Navigating Anxiety Triggers in Relationships
Theresa Hubbard and Walker Bird
Ever felt your nervous system hijacked without understanding why? In this vulnerable conversation, Theresa and Walker share a personal journey through unexpected anxiety and the relationship dynamics that emerge when one partner is triggered.
What You'll Learn
- How various triggers can activate the nervous system without conscious awareness
- Why protective responses like anger often mask deeper anxiety
- Practical tools for both self-regulation and co-regulation in relationships
In this honest discussion, we explore what happens when anxiety manifests in daily life and how partners can either amplify or soothe these moments. Whether you're navigating your own anxiety or supporting someone who is, this episode offers compassionate insights and actionable strategies for nervous system health.
Join us in the 10 Essential Skills to Build Stronger and Healthier Relationships course—now open for enrollment—and subscribe for more conversations like this.
Chapters
00:00 Welcome + Setting the Scene
03:30 When Triggers Activate Anxiety
08:00 Grounding Without Judgment
13:45 Tools That Help in Real-Time
18:20 Anger, Protection, and the Body
25:30 Walker's Inner Response + Coping Strategies
33:00 Co-Regulation vs. Reactivity
41:00 Relationship Dynamics + Public Conflict
49:00 Building Grace + Resilience
55:00 Closing Reflections
Episode Links & Resources
Join us in the 10 Essential Skills to Build Stronger and Healthier Relationships course
Watch the episode on YouTube
My Inner Knowing Full episode link
My Inner Knowing website
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My Inner Knowing Instagram
Episode Transcript
Walker Bird [00:00:04]:
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life. Each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:32]:
Well, hello. Hello. How are you?
Walker Bird [00:00:36]:
I'm good.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:36]:
Good.
Walker Bird [00:00:37]:
You're looking particularly beautiful today.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:38]:
Oh, thank you. That's my favorite shirt.
Walker Bird [00:00:41]:
I know, I love it too.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:42]:
I haven't worn it in a few.
Walker Bird [00:00:44]:
Years, so it's a really good color on you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:46]:
Oh, thanks, babe.
Walker Bird [00:00:49]:
Well, today we're talking about anxiety.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:57]:
That totally wasn't even playing.
Walker Bird [00:00:59]:
Exactly. Way to.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:03]:
Oh, yeah. So. So this came to mind for me on Friday night. We went to dinner with some friends and they had picked this restaurant that you and I had never been to. They had been to before. And it was very tasty. And we were sitting like semi outside, like in a garden kind of area. And it was lovely.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:32]:
It was away from the restaurant. We were the only people in there for the majority of the time. However, it was less insulated and closer to the street.
Walker Bird [00:01:43]:
Yeah. Thin walled, uninsulated and rolled down. Plastic.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:47]:
Yeah. Essentially. Yeah. And so what I noticed, and it was downtown. So busy. Very busy.
Walker Bird [00:01:58]:
Under the highway.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:59]:
Under the highway. And as the night went on, what I found for me was that it was harder and harder for me to be in the conversation or hear the conversation. And there were an incredible amount of motorcycles. And so I don't. We're not typically out on a Friday night. And we're definitely not in that part of town. And so I don't know if that's normal that there are just groups of people on motorcycles who are out being. And, you know, gunning, not just on a motorcycle, but being very loud.
Theresa Hubbard [00:02:41]:
And so that was a different experience for my body. I am not someone who watches television. I take in news very moderately. And I'm very intentional about taking care of myself and my body throughout the day. And so that was an environment unfamiliar to me. And it only got louder the longer we were there as more and more people were out. And what I noticed was that I felt very anxious and I felt it very much in my body. And I felt like it was best if I didn't say as much because I felt like I might be more, I don't know, judgy or reactive or something.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:34]:
And then I also noticed that I started to get angry.
Walker Bird [00:03:43]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:43]:
As well.
Walker Bird [00:03:44]:
Yeah. And that's a Common response. I have, too.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:47]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:03:48]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:48]:
Yeah. It was so interesting because, I mean, I don't feel angry often, and if I do, it's typically around something that's happened, not just sensory and a sound piece. And so that was really interesting for me to have that contrast that I don't normally have, because we don't go out to places like that. I mean, we go out to dinner and stuff, but it's not. I mean, with people and friends, and we'll be out and that'll be fine. But I really think the. That constant. The motorcycle and the.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:26]:
In the end, it never ceased. You know, I mean, or it would cease and it would start back up and then cease and start back up. And so I think my body just kept having this reaction to the sound.
Walker Bird [00:04:36]:
Agreed. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:37]:
Okay. And so I didn't say a lot going home, because I was realizing that I felt angry, even though there wasn't anything to be angry about. And I think when we got home, you started doing laundry, and I. Oh, no, you were a little bit behind me. Right. Because we had driven separately.
Walker Bird [00:05:00]:
You dropped me off.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:01]:
I had dropped Patty off. Right, right. I dropped Patty off at her house and then went home and put on some night clothes, and I lit candles and lit some incense and turned the lights off, and I was just sitting in the living room.
Walker Bird [00:05:19]:
That universe was probably stepping in on my behalf and yours to give us a little bit of separation so you could regulate a little bit before, you know, my appearance at your house.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:29]:
Right, yeah.
Walker Bird [00:05:31]:
Not just because that's. It's not your normal place to get angry.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:36]:
Right, right, right.
Walker Bird [00:05:37]:
And I have a hard time with anger, so.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:40]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:05:41]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:42]:
So I was very. I mean, I was aware that I was very deliberate. Like, just don't look at your phone, don't check email. Just sit in the dark with the candles lit and some incense and just breathe. Yes. And I feel like by the time you got there, I was. I was still activated. I could still feel it in my body, but I.
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:16]:
I didn't feel as out of control about it. Like, I felt like I knew that I was on the downhill side of it, but it really took a lot of awareness and intention for me to get to that place.
Walker Bird [00:06:30]:
Yes.
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:31]:
Yeah. What are you thinking?
Walker Bird [00:06:34]:
Just. I know that you typically will feel your feet on the floor and just all that whole process we refer to as grounding.
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:45]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:06:47]:
And it's just. It's. It's. How do you think this experience was so much different than your normal.
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:57]:
Normal experience of feeling anxious?
Walker Bird [00:07:00]:
Yeah. Enough for you to just want to have this episode about it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:07:08]:
You know, I think for me it was. I think we can. I think we can practice. I think there's a lot of information out there, whether you have. Whether you access it or not or whether you read about it or see reels about it. I think there's a lot of information about anxiety in regards to specific situations. But I don't know, is there a lot of conversation about when we feel anxiety. But it's really more sensory focused than topic focused.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:02]:
So if I feel anxiety around a particular topic, I can have a conversation with myself. You know, I can challenge the thoughts or whatever. But this was. I had to allow my body the space to re-regulate and the conversation with myself wasn't enough for it to just happen.
Walker Bird [00:08:27]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:28]:
And so for me the topic is important because I think there's so much that goes into us being aware of our anxiety, having whatever conversation we need to have to help ourself find safety and groundedness. But also do we give ourselves the space and do the people around us allow the space without them maybe getting concerned that needing the space then means something else as opposed to our body really just needs to find whatever quiet or space or you know, music or feet in the grass or whatever. So I just want to make sure that we talk about it from that aspect too. And again, because that experience was so in contrast to my normal daily life, it stands out bigger for sure.
Walker Bird [00:09:33]:
Yeah, I've got a comment and a question. The comment is just my observation because I'm sitting at the table next to you. It. You can. The traffic is. Is constant and it's up. There's a bridge up above us. It's a major interstate highway that is raised at that location.
Walker Bird [00:09:50]:
And so there's the constant going across and then intermittent traffic, which I think our bodies can get used to. I mean, there's at least a regulation. It may be irritating because it's so loud, but we can get used to that as long as there's some consistency to it. We have an expectation.
Theresa Hubbard [00:10:08]:
Yes, yes.
Walker Bird [00:10:11]:
My experience that the. They were glass pack mufflers, either motorcycles or trucks because I saw a couple of low, low riding, you know, 34 Chevy trucks, that sort of thing, you know, jacked up and. But it would just. It was like a chainsaw that loud. Somebody starting a chainsaw two feet from your head.
Theresa Hubbard [00:10:32]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:10:33]:
And then you. There was no way to anticipate the next time that was going to happen. So think maybe our bodies start to settle down and then you're jarred again each time. And because there's no consistency to it, it's just whenever either the same person came around the block, you know, after 10 blocks or half mile, whatever they were doing, or it was just the next one that came along.
Theresa Hubbard [00:10:56]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:10:56]:
That's just my observation. And the. It was irritating to me, but I didn't sense anxiety about it to the extent that you did. And I wouldn't have known that you had that anxiety because you handled it really well. Which is the next question.
Theresa Hubbard [00:11:15]:
Yes.
Walker Bird [00:11:15]:
And that is, you know, they're with friends, we haven't had dinner with them in a long time. And you were having a really difficult experience based on what you've said.
Theresa Hubbard [00:11:27]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:11:28]:
How did you regulate yourself to continue the conversation versus just standing up and saying, I am leaving, I'm getting angry and I'm out. And this was a three hour dinner. @ least.
Theresa Hubbard [00:11:44]:
It was, it was, it was a three hour dinner. I wanted it to. Well, I don't want anyone to ever have a bad experience because of me. So we can start there. Okay.
Walker Bird [00:12:21]:
There's a lot of emotion there. What is that?
