From Things to Healing - When Self-Investment Saves Relationships

Walker Bird [00:00:04]:
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life. Each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:32]:
Well, hello.

Walker Bird [00:00:33]:
Hello.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:34]:
How are you?

Walker Bird [00:00:36]:
I'm good.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:37]:
Good, Good. Well, you look good.

Walker Bird [00:00:40]:
Well, thank you.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:45]:
Yeah, you too, babe. So Walker's in Georgia, obviously not in studio with me today. Yeah. With all of his favorite things behind him.

Walker Bird [00:00:56]:
Yes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:57]:
Or thing. Yeah. So today we're going to talk about do we value our things more than we value ourselves, and as a consequence of that, our relationships as well. Yeah. So what do you think about what comes to mind when I ask you the first question?

Walker Bird [00:01:28]:
Well, we were having a conversation, and I just said it's so much easier to buy something like a thing. Right. Like, I fall. I. I mean, I fall for Facebook advertising all the time. I'll see the ad. I'm like, well, that's a pretty cool product.

Walker Bird [00:01:51]:
And then I'll go look at it online, try to find it, you know, on Amazon or just Google it or whatever to make sure it's legit. But over time, I'm sure I've spent a lot on those sorts of things. Yeah. Over the years and. But for years, I didn't spend money taking care of myself. Like going on retreat, for example.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:12]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:02:14]:
You know, or on master courses or, you know, things that would have a more lasting effect than just property. Right. Items.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:30]:
Yeah. How, since we're on that topic, part of this right now, what are the things that you think that you invest in yourself with that are not things? It's more about, you know, you and your relationships. How do you feel like you invest that money?

Walker Bird [00:02:54]:
Well. Well, it's in all kinds of relationships because professionally I go to a lot of continuing education. Now I'll travel, go to see the best lawyers in the country.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:07]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:03:08]:
Do their thing and have interactive practice sessions with them, those sorts of things. And that's a big difference than what I used to do. It's expensive, but, yeah, it's. It's just a step that I've made in valuing myself versus buying, you know, another suit or a shirt or those sorts of pattern or piece of furniture or whatever it might be. You know, probably furniture would be in keeping with what it costs to go on a retreat like that or personal wellness retreats. I am trying to go to a couple a year, at least now.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:48]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:03:51]:
So, you know, Sedona Mago being one and just digging in on emotional, mental, relationship and personal health items versus big dinners out all the time or a second car or, you know, there's so many things that you can spend that are just. It's on things and those are great, but they're passing versus things that can really take care of you. Right. And, and you know, thinking about the Facebook things, a lot of the Facebook things that I end up buying are like, you know, a special cushion for your chair or, you know, some new pillow for easing neck strain. And so I've got to temper it with that because I think those are really good purchases and they are for self care. You know, other things just trinkets or, you know, the latest gizmo that you can put on your desk, that's a levitating magnet thing or, you know, whatever. I mean, those are great. They're so cool and I think they are enriching to a certain degree, but it's not the same.

Theresa Hubbard [00:05:01]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:05:02]:
Same as going for five days to the desert to do meditation and qigong and personal work that is really difficult to delve into. Healing things that have happened over a lifetime. Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:05:25]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:05:25]:
That's a little different investment.

Theresa Hubbard [00:05:28]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:05:29]:
And I think it's just so easy and for so many years it was easiest to spend it on those, those temporal things.

Theresa Hubbard [00:05:41]:
Sure. You know, out.

Walker Bird [00:05:46]:
Just, you know, how many couches do you need in house? That sort of stuff. A new piece of artwork, whatever.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:00]:
Why do you think you started the shift towards valuing yourself and relationships more than things? And, and, and I'm saying it's like you're. You were there and you're here, but at some point you started shifting. What do you think that was about?

Walker Bird [00:06:27]:
The old way wasn't working. The pain of remaining the same became greater than the. The pain and the fear of changing.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:37]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:06:38]:
Yeah. How about you?

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:42]:
You know, it's interesting because what just popped into my head was, you know, when we, when I was growing up, we didn't have much when I was young. My mom didn't work and my dad did. And my dad made us very small amount of money. And there were, you know, you know, eight of us. I had a sister that passed away when she was young, so raising seven kids, we just didn't have much. And so like, even a television, we only had a television six months of the year. My dad hit it the other six months of the year and. Which was, I mean, upon reflection, fabulous.

