Healing Family Relationships: How to Create Deeper Connections with Siblings and Parents

Walker Bird [00:00:04]:
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life. Each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:33]:
Well, hello.

Walker Bird [00:00:34]:
Hi there.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:35]:
How are you? I'm great.

Walker Bird [00:00:43]:
You know, I'm having a hard day. I mean, yesterday started off well. Yeah. Today did not.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:48]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:00:49]:
It's just.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:51]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:00:52]:
The roller coaster of life.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:57]:
Yeah. So today we were going to talk about relationships with our family different than the one we did about the roles we play in our family. And so when I was thinking about talking about this, you know, topic today, what came to mind for me was when I think about. So I am. I am one of eight children. I am the fifth of eight. My third oldest sister passed away as a infant from a heart condition that they, I think, could fix now, but they couldn't 60 years ago. And so seven of us raised in a home with two parents who are still married.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:57]:
They are 82 and 84. And we may have talked about this a little bit on another episode, but I feel like my parents in the last few years have developed a relationship that I've never had, never witnessed. Priority.

Walker Bird [00:02:16]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:17]:
And so it's really lovely.

Walker Bird [00:02:21]:
You know, and for them to find that, that, that far along, you know, is. Gives a lot of hope for growth and.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:30]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:02:33]:
I don't know. Partnership.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:35]:
Yeah. Well, no doubt they both still had to release stories that they had been carrying for 75 plus years. Right. Yeah. So to me, yeah, it's never too late to release whatever story is getting in our way.

Walker Bird [00:02:52]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:53]:
From having more connection. I think we can tell ourselves that it can get too late. You know, a lot of people come in in their mid-50s. It's too late for me. And I'm like, whoo, you have no idea. You've got 30, 40 years left.

Walker Bird [00:03:06]:
Well, and it can happen in five years, too, or three years or less. It just all depends. And, you know, if you, if you just throw your hands up, well, you've guaranteed what the outcome will be.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:21]:
Right?

Walker Bird [00:03:22]:
More of the same.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:23]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:03:23]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:23]:
So putting effort in, no matter your age. Yeah. So when I think about, you know, how different we are, there's 18 years between my oldest sibling and my youngest sibling. And so, you know, my oldest sibling wasn't even around when my youngest sibling was growing up. So there is no relationship there. And that's because she Left for college and then never has lived back here. So it wasn't like, you know, we just didn't see her that often. We didn't have the money for her to come home regularly, you know, on breaks and stuff.

Theresa Hubbard [00:04:03]:
And so as best as I remember, you know, we didn't see her that often, you know, once she left. And. And so that relationship is different just because she hasn't been around for however long. That's been a really long time. 40 some years. And then the rest of my siblings have mostly lived here. And then I have one sibling that I don't think we have seen for seven years. Mostly seven years.

Theresa Hubbard [00:04:41]:
It's hard. I mean, I don't think I've seen her for seven years. I think some of my siblings may have saw her five years ago. And so I think about relationships with family and just how, you know, different. Each one of them is who I am, who they are, how we walk in the world, what we want in relationship, what our traumas have been, what our, you know, maybe our intimate partner relationships are. I mean, I think they're so many things that go into what our relationship with our family is. It's really complex. I think our family has matured.

Theresa Hubbard [00:05:42]:
I mean, it was really kind of funny over the weekend. We were celebrating birthdays. We get together once a month. And there weren't a ton of us there this last week. And my mom, it was really sweet. She said, we are a small group, but we are mighty. I was like, I really liked that.

Walker Bird [00:06:03]:
Yeah, she's a great matriarch.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:05]:
She is.

Walker Bird [00:06:06]:
You know, I mean, she really works hard to be the glue to bring everybody together at her house. Even though she's 82. 2. 2.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:14]:
She'll be 83 next month.

Walker Bird [00:06:17]:
And it's just. It's nice to see, you know, she just does her best.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:22]:
She does.

Walker Bird [00:06:23]:
And I love this a. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:27]:
Yeah. And she is a mom who gives us a lot of space to be who we are, to make our choices. It's not that she doesn't have opinions that she gives you every now and then, but it is not. It's not overpowering. It's not, in my experience, shaming, you know, maybe some, a little bit, but not much. I just don't feel like I experienced that much. My parents are like loving grandparents, but they aren't ones who. I mean, I think my mom spent quite a bit of time with the oldest grandson, like, out of need.

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:22]:
But my mom worked while most of us were growing up. I mean, our grandkids, I Mean, our. My children were growing up. My mom was still working. Um, and so, you know, not a regular over at the house, taking care of the kids experience.

Walker Bird [00:07:42]:
So is that regular?

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:45]:
I don't know. I see it, you know, in families, but not, you know, like some grandparents are with their kids every day.

Walker Bird [00:07:54]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:54]:
I mean, their grandkids every day or they're with their, you know, every weekend. And, you know, we might do it once a month, get together sometimes twice. Depends on if there's an event. Specific event going on.

Walker Bird [00:08:08]:
What do you think changed for her to be so. And more involved with the oldest grandchild?

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:15]:
Oh, I think that was like the dynamics of his parents situation. Like, I think. Yeah, I think they needed a lot of support. And so I think it would be an interesting conversation to have with her.

Walker Bird [00:08:36]:
Sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:36]:
For sure.

