Navigating the Complexity of Friendship: Growth, Boundaries, and Self-Awareness

Walker Bird [00:00:00]:
We are so excited about sharing with you our new retreat. Becoming Unshakeable: From Self-Doubt to Daring.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:08]:
Yeah, we love doing retreats. It's a lot of fun. We really enjoy that group in person process. Everything that Walker and I create is something that we do with a lot of intention. Every retreat we do is a new retreat. We don't repeat retreats. And so it's always an adventure for us in creating the next one based off where he and I are in our own personal growth journey.

Walker Bird [00:00:36]:
Yeah. We look forward to holding space for you.

Theresa Hubbard [00:00:38]:
Yeah. We hope you'll consider joining us.

Walker Bird [00:00:45]:
My Inner Knowing empowering you to find your compass for the journey. We are dedicated to supporting you to rediscover and trust your natural ability to navigate life. Each day by sharing insight and experience through the lens of two professional communicators and their guests, we intend to prompt internal inquiry that supports all those willing to explore a unique path.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:13]:
How are you?

Walker Bird [00:01:14]:
I'm good.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:14]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good. So tonight, today we are talking about friendship over our lifetime. Yeah. What immediately comes to mind?

Walker Bird [00:01:32]:
Oh, the few friends that I've kept over time.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:38]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:01:39]:
Others that you know. Is it last Brown. Some people are here for a season and some people here for a reason.

Theresa Hubbard [00:01:48]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:01:48]:
So. And there it's poignant to think about, you know, because I love people and those friendships have come and gone and we're not in contact anymore. So there's just a couple. Really.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:03]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:02:04]:
That have stayed. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:10]:
Big question. What do you think your biggest learning or takeaway has been with the different friendships that you've had?

Walker Bird [00:02:23]:
Oh.

Theresa Hubbard [00:02:26]:
Ah.

Walker Bird [00:02:41]:
There's two. First, I appreciate reaching a point in growth and maturity where I'm kinder and not so blunt to people who I consider to be friends.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:01]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:03:02]:
I could speak my truth, but I'm just much better at a lot bigger perspective that is less on judgment or superiority or, you know, pecking order. Those sorts of things that I would have done in the past. And so it's. I appreciate being at that point. And I'm not saying that I do it perfectly at all, because I don't. And I have very few friends. I mean, I have many friends, but not people that I would go ask for anything if I was in trouble and who I'd be confident would respond anyway. That's one.

Theresa Hubbard [00:03:51]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:03:53]:
And the other is having also grown enough to recognize that some of the friendships that I had in the past were with people that were repeating an unhealthy pattern from my childhood. Yeah. So. Of abandonment and narcissistic behavior, that sort of thing. And I love those people, too.

Theresa Hubbard [00:04:25]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:04:25]:
You know, and. And still do love parts of them. Right. But recognize that continuing to try to be in relationship with them was harmful to me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:04:38]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:04:39]:
And not good for them either, frankly. You know, and so it's. I think it's important for me to, you know, to be aware of the energy that I may put out there that sends a message to narcissistic people that I might be a target and just, you know, holding my own energy around that, holding myself around that in relationship. And it may be, you know, when people are narcissistic, it may be that you can still be friends when you know enough and are experienced enough to set healthy boundaries that they won't push. They may do it with other people, but anyway, that's kind of where I think I am now. How about you?

Theresa Hubbard [00:05:33]:
Hold on.

Walker Bird [00:05:36]:
Oh, you've got more.

Theresa Hubbard [00:05:38]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:05:41]:
Go ahead. I'm in one of those moods.

Theresa Hubbard [00:05:44]:
You are. I am sassy. What. What do you think when you started being in relationship with friends differently? What do you think was happening for you? What were you aware of about yourself when you were again, just changing the dynamics of different friendships? Yeah. What about you? What's changing?

Walker Bird [00:06:26]:
Becoming self aware.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:28]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:06:29]:
That's the biggest thing.

Theresa Hubbard [00:06:30]:
Okay.

Walker Bird [00:06:31]:
You know, I mean, we all have an awareness, but when you. As you grow, I think for me, I am a lot more adept at stepping outside of the moment of the exchange and having an observer role. Kind of like somebody sitting back here. Right. And that's changed, without a doubt, because before I would just react.

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:07]:
How did. How has that helped you in different friendships?

Walker Bird [00:07:17]:
Well, it's helped me terminate a couple and did it well, but was very direct in my experience of the relationship and open to some sort of continuation, but knowing that it was like 99.9% unlikely. And that was true.

Theresa Hubbard [00:07:40]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:07:42]:
So I also think that in exchanges with people, I. That observer ability to shift into an observer, what is happening for me right now generates. It's that pause between stimulus and response that I'm always, you know, going back to. And it gives me space to not just be reactive, to consider what I'm wanting to consider the impact that what I say may have. And I just think all those things go together towards continuing relationship or ceasing it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:08:39]:
Yeah, yeah.

Walker Bird [00:08:40]:
But I do. It makes you do it better. You know, I'm kinder, less judgmental. I've always been helpful. Can I help you? What can I do? But I also have been harsh at times, especially Younger, like in my, you know, teens and twenties, I would just cut to the bone, I'm sure, you know, just tell like it is.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:10]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:09:10]:
Well, there's a whole lot of judgment between. Behind telling it like it is. I'm not so certain about black and white and much more forgiving of people. People's humanness than I used to be.