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:36]:
He really wanted us to be doing things. And so I think when I started making money, things were valuable to me because it wasn't something I had a lot of growing up. And so I think I bought things because I could. And so I think there was some identity connected to the things that I bought because it was just so different, you know, than what I had the opportunity to growing up. And so I can. I mean, visually, like, when you started talking, I took me back to when, even when I was first married and decorating the house and, you know, things were important because somehow that was connected to who I thought I was and, you know, having, you know, that. And these were not expensive things, but they were, again, things I wouldn't normally have had the money to purchase. So.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:54]:
So there was some identity connected to the things, because I think in some way it made me feel better, probably more capable and competent. I'm not saying that I feel that way now, but then. And so I think there was. Wasn't paying much attention to myself when I was first married. I was just doing what I thought I should be doing. And then. And then I had an awareness, and we've talked about this before, that I, Teresa, wasn't okay, that I was aware I was not okay. And then, you know, when I chose to get divorced, I think I was 29, there was a choice I had to make in regards to money and spending.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:58]:
And it was going to change, you know, going from two incomes to one and having two small children. And there was a shift there for me when I made that choice, because then I didn't have the money. I was terrified, like, how am I going to make it on my own? And I remember. I mean, this is the craziest thing, but I was. I was so. And I don't know if I've told you this story or not, but I. I had learned to be responsible with money during my first marriage.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:48]:
And I was careful, but I was so naive, still so naive. And I was looking for a place to buy, preferably, and I didn't. I ended up, you know, renting. But this woman told me that she had a house for sale for me, and it was $14,000. And. And I in. And she had left me a message, and. And I called her back and I said, okay, I'm confused.

Theresa Hubbard [00:11:28]:
I mean, you're telling me about the house. $14,000. That can't possibly be what it is. And she said, no, really? And she. I remember she gave me a story. And in my mind, my very young, hopeful, naive mind, you know, Was trying to make it make sense and real and true. And you know, I even verified it by email. I mean it was.

Theresa Hubbard [00:11:51]:
I mean I really was trying to get the information, but I. But I really didn't understand that she had made a mistake. And she didn't understand she had made a mistake until I went to go look at the house and, and I think it was her son that showed it to me. And, and of course I was like, of course I want it. You know.

Walker Bird [00:12:15]:
There was a zero missing.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:17]:
Right, right. And. And I just remember being so devastated and I, you know, I showed him, you know, all the messages and he said, I hear you and I understand, but we are not selling you this house for $14,000. It is a hundred and I think it was $114,000 and his mom had just made an error. Right. But there was, you know, that was a. I mean it's interesting because I'm talking about it and there's like emotion that's coming.

Walker Bird [00:12:48]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:53]:
I so, you know, wanted to be okay and I so wanted to do, you know, it well, you know, financially and, and I in that period of time, I think was, you know, probably like over a week period of time and in just how much freedom it felt like I was gonna have and you know, I wasn't gonna have to, you know, struggle so much and then for that to be gone. I know that that was another shift for me, like in regards to non attachment of things because just with everything that was going on, there was a lot of attachment I had formed to that thing. And then having it gone, it was like, okay, how do I. How do I work through all of that connection to the thing. Right. Like if I had gotten that house, then I would have had more value.

Walker Bird [00:14:12]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:14]:
As opposed to renting. You know, there was, and, and I did end up renting. That is what I ended up doing. But there was a story attached to that that was, you know, really devastating at the time, feeling like some how all of a sudden I had failed. So. So I think for then it was again just another step in towards, you know, I have just. I choosing to believe in myself more than what this thing signifies for me. Anyway, that's what came to mind when you asked.

Walker Bird [00:15:03]:
Yeah. I'm sorry for your pain.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:06]:
Thanks, babe. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:15:08]:
I know you're saying that it was a good learning moment, but it's just so hard when we are, you know, it's. It's easy at this further end of the spectrum, you know, with a career well underway, you know, or almost Coming to a close for me, you know, to say, oh, well, I need to spend money on self care and, you know, going to retreat and that sort of stuff. And so it brings it really home to go back to that younger self, you know, middle to upper 20s or early 30s. And just trying to create a home for your children.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:47]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:15:50]:
But you came right through. And then renting was okay. Your value wasn't based on do I own this home?