Theresa Hubbard [00:12:26]:
A certain level of practice self denial. Like in the moment, like I can be aware that I'm feeling dysregulated, but I'm not going to make it about me. I'm going to do what I can do to help myself feel regulated as best I can in that situation. And so for that particular moment, it was, you know, I think, really just drinking water and I had gotten a virgin mojito and that was gone. And that was really helpful because it was, it was, you know, very sour from the lime and that was helpful.
Walker Bird [00:13:14]:
And then how was it helpful?
Theresa Hubbard [00:13:17]:
I think it just would shift because I don't normally drink that. It, you know, think I mostly drink water. And so even having water with a lot of lime in it, a lot of lime and then whatever else was in there was a different enough taste for me that, I don't know, I think it just made my brain interested in it, if that makes sense. So it could like take my brain off this kind of unexpected sound thing that you were talking about that my body couldn't predict. But the drink was pleasant and I could find some predictive piece there. So I knew that every time I took a sip that I would enjoy it and it was different. That was helpful, you know, definitely making sure that I was staying grounded, really trying to focus on what everybody was sharing was helpful. I think the, the space itself was cozy.
Walker Bird [00:14:31]:
Yeah, it was, it was cute.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:32]:
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think that.
Walker Bird [00:14:34]:
And intimate. And just like, three tables in this room, they built on.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:38]:
Yeah, yeah. So I think all of those things helped. I don't. The greater awareness comes later.
Walker Bird [00:14:49]:
Right, Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:49]:
Like, so dinner's over. I'm in the car, we're driving back, and I'm away. Even as we're talking, the three of us are talking. I'm processing, you know, what was happening for me and what I'm feeling in my body and what's real. What's not real. Like, I'm, you know, working through all of that, and then, you know, I don't want to stay in this state, and so what do I need to do? And I was the one that was driving, so there wasn't a ton I could do until we got home. And then. But then I did immediately start to take care of myself.
Walker Bird [00:15:28]:
Yeah. Was that the night? I mean, this is just of interest. Another thing that's comforting to us to help us regulate. I think you came and laid your head on my shoulder. It was after. We were that way from, I don't know, 15, 20 minutes. You're like, I think my body finally just settled down.
Theresa Hubbard [00:15:45]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Walker Bird [00:15:47]:
Which, yeah, I love, of course. Instead of, 'You really eff'ed me up.' I think. I mean, was it just a need to be held by you?
Theresa Hubbard [00:15:58]:
Oh, it was very helpful.
Walker Bird [00:16:00]:
Sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:00]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:16:01]:
And I think, you know, it's common. That's a common human healing tool. Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:08]:
Yeah. After. Yeah. Once you got home and, you know, settled in, got your laundry started. Yeah. And then, you know, very aware that. That, you know, laying my head on your chest, you know, and us just being quiet, you know, together, was really helpful. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:31]:
I do remember saying that now, like, whew. Okay. I think my. My body's finally releasing all of that.
Walker Bird [00:16:39]:
Right. I'm not going to get the jolting scare again.
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:44]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Walker Bird [00:16:46]:
A thought that came to mind about your process at the table. You know, my observation of you through dinner was you were more animated than usual when you spoke, so you didn't get insular, but it was. There was, like, a forcefulness to it, and not in a bad way. Don't interpret my. What I'm saying that way, but it was different than normal. And I just thought maybe you were excited because we hadn't had dinner with these people in a while, and there was interesting, you know, things to share about, things that are happening for us and so.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:17]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:17:17]:
But also, when. When you're looking for tools that will help you, when you can't just Dash or choose not to dash from the room. Right. Either can't or make a conscious choice after you realize what's happening and you're working on grounding. Another tool that you've taught me is. Is scent or other sensory.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:39]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:17:39]:
Things. And so the lime water, to me is a way of bringing. Getting yourself present. It's like. It's almost, you know, akin to smelling salts or. And what we use typically are essential oils. And that experience with the lime water is a way. Well, I don't have my essential oils, you know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:58]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:17:58]:
Nifty kit to pull out. I didn't bring that. And so if just becoming present and realizing, hey, that is something that can help me do the same thing, at least to maintain while this is still jolting ways for us to care for ourselves until we can get that space that we need.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:19]:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Walker Bird [00:18:22]:
I'm glad that. I mean, it's just so for you to be present enough to even notice that the lime juice was the helping. If I'd known that. I've gone and gotten you a bowl of lime. Oh, baby.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:37]:
Thanks, baby.
Walker Bird [00:18:39]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:42]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:18:43]:
I've got another question for you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:45]:
Yes.
Walker Bird [00:18:45]:
Where did you first feel it in your body, the anxiety that was coming from that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:50]:
Yeah. You know, it's interesting that you asked that because it was different than normal because I don't get anxiety so much anymore. I mean, it happens, but it is uncommon. I used to carry it, like, in my gut all the time. And, you know, I've really put a lot of effort over the last 20 some years to release from my body, you know, so that I could be in my body. And this was more in, like, my upper back, which I don't know, and not my shoulders, but like my upper back. Like, almost like a. I mean, as you're talking about it now, like, kind of like a protective, like, space.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:30]:
I mean, I don't know how to describe it, but yes. It wasn't like I was carrying tension in my shoulders. It was really like a. My body was, like, protecting.
Walker Bird [00:19:38]:
Sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:39]:
So, yeah. Much more in my back, which I.
Walker Bird [00:19:41]:
Don't normally sounds like a warrior response.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:44]:
Almost.
Walker Bird [00:19:45]:
Seriously.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:46]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And really having. Which, you know, to me would explain, you know, even probably the anger piece that came with it too.
Walker Bird [00:19:57]:
Sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:57]:
Because that was surprising. I was like, oh, I am really angry. And I literally do not have a reason. Reason to be angry. But I am feeling really angry right now. This is so interesting. Yeah, yeah.
Walker Bird [00:20:10]:
I'm thinking about, you know, because, you know, I'm working through a Process of how do I handle it better when you get angry.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:16]:
Right, right, right.
Walker Bird [00:20:17]:
And so I'm just like, I'm really glad that didn't boil out on the ride home or something, you know, But, I mean, we all do it. We.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:25]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:20:25]:
It can be. If we don't stay present or recognize we're doing it, we can be, you know, angry and lash out at the people we love, you know, the most.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:36]:
Yes.
Walker Bird [00:20:37]:
Because I guess there's safety in doing that for the most part. But it's familiar and. And those sorts of things. So in any event, I'm glad it didn't go that way.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:45]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:20:46]:
But I also, as a learning tool, you know, part of my learning process around it is recognizing why is she. Because that's not how she normally talks to me.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:57]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:20:57]:
What's making that. You know, and that. But without having to dig at you, hey, you know, what's going on? I mean, that's one way I could go. But I think first, internally to recognize she may be feeling anxiety. So let me sit with that and give her a little bit of grace here. First.
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:17]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:21:18]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:19]:
Yeah. Getting curious.
Walker Bird [00:21:20]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:21]:
First. Yeah. Absolutely. I think we so often take things personally, which I think is our work. Right. To be more curious than to take things so personally.
Walker Bird [00:21:32]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:33]:
And so I think for sure, what might be happening for her, I think is a good question to ask ourselves. But also, you know, because every situation is so different, can we say, you know, what's happening for you right now, but with the genuine curiosity and care. Right. Not what's happening for you right now. What are you doing? Right, right. But, you know, Trul, you know, what's happening for you right now. Right. Demonstrating care.
Walker Bird [00:22:04]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:04]:
And concern. Is there something that I can do?
Walker Bird [00:22:07]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:07]:
To be supportive of you, I think would go a lot way. A long way. And for me, you know, when you ask, I can typically tell you, I just need you to hug me or hold me or whatever. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:22:22]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:23]:
But we didn't end up having to have that conversation that night.
Walker Bird [00:22:26]:
I mean, but, you know, it's just interesting because it's like my anxiety feeds off of. Of the. The. What could have been your anger from your own anxiety. Right. And then I'm anxious and, you know, it's just part of my work right now is how do I recognize that and how do I regulate myself, you know, because it touches Right. On things that happen to me as a child. Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:49]:
Yeah. Did you ask me if I was angry at you?
Walker Bird [00:22:54]:
I know I have in the last couple of Days?
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:56]:
No, but I mean. And I think. I mean, I remember saying no, but I was wondering if he did it.
Walker Bird [00:23:05]:
I don't know if it was related or not. It may have been.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:07]:
May have been? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Walker Bird [00:23:10]:
I think maybe it was okay.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:12]:
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. It seemed like you came in and you were like, are you angry at me? And I was like, no.
Walker Bird [00:23:17]:
Well, it was. When you start throwing, you know, you'll like, snap things.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:22]:
Oh.
Walker Bird [00:23:22]:
And it's just a little bit firmer toss of things. But that may have been the next morning. I don't know. Whatever.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:28]:
I don't remember.
Walker Bird [00:23:29]:
But in any event, I just. My experience of anxiety is I get. And so in my body, it's right here, right by the solar plexus going up towards my heart. And. Yeah, just a piece that I'm working on. But, you know, I've just started this, babe, and it's like recognizing, but also talk, you know, and I've heard this. You just don't get it until you finally start to get it. And then it may be I have to get it again.
Walker Bird [00:23:56]:
But right now, the getting it piece is, hey, you know, I see you. It's my little boy, right. My inner child that had bad experiences when women got angry.
Theresa Hubbard [00:24:09]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:24:11]:
And it just. Take a breath. I'm here, you know, and I can be with your reaction to this. And so I'm having that inner dialogue or trying to have that inner dialogue now. And then, you know, after a little while of just allowing that experience to be right, you know. Well, my. I'm angry now because that's, you know, threatening. It's.
Walker Bird [00:24:35]:
It's threatening me. Not threatening me presently, but threatening.