Theresa Hubbard [00:09:26]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:09:27]:
You know, I just. I recognize all the mistakes and times I've fallen on my face and haven't been a good friend or a partner. And when you have that, you know, ability to be an observer is when you start to kind of take stock of, you know, the totality of yourself and of humanity. Those are big answers to a question. But it's true, you know, I'm just. And maybe it just happens, you know, with age, but I think it takes effort, too.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:06]:
Yeah, I would think so.

Walker Bird [00:10:08]:
And desire and want to be a good person. I want to be a better person tomorrow and a better person the day after that. All the way till I check out.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:18]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:10:19]:
This time around.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:23]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:10:27]:
Did that answer your question? Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:10:34]:
When I think about, you know, friendships, I go all the way back, you know, to grade school. I think about, you know, friends by proximity, you know, maybe neighbors, friends that I went to school with. Yeah. If I think about those two categories, I think friendships for me were always complicated. It felt. It always felt complicated. There was a girl that moved in next door at some point. I don't remember when, maybe when I was 8, 9 or 10.

Theresa Hubbard [00:11:25]:
And she was a few years older than me, and we spent a lot of time together. And it was nice. I mean, it was nice to be at her house. She had a younger sister, but she was quite a bit younger. And I don't remember exactly how old I was when her sister was born, but her house was much quieter than mine. And her parents, I would say more engaged because there just wasn't as much. There just wasn't as much going on. And then friendships in regards to, like, neighbors who I also went to school with, that always felt very competitive.

Theresa Hubbard [00:12:23]:
And I didn't really understand why, just that it did, you know, Like, I remember, I mean, I was tall from. I was tall. And there was a girl that lived across the street from me who went to school with us. And her, or in some other people, were always trying to convince me she was taller than me. She wasn't taller than me, but there was, like, you know, like, young gaslighting, you know, like. But. But I don't know what it was about other than, you Know, there was some competition going on, and I liked being tall. And so I know that not everybody likes being tall, but I did.

Theresa Hubbard [00:13:11]:
And so maybe there was some of that in there. Maybe it was something I talked about or felt used to feel better about myself. I don't know. And then I felt like in grade school, similarly, like, I didn't ever really feel like I had, like, a group of friends. I felt like I was going from group to group. Whoever seemed to be more accepting of me in that moment. I don't look back at grade school and be like, oh, yeah, like that that was somebody that I consistently had a relationship with or that I felt like, you know, was safe and consistent. And then when I went to high school, things changed.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:09]:
Some kids from grade school went to high school with me, but a lot didn't. They went to different high schools. And similar for me, I feel like I had a lot of different friend groups. I think there were people that I hung out with more, but I don't know that I ever felt like I had a place. And maybe everybody felt that way. I don't know. I just know that that's what it felt like for me. And there are a few people, you know, that I, you know, probably have a conversation with from grade school or high school every, I don't know, three, four, five years.

Theresa Hubbard [00:14:58]:
I don't go to high school reunions anymore. I don't know that I felt like I made a new friend in college. I think I was so focused on relationship and working that, I mean, I have some very vague memories of some people from college, but.

Walker Bird [00:15:24]:
Were you married in college or did you marry?

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:26]:
Not till my senior year.

Walker Bird [00:15:27]:
Okay.

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:28]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I.

Walker Bird [00:15:31]:
Did you worked your way through college?

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:33]:
I worked, Yeah, I worked.

Walker Bird [00:15:34]:
Paid for all of it yourself?

Theresa Hubbard [00:15:35]:
Yeah, yeah, I worked my way through, um. Yes, Paid for it myself. I did theater at least freshman year, maybe sophomore year. But again, I don't. I think it was just something I was doing. You know, relationship friendships weren't something that I saw my parents have. My parents were active in our church, and so people would come to our house for, you know, I don't remember the initials, but, like, some different groups, but I don't really remember my parents having friends. And so I don't think I was demonstrated friends.

Theresa Hubbard [00:16:23]:
And so I think, like, I would look like I like hanging out with people is what I wanted to do, but I don't think I had any understanding of friendship. And then I think when I started work, I think people were friends by Proximity, you know, just because we were around each other a lot. There was one woman that I hung out with for a number of years after I stopped working there. But again, I just don't feel like I had any real sense of friendship, I would say. I don't think I really even began to understand friendships until I met Nancy. And that would have been 16 years ago. Yeah. And we met on retreat, actually.

Theresa Hubbard [00:17:26]:
And it was something that I think, you know, while I think she had more friends than I did, I think we were kind of in the mess of figuring out friendship together. I don't know. I mean, it felt that way. Yeah. Like we're just both trying to figure this out. I think at this point in my life, I don't know that I still quite understand friendship. I love a lot of people I know, and I have relationship with a lot of different people. But when I think about, like, what is friendship? I could say all of those people are my friends, you know, I care about them.

Theresa Hubbard [00:18:35]:
I want freedom for them and joy for them. You know, I want healthy relationship for them. But when I think about. Sometimes I think it's a comparative piece, you know, where I see people going over to each other's houses all the time. Like, I've never had that, you know, so.