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:56]:
Right, right. But I had to work through that.

Walker Bird [00:15:59]:
Sure. So can you share a little bit more about, you know, the working through it part?

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:07]:
Yeah. You know, for me, when I realized the reality of it. Right. And it started sinking in and then having a choice to make, I did choose instead of taking out a loan, which maybe at that point I. I could have afforded. I don't. Truthfully, I don't remember, but I obviously decided that I couldn't. I really made do with what I had.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:51]:
I chose to not create what I would have considered a financial burden or a heaviness. I remember that, you know, the place that I rented was full of, you know, hand me down furniture and. And I was able to get to a place in that period of time where having a place was enough, that my kids didn't. I cared. They didn't care. Like you said earlier, a safe place. Yeah. It's just that I.

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:48]:
What I imagined a safe place wasn't what my kids imagined a safe place being. So some awareness of that, being able to work through it because they didn't care. And I don't think I taught them to care about stuff. I just have an awareness now that I had identity connected to that, to the stuff, because of, you know, what I was able to provide, you know, for my family because of the work that I did. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:18:37]:
You think you're. You still have attachment to things.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:42]:
Oh, that is such a good question.

Walker Bird [00:18:48]:
Thank you. On a roll tonight, huh?

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:51]:
What?

Walker Bird [00:18:52]:
Thank you. I'm on a roll tonight.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:53]:
Oh, you're on a roll tonight. You know, I think it continues to get less. I mean, it's so interesting because there's so many things that come to mind, and we've talked about some different types of attachment before that, you know, that I've worked through. I like things to be well taken care of, you know, as best, you know, that I can. But, you know, I think about, like, the sense of responsibility that can come, you know, with, you know, having something that is, like, expensive. I don't know that I want to worry about something so much, you know, it's Interesting, because in that rental place, you know, what came to mind immediately when you asked the question was I remember getting up one night in the middle of the night, and I may have shared this on a different episode, but Cameron had taken a orange marker and he had written. He had written all over himself and the mattress and the wall, and I mean, it was everywhere. And.

Theresa Hubbard [00:20:20]:
And I remember, you know, my reaction being there's not supposed to be that much ink in one of those markers, like one of the Crayola markers. And I remember, like, that having that reaction. And so I think, again, I had some, but not so much that it got in the way of my relationships. You know, I think about, you know, Cameron taking things apart that we're working, and it's like. And I wasn't happy about it, but it's like, okay, it was a thing. And he's trying to figure it out. And I'm not, you know, going to get angry, you know, or shame him, because the relationship was more important to me than the thing. I remember the first time, you know, after I had gotten a house and Xander came in as a very young child and poured cranberry sauce on the light carpet and.

Theresa Hubbard [00:21:27]:
And it didn't ever come out, you know, like. Like there's some, you know, experience that I've had, you know, with things. I remember losing this necklace that. That felt like a lot of money to spend on myself and, you know, going through a lot of. I can't believe that you threw that away. I mean, I'm telling myself this. I can't. You know, I can't believe you lost that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:21:57]:
You know, I'm sure. How could you be that irresponsible? You know, those conversations and then getting to a place even, like, with myself where, you know, shaming myself was not helpful. Shaming myself wasn't going to fix anything. And so choosing the relationship with myself over the. The thing, too. And so I think it's been this just gradual process, you know, over time. I think about, you know, like, if. Like, some of the things that I have that I love.

Theresa Hubbard [00:22:43]:
I'm imagining, like, you know, the stainless steel trees above the fireplace. Like, if that I. That would be sad, but. But that is the extent of the emotion that I would feel if the. The. I don't know, that, like, the Gaia pottery mask that I got, you know, if that got broken, I would be sad, but I don't believe that I would. I don't believe that there is anything that I own that if it was lost, broken, destroyed, burnt, down that I would be devastated. I don't think that this point in my life I think I would just be like, okay, I mean there's nothing I can do about that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:44]:
So I don't think at this point I'm just trying to think.

Walker Bird [00:23:47]:
Do you think there's something retirement account?

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:51]:
Oh yeah. I don't even think it's funny because I ran. I don't know if I told you this but I ran into our financial advisor on the airplane. Did I tell you that? Oh, you didn't tell me that. Both ways. Both out to Phoenix. I was in Phoenix over the weekend. Luke was playing in the college national volleyball championships.