Walker Bird [00:08:37]:
Yeah. I guess without her, we don't really know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:40]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:08:42]:
I mean, where I immediately went with it was, you know, first grandchild. You know, just the wonder and excitement about that was like, ooh, I'm in. All in that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:53]:
Oh, no, no, I don't. I mean, I'm not saying that wasn't. I'm not saying that wasn't there, but there's 15. Right.

Walker Bird [00:09:02]:
Or whatever. I don't know how many grandchildren there are.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:05]:
I don't know either. I'd have to count them up. But no, I don't think that was it for her. You know, my mom is not. I mean, she's really very hands off, and I have been too, to a degree. I've actually had to work on learning how to be a little bit more engaged with my kids. I mean, I think my mom was just overwhelmed with, you know, losing a child, raising seven children. The financial aspect of raising seven children, so nine people in the home, It's a lot to manage and feed and clothe and.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:50]:
Yeah. I mean, just all of it. I do. I think my parents were just really overwhelmed, but also, you know, living the life that they thought they were supposed to be living.

Walker Bird [00:10:01]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:03]:
And so I understand, you know, that balance and I can see the amount of, you know, effort that they put in to trying to do it as well as they could. Not all of it was great, but I think we all learned to work, you know, hard. We all, I think, are very hard workers.

Walker Bird [00:10:22]:
Yes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:28]:
But I do think it was overwhelming. So I think we raised each other more than my parents raised us, and I don't think that was great. But in regards to just the, you know, having, let's see, someone who's 14 years old be your Primary caregiver. I don't know. That would have been great when I was a little person. So I remember there being a lot of stress and a lot of fighting. Our oldest sister, really, I don't think knowing what to do with us. And so how do you, you know, control little kids who are just, you know, running around doing whatever? So it was pretty messy.

Theresa Hubbard [00:11:21]:
It was messy. So for me as a parent, being hands off felt normal because that's what I knew. And then as my kids continued to age is when I realized that they needed more and they wanted more and I had to really learn. And we've talked about this in different episodes, who each one of my kids was and what they needed from me. And I'm still learning that. What?

Walker Bird [00:11:56]:
Well, they're. They're all changing, you know, so you do have to stay up with the news, right?

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:01]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:12:02]:
And I'm not just the news, but, you know, what lies under that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:07]:
Yeah, but I think about, like, even, like, I don't think we did things with my mom other than when we. They were a necessity. And so like, even yesterday, you know, my youngest child and I were at a doctor's appointment and she was telling me about this. Some clothing that had ripped and she wanted to try to fix it creatively. And for me, even suggesting, like, let's go to Joanne's and find some fabric, you know, is, you know, not something that I would do. Let's. Let's go hang out in a fabric store for an hour and a half and wander around and. And it was great.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:50]:
But it's not where my brain goes. I think my brain, if I am in the middle of doing things that are a necessity, getting my brain to shift into just wandering around a store, which isn't something I normally do for myself.

Walker Bird [00:13:08]:
Yeah, you're not a shopper.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:09]:
I'm not a shopper. Right, right. And we had a great time, you know, and spent a lot more money than I thought that I would. Because then once I got in there, then I found some fabric I really liked. Anyway. Ye. I digress. I digress.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:30]:
Anyway, it was so for me, learning relationships with, you know, my siblings, like, is effort as well. Even like when we were playing at my mom's on Sunday, so. And I mean, like, my niece is getting married next month, and my mom had gone out to find some dresses to wear and she wanted feedback on what. Which of the dresses. And then she had ordered one too. So there were two that she had purchased and then one. And we went in, you know, her Bedroom, which is not something we normally do. And we were all trying on all the dresses, you know, and so there were three of us daughters and my mom in there trying on dresses, and we're all, like, evaluating hair color and skin color and the color of the dress and what looks best on, you know, which person.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:32]:
And anyway, it was just. It was sweet and fun, but that isn't our normal relationship to play like that. But it was a lot of fun, and it would be fun to do more of that. Um, and we've taken my parents on some trips the last few years, which has been fun as well. But in my family, we get along. We're kind to each other, but I would say, you know, we have a certain level of curiosity with each other, but we're also very efficient. I mean, like, our. I think there's, like, a certain amount of efficiency.

Walker Bird [00:15:12]:
Sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:12]:
That we learned in relationship. And so I can just see that. And I keep working on stepping out of that, but knowing that that is still there. So. So what are you thinking about your own family? As I'm.

Walker Bird [00:15:31]:
I'm thinking about your family.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:32]:
Yeah. Okay, go ahead.

Walker Bird [00:15:34]:
Well, I just. It's really. I love the picture of you in there, you know, doing everybody trying on the dress and having that. That time together, you know, and being able to. To let go of the analytical really, you know, and just play together. And it's touching, and it made me, you know, want to encourage you to look for more ways that that could happen, especially while your mom is still around, but even after, because they're, you know, your family is lovely.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:13]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:16:16]:
Everybody's busy, you know, raising their kids still and all that, but it's really nice to see.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:23]:
Thanks, babe. Yeah, yeah.

Walker Bird [00:16:25]:
So. And. But also seeing. Are you telling me not to tap the table?

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:32]:
Was I about to tap? No, no, no, no. I was just putting my hand on your leg.

Walker Bird [00:16:38]:
Thank you.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:39]:
You're welcome.

Walker Bird [00:16:41]:
It's nice. Anyway, It's a nice thing to see, and I hope that you guys find a way to make similar experiences happen more, you know, then. It's just we've all gone to all this effort mentally, to get together at a location or whatever, and then it's just. It is what it is. And everyone's so busy that you. You girls don't have the opportunity. Women, but girls in that setting, I think, is okay having that opportunity to really connect like that in a fun way.

