit the role? How you engage with clients, does it fit the role? Like, I was very intentional about making sure I fit what I perceived the role to be. And I think in most regards, I was successful. But I think looking back, it was mostly performative.
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:47]:
You know, I don't know that there were many interactions that I had that were really me. I think it was. There was a lot of fear that was behind all of that. There wasn't freedom, who I was at my core wasn't safe or enough. So I was pretending because that felt safer. And so I think about years ago, gosh, I don't even know how long ago, I had a client that came in to a session and he was new and he said, you know, your website's really deceptive. You know, who it looks like you are isn't who you are. And ultimately he meant it as a compliment.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:05]:
But it was the first awareness that I had that who I was and what I presented was incongruent. And that really started me in another level of trying to find congruence in myself. And so I went through a process. Oh, I can't remember exactly what it was called, but sole purpose, something. Anyway, it was a really interesting process where it helped me get really clear about who I was as who I was putting myself out there to be as a clinician. And it was much more resonant of who I was, that website. But there was also fear that I had to post it. Like, if I put out something that is truly reflective of who I am, then how will that impact my business? And I remember it being hard.
Theresa Hubbard [00:24:21]:
And I also remember, you know, for it to be live. Right. And eventually, you know, that resonance came, right? Like who I am and who that mirrors back to me, like, those are the same. Does that make sense? But I even remember somebody that I was working with in marketing that was like, well, you're going to lose clients if you put yourself out there like that.
Walker Bird [00:24:50]:
Guess who was right?
Theresa Hubbard [00:24:54]:
Yeah. Right. Thank you.
Walker Bird [00:24:57]:
Yeah. And so fascinating.
Theresa Hubbard [00:25:01]:
So I think the performative, you know, peace is an expectation that we have. And so in relationship, whatever level of relationship. Again, what I'm trying to do by having this conversation is raise our awareness of it so that we can ask ourselves, when am I pretending? When do I feel that I can be myself? Is there any place that I feel like I can be myself?
Walker Bird [00:25:33]:
Do I know who myself is?
Theresa Hubbard [00:25:35]:
Do I know who myself is? Right. And if there are places that I feel like I actually can be myself, then what is the health of my relationships in those situations?
Walker Bird [00:25:50]:
Okay.
Theresa Hubbard [00:25:50]:
Right. And then again it just increasing our awareness of these ways that we get into relationship and defining ourself and others in relationship that may be true or not true.
Walker Bird [00:26:06]:
Mm hmm.
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:10]:
I think about, you know, Mandy when I go to class, like yoga class with her. I just smile like the whole time because I really feel like Mandy just shows up as Mandy. And it's one of the things that I just love about being in the class is because as the, the guide, there is congruence. And so for me, it's even what I recognize is even easier for my body. Sure, right. Because the energy, if we want to go to an energy perspective, the energy from the guide is congruent.
Walker Bird [00:27:06]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:08]:
My body doesn't have to try to figure out Mandy's energy. Right. Because it's just congruent.
Walker Bird [00:27:17]:
Right. Yeah. I think it's similar to what I was saying. I think it's important. I think it's also important to recognize that we will try on different roles for ourselves to define who. Who we really are. Right, absolutely. And.
Walker Bird [00:27:36]:
And leaving space for that as well, instead of saying, well, I'm a faker or whatever it is, is just recognizing that change occurs hopefully throughout our lives, that we're being curious. And I think then being congruent or trying to be congruent with whatever you're trying out is really important.
Theresa Hubbard [00:27:53]:
Yeah, agreed.
Walker Bird [00:27:55]:
And it was just what came to mind back. Back to me was, you know, I told you the other day, for years I didn't wear a suit to depositions. I wasn't going to show that level of respect to opposing counsel or their witnesses.
Theresa Hubbard [00:28:11]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:28:12]:
And I might dress up a little bit for my own clients. Yeah. Or even wear a suit for them. And I just recently decided I am wearing a suit and a tie.