Theresa Hubbard [00:24:39]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:24:40]:
Making. Remember, threats from the past.
Theresa Hubbard [00:24:42]:
Right, right.
Walker Bird [00:24:43]:
But not even cogent. Right. Not substance that I remember specifically. So, anyway, just. That's another thing to keep in mind is just how we're pinging off each other. And it may ping your own anxiety and what do you do with it? That's one. Another method in addition to grounding and, you know, sensory ways to bring yourself present, but also just recognizing. Hey, hold on just a second.
Walker Bird [00:25:10]:
Settle down, settle down. And it may be an angry teenager that's responding, you know, sometimes, too.
Theresa Hubbard [00:25:16]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:25:17]:
And so I'm really trying, just so you know, so to work on those things. But also, if it's my teenager or young, you know, adult, just, hey, settle down. Let's give this a minute. And I. I see. I see your pain, you know, whatever it is. And it's a. It's an interesting exercise.
Walker Bird [00:25:36]:
And sometimes I'm just like, this is just bullshit.
Theresa Hubbard [00:25:39]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:25:41]:
But more, more recently, it's actually, I think, changing perspective. So, yeah, I can feel the anxiety now just talking about your anger.
Theresa Hubbard [00:25:54]:
Okay. Okay. So I think sometimes we can talk a lot about our process. I'm wondering if it would be helpful for. For both of us to kind of go through like the condensed version. Like if you can you just take a moment without the explanation, just focus on the process. If you're feeling like, say, my anxiety or anger or perceived anger, whatever, it doesn't matter. Or perceived some other situation outside of our relationship, can you take a moment and close your eyes and share with us just you walking yourself through a situation.
Walker Bird [00:26:38]:
Sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:38]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:26:39]:
Okay. In the way I'd like it to be or the way that it is sometimes.
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:44]:
The way that it is sometimes. Okay.
Walker Bird [00:26:56]:
You express anger at a level that is not your norm. Right. You're animated, upset, maybe anxious. And I feel like my typical initial reaction is what's word is going on, you know, and how can I support you? And then there may be an end when, if you are unable to settle that, it's still there for me. Then the anxiety starts to build here, you know, and it's just, it's happening. And if I, if I'm not recognizing that that's happening, then I'm interior on the inside. I'm amping up. You know, it's like getting ready to fight or flee.
Walker Bird [00:27:42]:
Right. And so. And I may be freezing in between, but ultimately, you know, my freeze turns into. It can turn into rage, it can turn into fleeing as well or a rageful flee. And so recognizing that, that's, you know, I had to be very still and very quiet as a child. So I know how to disappear in a rest. You know, I was the youngest, and then there was lots of things that went on with stepfathers, et cetera. And so.
Walker Bird [00:28:17]:
So if I, if I don't have the tools or take the steps in between, there's a panic inside. And I can feel it right now. You know, it's a. It's a panic about what's going to happen next. And then if the next reaction is anger or even a rejection by you, then it's just. It's like the pot is at 211 degrees and it just went to 212. And 212 is the degree that water boils. And then the pot just effing boils right on over for me.
Walker Bird [00:28:50]:
And it's like I'm trying to, you Know, lash out cause, you know, cause emotional damage. I'm not a violent smash things, break the wall, break the window, you know, threaten you, that type of person. But they're still rage.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:11]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:29:13]:
And so, you know, in the past with my ex wife, it would typically turn into verbal abuse, frankly. You know, I mean, if we were both doing it to each other, but, you know, I would use horrible language, you know, bad words. And with you, that comes out very rarely. But in any event, then it's just on. And that's my experience. And then it's just. It's hard to bring it back in, you know, to rein it in. At that point, it's already boiled out and it's just a mess.
Walker Bird [00:29:57]:
How's that for honesty?
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:59]:
Yeah, that's helpful.
Walker Bird [00:30:01]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:01]:
Yeah. So once that happens, you get to 2:12 and it's boiled over. How do you get grounded again after that? What's it like for you?
Walker Bird [00:30:20]:
You know, it's interesting. I think I still eat a lot of it. Probably still getting sick, you know, gallbladder surgery, previously cancer, those things. But I think I eat it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:39]:
Okay, so food. So right now.
Walker Bird [00:30:43]:
No, no, I'm talking about I eat the emotion.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:46]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:30:46]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:47]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:30:47]:
I mean, but food is in the past, has been a resort. Sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:53]:
Yeah. So after that, soothing. Right, Right. How do you soothe yourself now? Right.
Walker Bird [00:30:59]:
Well, I didn't run out and get an ice cream sundae and I didn't go get a bottle of whiskey either.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:05]:
Right, right.
Walker Bird [00:31:06]:
Things I would have done in the past.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:08]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:31:13]:
I don't know, you know, you know what I'm talking about. And so this, that fight that we had, it was just. I. It wasn't settling down as you know. And then you apologized and. And maybe that's not how you remember it. So don't ruin felt like an apology. You had this look like.
Walker Bird [00:31:41]:
I did not.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:42]:
No, no, no. That's not what I was thinking. That's not what I was thinking.
Walker Bird [00:31:46]:
Okay.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:46]:
No, what I'm trying to get towards, I just don't know that I'm being very clear is let's say if we stick with that example where I apologized, then are you just fine and grounded again?
Walker Bird [00:32:08]:
No.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:08]:
Okay, so what do you do from then, from that point in that as best as you can recall and. Or if you can't remember, that's fine. Like, how do you get from that point to being able to have conversation with me again?
Walker Bird [00:32:25]:
Well, that happened in the car on the drive that was an hour long, so I didn't have my choice. Normally it Would have been separation to get some quiet.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:38]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:32:38]:
And then what I just. Then I would probably sit down and go through the steps that we've been talking about because it's what I know to do now, which is either, you know, get my feet in the grass, go hug a tree, walk out in nature. Because that's where I feel the best.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:54]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:32:55]:
Nature is where I feel the best. Big trees, water, that sort of stuff. But if not just in some space by myself to settle and take a breath, feel my body in the chair, my feet on the floor, that sort of stuff. Maybe meditate, count down from. Close my eyes. Because closing the eyes, you know, takes out a whole realm of the senses to help regulate the body. And then maybe count backwards from 50 to 0. A lot of times I'll count down that way.
Theresa Hubbard [00:33:32]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:33:34]:
And also, I mean, the tools that I'm using now and then just, you know, I'm get. I'm just starting to be able to have those conversations. You know, I've always thought the conversation is kind of weird with, you know, so how are you feeling? You know, there's a judgment piece that comes in sometimes with that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:33:53]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:33:54]:
But I think I'm getting into that space where I can do that and having the ability. And I think it's, you know, I'll be using it the next time we have a, you know, a row. It doesn't happen very often, but it happens. We're human.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:10]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:34:13]:
Start trying to recognize. And also the flip, which is I wonder what is going on for her. But I knew what was going on for you already because we'd had the conversation the night before in any event. Yeah. Seeing that spot, because I know where it is. Right here.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:37]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:34:38]:
Feeling it and asking, allowing. Hey, it's. Take a breath. It's okay. Settle down. That's what I tell all my dogs to settle down. You know, so that's helpful too because I'm putting it into a non judgmental love space, if that's how I speak to my animals.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:59]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:35:01]:
Which is seeming to help. And then after I let that, I'm just going to sit with you and then starting this is just the new process to ask what's going on? What do you need? So that'll translate then to journaling. And hopefully through that process, I continue to soften that space. It releases more. It doesn't mean that I won't be reactive, but not as big and not as long is what I think.
Theresa Hubbard [00:35:32]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:35:32]:
Yeah. Did that answer your question?
Theresa Hubbard [00:35:34]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:35:34]:
Yeah. Well, let me ask you, you Know, because you. You engaged with me, too. You know, after you had said something, then I got really upset. You know, you were still in a meeting. I went out, loaded the car, and then it was on. Right. When you said, what's going on? And I was like, you know, and then you were reactive, too.
Walker Bird [00:35:57]:
And so when you got to that space, how did you get yourself to the space where you were able to look at it a little closer and settle yourself down?
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:07]:
Okay, well, I'm going to need you to walk me down, remember? No, because I. I mean, like, I. Once I'm done with it, like, the. The. Once I'm done working through it, like, in my mind, it's gone. I can remember if you tell me the details, but I don't hold on to things. So tell me what was happening and what we were doing.
Walker Bird [00:36:38]:
We were in the hallway by the door.
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:40]:
Where?
Walker Bird [00:36:41]:
At the house out in Oregon.
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:44]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:36:45]:
Is that what you want?
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:46]:
Keep going? Yes, please. Yep.
Walker Bird [00:36:48]:
You had. Were walking that direction when it all started. And then I think we were circling a little bit, you know, after I was reactive right away. And then I don't remember the. I mean, I remember what you said, but I don't remember the exact words that brought it on. But at some point, I said, you need to wake the F up.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:10]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:37:10]:
And you said, nope.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:14]:
Nope.
Walker Bird [00:37:18]:
It was really odd for me. I thought, nope. And then you said, don't you tell me to wake the F up.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:25]:
And I said, wake the F up. Nope.
Walker Bird [00:37:30]:
Second time. And I said, well, if you can't wake up that way, it's coming. Another.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:36]:
Yeah, Right.
Walker Bird [00:37:38]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:38]:
Yeah. Okay. I remember now.
Walker Bird [00:37:40]:
And that. I mean, that wasn't. I want to be clear to everyone, that wasn't like, here comes my. You know, because I'm not that way. I was leaving.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:49]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:37:49]:
You know, not leaving for good, but I was leaving the state to come back to Missouri. I'd had enough.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:56]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:37:57]:
Is where I was.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:58]:
Right. But do you remember what started that? Because I can remember that now clearly. But can you rewind before that? What?