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:18]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We played dress up growing up all the time. We had a box full of really cool things. Who knows? My mom may still have it. I don't know.

Walker Bird [00:17:30]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:31]:
But it was fun.

Walker Bird [00:17:33]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:33]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:17:34]:
Hmm. You were asking me about my family experience, and it's. It's very different from yours. I mean, we didn't have a parent that really pulled everybody together. You know, my dad had been an only child, and with his parents, they were, you know, they weren't. They were, I don't know, six hours away or something like that. Four, five, six hours away. And they were very interested, but there was no zoom.

Walker Bird [00:18:08]:
There was no chat. There was none of that. It was just the telephone back then. And so I, you know, I would say that they were very influential in who I became or parts of me, but. And they loved us, but they weren't close enough to be there all the time. And it wasn't. I mean, they weren't stepping in.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:33]:
Right, right, right.

Walker Bird [00:18:34]:
But it's interesting, as an only child, I think my dad was jealous.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:41]:
Sure.

Walker Bird [00:18:42]:
Still wanted to be the only one.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:43]:
Sure.

Walker Bird [00:18:44]:
And so. And they were. They were critical of his life choices, etc. You know, divorced and married four times. And in between, you know, just out doing things, you know, and they didn't appreciate that. Thought he was reckless.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:06]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:19:07]:
And irresponsible with money. Money was a big deal to my grandfather because he grew up with nothing. And through the Depression, all that stuff.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:15]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:19:16]:
As a young man in the Depression. But in any event. Well, what would he have been? Early 30s. So anyway, we didn't have a leader.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:30]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:19:31]:
And then. Because both parents got married four times or multiple, you know, siblings from other marriages.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:38]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:19:39]:
And it just. Nobody ever pulled that all together. So I haven't had that experience. So. But, you know, so the closest I can approximate is just relationship with my sister. So the original. Because we were the first of all of the siblings. The original four.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:57]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:19:59]:
Born earliest, whatever. The oldest.

Theresa Hubbard [00:20:02]:
The oldest four. Right.

Walker Bird [00:20:04]:
Yeah. And so, yeah, I think my next youngest, the next sibling is like six years younger than me. So then it just goes down from there. So anyway, there wasn't a lot of guidance. There was kind of some conflict about who was more important to the grandparents that were. Were involved. Because my mom's grandparents, they loved us and we had a nice time. We went to see them, but we didn't hear in between times.

Walker Bird [00:20:34]:
So how do you, you know, walk the dynamics of those relationships? And they're all gone now.

Theresa Hubbard [00:20:40]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:20:40]:
Other than, you know, my siblings are all here still.

Theresa Hubbard [00:20:43]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:20:43]:
So parents, grandparents, all deceased for a long time. So there's no way to go back and re-tread ground, you know, to try to have those experiences. We're talking about, you know, trying to create opportunity for connection as. As adults. Right. But there is. With my existing siblings, we're navigating, you know, who are we now? Since we've been apart for so many years. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Walker Bird [00:21:11]:
Of those, I was the last at home because I was the youngest of the first four. And the rest. The rest of my siblings didn't live. You know, it was split up, all living in different places. And so it was. It's interesting to look back and see as the youngest, what the oldest. This was an interesting dynamic because she was placed in a position, and I think it happened a lot back then.

Theresa Hubbard [00:21:34]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:21:35]:
Similar to your family, too. And it may still. I don't know. I'm way past that. But, you know, there were absentee parents, basically, and so she had to take on that role. And that's a lot, you know, and I think I could. We could see that sort of in your oldest sister, too.

Theresa Hubbard [00:21:57]:
It's.

Walker Bird [00:21:57]:
It's a. It's so much, and. I don't know, it just creates a different dynamic. But what I know is we all have become people that the others don't. You know, we know each other. We see parts of each other through cards and calls and that sort of thing, but we're not together enough to really know each other. And my hope is that somehow becomes different. Maybe it never does.

Walker Bird [00:22:33]:
What do you think?

Theresa Hubbard [00:22:36]:
I think it can. I think that about six years ago, seven years ago, I can't remember exactly, I invited all of my siblings to come to my house for the weekend. A Friday night, a Saturday and a Sunday. And the goal of that was for us to take turns telling our story as much as we wanted to tell, ideally starting from when we were a child to who we are now. And no one could interrupt each other. No one could challenge anybody's story. It was really just about spending that time being with each other and gaining, I don't know, awareness and perspective and compassion, you know, for ourself, because we didn't all go through the same thing, even though we were in the same house. And, you know, as well as we get along and, you know, connect and spend time with each other, the reality was, is my.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:54]:
We started with the oldest and went to the youngest and, you know, we made food together for breaks and, you know, took breaks and spent some time outside talking. I mean, we, you know, kind of mixed it up over the weekend. What was most shocking was when my oldest sister started Telling her story of her life. And as much as we know each other and as well as we get along, we had no idea, we had no idea what was going on in her adult life. None.

Walker Bird [00:24:36]:
Right?

Theresa Hubbard [00:24:37]:
None. And I remember her sitting there and she had like typed out notes or something. And I just remember her sitting there and she had her laptop open and she was shaking, you know, as she was, you know, reading her story. And, and I think we all, I mean like, we all like heard her to some degree. I'm not saying that some people didn't dissociate, but I just remember sitting there thinking, how did we not know? How did we not know?