Theresa Hubbard [00:28:22]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:28:23]:
To all of those interactions. Unless we're traveling, you know, across the country and then I might show up in a button down shirt. But that's a change in role and it's very intentional.
Theresa Hubbard [00:28:36]:
Right. So tell us about that.
Walker Bird [00:28:38]:
Everything that's going on in our country.
Theresa Hubbard [00:28:41]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:28:45]:
To me that there's a lack of civility. And I think bringing back that even dress that level of professionalism is a good message to me to stay professional. I'm not going to go down into the depths. That doesn't mean I'm soft.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:03]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:29:04]:
But I don't have to be savage about it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:06]:
Right, right.
Walker Bird [00:29:07]:
And sends a message also to them and whoever the witness might be. I think it's, you know, it's fascinating and maybe it's old school. Return to old school. Because when I started 30 years ago, God, it's almost been 30 years. You know, I wore a coat and a tie every day.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:25]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:29:26]:
Every day. Sometimes three piece suit.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:28]:
Yeah. And it's so interesting because I think about what's the difference between I'm expected to do this and something that really is resonant with how I want to walk in the world. Right, right. And and the suit is. What it sounds like is the suit is your reminder of how you want to walk in the world. Right. It's kind of like, you know, how I'll say before I testify in a hearing or something, I will repeat the four agreements to myself before I go in the courtroom. Right, right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:02]:
That is like my suit for me. Right. It's like, this is how you want to walk in the world. Remember these four things? Right.
Walker Bird [00:30:11]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:11]:
Is like that. That's what you're talking about.
Walker Bird [00:30:14]:
It is like that. And it's fascinating, since we do the T shirts, for my inner knowing about choosing your intention for the day.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:20]:
Yes.
Walker Bird [00:30:22]:
But it. I guess it's not a whole lot different than that, but it's bigger to me also. Just respect for the rule of law.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:30]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:30:31]:
You know, and I think that comes back to, well, how are we going to behave with each other as lawyers and with other people, so that people who are outside the profession, when they see it, they can see it maybe start seeing it differently.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:44]:
Right. It would be nice if the role of. No, that's not what I'm. The. How we perceived attorneys became respectful again, as opposed to how a lot of people see attorneys and the court system.
Walker Bird [00:31:06]:
And the court system is under attack.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:08]:
Right, right.
Walker Bird [00:31:09]:
And I think, you know, we. We all, as attorneys, bear some responsibility for that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:15]:
Absolutely.
Walker Bird [00:31:16]:
Because people used to wear suits in the 80s.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:19]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:31:19]:
And there was a lot of lawyer jokes when I came out of school. I guess I was in the 90s, that sort of thing. And so there's still that perception, and there may be, always will be, but I think the way we carry ourselves and comport ourselves with each other is a way. That's my way of trying to come back around to respect for that system. I have to respect it myself before anybody else will.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:47]:
Right, right.
Walker Bird [00:31:48]:
Yeah. And act with integrity in dress, in manner, in deed.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:54]:
Yeah, I like it.
Walker Bird [00:31:55]:
Yeah, me too.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:58]:
I like it.
Walker Bird [00:31:59]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:59]:
Yeah. You know, I think about the clothing piece. I think. I think about someone in our office years ago who, you know, would come in, you know, essentially like they had just rolled out of bed. Right. And. And I'm casual at the office. I wear jeans most days.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:33]:
But there is effort that I put into getting ready in the morning. I don't just grab what's laying on the floor. I don't go to work and what I slept in. You know, there is effort even if I am dressed casually. And for me, there is this place that I feel like I'm still in where I don't really know how I want to present because I do feel like there's still a part of me that's like I should dress up just like I did. And every day when I was at the law firm or the accounting firm, and then there's a part of me that's like, but that's not me. I like doing it when I do. Like, you know, Megan's wedding, you know, that was nice.