Walker Bird [00:38:10]:
Why don't you rewind?
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:11]:
Because I don't remember.
Walker Bird [00:38:16]:
I was carrying the. The luggage out to the car because we had to go somewhere.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:21]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:38:21]:
Right. And so, I mean, if you want it from the start, I can give it to you from the start.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:25]:
Sure, sure.
Walker Bird [00:38:26]:
This is supposed to be about anxiety.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:29]:
I know, but isn't anxiety wrapped up all the way in this?
Walker Bird [00:38:34]:
Sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:35]:
If you just want to give a summary, that's okay.
Walker Bird [00:38:37]:
I just did.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:38]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:38:39]:
I don't really want to live this out in front of everybody.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:44]:
It's okay. We don't have to. We don't have to. It's fine, babe.
Walker Bird [00:38:49]:
I just, you know, I remember many things. And you are able to just memory dump it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:56]:
Well, I do, because once I. Once. Something is no longer a perceived threat for me, I don't hold on to it. Like, it just like if I still considered it a threat to me, I would hold on to it. I would have to. But for me, if there's been, you know, if we've had the conversation, if we've been vulnerable with each other, if we. I mean, if we've had all that follow up, my brain doesn't hold on to it.
Walker Bird [00:39:26]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:39:27]:
And so. So I. I remember standing in the kitchen. I remember going, nope, nope, nope. And going out to the car. But I. But I. Because you've said that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:39:38]:
I can picture that, but I still don't remember what was before that.
Walker Bird [00:39:42]:
Okay. The night before, you were having stress over the course.
Theresa Hubbard [00:39:47]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:39:48]:
And you've been working so hard, you know, I know that night and day. You finish your day job and then you're working all night getting things done for the course. And you were. We were talking about ways to, you know, work on it, to make it better, to promote it. You know, what's the direction to go? And so I was talking about, you know, some changes that would have required getting into the application, the kajabi, to do what I was talking about. And you. Or I think this is my interpretation. I cannot, you know, don't even go that direction.
Walker Bird [00:40:23]:
Right, Right. Because I can't handle that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:40:25]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:40:25]:
And then we had a meeting with our marketing expert the next morning. And so we're having the meeting, and I'm trying to have meaningful participation, and I have some ideas about what we could do.
Theresa Hubbard [00:40:39]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:40:39]:
And so I was just sharing that. Not thinking that I was doing the same thing, you know, going the same direction that I had the night before. That wasn't where I was, but it triggered. I believe it triggered you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:40:53]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:40:54]:
And then my experience was that, you know, in front of her, then you dressed me down, you know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:41:04]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:41:05]:
Lashed out and got upset, really upset to the point where I could see she was, you know, because we're on a zoom call, just facially like, oh, my gosh, you know, this is one of those awkward things where we've got a couple's fight on our hands, you know, and so my reaction to that and, you know, in the moment was to just get up and start loading the Car. I was done with the meeting.
Theresa Hubbard [00:41:31]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:41:32]:
Because there wasn't anything productive that I could share at that point. And I was embarrassed, you know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:41:38]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:41:39]:
So that's what precipitated the whole thing for me.
Theresa Hubbard [00:41:43]:
Yeah, I remember now. Well, it is about anxiety, too. So a very different feeling than, like, what I was describing when we were in the restaurant. So what I'm aware of is I love my job and I love what we're doing with the podcast and the course and everything I do. But together, they're a lot for me to do. And so I do work all day and right now work all night on whatever needs to get done. And, you know, when I shared, you know, that I was feeling overwhelmed with it and that I needed more space. And then on the call the next day, it felt like in the excitement of the possibility to do this other thing with the course, that I wasn't going to get the space.
Theresa Hubbard [00:43:56]:
It was just making something else for me to do that I didn't feel like I had the space to do that. I felt very anxious and I didn't. I think. I think upon reflection, even, and I may have said this when we talked about it afterwards, because I don't remember. I think the reaction I had during the meeting was your energy was really high about it, and her energy was really high about it, and my energy was really high, but it wasn't excitement. And I think I just needed it to stop. And I think I didn't know how else to make it stop. And then I knew, you know, when you got up and walked and started loading the car, I knew that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:05]:
That I had hurt you. And so when I came up and I said, I'm sorry, and you were angry, and I don't remember what you said, but I remember saying that, nope, nope, nope. You know, the anxiety, I think for me around that was not in that moment. I didn't know what else to do or to say. I couldn't access any other thing. It was the best I could do. Then.
Walker Bird [00:46:07]:
Yeah, I think. I don't know, I couldn't. There's no doubt I could have handled it better. But I also believe in that. I, you know, the reason I was so reactive is an important boundary that I need to set. And so, because I've been in situations, you know, whether it was growing up with three older sisters and mom or whatever it is, which, oh, you're so stupid. Just shut up. You know, don't say what you think, that sort of stuff.
Walker Bird [00:46:50]:
And then in a prior relationship, you know, I sometimes be publicly embarrassed by being shut down or. Or whatever it might be. And so, you know, I don't want that. And so I don't know how, you know, you would walk the balance if you're in that space or whatever. It's not that I don't do things too right. Um, so I think it's just really important to. If I had used the tools that we're trying to teach people to work, you know, because sometimes you just lose your shit, that I could still have gotten the point across that, please don't do that to me again. You know, and here's why.
Walker Bird [00:47:33]:
You know, maybe if you'd had a better. I mean, you know a lot about me, but a better grasp of how deep that, you know, could touch, there might have been a better way for you to help yourself in the situation where you're feeling helpless and afraid yourself. Right. What your feelings were, and I may be putting words into what you were feeling. When you said my energy, your energy was really high, but it wasn't in a positive way. It was just this just making work for me that I cannot do. So anyway, and just, you know, in relationship, I think my point is just I don't regret saying, please don't do that to me again. I regret how I said it.
Walker Bird [00:48:26]:
I don't hurt you. I love you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:48:28]:
I know. I don't think in general, in relationship, we give each other enough grace.
Walker Bird [00:48:35]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:48:36]:
I think we have our trigger and then we, you know, we feel it very personally and we protect ourselves. And I think the work is, how do we. How do we go to grace first? And again, I'm not talking about unhealthy relationship, because there's that too. I'm just talking about when we're trying to have healthy relationship.
Walker Bird [00:49:01]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:49:04]:
Because we're always going to harm each other. We're always going to have bad days. We're always going to. There's always going to be things. So how do we just keep doing the work? How do we keep building trust and safety in ourselves, in each other, and the effort that we're both putting into the relationship, I think it is the best we can do. It'd be nice if we never had to feel a threat again.
Walker Bird [00:49:43]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, it's important to me that I have, you know, I have good ideas and they're meaningful and we come at things from different angles. But I have. I'm smart. I've got good ideas. And that, you know, whether that was your viewpoint or just my interpretation, it Was like, you know, what you have to say doesn't matter too. Was the trauma response.
Theresa Hubbard [00:50:12]:
Right. Which was not what I was thinking.
Walker Bird [00:50:14]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:50:14]:
Yeah. It could have been the best idea on the planet. I could not have heard it.
Walker Bird [00:50:18]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:50:19]:
Then absolutely couldn't have.
Walker Bird [00:50:21]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:50:21]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:50:22]:
But I also wasn't saying and Theresa's got to do it, but I don't have the expertise to do what you do, you know, as those are things with the podcast that you've done from the start. So I don't know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:50:37]:
Yeah, I think. Yeah, I think that piece because. Because I've done the technical part from the beginning, you know. Sure. I have a perspective about it that is wide. All the detail piece. And so when things like that come up, that is my brain just goes through like all of the pieces. Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:51:02]:
You know, not just the idea. It's the execution like we were talking about earlier.
Walker Bird [00:51:09]:
I'm a hard worker too, but the steps of the implementation aren't my forte.
Theresa Hubbard [00:51:17]:
Right. And I do both. I mean, and we talked about that there are certain things that you do detail much better than I do and there are certain things that I do in execution better and like. And that's part of what makes it really good. And relationship is complex and messy and. Yeah. So, yeah, it was so interesting as you started reminding me more about what that was about. Even before I knew cognitively what you were sharing.
Theresa Hubbard [00:51:55]:
Right before the memory was there, my body felt it because I started tearing up before I even knew and remembered. It's so interesting how our body knows so much. So much. So thinking about when I'm anxious. Not all the time. Sometimes when I am anxious and I am aware that I'm anxious. How about that? Closing my eyes is very helpful when I'm anxious to reduce the sensory stimulation to ask myself what's happening. For me, being honest with myself, asking myself, what do I really want right now? What can I do right now to best support myself? And at the same time, I'm breathing slower, sighing.
Theresa Hubbard [00:53:28]:
That's a big thing that I do to help myself. Uncrossing my legs, putting my feet on the ground, doing my best to like open up, like my chest area so I'm not like constricting myself. And to really do the best that I can to get clear with myself what's happening. For me, that's like my. I break up the process, I guess, and then there's more that comes afterwards.
Walker Bird [00:54:13]:
But yeah, I think recognizing too, babe. I mean, I'm doing it right now because just going back into that has got me amped up, but it's recognizing that it's not linear. Right. It's going to, it's going to come back even in small increments of time, you know? Okay, okay, relax. You know, dudes take all the steps that you're talking about and then there it is again. You have to do it again. And so it's like waves almost.
Theresa Hubbard [00:54:40]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:54:42]:
Learning to surf.
Theresa Hubbard [00:54:45]:
Yeah, Yeah. I, you know, when you're describing that, what I'm thinking about is we're building resiliency in our nervous system.