Walker Bird [00:25:11]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:12]:
As much as we talked, as well as we get along, how did we not know? And when she finished, we all needed break, took a break. And I remember my sister that was going next saying, remind me why we're doing this. And I said, because we don't know who each other is. We think we do, but we really don't know. And so for me, it's creating the space for it and the willingness to step in and hear however many siblings perspectives you have and not challenge them. Can you allow them to have had their experience, even if it was completely different than yours and for that to be okay? Can you accept someone else's experience?

Walker Bird [00:26:13]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:14]:
Even if you were there when certain things happened, can you allow it? Can you allow your story to have more information put into it? So I do think so. I just don't know that we create opportunity. And even if we do go out with our siblings, are we with just your siblings? Are you creating the space for it? You know, do you create structure around it? I mean, I mean that was one of the things that I did and I didn't play the role of therapist. It was really more like, okay, remember, we're not talking, Right. Like we're just sitting here, you know, and I think just some people. And it wasn't that people were in this case trying to change anybody's stories. They were just so surprised at so much that was shared.

Walker Bird [00:27:07]:
Well, and don't you think there's some resistance to the shock of it?

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:13]:
Oh, sure. Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Walker Bird [00:27:17]:
Oh, it was whatever the experience was. And, and also just their experience within the family too can be shocking.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:24]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:27:25]:
And hard to hear.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:26]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:27:26]:
If you, your experience was vastly different.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:29]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:27:30]:
So how do you help people get past that type of reaction? You know, that's the question. But anyway, I kind of digressed you. No, it's ok.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:40]:
It's okay. No, you Were just asking, can it be different? And I'm like, yeah, I think it can be. I think that was a huge, you know, shift for us as a. As a sibling group to see each other and. And to learn more about how we walk in the world, how we see things, our struggles, our story, what we're carrying. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:28:06]:
Was it hard for you not to step into the therapist?

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:09]:
No.

Walker Bird [00:28:09]:
Role?

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:10]:
No.

Walker Bird [00:28:10]:
How did you keep yourself from doing it?

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:12]:
Just being present. I mean, really just being present. Like, I really wanted to hear.

Walker Bird [00:28:17]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:18]:
You know, I really want to know who my siblings are, not just the stories that I have created about them over 54 years. Right.

Walker Bird [00:28:29]:
Yeah. And I, you know, it's. What's striking me is just if people want to try that sort of thing, they don't have to be a therapist to do it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:37]:
No. They just all have to be willing to agree again. We're all in this space, giving ourselves plenty of time. That's why we did a Friday night, Saturday, Sunday. And then, you know, once somebody starts sharing, they've got the floor, they've got the talking, they've got the talking stick. Nobody else gets to speak. And again, no challenging afterwards. You know, no face, you know, facial expressions or eye rolls or sighing.

Walker Bird [00:29:07]:
That's asking a lot.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:08]:
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, it's. You're really there to hear them. It's not about you.

Walker Bird [00:29:13]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:13]:
Whoever is speaking, it's not about you, it's about them.

Walker Bird [00:29:17]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:18]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:29:18]:
You know, I guess providing some guidelines. Just. And they're simple, you know, maybe five.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:25]:
Yeah. Very simple.

Walker Bird [00:29:26]:
So you don't have to have a therapist present to be able to try to work your way through it. But people might have an emotional reaction. They can just see the eye roll piece or just because it's. It becomes about the listener. Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:29:41]:
Well, yeah, that's the work. Right. It's not that you're not going to have your experience. It's just make your experience the focus. Right, Right. So you can have your experience. You're going to have your experience, but not to take from the person who's sharing. And I know some family systems can't do that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:02]:
I mean, I work with families, you know, we'll have, I don't know, six, seven, eight, nine people in a room, you know, and in that regard, you know, I'm modeling more.

Walker Bird [00:30:15]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:15]:
About how to hold space. I am facilitating. It's a more directive perspective when I'm working with the family, but also teaching them, you know, how to hold space for each other. But one of the Things that comes to mind is the roles that we play in our family, which we've talked about, are so strong. So it is not going to be surprising if, if you attempt this, that you all, initially at least start in your role. And so for me, that's part of the time and the space and, you know, again, initially, are you all willing, truly willing to be seen? Are you willing to release the role so that your family can know who you are? It may take 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 times. I don't know.

Walker Bird [00:31:29]:
Sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:31]:
I just think that we, I don't know. I think our family, our siblings, over time, I think a lot of us have done a lot of personal work. And so I think it. I think we were really successful the first time. It doesn't mean we couldn't do it again. You know, I'm sure there'd be more that would come out.

Walker Bird [00:31:53]:
I think having done, you know, personal work, meaning therapy or reading, whatever it is, to expand your understanding of how you awareness or walk in the world is helpful. But because I could see, let's talk about our feelings. And I was like, tell me what really happened. You know, I think that that initial resistance can be there, but what I know is, you know, at some level, if they're willing to get together, most siblings, there's some, you know, seed of love there still, and maybe there's a whole bunch, but it's just buried or it's right out there. It just all depends on the family dynamics. But if, you know, if nobody's started doing their work or anything like that, what I think is there could be initial resistance, but sticking with that process and those, you know, call it the five guidelines. And it may be the four guidelines, we will have to formalize that, I think, for how you might do this sort of thing. And I think if you stick with it, if people start, it may feel awkward and weird at first if you're talking about how you felt about something, whatever, but your story is your story, and maybe it's all analytical because that's the safest place to be.