Theresa Hubbard [00:33:37]:
Or speaking at an engagement, like, that was nice, but, but I don't think that's who I am every day. And there is effort that I put into it. And so that energy is congruent. Right? Yeah. Yeah. What are you thinking?
Walker Bird [00:34:02]:
Just, I, I, I was thinking back as a, as a young attorney and we, you know, double breasted suits, those were my favorite.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:10]:
Oh, yeah.
Walker Bird [00:34:11]:
You remember.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:12]:
It's a long time ago.
Walker Bird [00:34:13]:
But in any event, I liked it. It was a role that I liked. You know, it was important to me to be seen that particular way. And now it's different. And I like that a lot better. I think it's more congruent. That was something that I think or I thought was expected back then, et cetera. But this is for me, because it's not expected by anybody else.
Walker Bird [00:34:38]:
But I do think that it makes a, it's a statement that I want to make. That's my choice. And so I feel the congruence between the two. It doesn't mean I sit around in a suit when I'm just at my office.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:49]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:34:51]:
But in any event, I, I think the intentionality is a really important component of how we're going to proceed with revealing ourselves to others.
Theresa Hubbard [00:35:03]:
Right. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:35:06]:
Yeah. Interesting.
Theresa Hubbard [00:35:09]:
Yeah. What else are you thinking?
Walker Bird [00:35:11]:
Oh, just going back to, um, I got us off track a little bit, I guess. But back to the intimate relations piece and whether we feel less safe when we're not, when we're not stepping into some role.
Theresa Hubbard [00:35:30]:
Yeah. And that specifically is, are we lying to ourselves? Right. I mean, really, you know what? So when I say how we're valuing the story, and again, sometimes we do feel less safe. So I'm not talking about those times. I'm talking about, hmm, we are human. We are going to struggle. We are going to have conflict. Life is going to happen.
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:06]:
And what do we tell ourselves about those things and the people that are with us during those things? We can often lie to ourselves about whether we feel safe. You know, I'm just not safe. And it's like, is it not safe or is it uncomfortable?
Walker Bird [00:36:32]:
Mm, uncomfortable to be who we Are. Is that what you're saying?
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:40]:
To be who we are or to. To be seen? Like, we can want to be seen and at the same time not want to be seen? That's what I mean. Sure. Right. Like, I want you to tell me the truth. I don't want you to tell me the truth. Right.
Walker Bird [00:36:55]:
We're so complex.
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:56]:
Right. I want you to be. I'm trying to think of something else. I want you to be more playful with me. Why are you doing that? Right. That's so. Does that make sense? So to me, it's like we can be lying to ourself about what we want. And what is that for us? You know, are we even thinking about it? How are we valuing it? You know, is.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:26]:
You know, we're asking this person for something which we think is going to make us feel safe, and then it doesn't make us feel safe. And then again, I just. To me, it's about awareness. All of it's about increasing our awareness of who we are in a role. Are we playing a role right now? Sometimes we can act like we're not playing a role, but we're still playing a role. Very complex. And so I just know that these are not things we typically talk about. So that's why it was on my mind was for us to consider ourselves in these different roles.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:10]:
And then again, how is safety ultimately connected to it for us? Because, again, I think we can feel safe in relationships that are not our intimate relationships, but it's because that person doesn't really know us. I think. I. I think. I don't know if I talked about this on podcast or not. So a long time ago, I was at a retreat, and some guy was hitting on me and was very direct about wanting to have an affair. And. And I.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:56]:
I'm sorry, I just think that it's amusing. And so I said, oh, so you really want to get to know me? And he's like, yes, I want to get to know you. And I was like, well, then let's start with my four cesarean sections.
Walker Bird [00:39:12]:
Nice.
Theresa Hubbard [00:39:14]:
And he's like, yeah, I don't want to hear about that. And I was like, oh, okay. Well, you don't actually want to get to know me. And I did. On purpose. Right. I mean, I was teaching. Right.
Walker Bird [00:39:28]:
I don't think I've ever heard that one. You haven't? No, I've heard others, but not that one.