Walker Bird [00:54:56]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:54:56]:
By doing that. And we need it.
Walker Bird [00:55:01]:
Yes, we do.
Theresa Hubbard [00:55:09]:
Well, thanks for the conversation.
Walker Bird [00:55:12]:
Thank you, babe. I love you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:55:13]:
Yeah, I love you too. Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth and we strive to be more compassionate every day.
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life. Each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:32]:
Well, hello. Hello. How are you?
Walker Bird [00:00:36]:
I'm good.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:36]:
Good.
Walker Bird [00:00:37]:
You're looking particularly beautiful today.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:38]:
Oh, thank you. That's my favorite shirt.
Walker Bird [00:00:41]:
I know, I love it too.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:42]:
I haven't worn it in a few.
Walker Bird [00:00:44]:
Years, so it's a really good color on you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:46]:
Oh, thanks, babe.
Walker Bird [00:00:49]:
Well, today we're talking about anxiety.
Theresa Hubbard [00:00:57]:
That totally wasn't even playing.
Walker Bird [00:00:59]:
Exactly. Way to.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:03]:
Oh, yeah. So. So this came to mind for me on Friday night. We went to dinner with some friends and they had picked this restaurant that you and I had never been to. They had been to before. And it was very tasty. And we were sitting like semi outside, like in a garden kind of area. And it was lovely.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:32]:
It was away from the restaurant. We were the only people in there for the majority of the time. However, it was less insulated and closer to the street.
Walker Bird [00:01:43]:
Yeah. Thin walled, uninsulated and rolled down. Plastic.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:47]:
Yeah. Essentially. Yeah. And so what I noticed, and it was downtown. So busy. Very busy.
Walker Bird [00:01:58]:
Under the highway.
Theresa Hubbard [00:01:59]:
Under the highway. And as the night went on, what I found for me was that it was harder and harder for me to be in the conversation or hear the conversation. And there were an incredible amount of motorcycles. And so I don't. We're not typically out on a Friday night. And we're definitely not in that part of town. And so I don't know if that's normal that there are just groups of people on motorcycles who are out being. And, you know, gunning, not just on a motorcycle, but being very loud.
Theresa Hubbard [00:02:41]:
And so that was a different experience for my body. I am not someone who watches television. I take in news very moderately. And I'm very intentional about taking care of myself and my body throughout the day. And so that was an environment unfamiliar to me. And it only got louder the longer we were there as more and more people were out. And what I noticed was that I felt very anxious and I felt it very much in my body. And I felt like it was best if I didn't say as much because I felt like I might be more, I don't know, judgy or reactive or something.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:34]:
And then I also noticed that I started to get angry.
Walker Bird [00:03:43]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:43]:
As well.
Walker Bird [00:03:44]:
Yeah. And that's a Common response. I have, too.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:47]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:03:48]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:03:48]:
Yeah. It was so interesting because, I mean, I don't feel angry often, and if I do, it's typically around something that's happened, not just sensory and a sound piece. And so that was really interesting for me to have that contrast that I don't normally have, because we don't go out to places like that. I mean, we go out to dinner and stuff, but it's not. I mean, with people and friends, and we'll be out and that'll be fine. But I really think the. That constant. The motorcycle and the.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:26]:
In the end, it never ceased. You know, I mean, or it would cease and it would start back up and then cease and start back up. And so I think my body just kept having this reaction to the sound.
Walker Bird [00:04:36]:
Agreed. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:04:37]:
Okay. And so I didn't say a lot going home, because I was realizing that I felt angry, even though there wasn't anything to be angry about. And I think when we got home, you started doing laundry, and I. Oh, no, you were a little bit behind me. Right. Because we had driven separately.
Walker Bird [00:05:00]:
You dropped me off.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:01]:
I had dropped Patty off. Right, right. I dropped Patty off at her house and then went home and put on some night clothes, and I lit candles and lit some incense and turned the lights off, and I was just sitting in the living room.
Walker Bird [00:05:19]:
That universe was probably stepping in on my behalf and yours to give us a little bit of separation so you could regulate a little bit before, you know, my appearance at your house.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:29]:
Right, yeah.
Walker Bird [00:05:31]:
Not just because that's. It's not your normal place to get angry.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:36]:
Right, right, right.
Walker Bird [00:05:37]:
And I have a hard time with anger, so.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:40]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:05:41]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:05:42]:
So I was very. I mean, I was aware that I was very deliberate. Like, just don't look at your phone, don't check email. Just sit in the dark with the candles lit and some incense and just breathe. Yes. And I feel like by the time you got there, I was. I was still activated. I could still feel it in my body, but I.
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:16]:
I didn't feel as out of control about it. Like, I felt like I knew that I was on the downhill side of it, but it really took a lot of awareness and intention for me to get to that place.
Walker Bird [00:06:30]:
Yes.
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:31]:
Yeah. What are you thinking?
Walker Bird [00:06:34]:
Just. I know that you typically will feel your feet on the floor and just all that whole process we refer to as grounding.
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:45]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:06:47]:
And it's just. It's. It's. How do you think this experience was so much different than your normal.
Theresa Hubbard [00:06:57]:
Normal experience of feeling anxious?
Walker Bird [00:07:00]:
Yeah. Enough for you to just want to have this episode about it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:07:08]:
You know, I think for me it was. I think we can. I think we can practice. I think there's a lot of information out there, whether you have. Whether you access it or not or whether you read about it or see reels about it. I think there's a lot of information about anxiety in regards to specific situations. But I don't know, is there a lot of conversation about when we feel anxiety. But it's really more sensory focused than topic focused.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:02]:
So if I feel anxiety around a particular topic, I can have a conversation with myself. You know, I can challenge the thoughts or whatever. But this was. I had to allow my body the space to re-regulate and the conversation with myself wasn't enough for it to just happen.
Walker Bird [00:08:27]:
Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:08:28]:
And so for me the topic is important because I think there's so much that goes into us being aware of our anxiety, having whatever conversation we need to have to help ourself find safety and groundedness. But also do we give ourselves the space and do the people around us allow the space without them maybe getting concerned that needing the space then means something else as opposed to our body really just needs to find whatever quiet or space or you know, music or feet in the grass or whatever. So I just want to make sure that we talk about it from that aspect too. And again, because that experience was so in contrast to my normal daily life, it stands out bigger for sure.
Walker Bird [00:09:33]:
Yeah, I've got a comment and a question. The comment is just my observation because I'm sitting at the table next to you. It. You can. The traffic is. Is constant and it's up. There's a bridge up above us. It's a major interstate highway that is raised at that location.
Walker Bird [00:09:50]:
And so there's the constant going across and then intermittent traffic, which I think our bodies can get used to. I mean, there's at least a regulation. It may be irritating because it's so loud, but we can get used to that as long as there's some consistency to it. We have an expectation.
Theresa Hubbard [00:10:08]:
Yes, yes.
Walker Bird [00:10:11]:
My experience that the. They were glass pack mufflers, either motorcycles or trucks because I saw a couple of low, low riding, you know, 34 Chevy trucks, that sort of thing, you know, jacked up and. But it would just. It was like a chainsaw that loud. Somebody starting a chainsaw two feet from your head.
Theresa Hubbard [00:10:32]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:10:33]:
And then you. There was no way to anticipate the next time that was going to happen. So think maybe our bodies start to settle down and then you're jarred again each time. And because there's no consistency to it, it's just whenever either the same person came around the block, you know, after 10 blocks or half mile, whatever they were doing, or it was just the next one that came along.
Theresa Hubbard [00:10:56]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:10:56]:
That's just my observation. And the. It was irritating to me, but I didn't sense anxiety about it to the extent that you did. And I wouldn't have known that you had that anxiety because you handled it really well. Which is the next question.
Theresa Hubbard [00:11:15]:
Yes.
Walker Bird [00:11:15]:
And that is, you know, they're with friends, we haven't had dinner with them in a long time. And you were having a really difficult experience based on what you've said.
Theresa Hubbard [00:11:27]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:11:28]:
How did you regulate yourself to continue the conversation versus just standing up and saying, I am leaving, I'm getting angry and I'm out. And this was a three hour dinner. @ least.
Theresa Hubbard [00:11:44]:
It was, it was, it was a three hour dinner. I wanted it to. Well, I don't want anyone to ever have a bad experience because of me. So we can start there. Okay.
Walker Bird [00:12:21]:
There's a lot of emotion there. What is that?
Theresa Hubbard [00:12:26]:
A certain level of practice self denial. Like in the moment, like I can be aware that I'm feeling dysregulated, but I'm not going to make it about me. I'm going to do what I can do to help myself feel regulated as best I can in that situation. And so for that particular moment, it was, you know, I think, really just drinking water and I had gotten a virgin mojito and that was gone. And that was really helpful because it was, it was, you know, very sour from the lime and that was helpful.
Walker Bird [00:13:14]:
And then how was it helpful?
Theresa Hubbard [00:13:17]:
I think it just would shift because I don't normally drink that. It, you know, think I mostly drink water. And so even having water with a lot of lime in it, a lot of lime and then whatever else was in there was a different enough taste for me that, I don't know, I think it just made my brain interested in it, if that makes sense. So it could like take my brain off this kind of unexpected sound thing that you were talking about that my body couldn't predict. But the drink was pleasant and I could find some predictive piece there. So I knew that every time I took a sip that I would enjoy it and it was different. That was helpful, you know, definitely making sure that I was staying grounded, really trying to focus on what everybody was sharing was helpful. I think the, the space itself was cozy.
Walker Bird [00:14:31]:
Yeah, it was, it was cute.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:32]:
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think that.