Theresa Hubbard [00:24:16]:
And so on the way out to Phoenix for that and on the way back from, from Phoenix, so Stevie's husband Dusty was on there. Anyway, so we had a conversation and you know, I even said something to him about, you know, I haven't looked. There's nothing I can do about that. I will, whatever, whatever is happening is happening and I will just keep going. So. And I think for me it's worrying about the things causes me stress over things that I just don't feel like I have any control over. And so I think is just something that I've worked on over the last 25 years, 30 years. I just keep working on the non attachment to things.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:23]:
It just can sound really silly. But the, the, the Lion King song, the Circle of Life just came to mind that I'm not going to start singing it. But anyway that is what came to mind. There's an acceptance piece. Yeah. You know, I, like you were mentioning earlier, learning to, you know, spending money on things that are helpful for me in the long term. And I'm not saying that there aren't short term things I spend that I, I spend money on short term things too. I'm not talking about that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:12]:
I'm talking about for the most part when I am spending money where I'm making a very intentional decision about it. I'm looking for the long term benefit for myself and my relationships. But I don't know that that's the message in our culture. And what comes to mind interestingly is the man we can spend a lot of money on quick fix things. You know, somebody sent me a link about a 300 water bottle you could buy and I'm like wow, that's fascinating. And so somebody they knew had bought one and, and I was like, wow. It just struck me how much money we can spend on things as opposed to like that the, the deeper emotional health or mental health or even physical health and then ultimately our relationships. Do you feel like you spend money on things that are not, I don't know, that don't have a long term impact on your life? And then what's that like for you to spend money on like a short term dopamine hit?

Walker Bird [00:28:27]:
Well, it depends on what it is. I mean, experiences may be short term, but I think they have impacts.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:33]:
Yeah, yeah.

Walker Bird [00:28:34]:
You know, and so when you said dopamine hit, I was thinking about skydiving or, you know, the dune buggy excursion and then, oh, sure, out west, you know, and, and so to me, those are absolutely worth the money.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:49]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:28:50]:
But do I need another lamp or another, you know, thing to sit on a shelf, that sort of stuff? And it's easy to, you know, it. I just keep getting that perspective when you, or have nothing, you know, versus when you have stuff. You know, it's easy to say when you have stuff. Well, stuff just doesn't matter that much. And I think it's a combination of a couple things. Number one, you have stuff, but number two, you've come, you've had enough stuff that you realize you could take this stuff and I'm going to still be the person that I am. I can say that. But then, you know, from my recent experience, I've got my place for sale and this is the first place that I bought myself.

Walker Bird [00:29:42]:
You know, nobody else telling me how to, what to buy it, well, how to decorate it, anything else. And so I, you know, accumulated stuff. And it's not ex, super expensive stuff, just little things like a little glass hummingbird. And it's things or things that we picked up on a trip, you know, that I put around a, a deer antler that you found. I mean, it didn't, it's not that it was a monetary value, but I still have value in those things and the value that, and I value myself by those things too. Even though I'd like to say I don't, because. And here's the exercise the universe just gave me, as you know, is I was out of state, the place goes up for sale, the realtor says, oh, don't worry about it, because I said, do I need to travel there and clean it up or whatever? She's like, no, we'll, I'm bringing in a stager, we'll take care of it, blah, blah, blah. Well, this is the first time in months that I've been here and I walk in and the things that matter to me, like the bull behind me that you bought me, it Was not cheap, but it wasn't super duper expensive.

Walker Bird [00:30:51]:
You know, all put away, shoved in closets and tucked in cabinets and kind of tossed, you know, and disresp. And that pissed me off.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:01]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:31:02]:
I mean, and I took it personally. And we were talking through it, and I mean, it was like, you know, that was. That was me. Oh, my stuff's not good enough for a buyer to see because they might think it's weird. And so. And you can tell there's still emotion around it as we're talking. And so I'd love to say I'm past, you know, caring now. If it burned in a fire, I would be sad it was gone.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:28]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:31:29]:
Like you said, you know, some of those things, they're just little things, but they mean something to me. A remembrance of the trip or a gift or the painting back there that Libby made for me, I would be really sad that that burned. But if they had taken that down, I would not be sad. I'd be pissed, you know, because that's. That I have personal value associated with it in that context.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:55]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:31:56]:
Think of that difference. I just said a whole lot about differences in where you are in life and money earning and all that. But the bigger point is the last one that I made, which is you can ha. You can have your value tied up in things, but it can also be circumstantial as to. If somebody does something intentionally to your things, not just steals it. Right. Because if somebody broke in or stole it, I'd still be sad, but I wouldn't feel the same way. Violated.