Walker Bird [00:19:10]:
Well, you'd have it with Nancy if she was here.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:13]:
Oh, she was around. Yeah. Yeah. And so, like, you know, Marlene is my friend, but, you know, we see other probably, I don't know, four times a year. Yeah, It's. I feel like, you know, interestingly, you know, like, most of the people that I. That I would call my friends, that I don't see except a few times a year are. Who are all people who may be similar to me, you know, in regards to, like, our families are very important to us.

Theresa Hubbard [00:19:45]:
We spend a lot of time, you know, with our family or doing, you know, different, you know, activities. But maybe we're all a little bit more introverted. I don't know, you know, but I don't. I mean, I like. I like hosting and having people over, but I couldn't do that all the time. You know, I like the people I work with, you know, it's a nice, you know, space, and we do things together a few times a year, you know, I'll take, you know, my team out for an afternoon activity, and then once a year, we go on a trip, you know, together, and we have a wonderful time together. It's always fun. It's always an adventure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:20:32]:
But we don't hang out with each Other, you know, outside of those times. You know, I mean, everybody has their own life, and we just come together and work together nicely, and then we go and do our own things. So even though maybe we have some similar interests, I think we value each other and love each other and want what's the best for each other. But I do think there is, again, we all are doing, like, our own thing. We don't. I don't feel like there's. At this point in my life, I don't feel like a desperateness around friendship. You know, I feel like there are people that I have had as friends.

Theresa Hubbard [00:21:32]:
Oh, like, thinking in the last 10 years who I am no longer in relationship with. And, you know, while that's sad for me, I also, you know, recognize that, you know, we all have stuff in our life. There were ways of being in relationship that I was in that weren't healthy for me. And when I needed to change those dynamics because it was taking from me, it was just more than I could give, more than I could do, those relationships ended, and that was sad.

Walker Bird [00:22:19]:
Can you share, I mean, without identifying, but something specific about when you say when it wasn't healthy for me?

Theresa Hubbard [00:22:26]:
Yeah. So I like, overall, you know, I'm a very giving person, and I'm very generous. And if people, you know, are wanting or needing something, you know, my first thought is, how can this work? That is my first thought. And I recognize that. That there is a piece of how my brain works that does problem solving, that wants to find the answer. But then I also recognize there's a codependent reaction to that, where I then am instantly taking on the burden, trying to find a way to make this work, whatever it is. And so for me, there was. Oh, my gosh, several years ago, there was just.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:24]:
There was a lot, you know, going on for me in regards to my health. You know, where I had to have those multiple surgeries. The retreat center that I owned caught on fire. There was. I mean, it was a lot, you know, just going through that. The process of that, you know, with the insurance and the rebuild. And the home was built in the 1860s. And so it wasn't an easy rebuild.

Theresa Hubbard [00:23:54]:
You know, it was really complex getting all that work done. And there were things that people were asking of me on top of everything else, you know, running the business and seeing clients and being a mom and being a partner that. That I said yes to, that I should have said no to, because it put me, like, in a place where I had extended myself too far. And then there Was on top of that, someone that had been with me for a long time was making a big life change. And when they talked to me about it, I instantly went to, don't worry about it. We'll figure it out. Like, we'll take care of it. And then within, you know, I don't know, a week or so, I felt so burdened and so heavy and recognized that the only way I could make work what I said I would make work was to sacrifice myself, that what I was doing was gonna become twice as hard for me.

Theresa Hubbard [00:25:21]:
And it was hard to say, I am so sorry. I can't do that. And it was hard, the reaction to that, because I felt like I had been so supportive of so much that had happened in that person's life over a very long period of time, you know, and being, you know, very supportive of each other, you know, my life, she was supportive of my life. I was supportive of her life. And me making that choice in the messy way that I made was sad, you know, that that person felt so betrayed by me. But I wouldn't do it differently other than to have slowed down and said, let me think about this. Right? The end result would not have been different. I could not do what they were asking me to do.

Walker Bird [00:26:28]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:26:30]:
But I wish that that part of me, you know, was, you know, more skilled. And I still feel like I'm working on that. You know, when someone asks something of me, you know, I'm still trying to figure out a way to make it work. I do feel like I've slowed down some, but it's still a growth, you know, period for me. And, you know, it. You see it. How do I make it work? You know, how did I make it work? When you were in the hospital last weekend, Right. Trying to be two places at once.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:13]:
Trying to be present for you, trying to be present for the other person. Right. Hospital. Just crazily, coincidentally, right. Like, how do I. How do I make it all work?

Walker Bird [00:27:28]:
So I think it takes a lot of courage when you've made a commitment, you know? And are you proud of yourself for being able, courageous enough to say I just. Oh, absolutely, because you could have tried and just made an absolute disaster of it and the whole thing. Worse.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:47]:
It would have been worse.

Walker Bird [00:27:49]:
Just saying I cannot.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:51]:
Right? Absolutely.

Walker Bird [00:27:52]:
Even though I said I would.

Theresa Hubbard [00:27:53]:
Yeah, absolutely would have been worse. It would have been worse. It would have been. I would have been angry and resentful and exhausted and overwhelmed, and, yes, it would not. So I am proud of myself. As hard as it was you know, I did not anticipate, you know, losing that relationship for that, for that choice. But I accept the consequence of the choice that I made.