Walker Bird [00:14:34]:
And intimate. And just like, three tables in this room, they built on.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:38]:
Yeah, yeah. So I think all of those things helped. I don't. The greater awareness comes later.
Walker Bird [00:14:49]:
Right, Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:14:49]:
Like, so dinner's over. I'm in the car, we're driving back, and I'm away. Even as we're talking, the three of us are talking. I'm processing, you know, what was happening for me and what I'm feeling in my body and what's real. What's not real. Like, I'm, you know, working through all of that, and then, you know, I don't want to stay in this state, and so what do I need to do? And I was the one that was driving, so there wasn't a ton I could do until we got home. And then. But then I did immediately start to take care of myself.
Walker Bird [00:15:28]:
Yeah. Was that the night? I mean, this is just of interest. Another thing that's comforting to us to help us regulate. I think you came and laid your head on my shoulder. It was after. We were that way from, I don't know, 15, 20 minutes. You're like, I think my body finally just settled down.
Theresa Hubbard [00:15:45]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Walker Bird [00:15:47]:
Which, yeah, I love, of course. Instead of, 'You really eff'ed me up.' I think. I mean, was it just a need to be held by you?
Theresa Hubbard [00:15:58]:
Oh, it was very helpful.
Walker Bird [00:16:00]:
Sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:00]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:16:01]:
And I think, you know, it's common. That's a common human healing tool. Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:08]:
Yeah. After. Yeah. Once you got home and, you know, settled in, got your laundry started. Yeah. And then, you know, very aware that. That, you know, laying my head on your chest, you know, and us just being quiet, you know, together, was really helpful. Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:31]:
I do remember saying that now, like, whew. Okay. I think my. My body's finally releasing all of that.
Walker Bird [00:16:39]:
Right. I'm not going to get the jolting scare again.
Theresa Hubbard [00:16:44]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Walker Bird [00:16:46]:
A thought that came to mind about your process at the table. You know, my observation of you through dinner was you were more animated than usual when you spoke, so you didn't get insular, but it was. There was, like, a forcefulness to it, and not in a bad way. Don't interpret my. What I'm saying that way, but it was different than normal. And I just thought maybe you were excited because we hadn't had dinner with these people in a while, and there was interesting, you know, things to share about, things that are happening for us and so.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:17]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:17:17]:
But also, when. When you're looking for tools that will help you, when you can't just Dash or choose not to dash from the room. Right. Either can't or make a conscious choice after you realize what's happening and you're working on grounding. Another tool that you've taught me is. Is scent or other sensory.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:39]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:17:39]:
Things. And so the lime water, to me is a way of bringing. Getting yourself present. It's like. It's almost, you know, akin to smelling salts or. And what we use typically are essential oils. And that experience with the lime water is a way. Well, I don't have my essential oils, you know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:17:58]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:17:58]:
Nifty kit to pull out. I didn't bring that. And so if just becoming present and realizing, hey, that is something that can help me do the same thing, at least to maintain while this is still jolting ways for us to care for ourselves until we can get that space that we need.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:19]:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Walker Bird [00:18:22]:
I'm glad that. I mean, it's just so for you to be present enough to even notice that the lime juice was the helping. If I'd known that. I've gone and gotten you a bowl of lime. Oh, baby.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:37]:
Thanks, baby.
Walker Bird [00:18:39]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:42]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:18:43]:
I've got another question for you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:45]:
Yes.
Walker Bird [00:18:45]:
Where did you first feel it in your body, the anxiety that was coming from that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:18:50]:
Yeah. You know, it's interesting that you asked that because it was different than normal because I don't get anxiety so much anymore. I mean, it happens, but it is uncommon. I used to carry it, like, in my gut all the time. And, you know, I've really put a lot of effort over the last 20 some years to release from my body, you know, so that I could be in my body. And this was more in, like, my upper back, which I don't know, and not my shoulders, but like my upper back. Like, almost like a. I mean, as you're talking about it now, like, kind of like a protective, like, space.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:30]:
I mean, I don't know how to describe it, but yes. It wasn't like I was carrying tension in my shoulders. It was really like a. My body was, like, protecting.
Walker Bird [00:19:38]:
Sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:39]:
So, yeah. Much more in my back, which I.
Walker Bird [00:19:41]:
Don't normally sounds like a warrior response.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:44]:
Almost.
Walker Bird [00:19:45]:
Seriously.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:46]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And really having. Which, you know, to me would explain, you know, even probably the anger piece that came with it too.
Walker Bird [00:19:57]:
Sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:19:57]:
Because that was surprising. I was like, oh, I am really angry. And I literally do not have a reason. Reason to be angry. But I am feeling really angry right now. This is so interesting. Yeah, yeah.
Walker Bird [00:20:10]:
I'm thinking about, you know, because, you know, I'm working through a Process of how do I handle it better when you get angry.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:16]:
Right, right, right.
Walker Bird [00:20:17]:
And so I'm just like, I'm really glad that didn't boil out on the ride home or something, you know, But, I mean, we all do it. We.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:25]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:20:25]:
It can be. If we don't stay present or recognize we're doing it, we can be, you know, angry and lash out at the people we love, you know, the most.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:36]:
Yes.
Walker Bird [00:20:37]:
Because I guess there's safety in doing that for the most part. But it's familiar and. And those sorts of things. So in any event, I'm glad it didn't go that way.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:45]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:20:46]:
But I also, as a learning tool, you know, part of my learning process around it is recognizing why is she. Because that's not how she normally talks to me.
Theresa Hubbard [00:20:57]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:20:57]:
What's making that. You know, and that. But without having to dig at you, hey, you know, what's going on? I mean, that's one way I could go. But I think first, internally to recognize she may be feeling anxiety. So let me sit with that and give her a little bit of grace here. First.
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:17]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:21:18]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:19]:
Yeah. Getting curious.
Walker Bird [00:21:20]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:21]:
First. Yeah. Absolutely. I think we so often take things personally, which I think is our work. Right. To be more curious than to take things so personally.
Walker Bird [00:21:32]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:21:33]:
And so I think for sure, what might be happening for her, I think is a good question to ask ourselves. But also, you know, because every situation is so different, can we say, you know, what's happening for you right now, but with the genuine curiosity and care. Right. Not what's happening for you right now. What are you doing? Right, right. But, you know, Trul, you know, what's happening for you right now. Right. Demonstrating care.
Walker Bird [00:22:04]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:04]:
And concern. Is there something that I can do?
Walker Bird [00:22:07]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:07]:
To be supportive of you, I think would go a lot way. A long way. And for me, you know, when you ask, I can typically tell you, I just need you to hug me or hold me or whatever. Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:22:22]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:23]:
But we didn't end up having to have that conversation that night.
Walker Bird [00:22:26]:
I mean, but, you know, it's just interesting because it's like my anxiety feeds off of. Of the. The. What could have been your anger from your own anxiety. Right. And then I'm anxious and, you know, it's just part of my work right now is how do I recognize that and how do I regulate myself, you know, because it touches Right. On things that happen to me as a child. Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:49]:
Yeah. Did you ask me if I was angry at you?
Walker Bird [00:22:54]:
I know I have in the last couple of Days?
Theresa Hubbard [00:22:56]:
No, but I mean. And I think. I mean, I remember saying no, but I was wondering if he did it.
Walker Bird [00:23:05]:
I don't know if it was related or not. It may have been.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:07]:
May have been? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Walker Bird [00:23:10]:
I think maybe it was okay.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:12]:
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. It seemed like you came in and you were like, are you angry at me? And I was like, no.
Walker Bird [00:23:17]:
Well, it was. When you start throwing, you know, you'll like, snap things.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:22]:
Oh.
Walker Bird [00:23:22]:
And it's just a little bit firmer toss of things. But that may have been the next morning. I don't know. Whatever.
Theresa Hubbard [00:23:28]:
I don't remember.
Walker Bird [00:23:29]:
But in any event, I just. My experience of anxiety is I get. And so in my body, it's right here, right by the solar plexus going up towards my heart. And. Yeah, just a piece that I'm working on. But, you know, I've just started this, babe, and it's like recognizing, but also talk, you know, and I've heard this. You just don't get it until you finally start to get it. And then it may be I have to get it again.
Walker Bird [00:23:56]:
But right now, the getting it piece is, hey, you know, I see you. It's my little boy, right. My inner child that had bad experiences when women got angry.
Theresa Hubbard [00:24:09]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:24:11]:
And it just. Take a breath. I'm here, you know, and I can be with your reaction to this. And so I'm having that inner dialogue or trying to have that inner dialogue now. And then, you know, after a little while of just allowing that experience to be right, you know. Well, my. I'm angry now because that's, you know, threatening. It's.
Walker Bird [00:24:35]:
It's threatening me. Not threatening me presently, but threatening.
Theresa Hubbard [00:24:39]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:24:40]:
Making. Remember, threats from the past.
Theresa Hubbard [00:24:42]:
Right, right.
Walker Bird [00:24:43]:
But not even cogent. Right. Not substance that I remember specifically. So, anyway, just. That's another thing to keep in mind is just how we're pinging off each other. And it may ping your own anxiety and what do you do with it? That's one. Another method in addition to grounding and, you know, sensory ways to bring yourself present, but also just recognizing. Hey, hold on just a second.
Walker Bird [00:25:10]:
Settle down, settle down. And it may be an angry teenager that's responding, you know, sometimes, too.
Theresa Hubbard [00:25:16]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:25:17]:
And so I'm really trying, just so you know, so to work on those things. But also, if it's my teenager or young, you know, adult, just, hey, settle down. Let's give this a minute. And I. I see. I see your pain, you know, whatever it is. And it's a. It's an interesting exercise.