Walker Bird [00:32:26]:
Like I did when I walked in after the stager decided that stuff wasn't worthy. Throw you that curveball.

Theresa Hubbard [00:32:43]:
You know, it's interesting what I was. What came to mind was shame. And so two different things came to mind. There was something you said about the stage. You're not deciding that your things were worthy. So that's came to mind, like who you are. Like there's some part of you that is connected to these items. Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:31]:
And so it's like, you know, that shame piece of. I'm reflected in these items, and if these items get put in a closet, then I. My value is not enough. Right.

Walker Bird [00:33:53]:
You're making a statement about me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:57]:
I am.

Walker Bird [00:33:59]:
No, the person put the stuff in the closet.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:02]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:34:03]:
Especially when they just toss it in there. I mean, that's like, you know, that was the cherry on top, too. Isn't that fascinating? I think that's fascinating. If somebody had stolen it, they would see it as having value. And I would be less offended. Somebody just grabbed it and threw it in a closet because they thought a buyer would think, you know, whatever it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:30]:
Would be, it would turn a buyer off. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:34:32]:
Yeah. We're so complex.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:34]:
I'm sorry, babe. If that is an interesting awareness. Right. If someone stole it, you'd be like, well, I don't blame them. Right. But if someone puts it in a closet. Yes. Not respectfully.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:48]:
Not. Doesn't. Did not feel respectful. Yeah. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:34:57]:
Well, that could be another three episodes. But I mean, it. It. So I want to. I want to say, you know, I recognize that it. It is from spending time and money becoming a better person, being better at professional or personal relationships is. Is. Has so much more value to me, but at the same time, there are still things that I associate.

Walker Bird [00:35:29]:
Value. My value with as well, you know, and how it's treated.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:34]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:35:35]:
And I, you know, can I move past that? You know, I hope so.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:43]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, babe. I mean, life is so complex, you know, and what gets laid in front of us, you know.

Walker Bird [00:35:58]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:59]:
We can't predict it. All right. And maybe it isn't something you ever have to end up choosing fully. I don't know. But the other thing that came to mind when you asked the question was, is it that we value things more than we value ourselves and our relationships? I mean, I mean, truly, I don't mean like, oh, I value my relationships. I mean, valuing it enough to put in consistent effort to have healthy relationship is what I'm talking about. You know, is it easier for us to spend, you know, $1,000 on a couch than it is for us to spend $1,000 on therapy or on experiences that help us grow or, you know, even medical things, you know, that could be really helpful for us. You know, just what comes to mind is, you know, the procedure that Chris is getting ready to have and just, you know, that expense and how hard that can be for us to, like, really take care of ourselves.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:53]:
It's like, oh, I don't need that. I can do without that when it. The reality is, is the experience or the process could be life changing.

Walker Bird [00:38:09]:
Sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:12]:
But we can easily spend the money on a thing more than our growth, our wellness, our wholeness. You know, it was really interesting over the weekend. We had some free time in between games and Luke and Xander and I went to a mall. I can't even tell you the last time I went to a mall. I don't even know. And all I could think of while I was walking through the mall Was we spend so much money on things.

Walker Bird [00:39:00]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:01]:
That really have no value to us for most of us, beyond the purchase of it. I mean, it was. I was floored. I mean, I, I only ended up going into, I don't know, maybe two stores because I, you know, I walked past and I'm like, I don't need anything in there. And another one. I don't need anything there. I don't need anything in there. I don't need anything in there.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:32]:
And so ultimately Luke got some clothes in one store and Xander got clothes in another store and that was about it. But I was very aware being in the mall of how much money we spend on things. It's amazing actually, how much money we spend on things. I now want to do some chat GPT research on how much we spend on. On things versus things that contribute to our long term wellness. Because that would. I probably don't want to know the answer actually to that.