Walker Bird [00:28:23]:
Sure, yeah, sure.

Theresa Hubbard [00:28:26]:
So I think friendships are complicated and messy like everything else. You know, it just makes me think, is it just one more thing we don't talk about really explicitly or thoughtfully or intentionally? I mean, I've tried with my children. You know, why do you like that person? What is it about them that you enjoy, you know, being around? You know, do they treat you well? You know, I'm trying to help them be curious about their relationships. And I, I, it's funny because I'm thinking if I asked my kids, you know, do you think I have a lot of friends? I think they'd be like, oh, my God, yes, I think they would think that because they know I know a lot of people. And you, they see people come over to the house, right. And they see, you know, us have, you know, really great in depth discussions. And so I think that they probably have a very different, like, perception of what that is. And so now I want to ask them, so I will.

Walker Bird [00:29:39]:
Yeah, I, well, you know, I think there's levels, I guess, of friendship. There's. Because when we broaden it out, there's a lot of people that I would say I'm friends with too. But you know, typically when I think of friendship, I look back over my life and there's been like, you know, one best friend, you know, not multiple, that I was the hangout with everybody type of person. I usually focused on one or a handful where I would share, you know, my problems or, you know, a lot more detail than I would go into with most people. But there are many people that we interact with now that I consider to be friends. But we don't call each other up and have conversations in between the times where we set a date for dinner, that sort of thing.

Theresa Hubbard [00:30:33]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:30:34]:
And you know, I, part of me wants to migrate a little bit towards that just because I don't have many right now. You know, you, my daughter, my good friend in St. Louis who's been there since I was a, in college. And those are the, those are the people that I really open up to. You know what I'm saying? That you call, hey, I'm in trouble or I need some advice or can you help me with this or that, those sorts, that sort of thing, you know, whatever it might be.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:09]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:31:10]:
And I think it, I think it becomes harder as we get older. Were not in environments like college. You know, I was in a fraternity. And so you're immediately around all these people all the time. And it made some people just despise each other. Right. Can't get away.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:28]:
But the proximity piece.

Walker Bird [00:31:29]:
But the proximity piece and a shared experience. Right. And then, you know, people that were at the trial Lords College. But I had people that I thought would become significant friends from that, but it just petered away. And I think it. A lot of times, it just does.

Theresa Hubbard [00:31:48]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, I think there's a lot of friends that I have that are people that I see. Yeah. A few times a year or even a very few years, but I would still consider them friends. Even though we aren't talking regularly.

Walker Bird [00:32:16]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:32:17]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:32:17]:
I mean, there it. If somebody. If I consider somebody to be a friend, if they called me up and said, hey, can you help me with this? And I was able, you know, I would. I would. I would want to immediately. Right. So it's just, like I said, there's just degree, I guess. I don't know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:32:37]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:32:38]:
And that's okay, too.

Theresa Hubbard [00:32:39]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:32:40]:
But I think I need to make some effort in actually engaging in activities with some people, you know, like my next hike.

Theresa Hubbard [00:32:48]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:32:49]:
See if somebody wants to go.

Theresa Hubbard [00:32:50]:
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting. I mean, just having the conversation just makes me think of. We probably all have different definitions of friends, you know, what is a friend to you? I mean, it'll be an interesting conversation to have with my team at the office even, you know, just for. For them. What do they consider friends? What are their lives like? I mean, I do think some of them, you know, participate in, you know, activities, you know, with people regularly. You know, like, Brianna does volleyball. Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:26]:
And so, you know, she's playing sand volleyball with people. And, you know, there's like a certain, you know, definitely, like, schedule. Right. Sure.

Walker Bird [00:33:34]:
And her team.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:34]:
And her team. Yeah. But I think friendship probably is something that means something different to everybody. Yeah. But. But I think of, you know, like. Like Luke and Trenton. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:33:58]:
You know, when I. I think. Because I think of friendships, you know, like that, you know, where they. I mean, I think they talk a lot. I don't know.

Walker Bird [00:34:10]:
I know when they're together, they talk a lot.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:12]:
They do, they do. And Chris does. I mean, he talks to his friends.

Walker Bird [00:34:15]:
Almost every day, and they have a common activity.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:19]:
Yeah. Yeah. And they talk about all kinds of things. Yeah. And, you know, Cameron has a lot of, you know, work friends, you know, that he's developed over the years, and they go, you know, go to dinner they go to activities. They, you know, Couples. Yeah. As couples.

Theresa Hubbard [00:34:37]:
And, you know, they. They do things together frequently. Oh, yeah, yeah. Weekly, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Walker Bird [00:34:43]:
Just every couple of months, that sort of thing. Yeah. And I remember, you know, when I was first married, but there was people that my ex wife and I had gone to college with, so we were couples friends from college. And then. But then we would have game night and, you know, that stuff and was just, you know, that's different than how, you know, once children come along completely.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:08]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:35:09]:
Game night was over, which is, you know, it shouldn't be, but it was. But, you know, I don't have that anymore.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:19]:
So when you think about, like, the people that we hang out with, you know, like we go into activities with or we go to dinner with, you know, people that come over and hang out on our treehouse deck. Right.

Walker Bird [00:35:32]:
Your amazing deck.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:33]:
Yeah, yeah. How. Where do you put those people? You know, like, how do you define.