Theresa Hubbard [00:39:35]:
And so, no, he wanted really just a role. Right. And so he may have felt safe in the role he was in. He may have felt safe in the role me. Felt safe with me in the role I was in. Right. That's not real, but we think it's real. We can value that feeling of safety and connection as real and to not be real at all.
Theresa Hubbard [00:40:03]:
So again, for me, it's all about how are we valuing things? Are we even aware whether we're in a role or not in a role? Do we experiment with not being in a role? And what does that look like, you know, with the people around us that we're in intimate relationship with? Whether it's our partner or children or parents or siblings, our friends. Would they be okay if we weren't playing a role? I don't know. Just things I'm thinking about. What are you thinking?
Walker Bird [00:40:45]:
Life's a mystery. That's what I'm thinking.
Theresa Hubbard [00:40:50]:
It's really complex.
Walker Bird [00:40:52]:
It is. Well, I'm thinking about your young self. You.
Theresa Hubbard [00:40:55]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:40:56]:
Back at the big law firm on the 40th floor or whatever.
Theresa Hubbard [00:40:58]:
Right. It was 40th floor. Yep.
Walker Bird [00:41:01]:
See, I even know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:41:03]:
I think there's 41 floors now, but there was 40 back. Yeah. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:41:10]:
How would you act differently today if you weren't playing that role, but you were that age again in that law firm?
Theresa Hubbard [00:41:18]:
If I wasn't playing a role, how.
Walker Bird [00:41:21]:
Would you have changed?
Theresa Hubbard [00:41:23]:
That is a really good question.
Walker Bird [00:41:26]:
Or would you have you say, well, it wouldn't have worked. I don't know the interesting part.
Theresa Hubbard [00:41:34]:
Yeah, that is a really good question. I don't know if I know I could be myself now in that environment. I don't know how it would be perceived for sure what people would decide about who I am now in that environment. Yeah. I would guess that if the people that I worked with back then heard me now 35 years later, that that would probably be surprising to them to some degree. You know, maybe not everybody that worked there. There could have been some people that saw past my performative to me. Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:42:44]:
But I think for other people, they'd be like, holy cow. Like, that is a very different person than the role she was playing. Yeah. I think I was more who I was in high school. I don't think I really cared so much about high school. And so I don't know that I played as much of a role. But I guess we'd have to ask the people I went to high school with who maybe haven't had much contact with me in over 35 years. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:43:35]:
I just think I was kind of doing my own thing and I wasn't really thinking about It. But I knew as soon as I stepped into that office building that I had to play a role. Yeah. But I would get tired, too, of playing a role. I mean, I think about, like, the ending, you know, like, you know, when I left that first law firm. Oh. I was like, 22. I think I'd been there four years.
Theresa Hubbard [00:44:06]:
I think I had started, like, getting tired of the role, but then I think I stepped right into another role.
Walker Bird [00:44:13]:
Yes, we did.
Theresa Hubbard [00:44:14]:
And then got tired of that role. I think that went on for a bit. I would just shift into a different but similar role.
Walker Bird [00:44:26]:
I don't know. I'm. I'm. And I know we're getting close to. To time, but, you know, as you look over the span of your life, we are certainly, I think, trying a lot more roles on when we're younger.
Theresa Hubbard [00:44:39]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:44:39]:
And I'm not saying we should become static. I don't think that's good either. But I also think, hopefully, as we become more introspective and do our work, that we start to develop a core understanding of this. This is, you know, these are parts of me that are not unchangeable, but known. More static. So we're more comfortable in our skin, I guess.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:15]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:45:16]:
It seems easier to me now to be who I want to be, who I am.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:21]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:45:22]:
Than it did when I was younger.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:23]:
Sure, sure. When you were saying that, I was. I was imagining myself settling into a contemplative place, like, let's say before I went out to an event and I was trying to imagine myself, like, do I feel congruent? Do I feel like how I am presenting myself physically, emotionally, mentally, do those feel congruent? Or do I feel like I'm playing a role or that I have to play a role? And if I don't play a role, what's the fear? And so I'm just imagining myself having that short conversation with myself. And it's not about not ever playing a role. It's just, do I even know when I am?