Walker Bird [00:33:21]:
Just this happened, then this happened, then this happened, then this happened, then this happened. But in that process, I think there could be some loosening up, especially if there's. If people are working hard not to reveal or have their judgmental reaction take over.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:38]:
Right, right.

Walker Bird [00:33:39]:
And make it about their experience versus the speaker.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:41]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:33:42]:
So what I'm trying to do is help give a framework for. For a whole range of people who might be interested in doing this. Fascinating. Didn't see the conversation go into this. I've talked a lot. But let me ask you this question. How do you think your relationships with your siblings changed after that weekend?

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:06]:
Oh, I think we were closer, more connected, more compassionate. And I think it's been like a continuing evolution. Like, I don't.

Walker Bird [00:34:24]:
Like.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:24]:
I think it was gradual. I think when you're that vulnerable, when often in those relationships you're playing a role, then it can be a lot of fear of, oh, I shouldn't have told them that. You know, they're going to reject me or judge me or whatever. And so I would guess everybody worked through that process of it, but I don't think anybody abandoned each other after that. I think ultimately it did, you know, bring us closer. Like, we can share really hard things that happened in our life and we could hold space for each other, but I still think the integration of. It's still happening.

Walker Bird [00:35:17]:
All these years later, the girl time trying on the dresses in a joyful way, I think is the fruit. Seven years later after that meeting. And maybe that set the started it. It was the planting of the seed. Lovely. I like to think of it that way.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:40]:
Yeah. Like everything. Family is complex.

Walker Bird [00:35:48]:
It is.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:49]:
Not everybody has siblings. And these are conversations I've had with, you know, parents and a single child as well. They're just hard conversations. We carry so much story about how we remember things and how we value things that it can be difficult for us to be open to more perspective. I'm not saying that that's bad. I think being open to multiple perspectives is actually one of the healthiest things we can do. I just know that it's hard. It's.

Theresa Hubbard [00:36:35]:
It's hard. Our brain struggles with the both and it couldn't. It can be this and it can be that all at the same time. All at the same time.

Walker Bird [00:36:48]:
As opposed to.

Theresa Hubbard [00:36:50]:
My story's the right story. I remember it right. My memory's better. Right. Whatever. I mean, whatever those stories are. Yeah, yeah. I was older than you when that happened.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:02]:
Of course I remember better. Whatever. It doesn't matter. There's a lot of things that can get in the way.

Walker Bird [00:37:13]:
So if you engage in one of these sessions with siblings or parents even, and everybody has their chance to talk and there's going to be a few spots where somebody rolls their eyes and it's like, okay, you know, we need to take a break or whatever it is.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:29]:
Yep.

Walker Bird [00:37:30]:
And come back. Remember the, you know, the guidelines, the four, five guidelines.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:35]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:37:37]:
And everybody manages to. To get through and it goes reasonably well at Least.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:43]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:37:44]:
While you're in it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:45]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:37:45]:
And then somebody got their feelings hurt in the process.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:47]:
Sure.

Walker Bird [00:37:48]:
What's the best way for. And there may not be a best way. It may depend just on all the dynamics involved. But what is. What's a way to approach that piece?

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:01]:
Whoever has the most space, that's the most grounded, just go hug them or sit next to them. Just don't abandon them.

Walker Bird [00:38:11]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:12]:
Yeah. Ask them, you know, can I just hold your hand?

Walker Bird [00:38:18]:
What if it's two weeks later, same get together. What do you. What's the. How does that help versus another approach would be we need to talk.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:31]:
Just connection, just safety, allowing people to work through it. I mean, open the door. I mean, if there's more conversation that somebody wants to have. But I would say don't avoid it because this time isn't about discussion. It really is just sharing. Yeah, sure. Yeah. It's inevitable.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:59]:
I'm sure we all got our feelings hurt at some point.

Walker Bird [00:39:03]:
Yeah, sure. I mean, and it could just be the result of it challenging your story, your recollection.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:10]:
Right, right, right. And we don't like that. Yeah, scary, scary. Right. What does that mean if I allow that story to be possible too?

Walker Bird [00:39:24]:
Interesting.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:25]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:39:27]:
Something came to mind when we were going through that about my dad. He would, and this is a couple years before he died. I mean, maybe in that five year period, you know, when I was trying to go see him frequently, he would say things like, you didn't have a very happy childhood. But he was clueless and not curious about it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:56]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:39:56]:
He was like, my childhood was great because he was like the only child and the only grandchild. So everybody doted on him, his story, you know, I wasn't there, so. But I take it it was true. And so, you know, and over time he would just say, you know, you're just so serious. And I think those observations, while accurate. True. Right. With, you know, the missed opportunity is the curiosity piece with, you know, tell me what it was like for you.

Walker Bird [00:40:34]:
But that's terrifying as a parent.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:37]:
Absolutely.

Walker Bird [00:40:38]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:38]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:40:41]:
Oh, you know, that's the role that you, you feel I played. Whether I played it or not, I'm listening. And maybe I have to leave open the possibility that that's the way that it was. What are you thinking? You closed your eyes to take that in.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:58]:
Oh, it's just sad. Such a missed opportunity for him to really connect with you.

Walker Bird [00:41:04]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:04]:
Instead of avoiding your pain, which is what he did, he wasn't open to having his story challenged the way he said it, you know.

Walker Bird [00:41:16]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:16]:
And that basically, like, I was good. There's something wrong with you.