Walker Bird [00:35:41]:
I love those people?

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:42]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Walker Bird [00:35:46]:
I don't know. I love the people that come on our retreats too, though. But we don't hang out.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:51]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:35:51]:
You know, so I. I don't know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:35:58]:
Yeah. It's a complicated question, isn't it?

Walker Bird [00:36:00]:
Well, and I don't want to classify. I mean, I guess I'm closer with the people that we do things with more frequently, but frequently is, you know, maybe once every couple of months or month.

Theresa Hubbard [00:36:13]:
Right. So for you, is friendship the. Is friendship defined as the person you would reach out to if you were hurting or needing something?

Walker Bird [00:36:28]:
Yes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:36:28]:
Okay.

Walker Bird [00:36:29]:
Okay. That's. I guess that's my go to definition for friendship. And as we're talking, you know, because if you had asked me and do you. How many friends you have? I'd say, well, three, because I, you know, my base definition is that. But as we're talking, you know, there are people that I absolutely love. If they called me and needed something, I would be ready to go.

Theresa Hubbard [00:36:56]:
Right, right.

Walker Bird [00:36:57]:
You know. Yeah. And so that's a pretty strong friendship too.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:03]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:37:04]:
So maybe it's a difference in what I would ask for.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:12]:
Tell me more. What do you mean?

Walker Bird [00:37:14]:
Well, it's easier for me to give than to receive, I guess, is what I'm saying. You know, so. But my guess is if I feel that way, it's probably reciprocal or we wouldn't keep getting together.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:30]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:37:31]:
You know, I don't know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:37:32]:
Yeah. It's so complex.

Walker Bird [00:37:36]:
But it makes. I like the idea just because, you know, in my. Just my story is, you know, I only had one or two friends at any one time ever. And really only a few through grade school and high school. Yeah, you won from grade school and I did, but we did stuff all the time. We were always over at each other's house, you know?

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:05]:
Yeah. Yeah. I had a friend, you know, I haven't seen her in a really long time. When I was in high school, she didn't go to school with me. She didn't live near me. My dad had run first state representative.

Walker Bird [00:38:25]:
I didn't know that. Really?

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:28]:
Yeah. Whoa.

Walker Bird [00:38:29]:
That blows my mind. Cool. Anyway. Sorry.

Theresa Hubbard [00:38:33]:
Long time ago. I was very young. Anyway, there was a woman that somehow he was connected to her. I don't know if she was, like, a donor to his campaign or whatever, but she was raising her great niece, and she was a year older than me, and I remember spending time with them as well. But there was often work involved, so, you know, helping her, you know, at her house. I remember. I think the very first plane ride I took was with her grandmother, who took us to Nashville to see the Grand Old Opry and bought me, like, probably the fanciest dress I'd ever had, really. And what I know.

Walker Bird [00:39:28]:
Stories I've never heard.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:32]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:39:32]:
Such a mystery.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:36]:
Thanks.

Walker Bird [00:39:37]:
Anyway. Sorry.

Theresa Hubbard [00:39:38]:
I've done a lot of things you get around. And. And they had a place at the lake, and so I would get invited to go to the lake. And it was a huge home they had built on their own. But whenever we went, we had to do work. There was some work that we were doing, so we were always doing work. But it was nice, you know, it was also. Again, I don't know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:05]:
It's so interesting, you know, talking about it out loud. I'm just thinking I had a lot of opportunities through friends for my world to be bigger than what my parents had the time or money, you know, to provide. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That. You know, one that I hung out with most. I mean, it was mostly high school, I think. I. Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:32]:
She exposed me to a lot of things that I would never have been exposed to. Yeah. Mostly good. I mean, it was mostly good. She's also the one that taught me how to drive, Right? Yeah. Yeah. And I. Pretty.

Theresa Hubbard [00:40:45]:
Actually, both of those friends are the ones that taught me how to drive, so. Interesting. They're both. One was one year older than me, and one was two years older than me. But I did take my driving test in one of their cars. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:40:59]:
Wow.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:00]:
Yeah. But it's also. One of them had a Jeep, and that's where I learned to drive a stick. And then one of them had an automatic, and that was the one I took my test in.

Walker Bird [00:41:09]:
I learned to drive a stick in a Jeep, too.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:11]:
Oh, yes, you did. Yeah. Yeah. Friendships are interesting. I mean, just to go back and think about it that, you know, the things that you remember.

Walker Bird [00:41:25]:
Right.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:25]:
That you have forgotten.

Walker Bird [00:41:27]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:41:27]:
You know, but the things that also, you know, impacted your life. Yeah. I think there's a lot of positives, you know, that I had from those friendships. They just were not ones that continued in quite the same way, you know, as I aged. But again, I think that was some, like, I just didn't understand friendships. I just didn't have it demonstrated. And so just interesting to think about. What are you thinking?

Walker Bird [00:42:10]:
I don't know, some wistful thoughts about people from the past, you know, that's what's going on.

Theresa Hubbard [00:42:21]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:42:22]:
Yeah. And, you know, I don't know, it's just like. It's important for us to have people outside of our relationship. Right. And I. There's not that you have at least one. I think you've got several. But in any event, I do, you know, and my best friend, outside of family and you.