Walker Bird [00:25:36]:
And sometimes I'm just like, this is just bullshit.
Theresa Hubbard [00:25:39]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:25:41]:
But more, more recently, it's actually, I think, changing perspective. So, yeah, I can feel the anxiety now just talking about your anger.
Theresa Hubbard [00:25:54]:
Okay. Okay. So I think sometimes we can talk a lot about our process. I'm wondering if it would be helpful for. For both of us to kind of go through like the condensed version. Like if you can you just take a moment without the explanation, just focus on the process. If you're feeling like, say, my anxiety or anger or perceived anger, whatever, it doesn't matter. Or perceived some other situation outside of our relationship, can you take a moment and close your eyes and share with us just you walking yourself through a situation.
Walker Bird [00:26:38]:
Sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:38]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:26:39]:
Okay. In the way I'd like it to be or the way that it is sometimes.
Theresa Hubbard [00:26:44]:
The way that it is sometimes. Okay.
Walker Bird [00:26:56]:
You express anger at a level that is not your norm. Right. You're animated, upset, maybe anxious. And I feel like my typical initial reaction is what's word is going on, you know, and how can I support you? And then there may be an end when, if you are unable to settle that, it's still there for me. Then the anxiety starts to build here, you know, and it's just, it's happening. And if I, if I'm not recognizing that that's happening, then I'm interior on the inside. I'm amping up. You know, it's like getting ready to fight or flee.
Walker Bird [00:27:42]:
Right. And so. And I may be freezing in between, but ultimately, you know, my freeze turns into. It can turn into rage, it can turn into fleeing as well or a rageful flee. And so recognizing that, that's, you know, I had to be very still and very quiet as a child. So I know how to disappear in a rest. You know, I was the youngest, and then there was lots of things that went on with stepfathers, et cetera. And so.
Walker Bird [00:28:17]:
So if I, if I don't have the tools or take the steps in between, there's a panic inside. And I can feel it right now. You know, it's a. It's a panic about what's going to happen next. And then if the next reaction is anger or even a rejection by you, then it's just. It's like the pot is at 211 degrees and it just went to 212. And 212 is the degree that water boils. And then the pot just effing boils right on over for me.
Walker Bird [00:28:50]:
And it's like I'm trying to, you Know, lash out cause, you know, cause emotional damage. I'm not a violent smash things, break the wall, break the window, you know, threaten you, that type of person. But they're still rage.
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:11]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:29:13]:
And so, you know, in the past with my ex wife, it would typically turn into verbal abuse, frankly. You know, I mean, if we were both doing it to each other, but, you know, I would use horrible language, you know, bad words. And with you, that comes out very rarely. But in any event, then it's just on. And that's my experience. And then it's just. It's hard to bring it back in, you know, to rein it in. At that point, it's already boiled out and it's just a mess.
Walker Bird [00:29:57]:
How's that for honesty?
Theresa Hubbard [00:29:59]:
Yeah, that's helpful.
Walker Bird [00:30:01]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:01]:
Yeah. So once that happens, you get to 2:12 and it's boiled over. How do you get grounded again after that? What's it like for you?
Walker Bird [00:30:20]:
You know, it's interesting. I think I still eat a lot of it. Probably still getting sick, you know, gallbladder surgery, previously cancer, those things. But I think I eat it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:39]:
Okay, so food. So right now.
Walker Bird [00:30:43]:
No, no, I'm talking about I eat the emotion.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:46]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:30:46]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:47]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:30:47]:
I mean, but food is in the past, has been a resort. Sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:30:53]:
Yeah. So after that, soothing. Right, Right. How do you soothe yourself now? Right.
Walker Bird [00:30:59]:
Well, I didn't run out and get an ice cream sundae and I didn't go get a bottle of whiskey either.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:05]:
Right, right.
Walker Bird [00:31:06]:
Things I would have done in the past.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:08]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:31:13]:
I don't know, you know, you know what I'm talking about. And so this, that fight that we had, it was just. I. It wasn't settling down as you know. And then you apologized and. And maybe that's not how you remember it. So don't ruin felt like an apology. You had this look like.
Walker Bird [00:31:41]:
I did not.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:42]:
No, no, no. That's not what I was thinking. That's not what I was thinking.
Walker Bird [00:31:46]:
Okay.
Theresa Hubbard [00:31:46]:
No, what I'm trying to get towards, I just don't know that I'm being very clear is let's say if we stick with that example where I apologized, then are you just fine and grounded again?
Walker Bird [00:32:08]:
No.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:08]:
Okay, so what do you do from then, from that point in that as best as you can recall and. Or if you can't remember, that's fine. Like, how do you get from that point to being able to have conversation with me again?
Walker Bird [00:32:25]:
Well, that happened in the car on the drive that was an hour long, so I didn't have my choice. Normally it Would have been separation to get some quiet.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:38]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:32:38]:
And then what I just. Then I would probably sit down and go through the steps that we've been talking about because it's what I know to do now, which is either, you know, get my feet in the grass, go hug a tree, walk out in nature. Because that's where I feel the best.
Theresa Hubbard [00:32:54]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:32:55]:
Nature is where I feel the best. Big trees, water, that sort of stuff. But if not just in some space by myself to settle and take a breath, feel my body in the chair, my feet on the floor, that sort of stuff. Maybe meditate, count down from. Close my eyes. Because closing the eyes, you know, takes out a whole realm of the senses to help regulate the body. And then maybe count backwards from 50 to 0. A lot of times I'll count down that way.
Theresa Hubbard [00:33:32]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:33:34]:
And also, I mean, the tools that I'm using now and then just, you know, I'm get. I'm just starting to be able to have those conversations. You know, I've always thought the conversation is kind of weird with, you know, so how are you feeling? You know, there's a judgment piece that comes in sometimes with that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:33:53]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:33:54]:
But I think I'm getting into that space where I can do that and having the ability. And I think it's, you know, I'll be using it the next time we have a, you know, a row. It doesn't happen very often, but it happens. We're human.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:10]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:34:13]:
Start trying to recognize. And also the flip, which is I wonder what is going on for her. But I knew what was going on for you already because we'd had the conversation the night before in any event. Yeah. Seeing that spot, because I know where it is. Right here.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:37]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:34:38]:
Feeling it and asking, allowing. Hey, it's. Take a breath. It's okay. Settle down. That's what I tell all my dogs to settle down. You know, so that's helpful too because I'm putting it into a non judgmental love space, if that's how I speak to my animals.
Theresa Hubbard [00:34:59]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:35:01]:
Which is seeming to help. And then after I let that, I'm just going to sit with you and then starting this is just the new process to ask what's going on? What do you need? So that'll translate then to journaling. And hopefully through that process, I continue to soften that space. It releases more. It doesn't mean that I won't be reactive, but not as big and not as long is what I think.
Theresa Hubbard [00:35:32]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:35:32]:
Yeah. Did that answer your question?
Theresa Hubbard [00:35:34]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:35:34]:
Yeah. Well, let me ask you, you Know, because you. You engaged with me, too. You know, after you had said something, then I got really upset. You know, you were still in a meeting. I went out, loaded the car, and then it was on. Right. When you said, what's going on? And I was like, you know, and then you were reactive, too.
Walker Bird [00:35:57]:
And so when you got to that space, how did you get yourself to the space where you were able to look at it a little closer and settle yourself down?
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:07]:
Okay, well, I'm going to need you to walk me down, remember? No, because I. I mean, like, I. Once I'm done with it, like, the. The. Once I'm done working through it, like, in my mind, it's gone. I can remember if you tell me the details, but I don't hold on to things. So tell me what was happening and what we were doing.
Walker Bird [00:36:38]:
We were in the hallway by the door.
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:40]:
Where?
Walker Bird [00:36:41]:
At the house out in Oregon.
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:44]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:36:45]:
Is that what you want?
Theresa Hubbard [00:36:46]:
Keep going? Yes, please. Yep.
Walker Bird [00:36:48]:
You had. Were walking that direction when it all started. And then I think we were circling a little bit, you know, after I was reactive right away. And then I don't remember the. I mean, I remember what you said, but I don't remember the exact words that brought it on. But at some point, I said, you need to wake the F up.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:10]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:37:10]:
And you said, nope.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:14]:
Nope.
Walker Bird [00:37:18]:
It was really odd for me. I thought, nope. And then you said, don't you tell me to wake the F up.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:25]:
And I said, wake the F up. Nope.
Walker Bird [00:37:30]:
Second time. And I said, well, if you can't wake up that way, it's coming. Another.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:36]:
Yeah, Right.
Walker Bird [00:37:38]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:38]:
Yeah. Okay. I remember now.
Walker Bird [00:37:40]:
And that. I mean, that wasn't. I want to be clear to everyone, that wasn't like, here comes my. You know, because I'm not that way. I was leaving.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:49]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:37:49]:
You know, not leaving for good, but I was leaving the state to come back to Missouri. I'd had enough.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:56]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:37:57]:
Is where I was.
Theresa Hubbard [00:37:58]:
Right. But do you remember what started that? Because I can remember that now clearly. But can you rewind before that? What?
Walker Bird [00:38:10]:
Why don't you rewind?
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:11]:
Because I don't remember.
Walker Bird [00:38:16]:
I was carrying the. The luggage out to the car because we had to go somewhere.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:21]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:38:21]:
Right. And so, I mean, if you want it from the start, I can give it to you from the start.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:25]:
Sure, sure.
Walker Bird [00:38:26]:
This is supposed to be about anxiety.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:29]:
I know, but isn't anxiety wrapped up all the way in this?
Walker Bird [00:38:34]:
Sure.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:35]:
If you just want to give a summary, that's okay.