Walker Bird [00:41:22]:
Yeah. Because it would come along with, you know, well, I did a pretty good job raising all of you.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:29]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:41:30]:
You know, I mean, look how everybody's turned out.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:32]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:41:33]:
You know, and it was all about what career they had.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:35]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:41:36]:
To him.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:37]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:41:37]:
And then I also remember because he wasn't like my oldest sister. Cut off contact. She had all she could do. Yeah. And him saying, I did, you know, I did nothing wrong and he believed. Nothing wrong.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:55]:
I believe you. Yeah. He needed to believe that.

Walker Bird [00:41:58]:
And my point being that it takes a lot of courage. But if you want to have a stronger relationship with your siblings or your children or your parent.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:08]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:42:09]:
Engaging along those lines and doing it the way you're talking about, at least for starters. Right. Not only can create a deeper relationship, but the healing that could come, you know, if my dad had said, what was it like for you? You know, and we had that kind of conversation.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:32]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:42:33]:
The healing that he could have, you know, created if he was non reactive, non judgmental in the process. Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:41]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:42:42]:
Tremendous. So missed opportunity for him and for me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:49]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:42:52]:
So I need to make sure I have a conversation like that with my daughter so I can do better. You know, he did the best. What I know is he was doing the best he knew how to do. He just didn't know very much, you.

Theresa Hubbard [00:43:10]:
Know, and he wasn't very brave.

Walker Bird [00:43:14]:
Yeah. I think that's true. Being vulnerable was not part of the agenda. And vulnerability. I want to make this point too really clear because I think people could be resistant to it. Being vulnerable does not mean you're weak.

Theresa Hubbard [00:43:31]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:43:32]:
When you say it takes courage, it's because you're strong enough to take whatever comes back when you ask the question.

Theresa Hubbard [00:43:39]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:43:41]:
And to hold space that they're. Whether it's all true or it's just their truth and respect it. Who. That takes strength.

Theresa Hubbard [00:43:54]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:43:56]:
So I hope we can all be strong and have courage to try.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:03]:
Yeah. I think being brave is, you know, it's a word I used for decades. Life is complex. Opportunities are always in front of us. Will we step into the unknown or will we not? And we know how hard it is. I mean, we talk about that often in the work that we do with people, whether directly in the therapy room or on retreat. You know, we're trying to develop enough resilience in our body that being brave doesn't feel like it'll kill us.

Walker Bird [00:44:46]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:47]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:44:48]:
How do you balance those efforts with peace? Does that make sense to you?

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:59]:
Tell me more.

Walker Bird [00:45:04]:
Sometimes just being, you know. And here's the thing. We all want. No, I don't know about everybody else, but what I want or have wanted in the past is let's everybody get along and just enjoy what it is that we're doing or just in the sitting and enjoying the evening, the sunset, whatever it might be. And that's a lovely space to be in. And so, you know, there's peace in that and the just sitting next to people that you love.

Theresa Hubbard [00:45:29]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:45:30]:
Right. And there may be all kinds of complications, but there can still be that peace. But if you. If that's all you ever do, then you haven't extended any curiosity to see what it could be or to heal hurts even just by the other person speaking their truth. And so how do you balance, you know, can't always be. Well, let's. You know what I'm saying? Maybe I'm not saying it very well. How do you balance this being curious with allowing the peace of just being together to be there, too?

Theresa Hubbard [00:46:09]:
Oh, man. I think every family situation would be so different. I mean, it's interesting because I think. Did the effort that we all put into that weekend allow that to just happen more naturally? That's what I believe. Because I'm thinking, do we put effort in now to, like, mix it up? I don't think so. You know, we can sit and have, you know, deep conversation. We can sit and have, you know, playful, you know, just hanging out. We can.

Theresa Hubbard [00:47:13]:
Yeah. I mean, I just. I think it made it easier to just be, you know, if someone needs more, like, we can do that.

Walker Bird [00:47:23]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:47:24]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:47:26]:
And I guess, you know, if you're curious, it doesn't always have to be a super serious conversation. If you are going along the spectrum, like so many things. Right. That the. The peace and the ease comes along with that process because you have put it out there on the table.

Theresa Hubbard [00:47:46]:
Yeah. And it's not playing a role of curiosity. Right. It's really genuinely being curious.

Walker Bird [00:47:53]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:47:54]:
And so, you know, if you see someone's demeanor being off or if they're more quiet, allowing that, you know, I just don't know that we're very truly observant. I mean, I think some of us are ultra observant, but I don't want to be ultra observant all the time. Yeah. And I. The reality is I'm probably less observant with my siblings. Yeah. Just because they're so familiar. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:48:34]:
So familiar. But so it depends on the space that I'm in. You know, as well. But I do think that if it was not going to be so smooth as ours, I feel like happened.

Walker Bird [00:48:58]:
It.

Theresa Hubbard [00:48:59]:
Would probably take more than one session of spending that time together. Right. You know, really sitting down. And it's like, you know, what can we each manage at this, any particular point? And then are we willing for it to be different six months later? And six months later and six months later, you know, because we. Because we like the known, you know, we like certainty so much. You know, we could have had that sibling get together and then renegotiated rules and then just held on to the new rules. Whatever we decided the new rules were right. And that's not what I'm talking about.