Walker Bird [00:43:09]:
He would do anything for me, but he can't hold a conversation around emotion very well, you know, so there's like, there's. There's boundaries. And I'm not, you know, I don't need to cry in some. Someone's arms or anything like that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:43:26]:
Just mine, you know.

Walker Bird [00:43:27]:
Yeah. Sometimes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:43:36]:
Anytime, babe.

Walker Bird [00:43:37]:
Yeah. And I don't know what I'm trying to say about it. It's just like, you know, I would like some more people that I actually do some things with, you know, to get out, but I. There's not a whole lot of spare time, really. I mean, I guess I could make it.

Theresa Hubbard [00:43:55]:
So interesting.

Walker Bird [00:43:57]:
I don't know, you know, but I work by myself, paralegals remote. So I'm alone in my office every day. And it's been that way for years, basically. And so it's not. And I don't have. There aren't, you know, common attorneys or anything to, you know, shoot the breeze or, you know, whatever across the hall, that sort of thing. I just. That's not my office, you know, and so I.

Walker Bird [00:44:24]:
If I want that, I've got to engage in activities and make the bid, you know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:44:31]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:44:31]:
It's interesting. The last retreat that I went on, this guy that I met, he ended up leaving after the second day. Something happened back home. He had to go. But there were a lot of, you know, similarities of past experience and Just there was just, you know, there was that. That feeling, hey, we could be actually friends, you know, people that zoom call and that sort of thing and talk about relationships and experiences and things like that. But, you know, I have followed up. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:45:04]:
And he left. And so we didn't, you know, didn't continue that way. And so I'm a little bit hesitant. It's just like, so do I reach out, you know, so it's just funny. I think we, you know, in some ways I've become insular. I do my thing.

Theresa Hubbard [00:45:20]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:45:21]:
And if I'm not doing things with you, then, you know, I may go on a hike. I may, you know, do some things like that. But I'm not out in a, you know, athletic club or a rowing club or a sailing club or whatever it is that you do to engage in mutually enjoyable activities with people.

Theresa Hubbard [00:45:45]:
It's so funny because I'm thinking my mutual enjoyable activity with people would just be talking about what's really going on in our lives. I mean, when I, like, go through the list of people that I spend time with like that, you know, that's what we're doing. I mean, I mean, it doesn't matter if it's someone I met on retreat, you know, like if it's Kim or Carrie or, you know, Nancy or Patty or Melissa or Marlene or, you know, like, I think about like, all those people, like when we are. When we are spending time together, we are sharing our lives.

Walker Bird [00:46:25]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:46:26]:
Yeah. We are not doing activities. Isn't that funny? But it's just not. I guess it's just not how I formed friendships.

Walker Bird [00:46:34]:
I don't know. I mean, it just. To me, it's like there's not usually on retreat, there's not a big male presence. I don't know. This interesting part of this conversation, you know, for me at this point is how do I. It seems like activity based is the way that I would meet people that I might want to be friends with and then we would have something in common that the rest could build from, you know, because I don't think I invite a dude over to dinner and all of a sudden we're talking about our feelings.

Theresa Hubbard [00:47:09]:
We're not. I, Chi Woo would.

Walker Bird [00:47:14]:
Chiwu would.

Theresa Hubbard [00:47:15]:
John Parker would.

Walker Bird [00:47:18]:
With you around, he might.

Theresa Hubbard [00:47:20]:
No, I think he. I think he think it would be good. I think he would love that with you.

Walker Bird [00:47:25]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:47:26]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:47:27]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:47:27]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:47:29]:
I don't know. I mean, this is interesting. It's kind of a. I don't know. It's interesting. Is that a gender bias?

Theresa Hubbard [00:47:39]:
I don't know.

Walker Bird [00:47:40]:
Oh, my gosh. Shadow. Everybody out there is probably like. Yeah, that's right. You know, talk about how vulnerable you are, but you think you gotta have an activity before you can talk with dudes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:47:56]:
Yeah. Fascinating.

Walker Bird [00:48:01]:
Yeah, I. I'll have to work on that. But I guess, you know, there's still a little bit of a macho thing there, I guess. Fascinating.

Theresa Hubbard [00:48:10]:
Is it macho or is it just unfamiliar that you just haven't had that and so it's not something you've practiced?

Walker Bird [00:48:21]:
Yeah, I think it's a little macho.

Theresa Hubbard [00:48:25]:
Really?

Walker Bird [00:48:26]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:48:27]:
Tell me more. I know. I want to know.

Walker Bird [00:48:30]:
No, I mean, part of my identity used to be. I mean, it wasn't like, you know, hey, shirt unbuttoned down, you know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:48:40]:
Yes.

Walker Bird [00:48:41]:
When we say macho, you know, that vision can come to mind, but, you know, like a manly man, you know?

Theresa Hubbard [00:48:49]:
Okay, what were you gonna say?

Walker Bird [00:49:03]:
I think I better stop talk. Break time.

Theresa Hubbard [00:49:10]:
I literally was like, I don't know. Maybe he should stop talking.

Walker Bird [00:49:14]:
Why'd you keep asking me questions?

Theresa Hubbard [00:49:19]:
No, I'm really very curious about the macho statement. I mean, I'm really, truthfully, I want to understand what you. What. When you say that. I mean, it does surprise me. And so I think. What is. What are you talking about?