Walker Bird [00:40:22]:
Yeah, it would be eye opening, I'm sure. And even if we turned over our bank records to chat, we would probably find out things that we think are. We're not doing, but we still are.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:37]:
Yeah. You mean you like spending money on things we don't even know we're spending money on? Oh, yeah. I think there's like programs out there that help you find out if you're spending money on things that you're. You forgot you're spending money on like subscription things. Yeah. Because it is amazing. I mean, and I don't drink coffee, so that's the savings. I don't drink alcohol.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:01]:
That's a savings. There are things that I don't consume that I know. You know, if I stopped and got a coffee every day, you know, at a drive through, I think it's like $6 or something like that. I can't even imagine what that, you know, adds up to. And, and there's a balance. Right. I mean, maybe I need that coffee to get through that day. Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:34]:
But is the, is the thing reinforcing stuckness for us as opposed to providing growth? And where is the balance? I'm not saying I have the answer. Between, you know, something that brings me, you know, pleasure in the short term versus effort for the long term. What are you thinking?

Walker Bird [00:42:10]:
That's true, what you said. I'm just agreeing with you. I want it to be that we recognize that and take steps to move in that direction. It doesn't mean deny, deny yourself. Yeah, right. I mean, there's a self worth piece associated with that too. But it also helps you prioritize, you know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:39]:
Yeah, yeah. Where's my energy going to go? Where's my focus going to go? Where are my resources going to go?

Walker Bird [00:42:46]:
Yeah, yeah. There's one last thing that I'd like to just point out and that is in the, in the personal wellness world, especially in the Buddhist community, there are options available that are income related. Right. A lot of it is, you know, free will offering, they'll give a suggestion. But if you have less and still go. And even to the, you know, residential retreats.

Theresa Hubbard [00:43:25]:
Yes.

Walker Bird [00:43:26]:
Have a stair step that can be income based, etc. And there's also work opportunities at different places like Esalen for example.

Theresa Hubbard [00:43:35]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:43:36]:
Center out by Big Sur that we've been to, you know, and so those things, it, it, you can still take those actions even when you're, you know, you know, earlier in the spectrum of life, career and all those things. And so it's just important to me, you know, seeing the young you struggling to have a home for your children, it's just seeing that part and it's just so important because what you've talked so many times about, the, the gift to your children of actually taking time to go take care of yourself and to open yourself up through going on retreat. Right?

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:12]:
Yeah, yeah.

Walker Bird [00:44:14]:
Learn how to regulate emotionally and just all of those things. And so I, I, it just struck me that it was important to point out that there are options available for that sort of work even if you don't have a lot of financial needs.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:31]:
Yeah, such a great point, babe. From the personal work perspective. And I would say that, you know, for people that are listening, who are unfamiliar, you know, with the, the Buddhist community, my experience in the different retreats we've gone to are like there, it's really just about presence and so really just trying to convey the message that it's not about, you know, anybody converting anybody into anything or away from anything. It really is just in my experience, places that I've been, that it's really just about holding space, you know, for you. And there are opportunities that are often given. Like you were mentioning about different, you know, ways of being able to, to do the work in ways that are less expensive so that more people have access is one of the things that we want to do too with the work that we're doing. It's important for us. And you know, please bear with Walker and I as we navigate this world as in these areas where we are, you know, trying to figure out how do it all.

Theresa Hubbard [00:45:54]:
Well, because it's complex but that is something that's important to us. We want people to be able to have resources. And so, you know, we even, you know, just recently took our full, you know, 10 essential skills course and created a mini course from that that we're going to be offering at no cost, just to give people an opportunity to do some of the work, because we just find it, you know, so valuable and so important to have resources where you can really start exploring for yourself your role in relationships and some tools to start learning. So, yeah, I appreciate you bringing that up. There are a lot of resources out there. Finding them, I think, sometimes can be difficult. So, yeah, as we wrap up, babe, just thinking about, you know, do we value things more than we value ourself? And then ultimately that feeds into our relationship. What do you think are some of the biggest benefits or the biggest unexpected joys that have come from the.

Theresa Hubbard [00:47:30]:
The work that you've done to shift your focus and your resources?

Walker Bird [00:47:40]:
Fix the relationship with my daughter.