Theresa Hubbard [00:49:35]:
And so, you know, we're really. Are we willing to start an evolution of our relationships? And so, you know, if you, if people need that additional structure, I think you then have to be open to renegotiating what that looks like. You know, maybe for some people, they need their next 15 times together to be more serious, to create more safety. Maybe some siblings need to work on their relationship together because there's so much pain between the two of them. I mean, I think that's the benefit of, you know, having a therapist come in, you know, for guidance. I mean, some people just don't have any tools, any. I mean, I'm not. I don't know that that weekend would have gone so well had I not been a therapist for 13 years prior.

Theresa Hubbard [00:50:33]:
Right. And. And my siblings, I think, have a, you know, a decent idea of who I am, you know, now. And they know that I'm not pushing anything other than healthier relationship and allowing us to all be in different places. So. Yeah, do we need to dive in deep and then the next four times we need to just sit out by a fire and bullshit? Maybe. You know, I think every system is going to have different needs. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:15]:
And if you can't figure it out in your system, then find a really good family therapist to help you create some structure and compassion and. Yeah, that's what I think.

Walker Bird [00:51:30]:
Sure. There's great opportunity.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:35]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. There is. You know, and. And before we wrap up, because I'm guessing we're close. Yeah. You know, the, the sibling that we don't see, you know, that made a choice to not be in relationship with us. I mean, I'm still hopeful.

Walker Bird [00:52:07]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:07]:
You know, that someday they'll make a different choice. And whatever, you know, their life experience has been because they weren't there that day. This was after that, after they had severed their relationship with us is when we had this gathering. It's what prompted actually the gathering for me. I was like, okay, there's obviously stuff that we really don't understand about each other, so let's do this. I also respect her choice, even if I don't like it, that it is what she feels like she needs for herself, regardless of the reason. And I know the times that she's, you know, has reached out to a few of my siblings, again, I think it's been a long time, but they were very welcoming. You know, my youngest sister put a tremendous amount of effort into welcoming her into her home, remodeling her basement to give her space.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:21]:
I think my brother and I contributed financially to the remodeling, you know, and so it's not like when the few times she's reached out, she's been met with rejection, she's been met with welcome. But again, we're just not that simple. And my guess is there is an incredibly tremendous amount that we do not know about her life.

Walker Bird [00:53:49]:
Sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:52]:
And we may never know about her life. Yeah. And so. Yeah, it's tricky.

Walker Bird [00:54:05]:
Yeah. I just. I feel this longing, you know, and a pain. This pain associated with that is interesting. You know, even with a relationship that has been distant for years, I can feel that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:19]:
Yeah. Yeah. Again, we all have different perspectives of how things were. And I think there are a lot of things about her, you know, that she saw, I don't know, more clearly. I mean, I remember her saying to me before I got married the first time, why would you marry someone that you fight with all the time? And I was like, we don't fight all the time. She's like, you do? I was like, I don't think so. We did. But I think growing up in our household, for me, it was so normalized that I had become desensitized to it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:09]:
Does that make sense? But she hadn't, and so she saw that more clearly than I did. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:55:20]:
Anyway, maybe if she'd presented it in a different. I mean, the tone that you use, that judgmental kind of.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:27]:
Oh, for sure.

Walker Bird [00:55:28]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:29]:
We were young. I mean, I would have been, like, 20, you know, she would have been 21 or 22. Yeah, yeah. No doubt. It's like, you don't know. Yeah. You don't know me. You don't know my life.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:41]:
Yeah, yeah. For sure.

Walker Bird [00:55:42]:
It would have been just another example of a different approach, could have generated a different response. But maybe not, given your ages.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:51]:
Yeah. It's hard to know in family. Situation. But being curious, I believe on some level, absolutely would have been more helpful. I think it is more helpful. I just don't know that we know how to do it. We definitely come across with more judgment and shaming, making fun of teasing, whatever. Putting down.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:11]:
I mean, then. Yeah, but we did plenty of putting down of her when she was young.

Walker Bird [00:56:16]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:17]:
Yeah. Which was allowed and not okay. But it was what my parents grew up with too. And it was. Just wasn't a cycle they broke. I was a cycle I broke.

Walker Bird [00:56:28]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:28]:
Yes. Do not allow my children to. To treat each other that way.

Walker Bird [00:56:35]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:35]:
Yeah. Do not allow them to hit each other, hold each other down, tickle each other, punch each other. Just wasn't allowed. So, yeah. Relationships. So complex.

Walker Bird [00:56:54]:
So complex and so capable of being made better.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:01]:
Absolutely. Different. I mean, they can just be different. You know, I. I'll finish with this story. So last weekend, my youngest son and his friends came over to play D and D. And one of them was having a rough day and. And I could hear it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:38]:
And I don't normally, you know, I'm not usually engaged. I don't go check on my kids when they have friends over. Like, I don't. It's just not me. And I was hearing, you know, some. Some stress down there, but I really wasn't paying much attention to it until I heard someone suffering. And as soon as I heard suffering, like, my body, like, engages and I have to react. And, you know, I didn't grow up.

Theresa Hubbard [00:58:09]:
I mean, I grew up with that, but I haven't had that in so long because I didn't allow that amongst them, that I don't hear that. And so it was so shocking to me. And I jump up and I run downstairs and my son is holding down his friend and I, you know, yell loudly and very out of character to get the fuck off of him. And. And he's like, what? You know, you know, like he's startled because he's doing what he thinks he's supposed to be doing because his friend was really getting out of control and was, I guess, you know, shoving people around and potentially breaking things and, you know, whatever. And, you know, for me, I don't care about things like the things like if he had punched a hole in the wall or if he had broken something, like, I wouldn't have liked it, but I wouldn't have had any big overreaction to it. And so for me, it was, if someone is not acting right in your house, you ask them to leave or you tell them to leave. You have to leave my house.