Walker Bird [00:49:35]:
The Persona that I had in college was athletic.

Theresa Hubbard [00:49:40]:
Okay.

Walker Bird [00:49:40]:
You know.

Theresa Hubbard [00:49:41]:
Okay.

Walker Bird [00:49:43]:
Very judgmental.

Theresa Hubbard [00:49:48]:
Okay.

Walker Bird [00:49:48]:
The world was right and wrong, you know, and I was right, you know, and so when I say manly man, you know, it's. It's that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:50:00]:
The role you were playing.

Walker Bird [00:50:01]:
Yeah. You know, I can be kind, but you're not going to see vulnerability.

Theresa Hubbard [00:50:07]:
So what you were taught. Okay.

Walker Bird [00:50:09]:
You know, that sort of thing.

Theresa Hubbard [00:50:11]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:50:11]:
And that, you know, the part I was talking about earlier, which is the growth in recognizing. And I don't have to be that way, but obviously there's still vestiges of it which may be standing in the way of me, you know, Engaging.

Theresa Hubbard [00:50:26]:
Yeah, maybe so.

Walker Bird [00:50:27]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:50:28]:
Yeah, maybe. Because we're still carrying the story of what is familiar to us as opposed to what actually is what we want in our life.

Walker Bird [00:50:41]:
Well, sure. And there's. I mean, it's not just that. The underlying. That is the abandonment stuff that I have, you know, and also some of the failures in friendship, like the one I was talking about that I terminated.

Theresa Hubbard [00:50:52]:
Excuse me. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:50:54]:
He was my best friend, you know, and it's still. That still hurts. And so I think there's like a fear of choosing wrong, you know, that I may choose somebody that's abusive you know, didn't. Abusive being in the way of, you know, there's just subtle put downs that, you know, always like a pecking order thing was what was going on in that other relationship. And so like this guy that I met on retreat, you know, that was in the back of my mind as I was recognizing, hey, we have similarities here, et cetera, but that piece was there in my mind. But that's part of that is the observer, which is, you know, and then part of it also is the, you know, the underlying inner child that's afraid of being hurt.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:42]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:51:42]:
Right. Well, this person, somebody that I can get to know and, and this is a good thing. Or is this shared trauma.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:49]:
Sure.

Walker Bird [00:51:49]:
You know, that create. Can create a strong but temporary bond.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:55]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:51:55]:
And can have false bond.

Theresa Hubbard [00:51:56]:
Right.

Walker Bird [00:51:58]:
I think that's what happened with people. Several people from the trial orders college.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:03]:
Right. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:52:05]:
So there's just, there's a lot going on. So it's not as simple as just saying, you know, I have a macho complex when it comes to guys.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:14]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:52:17]:
Because, you know, I'm not afraid to say it. And we've got had male viewers.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:21]:
Right, Right.

Walker Bird [00:52:22]:
There's men that come to the retreats too. And so I haven't had a problem doing that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:27]:
No.

Walker Bird [00:52:28]:
Didn't have a problem at the trial or college either.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:30]:
No.

Walker Bird [00:52:31]:
But outside of those settings, I think that there's a piece of that.

Theresa Hubbard [00:52:38]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's just interesting. I mean, I, I, I mean, I laugh about it because to me it's not macho. It's just the role you were taught. And stepping into relationship with men outside that role is just unfamiliar, that's all. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:52:59]:
Don't see my muscles.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:03]:
You're so funny. You're a nut. Anyway, no, it's an interesting conversation. I mean, I'm glad we had it. I mean, it brings a lot of things to mind. Just more intentionality. You know, I just think about, man, there's just so, there's just so many people in my life that I just love. Mm.

Theresa Hubbard [00:53:41]:
Yeah. You know, and whether there's somebody that I met, you know, at yoga, clients, people on retreat. And so I guess maybe my kids have seen me have a lot of friendships. It's just not something that I have ever thought about as an adult because I think I felt so out of place when I was younger that I just didn't feel like I ever really had friends. But I don't know that that's true. I think it's just a story that I'm carrying too yeah. Because I do. When I sit here and I, like, think of all those people, there's so many people, you know, that I love and care for.

Theresa Hubbard [00:54:39]:
You know, Mandy and Michaela and Angie and Tara. I mean, there's just so many people that have come into our lives, you know, Jill. I mean, just so many who, you know, are lovely. Yeah. Yeah. And we enjoy, you know, spending time with and, you know, it's interesting, you know, again, just thinking, man, it's a really big list, and I guess I feel really blessed.

Walker Bird [00:55:07]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:08]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:55:09]:
Well, before we finish, I mean, I just want to say this. One thing that I know about you is you're really good at creating connection. And it's just like you're unafraid. If we're going to some city and there's somebody there that you are an acquaintance with, or even if you're not.

Theresa Hubbard [00:55:26]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:55:26]:
You will invite them to dinner. And it's, you know, I. I'm in awe. You know, I mean, it's how. How you can create that. And I just. It's not something that's been in my experience. And there's just, you know, that young part of me that is afraid of being rejected by reaching out to people like that, or you get engaged, and all of a sudden it's weird, you know, and you're just like, whatever, let's do it.