Theresa Hubbard [00:47:44]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:47:44]:
If I had continued down the path I was going, you know, she would not. I would never see her. And I would speak. I mean, maybe. But it was. It would be difficult and awkward and sad and so. And maybe I'd be dead, you know, and so that, to me, is the biggest piece that I'm grateful for. Just a huge.

Theresa Hubbard [00:48:18]:
Yeah, makes me teary.

Walker Bird [00:48:22]:
I mean, she just was here for four days, as, you know, at her request, just to be two of us. And, yeah, that's. She's 25. That's a pretty unusual event, and at least in my experience. And so I was telling everybody, and it was her idea. And the reason. The reason for that is having started to, you know, work on emotional regulation and work on pausing between stimulus and response, which is emotional regulation, too, but work on being curious and just, you know, all the elements of communication in our course that you just mentioned. And so it's been a.

Walker Bird [00:49:02]:
It's been a long road. And work on what are my triggers from bad things that happened to me, you know, as a child. And. And it's all of those steps that are. That moved me forward to the point. And I'm not perfect, but part of that is she recognizes it, and I acknowledge it, too, that, you know, I'm doing. I am. I'm working hard, I'm interested, and she's worth the time for me to do those things.

Walker Bird [00:49:30]:
And once she was valued, then I became valued and started valuing myself, too. And so it's just this growing event. So that's a long answer to the question. It's a big deal because that's my baby.

Theresa Hubbard [00:49:45]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:49:46]:
And yeah, it. I mean, you want to talk about do things matter? And I mean, you know this. You've got four. And it just. I can't think of anything, frankly, that's more important.

Theresa Hubbard [00:50:10]:
So is it accurate to say that as you've grown and things became less important to you, it saved your relationship with your daughter?

Walker Bird [00:50:25]:
Things became less important and. And working on being more emotionally mature. Non. Re. Or less reactive. Because I can still lose my, um. It's. It was the shift.

Walker Bird [00:50:46]:
It's not just the things aren't important. It's the shift towards I'm important. I'm important, work on those things. And when I do that on myself, I become more available in relationship, a better partner and relationship, whether it's partners with you, partners with people I'm working with, or with my daughter. But the biggest thing that came to mind was just that, because we were at the point where she would talk to me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:14]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:51:15]:
For 18 months. Was it two years? I don't remember it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:20]:
I don't remember.

Walker Bird [00:51:22]:
So that, I mean, that's a long road and a lot of effort on my part become better.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:32]:
So shifting your focus from things to yourself, growth and healing in relationship was life changing?

Walker Bird [00:51:45]:
Oh, absolutely.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:47]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:51:48]:
And still is. It's not as if I've arrived. I wish I. I wish I had, but I haven't. I mean, I. I mean, part of me wishes I had, but, you know, I recognize it's just. That's our process and it's our. It's our reason for being.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:08]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:52:09]:
My opinion.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:10]:
Yeah. I'm so glad for you, babe.

Walker Bird [00:52:16]:
Yeah, me too. Me too.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:18]:
Yeah. Yeah. Libby is a lovely human.

Walker Bird [00:52:22]:
She is. Yeah, she is. And so are you. I mean, it. And it's where it's changed our relationship too. I mean, just continue to grow. And if I wasn't, then we wouldn't be, I don't think. You know, I mean, it's.

Walker Bird [00:52:39]:
You always say the most important part to you is to be in relationship with somebody who continues to keep growing.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:46]:
Yes.

Walker Bird [00:52:47]:
And, yeah, I've still got lots to learn, lots of growing to do still, but I've done a lot of growing that's helped us.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:56]:
Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

Walker Bird [00:52:58]:
That too.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:00]:
Thanks, babe. Yeah, yeah, me too. The journey never ends, you know, there's always another new awareness, you know, to work on. And while it. It can be hard in the moment, ultimately what I know is there's always freedom for me on the other side of the awareness and the understanding about what's driving the reaction that I'm having. Yeah. Well, thank you. Interesting conversation.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:30]:
Yeah. Didn't know that's where we were going to end up with your relationship with Libby. But it's really powerful, you know, awareness, you know, all of those pieces that, you know, got you to that place where you are now. Yeah. I'm happy for you and for Libby.

Walker Bird [00:53:50]:
Thank you.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:51]:
Yeah. I love you. Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth and we strive to be more compassionate every day.