Theresa Hubbard [00:59:16]:
And my expectation is, if that had not worked, that you just call the police and have them make you leave your house. Like, you don't jack around with the boundaries. You hold the boundary. But again, we've never had that in our house, even with having three boys and a lot of boys over. Like, we had never had a situation like that before. And, you know, and my son was surprised because he thought he was doing what he needed to do or like to protect the house and the other people. And, you know, what I always go to is you never know what someone else's trauma is, ever. And so for me, you don't restrain people like that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:59:59]:
And for me, it is really like an energetic piece that's more important than this physical piece that we have been taught to do or whatever. And Luke's a second degree black belt, and so, you know, his capability is significant and he's an athlete and he works out all the time. And, you know, for me, that, you know, the young man was like, you know, I'm. I'm leaving. I'm never coming back. I'm never talking to you guys. And he goes upstairs and I say to Luke, you now go apologize to him for restraining him now. And he went up there and I said something to the, you know, the people that were, you know, the other kids that were there, and I call them kids, young adults.

Theresa Hubbard [01:00:52]:
And they were like, oh, yeah, like, we all grew up in rough households. Like, that's normal. We were just trying to keep things from getting broken. And I was like, I mean, it was just so hard, you know, to hear how normal that was for all those other kids. And then I go upstairs and, you know, Luke and, you know, the young man are out on the front porch and, you know, the energy is still high and. But who's Luke doesn't want to harm anyone. In listening to him hold space, accept responsibility for his part, be curious with him. And they were out there for an hour and they were going to come back inside.

Theresa Hubbard [01:01:50]:
And I couldn't hear everything that they were saying, but I could hear the tone change, I could feel the energy change, you know, and the young man was worried that I'd be upset with him. You know, when he came back in and they came back in and I just said, this isn't how I raised my children. I understand that Luke did what he thought he needed to do. I don't want you harming things in my house, but it's more important to me that you don't harm People, I have a hanging, kicking bag in the other side of the basement. And so should you come over again and you're feeling that out of control, my expectation is that you go let your energy out on that bag. If you need help, just ask for it. And he was like, okay. It was a really powerful experience of the shift of energy that can happen when we go towards someone.

Theresa Hubbard [01:02:55]:
Right. Who is struggling regardless of the choices that they were making. And I'm not saying this works in all situations. Right. Right. Because sometimes it may not be safe.

Walker Bird [01:03:04]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [01:03:05]:
And it's possible that may not have been safe, but it was. But they both allowed the space. They both were open enough, even with the level of distress they were both in, to allow perspective, curiosity, change in story, compassion, understanding, connection. And the young man said, I just need to go because I need to go sleep. That's really the best thing for me to do right now. Which was really mature and responsible despite sensing it. And for Luke to allow that as well. Right.

Theresa Hubbard [01:03:53]:
Not try to rescue, but to trust that his friend knew what he needed to. Right. And Luke's regret not taking over the situation. Right. And needing again to rescue, you know, and then they hugged. Big connected hug, you know, when he left. If we could learn how to do that. Right.

Theresa Hubbard [01:04:26]:
What was most important to Luke once he got out of protector mode, what was it?

Walker Bird [01:04:36]:
Relationship.

Theresa Hubbard [01:04:37]:
Relationship. Right.

Walker Bird [01:04:43]:
Yeah. I mean, the end result could be far different. Fine. Get the F out of here.

Theresa Hubbard [01:04:48]:
Right.

Walker Bird [01:04:49]:
Or nothing.

Theresa Hubbard [01:04:50]:
Right. Right. Healthy relationship.

Walker Bird [01:04:56]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [01:04:56]:
Yeah. Do you want healthy relationship? I don't think everybody wants healthy relationship. Some people just want relationship or connection or not abandonment. Right. That you have to want healthy relationship.

Walker Bird [01:05:11]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [01:05:21]:
What are you thinking?

Walker Bird [01:05:25]:
Even if it. It was the end of the relationship, the. The reaching out before it got the attempt even, you know, let's say that there it was non responsive for more aggression, you know, out on the porch, fine. And he storms off and Luke stomps in. Right. That still, that reaching out, I think is, is. Has it lays the groundwork, plants the seed for healing at some level, whether the relationship ended or not. Right.

Walker Bird [01:06:00]:
Because at some point, you know, whether it's some night, sure. 20 years from then.

Theresa Hubbard [01:06:06]:
Sure.

Walker Bird [01:06:07]:
Somebody may wake up in the night and it occurs to them, you know.

Theresa Hubbard [01:06:12]:
Right, right.

Walker Bird [01:06:15]:
That was an opportunity and I did the best I could. And actually the end result is okay. But it just creates an example and a space for healing. Anyway, that's it. All of it.

Theresa Hubbard [01:06:32]:
Yeah. And just reinforcing it was obviously something they both chose. Right. Because one of them could have chosen it, and it wouldn't have ended like it did, but they. They both chose.

Walker Bird [01:06:44]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [01:06:44]:
Healthy relationship. Yeah.

Walker Bird [01:06:49]:
Okay.

Theresa Hubbard [01:06:50]:
Anyway, our longest one yet. No, I think we're good. I think we're good.

Walker Bird [01:06:56]:
I love you.

Theresa Hubbard [01:06:56]:
I love you, too. Thanks, babe. Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth, and we strive to be more compassionate every day.