Walker Bird [00:38:37]:
I just did.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:38]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:38:39]:
I don't really want to live this out in front of everybody.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:44]:
It's okay. We don't have to. We don't have to. It's fine, babe.
Walker Bird [00:38:49]:
I just, you know, I remember many things. And you are able to just memory dump it.
Theresa Hubbard [00:38:56]:
Well, I do, because once I. Once. Something is no longer a perceived threat for me, I don't hold on to it. Like, it just like if I still considered it a threat to me, I would hold on to it. I would have to. But for me, if there's been, you know, if we've had the conversation, if we've been vulnerable with each other, if we. I mean, if we've had all that follow up, my brain doesn't hold on to it.
Walker Bird [00:39:26]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:39:27]:
And so. So I. I remember standing in the kitchen. I remember going, nope, nope, nope. And going out to the car. But I. But I. Because you've said that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:39:38]:
I can picture that, but I still don't remember what was before that.
Walker Bird [00:39:42]:
Okay. The night before, you were having stress over the course.
Theresa Hubbard [00:39:47]:
Okay.
Walker Bird [00:39:48]:
And you've been working so hard, you know, I know that night and day. You finish your day job and then you're working all night getting things done for the course. And you were. We were talking about ways to, you know, work on it, to make it better, to promote it. You know, what's the direction to go? And so I was talking about, you know, some changes that would have required getting into the application, the kajabi, to do what I was talking about. And you. Or I think this is my interpretation. I cannot, you know, don't even go that direction.
Walker Bird [00:40:23]:
Right, Right. Because I can't handle that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:40:25]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:40:25]:
And then we had a meeting with our marketing expert the next morning. And so we're having the meeting, and I'm trying to have meaningful participation, and I have some ideas about what we could do.
Theresa Hubbard [00:40:39]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:40:39]:
And so I was just sharing that. Not thinking that I was doing the same thing, you know, going the same direction that I had the night before. That wasn't where I was, but it triggered. I believe it triggered you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:40:53]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:40:54]:
And then my experience was that, you know, in front of her, then you dressed me down, you know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:41:04]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:41:05]:
Lashed out and got upset, really upset to the point where I could see she was, you know, because we're on a zoom call, just facially like, oh, my gosh, you know, this is one of those awkward things where we've got a couple's fight on our hands, you know, and so my reaction to that and, you know, in the moment was to just get up and start loading the Car. I was done with the meeting.
Theresa Hubbard [00:41:31]:
Right.
Walker Bird [00:41:32]:
Because there wasn't anything productive that I could share at that point. And I was embarrassed, you know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:41:38]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:41:39]:
So that's what precipitated the whole thing for me.
Theresa Hubbard [00:41:43]:
Yeah, I remember now. Well, it is about anxiety, too. So a very different feeling than, like, what I was describing when we were in the restaurant. So what I'm aware of is I love my job and I love what we're doing with the podcast and the course and everything I do. But together, they're a lot for me to do. And so I do work all day and right now work all night on whatever needs to get done. And, you know, when I shared, you know, that I was feeling overwhelmed with it and that I needed more space. And then on the call the next day, it felt like in the excitement of the possibility to do this other thing with the course, that I wasn't going to get the space.
Theresa Hubbard [00:43:56]:
It was just making something else for me to do that I didn't feel like I had the space to do that. I felt very anxious and I didn't. I think. I think upon reflection, even, and I may have said this when we talked about it afterwards, because I don't remember. I think the reaction I had during the meeting was your energy was really high about it, and her energy was really high about it, and my energy was really high, but it wasn't excitement. And I think I just needed it to stop. And I think I didn't know how else to make it stop. And then I knew, you know, when you got up and walked and started loading the car, I knew that.
Theresa Hubbard [00:45:05]:
That I had hurt you. And so when I came up and I said, I'm sorry, and you were angry, and I don't remember what you said, but I remember saying that, nope, nope, nope. You know, the anxiety, I think for me around that was not in that moment. I didn't know what else to do or to say. I couldn't access any other thing. It was the best I could do. Then.
Walker Bird [00:46:07]:
Yeah, I think. I don't know, I couldn't. There's no doubt I could have handled it better. But I also believe in that. I, you know, the reason I was so reactive is an important boundary that I need to set. And so, because I've been in situations, you know, whether it was growing up with three older sisters and mom or whatever it is, which, oh, you're so stupid. Just shut up. You know, don't say what you think, that sort of stuff.
Walker Bird [00:46:50]:
And then in a prior relationship, you know, I sometimes be publicly embarrassed by being shut down or. Or whatever it might be. And so, you know, I don't want that. And so I don't know how, you know, you would walk the balance if you're in that space or whatever. It's not that I don't do things too right. Um, so I think it's just really important to. If I had used the tools that we're trying to teach people to work, you know, because sometimes you just lose your shit, that I could still have gotten the point across that, please don't do that to me again. You know, and here's why.
Walker Bird [00:47:33]:
You know, maybe if you'd had a better. I mean, you know a lot about me, but a better grasp of how deep that, you know, could touch, there might have been a better way for you to help yourself in the situation where you're feeling helpless and afraid yourself. Right. What your feelings were, and I may be putting words into what you were feeling. When you said my energy, your energy was really high, but it wasn't in a positive way. It was just this just making work for me that I cannot do. So anyway, and just, you know, in relationship, I think my point is just I don't regret saying, please don't do that to me again. I regret how I said it.
Walker Bird [00:48:26]:
I don't hurt you. I love you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:48:28]:
I know. I don't think in general, in relationship, we give each other enough grace.
Walker Bird [00:48:35]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:48:36]:
I think we have our trigger and then we, you know, we feel it very personally and we protect ourselves. And I think the work is, how do we. How do we go to grace first? And again, I'm not talking about unhealthy relationship, because there's that too. I'm just talking about when we're trying to have healthy relationship.
Walker Bird [00:49:01]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:49:04]:
Because we're always going to harm each other. We're always going to have bad days. We're always going to. There's always going to be things. So how do we just keep doing the work? How do we keep building trust and safety in ourselves, in each other, and the effort that we're both putting into the relationship, I think it is the best we can do. It'd be nice if we never had to feel a threat again.
Walker Bird [00:49:43]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, it's important to me that I have, you know, I have good ideas and they're meaningful and we come at things from different angles. But I have. I'm smart. I've got good ideas. And that, you know, whether that was your viewpoint or just my interpretation, it Was like, you know, what you have to say doesn't matter too. Was the trauma response.
Theresa Hubbard [00:50:12]:
Right. Which was not what I was thinking.
Walker Bird [00:50:14]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:50:14]:
Yeah. It could have been the best idea on the planet. I could not have heard it.
Walker Bird [00:50:18]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:50:19]:
Then absolutely couldn't have.
Walker Bird [00:50:21]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:50:21]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:50:22]:
But I also wasn't saying and Theresa's got to do it, but I don't have the expertise to do what you do, you know, as those are things with the podcast that you've done from the start. So I don't know.
Theresa Hubbard [00:50:37]:
Yeah, I think. Yeah, I think that piece because. Because I've done the technical part from the beginning, you know. Sure. I have a perspective about it that is wide. All the detail piece. And so when things like that come up, that is my brain just goes through like all of the pieces. Right.
Theresa Hubbard [00:51:02]:
You know, not just the idea. It's the execution like we were talking about earlier.
Walker Bird [00:51:09]:
I'm a hard worker too, but the steps of the implementation aren't my forte.
Theresa Hubbard [00:51:17]:
Right. And I do both. I mean, and we talked about that there are certain things that you do detail much better than I do and there are certain things that I do in execution better and like. And that's part of what makes it really good. And relationship is complex and messy and. Yeah. So, yeah, it was so interesting as you started reminding me more about what that was about. Even before I knew cognitively what you were sharing.
Theresa Hubbard [00:51:55]:
Right before the memory was there, my body felt it because I started tearing up before I even knew and remembered. It's so interesting how our body knows so much. So much. So thinking about when I'm anxious. Not all the time. Sometimes when I am anxious and I am aware that I'm anxious. How about that? Closing my eyes is very helpful when I'm anxious to reduce the sensory stimulation to ask myself what's happening. For me, being honest with myself, asking myself, what do I really want right now? What can I do right now to best support myself? And at the same time, I'm breathing slower, sighing.
Theresa Hubbard [00:53:28]:
That's a big thing that I do to help myself. Uncrossing my legs, putting my feet on the ground, doing my best to like open up, like my chest area so I'm not like constricting myself. And to really do the best that I can to get clear with myself what's happening. For me, that's like my. I break up the process, I guess, and then there's more that comes afterwards.
Walker Bird [00:54:13]:
But yeah, I think recognizing too, babe. I mean, I'm doing it right now because just going back into that has got me amped up, but it's recognizing that it's not linear. Right. It's going to, it's going to come back even in small increments of time, you know? Okay, okay, relax. You know, dudes take all the steps that you're talking about and then there it is again. You have to do it again. And so it's like waves almost.
Theresa Hubbard [00:54:40]:
Yeah.
Walker Bird [00:54:42]:
Learning to surf.
Theresa Hubbard [00:54:45]:
Yeah, Yeah. I, you know, when you're describing that, what I'm thinking about is we're building resiliency in our nervous system.
Walker Bird [00:54:56]:
Yeah.
Theresa Hubbard [00:54:56]:
By doing that. And we need it.
Walker Bird [00:55:01]:
Yes, we do.
Theresa Hubbard [00:55:09]:
Well, thanks for the conversation.
Walker Bird [00:55:12]:
Thank you, babe. I love you.
Theresa Hubbard [00:55:13]:
Yeah, I love you too. Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth and we strive to be more compassionate every day.