Walker Bird [00:46:28]:
That's exactly what was coming to mind.
Theresa Hubbard [00:46:30]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:46:30]:
Is the intention.
Theresa Hubbard [00:46:32]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:46:32]:
I am choosing.
Theresa Hubbard [00:46:35]:
This.
Walker Bird [00:46:36]:
Yes. Right. So we're not just on autopilot.
Theresa Hubbard [00:46:39]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:46:40]:
But you've chosen.
Theresa Hubbard [00:46:41]:
Right?
Walker Bird [00:46:42]:
Big difference, Right?
Theresa Hubbard [00:46:43]:
Absolutely.
Walker Bird [00:46:44]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:46:44]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:46:45]:
I like it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:46:46]:
Thank you.
Walker Bird [00:46:46]:
Thank you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:46:47]:
Yeah. Yeah. Any final thoughts?
Walker Bird [00:46:54]:
Hang in there. Yeah, we're all still figuring it out. I do think that we get. You get more of a sense of self, hopefully. But I don't want to be the same person always.
Theresa Hubbard [00:47:04]:
No.
Walker Bird [00:47:05]:
I do want to develop a sense of myself, though. Some core Beliefs and. But I'm still working on it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:47:13]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:47:13]:
You know, even at 56.
Theresa Hubbard [00:47:15]:
Absolutely.
Walker Bird [00:47:16]:
And that's okay, too. But the intentional part is really the biggest difference for me at this point in my life. And I think it could have been a lot earlier.
Theresa Hubbard [00:47:24]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:47:25]:
I'm choosing to do this, and these are the reasons why. Okay. And maybe in certain circumstances, like the law firm, you would still need, but you still might do some things differently.
Theresa Hubbard [00:47:38]:
Oh, for sure.
Walker Bird [00:47:39]:
That's what I.
Theresa Hubbard [00:47:41]:
There are plenty of things I would do differently.
Walker Bird [00:47:43]:
Yeah. Anyway, that's, I think, flexibility and grace for ourselves, but also the recognition that doing your work will give you that sense of self and then you can make decisions about how much you'll share or what role you're going to play in what situations. And will you adjust it as you go through that day in that situation? Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:48:08]:
Yeah. Just continuing to increase our awareness of ourself in different situations. And again, that's what this talk was all about was, you know, can I pay more attention to myself in different interactions so that I'm learning more about what I'm doing and why am I doing what I'm doing?
Walker Bird [00:48:31]:
Yeah. I think the intentional part, if I'm living intentionally, that brings a level of congruence with my presentation. Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:48:43]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:48:43]:
And it may not be all of who I am at all, you know, because my casual self is. Will be different than it is in the business world or in the courtroom.
Theresa Hubbard [00:48:52]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:48:53]:
But you still, by making the choice and having contemplated it, you create congruence, I think.
Theresa Hubbard [00:48:59]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:48:59]:
What do you think?
Theresa Hubbard [00:49:00]:
Oh, I agree.
Walker Bird [00:49:00]:
My. On track.
Theresa Hubbard [00:49:01]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The intentionality. Right. And again. Hmm. It's funny because when you said that, I was thinking of a very extreme example of someone saying, okay, I'm going to step into this role and it is crazy and I'm doing it anyway, is still going to be more congruent than if I'm doing it on autopilot. Right.
Walker Bird [00:49:33]:
Why does she act that way? Right. Why do I act that way? Yeah. No, I agree.
Theresa Hubbard [00:49:44]:
Yeah. Always interesting, always learning, always so much growth opportunities every day in our life. Yeah. Thanks for the conversation.
Walker Bird [00:50:00]:
Yeah. Thank you. Love you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:50:01]:
I love you too. Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth, and we strive to be more compassionate every day.