Walker Bird [00:56:00]:
So it's better. I want to thank you. That has been a really nice experience. And so I also get to experience because you, you know, are putting yourself out there like that, that I get to come along. Because all the people that you're talking about, I love.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:21]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:56:21]:
And. And enjoy. You know, it's just makes me smile when you say their names.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:27]:
Thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's funny. It's just not something that I think about. About myself. It's just something that I do.

Walker Bird [00:56:36]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:56:37]:
And so having the conversation has been really helpful because I think even, you know, when we met Patty in Oregon. Patty. Right. Like, we were in the art store, and you were like, I want to have her on the podcast. And I was like, okay. And reached out.

Walker Bird [00:56:53]:
You notice I turned it over to you. Yeah. Like, we should have her on the podcast. But I knew that you would do it. I wasn't going to.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:01]:
You weren't going to. Right. So I did, and we did, and it was lovely. And then when we went over, we had dinner at her house, and she made us dinner and apple pie, and it was lovely. Showed us all of her art, so.

Walker Bird [00:57:16]:
Amazing art room.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:17]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:57:18]:
Her studio.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:19]:
Yeah. Yeah, it was so nice. Well, and it's nice, too, you know, because that connection has led to where you guys, you know, you and she are going to be working on a.

Walker Bird [00:57:27]:
Project, and I did. You know, I've got to say, I'm proud of myself for sending the email saying, hey, would you like to collaborate? I can write and you can paint and draw.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:36]:
And she said, yes.

Walker Bird [00:57:37]:
And she said yes.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:38]:
Yes.

Walker Bird [00:57:39]:
So now I need to follow up and not let it wither on the vine.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:42]:
Right, right. She's interested. Yeah, I do love that. You know, I'm thinking we're. We know we're going to Phoenix for a class on Friday, and I was thinking we need to reach out to John and Christine and see if they can have dinner on Friday night. Yeah. But it's just. Yeah, yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [00:57:58]:
It's just interesting. Again, not something that I think about. It's just something that I do, so. And I guess I'm really glad I do it, because I think we know so many really amazing people.

Walker Bird [00:58:10]:
Well. And if. If you weren't there, I wouldn't know any of them. I mean, I just. I. You know, and I'm. I can't be alone in this. Right.

Walker Bird [00:58:20]:
I mean, there has to be.

Theresa Hubbard [00:58:21]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:58:22]:
A common experience with, you know, a variety of people that become, you know, insular. You know, I do. My daughter's raised and gone, you know, and I go to work and then I do my thing, you know, versus. Hey, you want to go to dinner on Friday night?

Theresa Hubbard [00:58:43]:
Maybe I should turn it all over to you.

Walker Bird [00:58:49]:
You might be doing stuff with me, just the two of us. Yeah. I don't know. It would probably be a. A growing experience for me. Well, just to develop that as, you know, a part. I mean, I think it's really important for us to do things alone together.

Theresa Hubbard [00:59:07]:
Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:59:08]:
Yeah. Just because that's important for our romantic relationship. Right. And I mean, just talking about it doesn't matter what we're doing, just the adventures that we do.

Theresa Hubbard [00:59:20]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Walker Bird [00:59:21]:
The next two weeks, go to the beach, you know, whatever. Maybe go on retreat, though. All the stuff that we do. But also doing things with other people is really good, too, either as couples or separate.

Theresa Hubbard [00:59:37]:
Yeah. I think you're making that a goal for yourself. Yeah. And it's really nice. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's really nice. Yeah. Always an opportunity to see ourselves more clearly, to recognize the story that we really are living, not the one that we imagine in our mind.

Theresa Hubbard [01:00:03]:
Because where I started in the beginning of this podcast versus where I am now, is not the same place.

Walker Bird [01:00:10]:
Tell me more.

Theresa Hubbard [01:00:11]:
Yeah, just again, thinking about that, you know, just not feeling like I have many friends. But really that's just an old story and an old definition. Yeah. It's not true.

Walker Bird [01:00:25]:
Yeah.

Theresa Hubbard [01:00:26]:
It's just, you know, the vestiges of past loneliness. Right. And feeling and, you know, not ever really that I fit anywhere. So. Yeah.

Walker Bird [01:00:41]:
Well, thank you for sharing.

Theresa Hubbard [01:00:43]:
Thank you. Thanks. Always good always to have these conversations with you, babe. I love you.

Walker Bird [01:00:49]:
Love you, too. If you've been wishing for deeper trust and authenticity in your relationships, looking for better communication skills with your partner, we hope that you'll join us for our latest course, 10 essential skills to building stronger and healthier relationships.

Theresa Hubbard [01:01:04]:
Yeah. Everything that Walker and I do is something that we put energy into creating it thoughtfully and intentionally. We're very curious about what might be most helpful for people in building healthier skills in a relationship. We recognize it's something that we all need to practice time and time again and know that we're not just talking about intimate partners in this course. We're talking about family, coworkers, friends. We really want to walk through this process of building healthier relationship in all areas of our life. And we hope that you consider joining us. Enrollment opens February 1st.

Theresa Hubbard [01:01:49]:
Launching March 20th, first day of spring and the first day of our retreat.

Walker Bird [01:01:54]:
Yeah. Yeah, we'll see you there.

Theresa Hubbard [01:01:56]:
Thank you. Thank you for joining us today. We are excited to explore life with you. We encourage curiosity, self growth, and we strive to be more compassionate every day.